By Allison Kugel
Sitting among carved mahogany wood paneled accents and with displayed awards gathered from an unrivaled multi-hyphenate career, Master P began our conversation by allowing me to take the floor. Not surprisingly, he is a master delegator with a brilliant sense of when to shoot the ball and when to pass it. One of the greatest minds to emerge from the 1990s hip hop pantheon, Percy “Master P” Miller transcended a childhood of poverty in New Orleans’ Calliope Projects, to become a beacon of generational wealth, diversified business interests, and ownership in an industry once notorious for exploiting its artists. From music, movies and real estate, to the food and automotive industries, his portfolio continues to grow. A true gentleman who prefers to remain above the fray of controversy and relishes sharing the spotlight with those around him, Master P’s example and mentorship has guided artists from Snoop Dogg, Lil’ Wayne, and 2 Chainz, to his eldest son, rapper, actor and entrepreneur, Romeo Miller. Master P understood the power of ownership long before Instagram and the age of celebrity branding. Romeo Miller credits his father’s example as the driving force in his own life. He tells me, “Growing up watching one of the best and most powerful businessmen to ever do it guided me to be the man I am today. And according to Romeo, his father’s lessons went well beyond material success. “The biggest lesson I learned from him was to simply be a good person. Owning a business and brand doesn’t matter if you aren’t giving back.” Master P’s latest project is the upcoming film, #Unknown, a creative collaboration with his son and co-executive producer, Romeo Miller; and the film’s producer, writer and director, LazRael Lison. Lison describes the film as, “a mystery thriller that gets pretty intense, and great for this Halloween season.” Master P plays the mayor of a town in a string of alleged unsolved murders, as a local novelist abandons his second book to attempt to solve the mystery of these crimes; his own life unraveling in the process. When it comes to directing the man who is used to calling the shots, LazRael Lison sings his praises, recalling, “Master P went over and beyond,” adding, “it’s always so cool when you can see the Executive Producer also be a student. As a businessman, P wears so many hats and that requires flexibility. As a director I’m always flexible in a sense that I can write it on paper, but when you give a soul to that character, it’s all you. Watching P bring [this role] to life, when people see him, they’ll think, ‘Wow, I really enjoyed that!’” Allison Kugel: What are the top three things that have shaped the person you are today? Master P: I would first say God, my kids, my family, and just being able to be blessed. Allison Kugel: But is there anything in your life that was a turning point, that completely transformed you? Master P: I started realizing that we don’t have to dwell on our past, that it’s okay to move forward; it’s okay to better yourself. It’s ok to have faith. Nobody is perfect. That’s what it was for me. I feel like once I started having kids, I realized I have more to live for and I wanted to be around to watch them grow up, so I had to start making the right choices. And I want other people to say, “If P can do it, I can do it. It’s okay to better yourself.” One thing my grandfather always told me was, “If you want to better yourself and you want to live longer, mind your business and stay out of other people’s business.” Allison Kugel: Growing up where you did, what gave you the power of belief that you could become everything you ultimately became? Master P: It was my grandfather, but it was also knowing if you don’t have anything, you can still make the best out of what you have. I think a lot of people don’t realize that just having life, even with what we are going through now, through this pandemic, you never know when somebody is going to walk out that door and you’re never going to see them again. When you live in poverty, you know the only way is up. That’s what pushed me and motivated me, and I think we shouldn’t want to be around people that hold us back. Even in poverty, I started realizing that if I’m going to be successful, I have to cut the negative people around me off. Everybody has 24 hours. A lot of people are mad at other people and judging what other people have. That hate ends up being more important than the positive. It becomes more important than you making it out or bettering yourself. So, I started celebrating people. When I was living in poverty, I started looking at other people who had a nice car or a nice house, and I started being happy for them. When you can be happy for somebody else’s success, blessings will start coming to you. Everybody wants to get to the bag, but you are never going to get to the bag being negative, envious, and jealous. Pride took the devil out of heaven, and he took three fourths of the angels with him. We have to stop that pride, put that to the side and say, “Let me invest my time into something positive, and into me being a better person.” 
Allison Kugel: You started off as a basketball player. Was music your Plan B?
Master P: I was good at music, but I didn’t know I was that good until I actually got into it when I got [injured]. You might think you’re going in one direction, but God will put you in another direction. When I got hurt playing basketball in college, I felt like I had failed everybody in my family. I was supposed to go to the pros, and I’m thinking I’m on my way and I’m about to take care of my family and get them out of the ghetto. But then I got hurt. I always tell people, let your failures take you to the next level and let your failures make you great. I remember my grandfather saying, “Look son, don’t sit around here and just keep worrying about what happened. You gotta go make something else happen.” I had to find something else that I loved, and God opened up a bigger door. Most of my friends that played basketball at the time I played didn’t make that much money in the NBA, and what I was able to do [with music] was just unheard of. And I could have easily just been in the music business, but I went to college and educated myself. Without the right education, I don’t think my mindset would have been the way it is today, and the way I was thinking about business. Allison Kugel: Everybody I asked about you said the same thing, that you were never owned by a record label; you’ve always owned your own music. Was that also part of the plan? Master P: It happened with my grandfather. He was in the war, and when he came back home, they were supposed to give him ten thousand dollars to buy a house, and they never gave it to him. He always said, “Grandson, you need to start your own business. Start your own army.” That’s where No Limit (the name of Miller’s record label and production company) came from. My grandfather instilled that in me; “You’re not going to make it in their system. We have to create our own.” I always went against the grain. I knew I couldn’t just work for a paycheck, because I was living in the projects with sixteen people in a three-bedroom apartment. I had so many people and so many mouths to feed, and I couldn’t do that with a regular paycheck. I had to own it, and I’ve always kept that mentality, to where, when you look at African Americans and Latinos, we don’t own anything. My mindset was to change that narrative, to be able to own my own masters, to be able to build other executives. That’s where education and knowledge come in. We search and seek and pray for money, but we don’t search and seek and pray for knowledge and information. That’s what’s going to get us to our destiny. Allison Kugel: Yes! I love that you said that. I pray every night with my son, and we never ask for things. We say, “Thank You,” and we pray for wisdom, knowledge clarity, health, and so on. Gratitude is what attracts things to you. Master P: When you bless others, blessings will come. My most important job is to be a servant. It’s not about being a boss. It’s about being a servant and being able to serve my community, to serve underprivileged kids, being able to serve the elderly, and being able to educate the next generation. Allison Kugel: Early on in your music career, you were Tupac Shakur’s opening act. What was that like? Master P: It was crazy, because everyone was there to see Tupac. They didn’t care about me (laugh). I was happy to have just one person [in the crowd] jump up. One guy was just going crazy for me in the audience. And being on the road with Tupac, I said, “I’m going to turn that one fan into millions.” To then be able to sell 100 million records is just incredible. Knowing that if you believe in something… and you don’t have to be the best, because I wasn’t the best at first. I had to get into the studio and work hard. I was living on the West Coast, and I had this Southern slur in how I talked, so I had to become better. They say the best way to do that is to stay in the gym, which was the studio. I wasn’t afraid to outwork everybody. I outworked those guys. While Tupac and all those guys were partying, playing, and just having fun on the road, I was in the studio working. I said, “While they sleep, I’m going to be working.” Allison Kugel: What did Tupac think of your music? Master P: At first, he didn’t understand it. Then they started seeing as we are getting into some of the southern markets, how people were gravitating to my music. They started listening and saying, “This is alright.” In the end, Tupac really started liking my music, and that was a blessing, because he was the biggest star in the world of hip hop at the time. To have him jamming to my music, I knew I was on my way. 
Allison Kugel: Considering history and what happened to him and Biggie, what are your thoughts on the feuds going on now, like with Kanye West and Drake. Kanye posted Drake’s home address on social media, and Drake’s fans vandalized Kanye’s childhood home. Things start becoming public and crossing the lines of safety.
Master P: I don’t think people realize they have all of these fans that might even be crazy and take things into their own hands. We have to watch what we do. There’s a lot of selfish people out in the world, and there are a lot of snakes in this world. I think when you are at this level and you are making this type of money, even with some of these young artists that were losing their lives in hip hop, which is sad, we have to be thankful and take this as a blessing and grow. I think it’s the people around them. You have to have people giving you better advice, and you have to hold yourself accountable. I’ve always had self-accountability. And start thinking about what you say or what you do, and how it effects and hurts other people, and how you wouldn’t want that to be happening to you and your family. A lot of this is self-hate. I would rather sit in the sewer and eat cheese with rats than sit at a nice restaurant and drink champagne and eat lobster and steak with a snake, and I think that’s what a lot of us are doing. When you get to that level of the game like some of these artists, why lose what you have? Once you get killed or go to jail there’s no turning back. Allison Kugel: If you could travel back in time and alter any famous historical event, where would you go and what would you attempt to change? Master P: The Martin Luther King shooting. I feel he left too soon. I feel like that guy was on to something incredible. I have so much respect for him, and sometimes I imagine what would have happened if somebody had told him not to go to that hotel. He didn’t have that much security with him, and it just didn’t seem right. I feel like we just had so much more to learn from him. This guy was nonviolent, and he wanted to bring people together: blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos… I’ve never seen a person like that. I’m not saying he was perfect, because nobody is perfect, but it’s what he stood for when he brought people together. It’s the reason why we are able to have our freedom today and be able to work with each other, and not be judged by color. I think that is what I would want to be a part of. Allison Kugel: Wow! Master P: He was a dreamer, so being able to have somebody dream like that is incredible. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Percy Robert Miller to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach? Master P: I came into this world to be a student of the world. I’m constantly learning every day and getting better, and I also realize I came into this world to be a father to my kids. When I use the word “father,” it’s different from being a daddy. I have a lifetime commitment to my kids, and as a single dad you have to stay focused on your kids. My kids mean everything to me. Allison Kugel: How many kids do you have? Master P: Altogether, I have nine. Allison Kugel: No way (laugh)! Damn, okay! Master P: I don’t drink or smoke so (laugh)… Allison Kugel: (Laughs) That’s a much better hobby. That’s funny. What is your philosophy for raising happy, well-adjusted kids? Master P: You have to deal with [each kid] as their own individual. Some kids you have to scream at, some kids you have to talk to softly, and some kids, you have to take them to the side and nourish them. I think basketball prepared me to be a father. When you are on the court with certain people, it’s all these different personalities and it’s the same way with raising kids. Some kids want a lot of your attention, and some kids want to go off and do their own thing, so you have to know that and be prepared to sacrifice. My life is not about me anymore. I’ll do anything for them, and I think a lot of parents are not prepared for that. They still want to go off and live their best life, but if you have kids, you don’t get a chance to do that anymore. Allison Kugel: One hundred percent. What’s something you have yet to master? Master P: I have yet to master technology. It just keeps changing. Every time you think, “I got this,” something else new is coming out, which is a good thing. We are growing and constantly getting better. In a couple of years, we are supposed to be flying in automobiles. It doesn’t even seem right, but you know it’s going to happen. 
Allison Kugel: I read in Black Enterprise that you’re backing the launch of a new car called Trion SuperCars (trionsupercars.com).
Master P: I didn’t create the car. It is actually a guy that has been working on building this car for a while, and I was able to get behind the project. It’s great to have a guy who’s been working with so many other car companies (including Tesla) create this supercar, and me being a part of helping him market and promote that. That’s what it’s all about for me, to be able to help people like that and bring their dreams to life, so it’s a blessing. Allison Kugel: What makes it a supercar? Master P: What he is creating and the technology, and that he knows about building cars. What makes it a “supercar” is that it’s able to compete with all the other supercars out there and has just as much technology. (In a recent statement, Miller dubs Trion SuperCar “the first black-owned supercar manufacturer in America.” He credits the soon-to-be-launched car company with “adding diversity to the automotive industry, which will offer a high-end line of models and a line of affordable luxury vehicles.” Miller calls the fledgling automotive company, “history in the making.”) Allison Kugel: When will Trion SuperCars hit the market? Master P: I think in two years. I can’t wait until it’s done! Allison Kugel: What is still on your bucket list? Master P: Being able to put together a superhero movie that is owned by us, and not by Hollywood. When you look at Black Panther, that movie made more than a billion dollars, but it wasn’t owned by us. It looked like us. I want to change that narrative. That is a real bucket list item of mine. Allison Kugel: You don’t think the success of Black Panther made big budget, studio backed movies with an all-black cast that much more marketable and in-demand? Master P: See, but think about this, right… after the movie was over, we went back home, and nobody really benefited. Chadwick Boseman, his salary was $500,000, and he ended up making maybe two or three million dollars from a billion-dollar movie. Robert Downey Jr. makes $70 million when he does Iron Man, and [Black Panther] was way bigger. I’m just saying, to be able to put money back into our culture and into our community off of our own work, I think that is a game changer. Allison Kugel: Your hand is in so many different things these days, and your movie #Unknown will be released next month. What is it about acting that appeals to you? Master P: When you get to a certain level, you want to bring projects to life. For me, it is almost like being two different people. I can go be a businessman on this side and come back and utilize my acting skills and my fanbase, and just feeding them. It’s connecting to the audience and letting people see me in different ways. In this movie I play the mayor, and it’s a suspense thriller. It’s about being able to let people see me in different ways. In my next movies, I want to go beyond what you think you would see me doing in a movie. I’m even thinking about, like how Arnold Schwarzenegger played his role in Kindergarten Cop. I want to do a movie like that, set in an elementary school, playing a teacher or a principal. It’s fun to be able to portray other people and to bring a character to life. Allison Kugel: Tell me about the plot of this movie. Master P: #Unknown is a suspense thriller, but it’s also about a relationship and about trust and faith in somebody. The main character, his girl doesn’t believe him about what is going on with all these murders that happened years ago in this town. The movie has a great plot to it, but at the same time, throughout the story your mind is constantly trying to figure out what’s true, and did this happen, and when did it happen? I think it’s also about a couple trying to figure out if they can trust each other. Is this guy who he says he is? This film asks the question: in life, do you really believe in the person you are with? Allison Kugel: And do you ever really know somebody? Master P: Exactly, that’s what it is. That’s the unknown. Allison Kugel: You’re used to being the boss, and on a movie set, when you are playing a character and you are working with someone like filmmaker LazRael Lison, who produced, wrote, and directed this film, are you good at taking direction from someone else? Master P: It’s all about being a team player. When you are making a film, you have to know that we are working together to bring something to life, so it is never about me. I learned that from playing sports, there is no “I” in team. We had a great group of people, and everybody was professional, and everybody did their job. When I get on a movie set it is not about me being a boss or an executive producer. If I’m an actor, I have to play my role and you have to let the director play his role, and everybody else in the cast has to play their role if we are going to win. To be a good teacher, you have to be a good student. I’m constantly learning how to get better. I know I’m on my way to doing some great things and bringing some great projects to life, because I want to keep getting better and you have to put in the work. Even when you look at somebody like a Samuel Jackson, he didn’t get stronger in his game until he was older. This is about growing for me. I don’t compare this to my music or my business or anything else I’ve done. I take acting seriously, because I want to constantly keep growing and getting better. Allison Kugel: So many films are now being released, simultaneously, in theatres and on streaming services, because of this pandemic. It’s re-shaping the entire movie industry. What are your thoughts? Master P: I think it’s great, because people are able to enjoy these movies and get a chance to see it when they want to see it. Streaming is so important, and we are focusing on that. You’ll be able to go to Amazon Prime to see this movie, #Unknown, and it’s incredible. It’s the new way, and a lot of people want to be safe during this pandemic, so this is a great way to put movies out now. Allison Kugel: Do you think a movie release can be as exciting of an event, and be profitable, when the majority of people elect to watch it at home instead of in the theatre? Master P: We’re going to have to adapt to the times. People have a choice. Some people still want to go to theatres and see films, but some people are more comfortable at home right now. This is about safety, right now. A lot of these movies are not going to make the money they normally would make, but when you look at the streaming right now, those numbers are about to start going up, so it’s just a new way. #Unknown, starring Master P, Judd Nelson, Tom Sizemore, Denise Boutte, and Hal Ozsan; and produced, written, and directed by LazRael Lison, premieres October 1st, exclusively on Amazon Prime. Follow Master P on Instagram @masterp and follow filmmaker LazRael Lison @lazrael_lison. Watch the trailer for #Unknown. Listen to the full conversation with Master P and filmmaker, LazRael Lison, on the Allison Interviews Podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at allisoninterviews.com.  By Allison Kugel Actor Leon cuts a slim and regal frame. Once upon a time, his soulful eyes, defined facial structure and silken voice compelled Madonna to cast him as the saintly figure come-to-life and racial martyr in her culturally provocative Like A Prayer video during MTV’s golden era. It was a career-making turn that made headlines around the world. Leon went on to play memorable roles on screen, from embattled former basketball great in 1994’s Above the Rim opposite the late Tupac Shakur to David Ruffin in 1998’s biopic about Motown legends The Temptations, and his critically acclaimed portrayal of Little Richard in the 2000 biopic about the eccentric late singer’s life. Other notable film roles include The Five Heartbeats, Cool Runnings, Waiting to Exhale, Ali, Cliffhanger, and Get Rich or Die Tryin’. The common thread throughout these films is Leon’s arresting and charismatic presence. It transforms even the quietest moment into something memorable that transcends years, and even decades. Next up is 2022’s A Day to Die opposite Bruce Willis. On the small screen Leon has starred in HBO’s Oz and Showtimes City on a Hill, and RHOA fans have caught glimpses of him with his daughter, Noelle Robinson, and her mother, former model, Cynthia Bailey. His recent BET projects include A Luv Tale and Games People Play. Allison Kugel: You’ve had so many iconic roles and appearances over the years, and you’ve played a part in some amazing pop culture history. The first thing I want to ask you about is waaay back in 1989 when you were Madonna’s male lead in the controversial music video for her song, Like A Prayer. How were you cast in the Like a Prayer video, first of all? Leon: My agent called me and said they were interested in seeing me for this music video with Madonna and I told them I wasn’t interested. Allison Kugel: Why? Leon: Well, why would I be at that time? I was in acting at the time, and I had just started doing studio movies. Allison Kugel: But you didn’t think at the time that MTV was this amazing platform, and Madonna was the top artist? Leon: No, I wasn’t thinking that way because I was a serious actor, and you didn’t see serious actors in music videos back then, dancing around. I thought, “If I’m in this music video with Madonna, I’ll be dancing around doing something like that. I didn’t really know, and at the time I’m trying to pick and choose and I’m trying to do something with my career. I didn’t think dancing around in a music video with Madonna was going to elevate it (laugh). That was my thinking. Then, maybe a week or two later they came back again and said to my agent, “Listen, Mary Lambert (the video’s director) would like to meet Leon.” Then my agent said that Mary Lambert was a feature film director. And she said, “You know, maybe something can come out of this meeting even if you don’t do the music video.” I went to meet her and there was nothing but women around everywhere. We hit it off, it was great, and then they wanted me to meet Madonna, and Madonna and I hit it off. Madonna walked in and said, “I don’t even know what to say, because everyone in the world is telling me that you’re the guy (laugh).” Allison Kugel: So, you’re on the set of the Like a Prayer video with Madonna, and you had to know this was going to be a controversial video, or that it would at least spark a major conversation about race and about religion. What were you thinking when you were making the video? Leon: First of, I have to tell you, one of the things that made me want to do the video when I was talking with Mary Lambert, and I said to her, “Well let me hear the song.” I heard the song, and I was thinking, “Wow, this song sounds like it’s going to be number one.” I then said, “Let me get this right. You want me to act?” She said, “Yes. I need you to play two different characters and I need an actor for this.” That’s when it clicked, and I got it. I said, “I’m going to be acting in the video, and Madonna will have me come to life and Madonna will adore me? Yeah, okay I got it. I can see me doing this (laughs). Allison Kugel: I get it now. Okay. So, they basically twisted your arm (laughs)… Leon: Things had to come together for me to see the vision, you know? When I’m on the set and I realize the level of production and how good this is going to be, all the metaphors in the video, I knew at that time that this was Madonna’s comeback, and this is a number one song. I know it would be the lead off story of every entertainment section. What I didn’t know is it would be the lead off story of everything; not just the entertainment sections, but the front of the newspapers and the first story on the news. Allison Kugel: It’s the late 80s and it sounds comical to say this now, but I remember news people discussing your interracial kiss with Madonna. That sounds so crazy now, right? But we’re going back over thirty years ago, and it was a big deal back then. Leon: Not to say it wasn’t a big deal, but I don’t think that the interracial kiss was that big of a deal. Allison Kugel: The burning crosses in the video? Leon: It was who she was kissing, and that he was Black. Allison Kugel: Tell me the difference… Leon: For one thing, most people believe that she is kissing Jesus and Jesus is being portrayed as a Black man. Allison Kugel: Ohhhhh, okay… Leon: That was where there was and is a much bigger controversy. She’s not just kissing a Black man. She’s kissing a Black Jesus. Even though he was just a Saint that came to life, people thought of him as Jesus, so that’s where the controversy really happened. There were so many metaphors, but probably none bigger than that. Allison Kugel: When you and Madonna were working together, shooting this video, did she say anything to you about how she thought it was going to be received, or was she just all into the artistry of it and that was it? Leon: Madonna was a lot of fun to be around, and we joked around a lot and did a few things together. She was cool. I think she was very much trusting of her team and the ultimate plan of what this video was supposed to be, and its visuals. I thought she looked great in the video, like an Italian movie star. I think that she was very locked into making her comeback at the time. The song was going to be that lead off thing that was going to kick it off, and it was everything she could have imagined and more. Allison Kugel: And everything old is new again, because you have the scenes in the video where you’re being wrongfully accused of attacking someone when you are leaning over, trying to help her, after the perpetrator, who happens to be white, runs away. Leon: Of course, and the thing is, the video is such a positive video if you are a religious person. What happens is, a woman (played by Madonna) sees a crime. She sees the wrong man accused, she went to church for guidance and the guidance she got from church and that experience from church, got her to do the right thing. Allison Kugel: Love it. Let’s talk about the movie, Above the Rim. So much of your role in that movie, and I think you talked about this with Vlad TV, but so much of your character Shep comes through your eyes, even more so than your dialogue. What is your technique and how do you get into an intense character like that? Leon: The character of Shep in Above the Rim was an interesting character because he was haunted. He was haunted by what happened to his friend Nutso on that roof and his whole life felt as though he was repenting, and he had to relive everything over and over again. Even when he played basketball by himself, it was like Nutso was there with him and he couldn’t let that go. He couldn’t shake it, so I think it’s very important to have people see that hurt and repenting in your eyes, even more so than any kind of dialogue.  Allison Kugel: How do you get there? Leon: I’m very much a method actor, so I would delve into a role and stay in that character until the movie was finished. I think it’s how someone holds their shoulders, the look in their eyes, you can always tell something about them. They’re hurting or something is wrong, and I thought that was very important for that character. Allison Kugel: You filmed Above the Rim in 1994 and you worked closely with Tupac Shakur in the film. You played brothers at odds. During that time when you were shooting that film in New York, was that at the same time Tupac was arrested for sexual abuse, going through his trial, when he got shot at Quad Studios? Was that all happening to him during filming? Leon: No, it wasn’t when he was shot at Quad Studios, but he had just shot at two off-duty police officers in Atlanta, and then he had some other court case going on, but I don’t know what that was. It could have been the rape charge, but I’m not sure. But the production got interrupted several times because of it. Allison Kugel: What was your feeling about it at the time? Leon: For me, I just never wanted to see a young talented brother hurt himself or not succeed. And that’s what I was seeing in Tupac. I liked him, and with me he was one hundred. I thought he was talented and had charisma, and everyone could see that, but his mind was on other things that were going to bring him down, and it was obvious. It hurt me to see that, because I wish he was here with us today. But everyone has their path. Everyone has to live their life the way they want to live it. That’s what I was seeing, just talent being wasted, is what I thought. Allison Kugel: Did you get along? What did you think of him as a man? As an artist? Leon: Like I said, he was one hundred with me, but he told me that from the beginning. He told me at the script reading. He said, “Listen, you’re not going to have a problem with me, because you’re in The Five Heartbeats.” That movie was so revered by everybody. You usually get your props right off the jump (laughs). Allison Kugel: When you play a real person, as you have when played both David Ruffin and Little Richard, do you feel stuck between not wanting to do an impression, but wanting to capture their essence? Leon: It’s tough. It depends on who you’re playing and what you’re playing. If you are playing a musical performer, you just have to ride that line of when you’re actually being that person, and when that person is going through something, and make it as real as possible. Once people buy into the fact that you are who you are, you can take them anywhere. You can take them into space. They’ll follow you anywhere once they believe you are that person. Allison Kugel: What’s been your favorite role, and why? Leon: My favorite role is your favorite role, because I don’t watch my movies. Allison Kugel: You’ve never watched them? Are you afraid to see yourself on camera? Leon: Of course, I’m going to see my work, but I don’t re-watch them. I’m not at home re-watching my own movies right now. I don’t do that. When they come out and there’s a screening, I’ll see it. Usually, I’m watching to see what the audience is thinking, because that is who I’m making the movie for. I’m not making it for me. I think that if I watched my work over and over again, I don’t know, maybe it would be good for me to do that, but I’m too critical. I start picking myself apart, wondering, “Why do I hold my face like that? What’s wrong with my lips?” I’m not into doing that. Allison Kugel: If you could travel through time and go back in time to alter a famous historical event, where would you go and what you attempt to change? Leon: When you say “event,” it’s tied to so many other things. It’s like, how do you say you don’t want this one thing to happen because it’s tied to so many other things that happened, and you think of all the things it caused that are positive or negative, because that one thing happened. And then you say, “I don’t know if I want that not to happen (laugh). You know what I’m saying? Allison Kugel: Yes, you’re saying it’s like pulling one thread and the whole thing comes apart. That’s a good point. Leon: Yes. It’s probably a lot easier with a sporting event, like, “Ah, I wish he had made that shot (laugh). Because then that’s it. Allison Kugel: Right (laugh), it’s not going to affect anything serious. Leon: That’s a hard question, and I don’t know if I can give you a proper answer for that. But I applaud you for asking me a question where I can’t do that, because I’m usually asked… Allison Kugel: The same old shit (laugh)… Leon: Same old shit or nothing I wouldn’t have an answer for, put it that way. Allison Kugel: What is the greatest lesson of your life, so far? Leon Robinson: One lesson that made me a better artist is an attorney telling me, years ago, that it’s not important about how much money you make. It’s the work you do that’s important, because when you are on the screen or on the stage, it doesn’t say “$1 million, $4 million, or $5 thousand dollars. All of your memories are your performances and your story lines, so what you want to concentrate on is doing memorable work. If you do memorable work, then it doesn’t matter how much money you made. Allison Kugel: Agreed. Leon: That’s always stuck with me, and it’s never been more prevalent than in this interview with you, because what are we taking about right now? We’re talking about work that was done decades ago that people are still fascinated with. I appreciate him telling me that, and it has always stuck with me. Allison Kugel: Do you pray? If so, who or what do you pray to? Leon: I pray, but most of my prayers are for other people or with other people, to be honest with you. I pray to a Being that is higher than me. Allison Kugel: Do you identify that Being by name, or you don’t want to go there because it’s not something you can define? Leon: I can tell you that my whole life I’ve been a Christian and a Catholic, but as I’ve grown older, I’ve learned more about the world and learned more about my spirituality and about other religions. For me, it’s more about spiritually and being connected to a higher being, and it doesn’t matter if you call that being God, Jah, or Mohamad or Jesus. It doesn’t matter. What does matter is how that Being, or spirit is affecting you in your life, and your life’s journey. You can call it whatever you want, but is it flowing through you? Is it affecting you as a person? Is it making you a better person? That is what really matters.  Allison Kugel: I’ve never watched The Real Housewife’s of Atlanta, though I did watch a few clips the other day, because your daughter is on the show, and I knew I’d be talking to you. Leon: Well that makes two of us. I’ve never watched it either. Allison Kugel: You have a very good co-parenting relationship with one of the stars of the show, Cynthia Bailey, as I do with my sons’ father. We’re really good friends, we love each other, we respect each other, we are awesome co-parents and people always think we’re together because we always go to our son’s things together. We’re friends and we’re family, and we care about each other. Leon: As you should. Allison Kugel: You have the same thing going on with your ex, Cynthia. Leon: I like to consider myself a commonsense negro, okay (laugh)? I do things that make sense to me. So, for me, the child comes first. We have a child together and that is something that will never change, and no matter how many women I may have had in my life, only one of them has given me a child. So, for me, she has the highest respect of anyone. Allison Kugel: Yes, exactly. She gave you the greatest gift. Leon: Right, and that is not going to change. We are a family through this child. We are always supposed to do what is best for one another and respect one another, but most of all, do what is best for the child, and the child needs to see two loving parents. Even if we are not together as a couple, we can still love and respect one another. That is what our daughter [Noelle] needs to see in order to grow up. Allison Kugel: I know, and it’s rare because people ask me all the time “How do you do it?” It’s easy. You just put your ego aside and put your child first. Leon: Put your childish ego aside. It’s very simple. If you are no longer with someone in a romantic way, then you guys know each other so well, you’re friends. You have a child together. Let’s just keep it moving. Other stuff takes up way too much energy and it’s wrong. Using the kid against one another, it’s just terrible. What do you get out of it, and what is your upside? I always look at things like that. What is the upside of this right here? How does this make things better for me, my child, and for her? It doesn’t, so why do it? Allison Kugel: What you are working on now? Leon: Right now, streaming on BET+ is A Luv Tale created by Sidra Smith, a provocative series about four women living and loving in Harlem. I’m also re-occurring on a BET show I think is airing again in September, called Games People Play. It was their number one show last year. And in February, I’m starring in a movie opposite Bruce Willis, Frank Grillo, and Kevin Dillon called A Day to Die. Very juicy role. Allison Kugel: What’s that about? Leon: It’s about a parole officer who, while protecting a parolee from another man, kills the other guy and the so the guy happens to work for a guy by the name of Pettis. And Pettis thinks that since you killed my man, you’re going to be owing me something, because he was worth something to me. He gives him 24 hours to come up with a certain amount of money, and he has to try to do it and figure out how he can do it. Pettis sends him a few reminders along the way, and the action is [explosive]. I play Pettis, a bit of a bad boy. Allison Kugel: When did you know you were an actor, and how did it happen for you? Leon: I was on a basketball scholarship at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, and a graduate film student chased me down on campus and begged me to be in his movie. I was like, “Why don’t you get someone in the Theatre Arts department? I’m sure they would love it (laugh).” He said, “No there is something about you man. I just feel like you’re going to be in the movies, and I want to be the first to put you in a movie.” Allison Kugel: No way! Leon: I was in his movie called The Photographer, and I felt very comfortable, just like when you talk to somebody for an hour and you feel like you’ve known them a lot longer than the hour you spent with them. That was how I felt on that movie set, so I changed my major and became a Drama major and studied acting. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Leon Robinson to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach? Leon: I came here to learn as much as I possibly can, and I came here to pass on the things that I learned to as many people as possible. Allison Kugel: Do you think you do that through your art? In your day-to-day life? Leon: I think I do it 24/7. Definitely through my art, because I have a way of reaching more people, but in my day-to-day life without a doubt. I’m always passing on whatever wisdom I have, and I’m always [taking] in as much as I can. Stream A Luv Tale: The Series on BET+ and Games People Play on BET. Follow Leon on Instagram @wwwjustleon, Twitter @justleon and justleon.com. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast, available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Follow on Instagram @theallisonkugel  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Tara Reid By Allison Kugel Tara Reid burst onto the scene as the flawless blue-eyed babe of the iconic 1999 camp comedy American Pie, a Fast Times at Ridgemont High for twenty-something Gen-Xers and precocious Millennials. Her flawless all-American looks led to films from cult favorite The Big Lebowski, to Urban Legend, Van Wilder, Josie and the Pussycats, Dr. T & the Women and My Boss’s Daughter. She starred and held her own alongside Ryan Reynolds, Ashton Kutcher, Rosario Dawson, Kate Hudson, Richard Gere and other movie heavyweights. And then, something happened. Reid was young, stunning and famous; and the media began taking more of an interest in her after-hours role as Hollywood’s resident party girl; largely ignoring her talent and her work ethic. Unlike most of us, Reid’s young adult days and nights were captured by paparazzi for the world to see. During our interview she is quick to point out that, at the very least, mercifully, social media had not yet been invented. Thank God for small favors. A painful public breakup with then-fiancé Carson Daly and a bout with botched plastic surgery further spun Reid’s public narrative out of control. She recently told E! news, “They almost make a cartoon character out of you, and they keep going with it," referring to the rampant tabloid journalism of the 2000s. The experience sent Reid reeling, and into a self-imposed media exile where she learned to reflect, regroup, and re-emerge focused on her craft, and with a healthy sense of humor as she displays in her willingness to embrace the camp genre with the Sharknado film series. In addition to working in front of the camera, she’s added film producer to her resume, with an upcoming slate of releases under her production banner, Hi Happy Films. As women in our forties, Tara Reid and I discuss the power of knowing oneself and becoming unflappable in the face of life’s inevitable ebbs and flows. Smart, soulful, and creative, Tara Reid has reclaimed her power and found her most valuable commodity: peace of mind. Allison Kugel: You were just working on a film with DMX before he passed. Tara Reid: Yeah, a movie called Doggmen. It’s his last film and it was really interesting, because he didn’t get to finish the whole film. They had to do what they did with Paul Walker (in his last Fast & Furious role). They make these facial sculptures and they put it on a face, and it looks exactly like [DMX]. It’s crazy. Allison Kugel: Like CGI? Tara Reid: No, it’s literally a face they make and put on. The last couple of scenes that he has to film, that will be what they are doing. It’s incredible and it looks so real. It looks just like him. So, that is how they are going to film his last scenes, and I’ll be in those scenes with him. Allison Kugel: What is that going to feel like for you, to do that? Tara Reid: I think everyone was absolutely broken by DMX’s [death]. He wasn’t just a great rapper, but he was a poet. I think he was one of the best rappers of our time, and this movie explains that. The last person that really did that was Tupac. I think it will be a great film. He’s a great actor, he’s a voice, and that mattered a lot to him. I think he will be really happy about how this movie comes out and looks. It’s DMX, and just to be a part of that history with him is pretty much incredible. Allison Kugel: When he was on set, did he seem healthy? Did he seem happy? Tara Reid: I never saw him on set. The movie started before I started working. I was due [on set]at the end of the movie. Then, unfortunately, that is when he passed. I actually never got to do the real scenes with him. Allison Kugel: Oh man! Tara Reid: I’m in the other scenes with the “not real” version of DMX. It’s going to be really interesting, and we are shooting that down in Florida. Allison Kugel: Oh, wow. I’ll definitely look forward to seeing how they manage to do that when it comes out. Tara Reid: I’ll let you come down to the set and you can see how they do it. Allison Kugel: What three events in your life, if you had to narrow it down to three, shaped who you are today? Tara Reid: Wow, that is a great question! Well, I guess one of them would be my parents making me, otherwise I wouldn’t be here, so congratulations on that one (laughs)! I think another one would be feeling the force of getting into Hollywood, which is the hardest thing to do, becoming a working actor. Allison Kugel: What do you mean by “the force?” Tara Reid: It’s so hard to make it in Hollywood to begin with. It’s like winning a lottery ticket. To be lucky and fortunate enough to get there was incredible, and then seeing the aftereffects, and everything like that. The third and most painful one was having my parents pass away. That gave me a whole different look on everything. Allison Kugel: Did it make you think about where they went when they passed? When my grandfather passed away when I was 32, the question that kept going through my mind was, “Where is he?” It started me on this journey of looking into life after death. Did you go through anything like that? Tara Reid: I would talk about that with my sister, about where we go after this. Honestly, the hardest part, you’re going to make me cry now… Allison Kugel: No, no, no... Tara Reid: It’s okay. The hardest part is not being able to call your parents up and ask, “Hey, how do I make this lasagna?” or “How do I make this or that?” They were such good cooks. There are so many things I wish they wrote down, like their recipes, or even just to call them on the phone. I feel like I see signs a lot. I definitely feel their energy around me, and it’s healing for me.  Allison Kugel: What was your biggest take away from 2020? Tara Reid: COVID was something that, obviously, we never expected, like the Black Plague. Allison Kugel: Yes, in our lifetime… Tara Reid: Never. From everyone staying home and not being able to go out or travel, to movies being cancelled, and even people being afraid of other people. A lot of fear was going on. But when I was in my house, I said, “You know what? I’m going to be proactive. I’m not going to sit here and just wait for COVID to come over, or for my industry to come back.” I started developing and producing projects for myself. We (Tara’s production company, Hi Happy Films) got in touch with a lot of amazing and creative people and got to put a lot of different projects together, from comedy to drama. We’ve got a pretty good slate coming up. Allison Kugel: What do you have coming up? Tara Reid: We are doing this one movie called Masha’s Mushroom (starring Reid, Vivica A. Fox, Beverly D’Angelo). The director, White Cross, she’s also my partner on that particular film, and she is absolutely brilliant. We got connected with such valuable people from financing to distribution, and I learned aspects of the business that I never knew before. I realized how hard it is to make a film come together and it gave me a completely different appreciation for the film business as a whole. Allison Kugel: You’re also working on a vegan handbag line… Tara Reid: I can’t say too much about it just yet, but it’s being done with a great handbag maker named Michael Kuluva. As far as the handbags, I can tell you they are not made of pleather, and it might be made out of vegetables and fruit, believe it or not. I know it sounds crazy. You would be shocked at how it’s made. Then, during this whole process, my boyfriend and I went down to Sedona, Arizona. My father told me, before he died, that he went there with his brother and it is very healing; it’s where the vortex (swirling centers of healing energy, where the earth is said to be “most alive”) is, and it’s very hippie and spiritual. We were supposed to stay four days and we wound up staying for four weeks. Allison Kugel: And that helped set the vibe for the bag designs… Tara Reid: You get it. The process is pretty incredible, and it’s not just us that’s doing it. I think Hermès is coming out with a bag made from mushroom “leather.” We are going to debut our line next year during Fashion Week, and there will be a lot of Arizona-inspired spiritual stuff on the bags. Allison Kugel: Speaking of that, do you pray? If so, who or what do you pray to? Tara Reid: I do pray, and who I pray to depends on what situation I am in. I pray to Jesus, but I also pray to my parents all the time. They are probably my number one. And I pray to my guardian angels; I pray to St. Jude, St. John, or St. Christopher. They have different meanings depending upon what you are in need of. I also listen to tapes by Deepak Chopra which has helped me tremendously. His tapes help you break down, “Who am I close to? Who am I? What do I want? What do I not want?” And you really have to write it out in a diary form. My life started changing. A lot of us don’t know how to direct that positive energy, and I think that he is someone that really knows how to give that to you. Allison Kugel: I’ve interviewed Deepak Chopra twice, and he was the first person who ever explained to me that there is no such thing as time. I was younger at that time, and I didn’t really get it, so he said, “Well, think about it. If you are in a rush or on a deadline, you feel like you’re running out of time. If you are bored or anxiously awaiting something, time feels like it is taking forever.” Then he said, “Time is really nothing more than the movement of thought.” It makes so much sense to realize that we are trapped in space and time, but you can step out of time and be completely in the moment. It is the most freeing and beautiful feeling there is. Tara Reid: I agree with you a billion percent. It really is like, “I’m running late for this meeting,” or, “I’m going crazy from this deadline.” Then you’re like, “Wait, I don’t have to get this or do this right now. I can wait half an hour and the world is not going to end.” Time is relevant in a situation like we’re in right now, how we have decided to meet at a certain time. But when it comes to yourself, you can create how you exist in time. When you put out a manifestation and put something great out there, you have to close a lot of doors to open up new ones. That is one of the things that Deepak Chopra teaches. I believe that is what you probably got out of it too. Allison Kugel: What was your favorite film role, and why? Tara Reid: This is actually a really good story. Last night I was with my boyfriend watching TV and as we were going through the channels, HBO came up and my boyfriend says, “Oh My God, this is crazy, you’re on TV.” I looked and it was Josie and The Pussycats. That has always been my favorite movie that I’ve ever done. It was so much fun. Rachael Leigh Cook is amazing. Rosario Dawson was amazing. We were shooting up in Canada, having fun doing a girl’s movie, and the whole movie was the best experience. I played Melody, and she was always happy, a little bit ditsy, but kind of psychic. It was great waking up every day, playing a happy girl. Allison Kugel: Have you forgiven the media for the way that they treated you years back, or do you still struggle with that? Tara Reid: That is a really good question. I didn’t, and I was upset about it when I was younger, but I realized the only way I was going to grow and get out of that situation was to grow as a woman. So therefore, I do forgive them now. I have moved on, and my press has changed. I’m not angry about it anymore. When you finally let something go, it goes. It’s like taking a balloon and putting it up in the air, and it’s gone. I’m 45 years old and I’m not a child anymore. I’m not the little girl from American Pie. A lot of things have changed in my life, and I wouldn’t take back anything, because again, it put me where I’m at right now. I probably would not be talking to you right this second if everything was different. You’re a positive person I feel like you’ve gone through a lot of what I have, and I really feel like I can relate to you. Would you change anything?  Allison Kugel: I would not change anything. I really am at a place of peace in my life right now. There has been a lot of bumps in the road and twists and turns but I really would not change anything.
Tara Reid: Of course, there are going to be bumps in the road. That’s life. No one ever said it was going to be perfect, but if we didn’t go through these bumps in the road, it would not define us as who we are. Allison Kugel: I find that my compassion and empathy muscles have grown, exponentially. Tara Reid: I think COVID really helped a lot of people with that. People had no choice, they had to be inside. So, what do you do? Call your best friends, call people you haven’t talked to in a while, forgive yourself for a lot of things, talk to yourself a lot, and make sense of some of the things that didn’t make sense. I think that is where you and I are. I am completely comfortable in my own skin right now, and I’m happy with where my life is going. Allison Kugel: Have any journalists ever apologized to you, whether it was a gossip columnist or tabloid reporter? Tara Reid: To be honest, not really (laughs). If that day ever comes, you are going to be the first person I call and say, “Guess who called me to apologize?” (laughs) But no, not yet. Allison Kugel: Is there a hobby or another profession that you would like to attempt? Tara Reid: I think I’m doing that now, expanding beyond being an actress and producing and creating my own films with the roles that I’ve wanted. I also love arts and crafts. I’ve been beading my whole life. And I’m really into rose quartz for love, for example. Every bracelet or piece of jewelry that I make with crystals has a huge meaning behind it. I’m an artist and I feel like I’m covering a lot of different areas in that, and I’m definitely satisfied with it. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Tara Reid, to learn and what do think you came here to teach? Tara Reid: I think I came into this life to teach people to feel good. I think I have a gift. It just seems like everywhere I go, among my friends, if there is something happening in their life, they talk to me, and I talk to them and I get them out of situations. What I’m here to learn is almost the opposite of that. I’ve had to learn to be progressive, humble, and to keep myself open to learning information that I can use to help others and help myself. Allison Kugel: Were there times in your life when you were not as humble as you could have been, and you look back on it and think, “Man, I should have been a little more humble, down to earth, appreciative,” and all of that? Tara Reid: Yes, I think when I first got famous, I didn’t really know what fame was. It is not something that is so easy to get thrown into, and it’s a bit shocking. The beginning of my fame almost scared me, and then I realized how to eventually deal with it. I learned how people are, and that not everyone’s going to love you. Social media can be terrible, and you cannot protect yourself on it. It was a growing process. Allison Kugel: When you were on that first American Pie set, did all of you have a feeling like, “Wow! This is going to blow up and make us all famous,” or did it just feel like… a job? Tara Reid: I think I felt like, “Oh, this is just a job.” Everyone in the cast was so new. The actors were mostly very green. It was the first movie for most of them, so we had a bond that was really close. When it blew up, you know, we still have that bond every time we see each other. The first people that you make it with, that never goes away. The movie I was most excited about, but didn’t do well, was Josie and The Pussycats. You never know what is going to work and what is not. Allison Kugel: If you could travel back in time and alter one historical event, where would you go and what would you attempt to change? Tara Reid: I wouldn’t want to change anything, but if I were to go back in time to a historical event that was fun, I would have loved to have been Marilyn Monroe singing “Happy Birthday” to the president [John F. Kennedy] (laugh). It was such a legendary moment. Allison Kugel: Would you like to become a mom at some point in your life, or are you good as you are? Tara Reid: Well, I feel like I’m a mom already. I have two dogs that I’m so attached to. I take them everywhere I go. These dogs have probably been to eight different countries! Right now, that is where I’m at. Will I have kids? Let’s see what is in store for me. It’s not a no, and it’s not a yes. I have gotten my eggs frozen so there is definitely the potential of that. If it is meant to be, it will happen. If not, I’m very comfortable where I’m at. Allison Kugel: Where do you see yourself in five years if you had to visualize it? Tara Reid: I definitely see myself being in a place where I’m excited and happy about producing and acting, and maybe married. I have great friends, so just to keep my friends close. I don’t have many friends, just ones that are my favorite and best, and we would do anything for each other. Allison Kugel: That’s all you need. Tara Reid: I just see myself going on the road that I’m on right now and feeling content. I have a great boyfriend, I have amazing dogs, good friends. Hopefully we can start traveling a lot again, because that is one of my favorite things. I kind of see myself moving along like The Little Engine That Could: I think I can, I think I can. Photo Credits: Brooke Mason Photography Follow Tara Reid on Instagram and Twitter @TaraReid Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture columnist and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow on Instagram @theallisonkugel and AllisonKugel.com.  By Allison Kugel In AMC’s hit series, Fear the Walking Dead, the post-apocalyptic spin-off series of The Walking Dead, now in the second half of its sixth season, actress Jenna Elfman brings a tour de force performance as former ICU nurse and apocalypse survivor, June Dorie. Her character carries significant trauma, and Elfman plays each note to perfection amid a flawless ensemble cast. What makes Jenna Elfman so interesting to watch on screen are her exotic blue eyes that dance wildly in comedic roles, and simmer with intent during heavier, more dramatic onscreen moments. Having come into our homes in the late 1990s and early 2000s as spirited Dharma Finkelstein on the Chuck Lorre created sitcom, Dharma & Greg, and later in romantic comedy films like Keeping the Faith and EDtv, audiences got to know the funny platinum blonde livewire that embodied a younger Jenna Elfman. As Jenna puts it during our conversation, “young ingenue” roles were her lane for many years; whether playing opposite Matthew McConaughey or Ben Stiller, her characters were somebody’s wife or somebody’s girlfriend. Jenna Elfman yearned to tackle the kind of self-contained, multi-dimensional character work she now enjoys with her role in Fear the Walking Dead. Allison Kugel: What parallels do you draw between the year 2020 and your apocalyptic show, Fear of The Walking Dead? Jenna Elfman: Good question. We really got to see what people do when their survival is threatened (laugh). You see the ones that tend to help, and you see the ones that tend to hoard, and everything in between. I think with the extreme example of what we do on Fear, which portrays a true apocalypse setting, it is an extreme version of the homeopathic dose we saw manifest amongst ourselves last year. Allison Kugel: And your take on our current society and culture? Jenna Elfman: Changing, and hopefully evolving… Allison Kugel: What do you think the upside would be if we needed to rebuild our society from the ground up, like in Fear? Jenna Elfman: There is always a greater opportunity for harmony and tolerance, and a broader and enlightened sense of each other, and respect. I would always hope that as a culture changes, it would improve in those ways so that we could [collectively] expand our culture in a way that is safer and more fun to live within. Allison Kugel: I first became aware of you years ago from your sitcom, Dharma and Greg. I remember seeing you in different settings, on red carpets, and thinking, “What’s the deal with this woman? Why is she so happy?” I don’t know if that is your 24/7 being, or if that is what you portrayed publicly. But there is a lightness to you. Where does that come from? Jenna Elfman: I love living life. I think life is fun and people are interesting, I have always been that way. I don’t know if it is my 24/7. I certainly move through all the human emotions like a normal person, but I do, as a general living condition, enjoy living life. Even the problems I tend to enjoy because I like to try to solve them. You feel so kickass when you solve problems, and that’s part of the adventure and I enjoy that. I also genuinely enjoy and love people. Allison Kugel: Did you want to take the role of June in Fear the Walking Dead to explore a darker, grittier side of yourself? Is that what attracted you to this show? Jenna Elfman: As an artist, I was craving a new opportunity to express myself in a different way. I love comedy! Comedy always comes from, to me, a sense of the tragic and the absurd. That comedy is a result of tragedy and exposing the humor of it. There is a certain kinetic rhythm to comedy which I love, but I was craving a change and I was craving a way to express myself as an artist, in a different way, and looking for that opportunity. Then Fear came along and offered me this great role, and it was exactly what I was craving. I also wanted to express myself in a more mature way than how I had been seen, previously. I felt the bulk of my career had been expressing myself kind of through a young ingenue’s viewpoint. Having aged a bit and lived life, and had so many experiences, I now wanted to express myself, artistically, through the viewpoint of a woman and bring that to my work.  Allison Kugel: I get that. This show is heavy and intense at times. Do you bring parts of it home with you? Jenna Elfman: I do not bring parts of it home. It is not a very mushy psychological situation for me. When the cameras are rolling, I am June. All my preparation at home, spending hours working on the script, researching it, and working through the scenes prepares me for when the cameras are rolling so I can wholly and fully be that character. When they say cut, I’m back to Jenna. For me, the story lives in me, as just that, a story. I am always contemplating the story and how I want to play tomorrow’s scenes as far as understanding my character more deeply. But I don’t bring the character home. I have too many hats to wear at home as it is, and that would make things way too difficult (laughs). You and I are both boy moms… and your son is very handsome by the way. Allison Kugel: Aww, well, thank you. And your boys are so cute! Jenna Elfman: And you know they want their mama’s attention, so when I’m home I kind of have to take off one hat and do that. Allison Kugel: Is there a fellow actor who has given you great advise? Jenna Elfman: (Jenna’s castmates) Garret Dillahunt and Lennie James. When I first came on the show and I was in Lennie’s trailer, we were talking about this job on Fear and about the mythology of the storyline. He said, “What I’ve learned is you can’t play the whole thing all at once. You cannot play the whole of the apocalypse, the whole of the mythology. It’s always there, but you can’t play all of that at once.” As an actor, getting to know this mythology and this universe I was in, that advice was very helpful to me. When we were working on episode 5 of season 4, called “Laura,” where our characters meet and we were doing a scene on the back porch and he’s trying to get me to change my shoes and wear a more practical boot, my character is in a very self-protective zone and I said to him, “No, I’m fine.” Garret Dillahunt said, “Why don’t you just take your foot and slide that pair of shoes over and away from you?” I was like, “Oh my God, that is brilliant!” And so, I did that in the scene, and they left it in. I kind of just slide it away like, “No, thank you.” I am learning from watching both of them, and I admire them a lot as actors. Allison Kugel: What has been your greatest triumph, to date? Jenna Elfman: Bringing children into this world. I think that is a huge triumph, and the most rewarding endeavor I have ever tackled. Allison Kugel: And what has been your greatest lesson, and how have you used that lesson in your life? Jenna Elfman: The greatest lesson that I have ultimately taken along my journey is that I do not, as a policy, make assumptions about people at all anymore. Until I have had ample time with them, and I have shared experiences with them where they define who they are to me. I do not make decisions based off rumor, hearsay, or things I’ve read. I refuse to, because it is almost always wrong, and you are shortchanging somebody. Also, people change and grow and learn. If I make a snap assumption and a decision about someone, that is prejudice. I am pre-judging somebody before I’ve ever met them and before they have had the opportunity to show me who they are. So, I don’t do that at all anymore and I know that I have changed and grown, and I would certainly like others to give me the opportunity to show and be who I am through my current actions and behaviors. It is much more exciting to allow someone to show you who they are in the present moment, and then make decisions based off that. Allison Kugel: Do you pray? And if so, who or what do you pray to? Jenna Elfman: I don’t pray per the literal definition, but I do like to observe life, dream, daydream about goals for myself and for the world, and then intend them. I like to grow myself mentally and spiritually as needed to help accomplish those dreams and make them come true for myself, for my family, and for others. I guess that is a form of praying, but it is not the commonly defined form of praying. I do like to dream and intend good things, and I am always intending good things for others. It makes me feel good to look at someone and hope and intend the best version of themselves into them. I find that to be a very therapeutic endeavor. Allison Kugel: When you intend good things for others you tend to receive a lot more from the universe, which is something I have learned over time. When somebody has something that you may want for yourself and don’t yet have and you indulge in that “Ugh” feeling of negativity and lack, you are negating yourself and taking energy away from yourself. Jenna Elfman: You’re invalidating yourself. Allison Kugel: Yes, one hundred percent. If you could travel back in time and alter one historical event, where would you go and what would you attempt to change? Jenna Elfman: I would have prevented the ability to make nuclear bombs. I would have tried to subvert that and used the atomic and nuclear knowledge and ability for other things, not for the destruction of mankind. So, if I could go back in time, I would have drawn a hard line in the sand on what they are allowed to do with that technology, and I would eradicate all nuclear arms from the face of the earth, as opposed to their ability to eradicate mankind from the face of the earth. Allison Kugel: Damn, that’s a good one Jenna! I would have just said something like, “I’d try to prevent Tupac from getting shot (laugh). Jenna Elfman: (Laugh) Well, that’s also true. Allison Kugel: You and your husband just celebrated your 26th wedding anniversary. How do you get to twenty-six years? What do you attribute it to? Jenna Elfman: I think there are three things. One, we started off as best friends and we are still best friends. That means we don’t keep secrets. We’re friends and we support each other. We don’t compete against each other, except for who’s more tired (laughs). That’s always a fun game.  Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Yup!
Jenna Elfman: That is really the only area of competition. It’s about friendship and humor. Humor has always been a big part of our relationship. We love to laugh and be silly, and we love to make each other laugh. Allison Kugel: Were you platonic friends for a long time before you became a couple? Jenna Elfman: I was 19 and he was 21, so the platonic-ness lasted maybe a month (laugh). Then we were boyfriend and girlfriend. The third thing, I would say, is communication. We talk everything through. Even if we are having a fight and feeling like, “I don’t want to talk to you.” We’ll take a break to collective ourselves, but we always come back and talk it out. It’s not like we haven’t gone through trials and tribulations. It’s that we always communicate our way through it. That is the only way you come to a solution or greater understanding with anything. No problem solves itself. Communication is kind of the lube for problem solving, so you have to be able to communicate. The fact that we are friends and have that foundation and we are faithful to each other. We don’t betray each other. We don’t cheat on each other, we don’t fuck around, we really have kept that tight and clean and respectful. Allison Kugel: You recently moved from California to Texas, where Fear the Walking Dead shoots? Do you miss L.A.? Jenna Elfman: Yes, I used to commute to Austin every week or every two weeks where we film the show, and with Covid happening, that commuting was not going to be a reality anymore, and now that I’m homeschooling my kids, it was like, “Okay, why not?” Austin is a great city, the people are super friendly, and the food is outstanding. We found a great neighborhood in a cul-de-sac and everybody is so nice. I don’t miss L.A. right now because it had gotten pretty dark there. It feels kind of apocalyptic in L.A. right now. I grew up in L.A., I was born and raised there and it’s not the city I grew up in right now, but it will revive itself. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach? Jenna Elfman: I think there are so many facets to life. I feel like I am always learning and you kind of don’t know what you don’t know until you start to learn about it. Then you realize how much you don’t know. I think the benefit of our information age is how much you can learn, and how quickly you can learn it and increase your rate of knowledge. We can now access history and stories of mankind so easily. That has been one of the cool things about homeschooling my kids, is curating the stuff they are learning. Allison Kugel: What do you think you are here to teach? Jenna Elfman: I would hope to impact people by inspiring them to have a healthy curiosity about the world. I think to be curious about the world and life, and about other people. I hope I would inspire others to be curious and interested in life, and always reaching into life and not backing away from it. Be brave, be interested, and don’t be scared to communicate. Allison Kugel: I like that. What item still remains on your bucket list? Jenna Elfman: I really want to go to Greece. There was five years of my early education where I went to a Greek Orthodox school in our neighborhood, and we got to learn about Greek culture and religion. We learned the Greek language and I love Greek people so much. There is just something incredibly special to me about Greece, and I’ve always wanted to go to there to experience and fully immerse myself in that beautiful culture. Allison Kugel: What would you still like to attempt in your career? Jenna Elfman: I would like to continue the opportunity of character work. That is what I love about acting so much, is the ability to live many lives in one lifetime through these characters. I am really kind of obsessed with the journey of acting and growing as an actor. That is really my jam right now. I love and will always do comedy, but I accomplished a lot in comedy. I’m on this new journey of becoming a dramatic actress and expanding my abilities in that way. I’m craving the opportunity to play more characters and to work with great artists to grow and learn from working with them. Allison Kugel: Lastly, what is in store for your character June as this new season progresses. Jenna Elfman: There are some big June stories coming. We are going to see this new strong, but challenged, side to her and she has more story to go through. I think viewers are really going to enjoy it. Photos Courtesy of AMC/Ryan Green, Ray Katchatorian Season 6B of Fear the Walking Dead is out now on AMC Network. Catch up on seasons 1 through 5 on Hulu. Follow Jenna Elfman at JennaElfman.com and on Instagram and Twitter @jennaelfman Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture columnist and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with RZA By Allison Kugel As leader of the legendary multi-platinum selling rap group, The Wu-Tang Clan, RZA, or Bobby, as he is known to close friends and colleagues, had a particular way of putting beats to razer-sharp lyrics that made you feel part of a song’s creative process. Fans feel RZA’s music, both from Wu-Tang and his solo and collaborative efforts, on a cellular level. An urban-bred intellectual who expresses through a mic or camera lens, RZA is considered prophetic to his community and perhaps a unicorn to mainstream culture. With a penchant for Eastern philosophy as is evident in the name Wu-Tang Clan and lyrical nods to Shaolin Kung Fu, RZA shared, “One thing I’m looking forward to doing in the near future… I’ve never been to India, and I have to check that one off,” referring to the top item on his bucket list. I recommended he connect with Indian author and yogi, Jaggi Vasudev, also known as Sadhguru, when he makes the trip. RZA is so well-read and well-versed, it felt novel giving him someone and something beyond his scope to Google. As a film director, RZA paints complex portraits with colorful multi-faceted characters that inspire engagement and empathy. His latest directorial effort, the allegorical Cut Throat City (streaming on Netflix) features an all-star cast and examines the lives of people living in New Orleans’ economically depressed Lower Ninth Ward in the aftermath of 2005’s Hurricane Katrina. The historically disastrous storm broke through poorly constructed levees, flooding out the city’s most vulnerable residents, and leaving them with little hope or help from FEMA. Much like our current pandemic, Katrina shone a light on shameful racial and economic inequities. Though the film’s story is a sobering one and the lead character’s decisions are morally ambiguous, he insists the film portrays “a story of redemption,” with parallels to his own life. “No one [in this film] is completely bad and no one is completely good. They were all flawed. It exemplified their humanity and it comes down to a choice. The theme of [Cut Throat City] examines the importance of dreams against a backdrop of survival.” Reflecting on his early days in the spotlight, RZA denounces some of his youthful bravado as he recites a trademark Wu-Tang lyric for me, “Wu-Yang Clan ain’t nuthing ta fuck wit,” and laughs out loud at an ego-driven existence that took center stage early on. It’s now tempered, he says, by a need to serve something greater than himself. Throughout our conversation, RZA’s words are prophetic, culturally provocative and spiritually centered. We talked about a life lived outside the matrix of material trappings; a topic initiated by him and encouraged by me. Allison Kugel: Do you believe anything is possible, or that circumstances dictate our destiny? RZA: Wow, that’s a strong question. I think that persistence overcomes resistance. Therefore, every possibility is actually expressed in our children’s wishes. The things we wish for as young minds and things we thrive in our spirits for, I think they make that which seems impossible, possible. The whole Greek study of Icarus and the idea of men flying… that seems like it would be magic or some other thing. We fly every day now in many different variations of flight, for example, flights that leave our basic atmosphere and travel across the whole world. So, what seems impossible, I think positivity and possibilities are probably boundless. Allison Kugel: What lessons can be learned from poverty, and what lessons can be learned from wealth? RZA: Poverty and wealth are two very different circumstances, but those are physical circumstance. I think we have to be conscious to not have the physical circumstance truly shake our spiritual and our personality. I grew up in poverty, but I was never unhappy. Joy and love were in our household. My mother was a single mother, but joy and love made up for the lack of food and shelter. The point I make in saying that is, of course, in a capitalist society our freedoms are compartmentalized. Therefore, you could be physically free and not spiritually free. You can be spiritually and physically free, and not economically free. Since economic freedom is a requirement for proper food, clothing, and shelter, it can become something that transcends the physical, and bleeds into the spiritual. If life was simple, everything we want is already provided for us by the planet. There is nothing on this planet that we eat, ingest, take, dance with, fly with, that is not from the planet. It’s just that when you are dealing with certain [economic] systems, they take control over us. Even in some religious traditions they have ways of controlling what is naturally ours. I’m out here in New Jersey in the woods right now, and I just saw some deer walk by. A whole family [of deer] eating whatever they ate and they keep walking. Allison Kugel: I had a similar moment when I looked at a family of birds outside my house, and they don’t need anything. They’ve figured all of it out for free, on their own. RZA: Yes! There is a beautiful verse in the Holy Quran that speaks on that. I’ll paraphrase it. It says something like, “The birds and the bees are taking care of every day with no worries. Do you think Allah would do less for man, his greatest creation?” Everything they have access to, we have access to. It’s that we grabbed control over it and denied access to certain people. That’s playing into the theme of my film (RZA’s latest directorial effort, Cut Throat City, streaming on Netflix).  Allison Kugel: Yup! That’s why I’m asking about it… RZA: One of the biggest issues of the situation in this film that I hope the audience catches is that Blink (played by Shameik Moore) goes in with his wife (played by Kat Graham) and child for help from FEMA and they ask, “What is your salary?” She says, “About $32,000.” Not a bad salary and not a great salary… Allison Kugel: It’s a hard salary. It’s a salary that would be very challenging to raise a family on. Would you agree? RZA: Yes, I would agree. And within that salary she’s paying a third of that in taxes. Her tax money is paid into a system to protect her when the time comes that you need the protection. Now here it is, I’m in need of what I paid into and I’m being denied because of my community or because of my race. That is the equation we overlook in our capitalist society. The money that they spend every year is not their money, it’s our money that they are controlling. Allison Kugel: After watching your film, Cut Throat City, which depicts the lives of people living in New Orleans’ Lower Ninth Ward in 2005, post-Hurricane Katrina, I researched and read that in 1965 there was also a catastrophic hurricane in the area. Same thing happened, where the levees were not maintained properly and they broke. They already knew there was a strong possibility it could happen again, and yet they did nothing to protect these people. RZA: The line that Ethan Hawke gives in the film, he talks about how it also happened in the early 1900s, but it was more intentional. They let the levees break so the water could flood the lower land and it wouldn’t spread up to the white districts. The thing about separation of people who are of color or [lower] economics, it has existed for a long time in our country and there is no relief and no delivery from the situation. Even if the Lower Ninth was built to be low income, as your city is growing and your tax dollars are coming into your city, those resources should be used to ensure everyone’s safety and security. In the beginning of the city’s history, I understand. I started in a small apartment when I left my house. I was nineteen years old and my mother said the time had come to go. I started in a small apartment and (Wu-Tang Clan member) Ghostface [Killah] was my roommate. We had another roommate, my cousin Rob. We lived there, three guys in a one bedroom, and we stayed there until we raised enough money to get a two bedroom (laugh). You know what I mean? Allison Kugel: (Laughs) Yes! I do know what you mean. RZA: We kept going, and it even got to the point where one of us could move out and one of us still stayed, and that lasted until we hit it big. The point is, it’s okay to start at the bottom and struggle, but when there is no relief from the struggle, that is when it becomes insidious, evil, and oppressive. Like I said, the money that FEMA was giving in 2005 for Hurricane Katrina Relief was the money that came from the people. It wasn’t [FEMA’s] money. Allison Kugel: I’m assuming you spent time in New Orleans prior to directing Cut Throat City? RZA: I traveled there many times and spent three weeks studying the city. This film wasn’t just about these four guys in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. It was the fact that this was a story about what happens when your aspirations turn into desperation. That I know, that I’ve felt, and that I’ve lived. I come from a single mother household and so does my whole crew. Seven of the nine members [of Wu-Tang Clan] are that. In this film, Blink (the film’s lead character) was a nerd, in all reality. He was an academic and went to college. He had a talent, you know? Allison Kugel: That is what is so heartbreaking about this story. Here is a guy who went to Tulane University, who has extraordinary talent for drawing and storytelling, and it’s wasted talent. It’s a squandered life. But then at the end of the film, there are two different endings. Explain that… RZA: A lot of people have been tweeting about that and asking what’s going on. The artist in me left it up for interpretation. If you go back and look at the film closely, you’ll see that there is an egg in there that should answer the questions. Maybe people missed it, but the reason why I did that is because in life, very few of us get second chances. But, what happens if you give a man a second chance? I, myself, am a second chance-er. When I read this story, I felt the character Blink all in my system. I felt his pain. Then I realized I actually was an artist and a smart guy who got caught up in gangs and the streets, and ended up facing eight years in jail, but I won my trial. When I won my trial, I changed my life. I focused on study and making myself better, looking at my creativity, and I formed The Wu-Tang Clan. I became a success story, because I was given a second chance.  Allison Kugel: Sometimes a single decision can change everything… RZA: And I wasn’t bad. A lot of people are not bad, they just made a bad decision. [I wish] the criminal justice system could look at it that way. Most of the guys in the Wu were the same. We were all arrested felons or something like that, and we had a second chance. I wanted to express that in this film. In the original screenplay, though, I have to be honest, he dies. But as a director I get to tell the story and I get to shape it. I wanted to shape it with optimism. I said, “I’m going to leave some optimism there and let the people who watch it decide, which pill would they take?” In the film the detective tells him, “A pen will get you further than a gun.” I’m living proof. It was a pen that got me further than anytime I was trying to do something foolish with a gun. Allison Kugel: Speaking of which pill to take. You strike me as a guy who operates outside the matrix. I know you’re part of the Five Percent Nation. Do you sometimes feel like you don’t quite sync up with the everyday person? RZA: No. I don’t feel like I don’t sync up. I feel blessed that I see the beauty of what I see. Whether anybody else sees it or not, it’s okay. It’s not like, “Man, wow, they’re missing it.” Even as a vegan and never having a yearning for steak, never having the idea in the back of my head of the pain I’m inflicting on someone else; it’s a very liberating feeling to not be the cause of pain and turmoil to any living thing. I actually feel more required to do what I’m supposed to do, so that if there is positivity in what I’m doing, may others see it. They’ll see it in their own given time, and I’m okay with that. Allison Kugel: Do you want to explain what the Five Percent Nation is? RZA: I’m going to tell you something they taught us in studying the lessons of The Five Percent, and it is sometimes misunderstood. What they are trying to say when they say, “Five Percent,” is they took a number of 100% and they separated it into the different types of people in the world. They say that 10% of the people know the same things that the five percent know, but the 10% use it to control other people. They know that there’s falsehood. They know it’s a game, they know the rules of the game. They aren’t playing it, but they’re making everybody else play it. They say 85% of people are easily led in the wrong direction. The 10% will lead them in the wrong direction even though they know the right direction. Then there’s 5% of the people who know the right direction and they strive to teach it. Scientists who deal with quantum physics and the measurement of space, they say all the atoms in the entire universe only represent five percent of the universe.  Allison Kugel: And the rest is space. RZA: The rest is space. It’s a mathematical equation. They taught us that we should all strive for the Twelve Jewels of Life which is: knowledge, wisdom, understanding, freedom, justice, equality, food, clothing, shelter, love, peace, and happiness. If you have that, you’re rich. I honestly feel I have that, and to me, that is more valuable than anything that is out there. In my art, I try to express those qualities. Allison Kugel: In the film who would you say was the most fun to direct, who was the most challenging, and who did you vibe with artistically? RZA: Wow, it’s hard to separate such a great cast and great talents. Every one of us had our moments, like an all-star team. I can say that Kat Graham really shows that it’s not just beauty in her, but it’s her strength and expression. I’m glad that she became the anchor of that family, and she did it beautifully. She could have played it pretty and sexy. Even though she was beautiful on screen, it was natural. She was strong to go and fight for her man. Ethan Hawke, I felt like we were on a natural high working together with the way the ideas were flowing back and forth, and his choices of emotions. And as a fan, it was a joy to have Terrence Howard, Wesley Snipes and Isaiah Washington come and work in my film. Allison Kugel: Did you originally think Kat Graham was too pretty for this role? RZA: No, that wasn’t a thought. I got lucky to get Kat. We had developed her role for another actress who became unavailable about two weeks before we were shooting. Then our agent said that Kat Graham read the script and was interested, and would I be interested to talk with her? We did a FaceTime and she said exactly what I needed to hear. Allison Kugel: Which was? RZA: She said to me, “The strength of this woman is in the pages, Bobby, and I want to bring you that strength.” It wasn’t about bringing beauty; it was about bringing me strength. Then when you look at T.I., he totally shocked me and blew my mind. T.I. also came into the cast late. I had been developing the film for five years, and I always wanted Method Man to play the role of Cousin, but he told me he wasn’t into the bad guy roles right now. Allison Kugel: What do you want people to take away from the film, Cut Throat City, beyond being entertained? RZA: I would like to think the people who see these four main characters in the film as criminals can now understand that they are a victim of circumstance. If we can walk away and understand that some people who are in bad situations are victims of circumstances, we can prevent the circumstances. I don’t know if that makes sense to you. Allison Kugel: That makes sense. RZA: How do we prevent the circumstances? Before I started the movie, I met with a guy who was locked up and he told me he read an article about me and he agreed with what he read about me. I asked him, “Which article was that?” He said it was an article where I said I was a nerd. And I was like, “Yes, I am. I like comic books. I like video games. I like chess.” He said, “I loved reading that about you, because I’m a nerd too!” This guy was serving 15 years for armed robbery. He was saying that really, he is also a creator, but there was no outlet for him. So he got caught up in a hustle. There was another guy that was in the cell with him who ended up fixing all the computers inside the jail, but he’s in for murder. I’m not justifying a murder, but he said that he was bullied and bullied and bullied. He was forced to fight, and once he fought it was like he became a cowboy. Allison Kugel: Here is the question I ask everybody. What do you think you came into this world to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach in this lifetime? RZA: Wow, that is a beautiful question. What did I come to learn? One thing I am learning is humility. Even though I may appeared, on the surface, to have it, it was something that I think I lacked. I was pretty conceited, really coming up. If you listen to my old music, I acted like, “I’m the greatest and everybody else is beneath me (laughs).” Allison Kugel: Well, you were in your twenties, right? RZA: Yes.. Allison Kugel: Hello! (laugh) RZA: Exactly. But it’s good to understand that there is a universe out there. You can be a sun, but there’s other suns. But I do think what I’m destined to teach, if anything, is that you can be a living example of your own ideas. Through my art, I’ll be able to inspire and that’s the best thing. I think I was brought her to inspire. I was born to inspire. RZA Photos Courtesy of CAA, Film Stills Courtesy of Well Go USA Entertainment/Netflix Cut Throat City is currently streaming on Netflix. Follow RZA on Facebook and Instagram. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture columnist and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. 
By Allison Kugel
Tommy Lee has something to say about a lot of things. Iconic drummer for the multi-platinum selling mythical rock band Mötley Crüe, solo artist, master of mayhem … philosopher? To have a conversation with Tommy Lee is to be regaled with tales of a life lived to the extreme, and to bear witness to a dynamically creative imagination. Yes, Tommy Lee has that whole Law of Attraction thing nailed down in spades. He dreams up larger than life adventures and makes them happen, not just for him, but for all of us. Anyone who has ever been to a Mötley Crüe concert and felt their breathe escape their body as they watched Lee drum his heart out, upside down and on a roller coaster, will back me up. Tommy Lee might be more mellow these days, but his imagination is still operating on high octane. Now living his life sober, married to social media star Brittany Furlan and a father to two adult sons, Dylan Jagger Lee and Brandon Thomas Lee (MTV's The Hills: New Beginnings), the 58 year old living legend might be more mellow in body, but his spirit remains a livewire, ready to jump at any adrenaline fueled pursuit that will scratch his insatiable itch for feeling alive. Lee's latest musical endeavor, his newly released album, ANDRO, boldly crosses musical genres. Fourteen tracks feature a roster of incredibly talented artists, punctuated by both male and female vocals, creating a medley of defiant metal, brazen alternative and progressive pop. Tommy Lee is humble, shockingly down to earth and grounded in his love for the music. Our conversation travels through images of his childhood, religious upbringing, the power of hard lessons learned and the purity of rock 'n roll debauchery sans social media. Allison Kugel: What's your earliest memory realizing music was going to be your path? Tommy Lee: I remember, and my parents reinforced this, that it started around the age of two or three. You know when you're in the terrible twos and you’re into the drawers and cabinets. I'm pulling out pots and pans and spoons, anything I can get your hands on, just playing drums like crazy. My poor parents, I drove them nuts. But that's my earliest recollection. I can see myself on the kitchen floor just wailing on everything (laugh). Allison Kugel: Wow! Do you believe in past lives? Tommy Lee: I go back and forth with that one. Sometimes I think when you die, you’re done. But then there are other times where I have this weird attraction to trees and to birds. Every time I see a bird fly by I wonder if in my past life I was a bird, because I have this fascination with flying. That’s a wild question. Why? Allison Kugel: I believe that it is not an accident when children come into this life with certain predilections towards something, whether they are just really interested in something or they have a God given talent, even if it hasn’t been developed yet. But I believe it comes from somewhere else and your soul carries these things with it, or you make a plan before you come here as to what your purpose is and what you came here to accomplish. Tommy Lee: That’s wild. I think about that too. My dad tooled around with drums in the marching band when he was in school, but he wasn’t really musical. It’s not like I came from a generational music family or inherited a musical family trait, so I’ll go with that. I was definitely put here to do this, for sure. Nothing else brings me that much joy or makes me feel that amazing. Nothing. Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about this new album, ANDRO. I really loved how you showcase all of these up and coming artists, and I love that you worked with so many women on this album, really talented women. Where did you find them? Tommy Lee: So much of this record happened organically and authentically. I didn't set out to make a record that was half male and half female energy. I love the female voice and that energy that it brings. It can make you cry, it can make you feel sexy, so many things. I keep a collaboration list of people that I love, where I think, "One day I have to do something with this person." So, in writing for this album, there were moments when I was writing these tracks that needed that female energy on them. I love that kind of music. I mean, I love all kinds of music, but I would be working on a song and be like, Oh My God! I know that Push Push would just kill this song!" And I’ve been following her for years. She was on my list of people to work with. That is really in a nutshell how it happened. The voice would come to me once the music was starting to come together. I would say, "I know exactly who to do this with." I ended up with just as many male tracks as female tracks, hence the album title, “ANDRO." Allison Kugel: Can you describe your creative process? Tommy Lee: My process is never the same. I will hear a melody and I will sing a basic melody and put it down as a scratch, so I don't forget it. Sometimes it will come as a drum beat that I’m hearing, and I’ll just put down the drum, or sometimes a keyboard or a guitar part. It’s never the same. I don’t have a method. It’s always random and I love it because it just comes in spurts from different places. A lot of times a melody will come into my brain and I’ll just grab my phone really quick, so I don’t forget it. There is nothing worse than having these incredible ideas and losing them. I’ve done it so many times where it's 2 or 3 in the morning and I’m thinking, "Oh My God! This is so good, there is no way I'm going to forget it, and I just go back to bed. And then I forget it! It wasn’t meant to be, I guess. 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh) I know exactly what you mean. I keep a notebook and pen next to my bed when I know I'm doing an interview. If I think of a really killer question at 3 in the morning, I have to write it down, because I’m going to forget.
Tommy Lee: Sometimes on the spot you're probably thinking, "I can’t even believe it. I forgot to ask one of the most important questions. What the hell?" I get it. Allison Kugel: Yes! Especially if you’re a perfectionist and hard on yourself, like me. Tommy Lee: Yes! Finishing a record for me is like letting go or putting a baby up for adoption or something (laughs). It takes forever for me to finally say that it's done. At the end of the day you can continue to keep making something better and better, but I've had to work on that and say, “No, this is super rad Tommy. Let it go.” If I had the chance I would still be down in my studio. Allison Kugel: You appear to the outside world as an extrovert and the life of the party, but is there a part of you that is an introvert? Is being alone in your studio your happy place? Tommy Lee: It's totally my happy place. When I’m happy or sad I will immediately head to the piano. It's one of the most beautiful instruments that gives you immediate gratification when you start playing chords that sound beautiful to you. It always makes me feel better. Yes, you would assume that I’m the crazy guy, and I can be, but I really am introverted in many ways. Allison Kugel: I got that vibe from you! What is the best advice you've ever been given that's directed your life? Tommy Lee: I share this with my sons constantly because I see it in so many young people. I always tell them, “Be yourself, everybody else is already taken.” So many people, especially now with [social media], they watch other people’s lives and try to emulate this or that, and say, "That's super rad. I need to have that because someone else has that." This younger generation tries so hard to be somebody or something, and they’re going in the wrong direction. The correct direction is inward. I just always support them in being their authentic selves. That's my best advice. Be yourself above anything else, because there is only one of you and that one is precious. Just rock what your mama gave you. My sons live in a very different world than when I was their age, and nobody really said those kinds of things to me, so I think that's cool advice. Allison Kugel: Speaking of social media, how do you think your entire music career and your life would have played out differently had there been social media back then? Tommy Lee: (Laugh) Oh man! I tell people this all the time, and it is a fact and it is the truth, that we got away with… when I say murder, I mean everything but the act of physically killing somebody (laugh). We carried on and we did anything and everything you could possibly imagine, because there wasn't social media. People were not carrying around a cell phone that had a camera on it all the time. If you were going to take a picture of something you needed to take a picture and get it developed at the one-hour photo place, and even that wasn't always an hour. Sometimes it was a day. It was a free-for-all before social media. You didn’t have to worry about where you were and is this going to show up on Instagram in four minutes. A lot of fans that watched the Mötley Crüe movie The Dirt, will ask, "Is that really what it was like back then?" It was absolutely what it was like. And a lot of them feel like they missed out on that in their lifetime and they will never get to experience it. It was crazy back then. And when I say "back then" it wasn't that long ago before cell phones, cameras, and social media. Allison Kugel: As crazy as this is to say to you, it was a more innocent time… as weird as that sounds (laugh)! Tommy Lee: (Laughs) Right. You had to do something really terrible to get into trouble. Allison Kugel: How are people responding to your new album, ANDRO? Some of the music has a metal sound and some of it has a pop sound, which is a departure for you. Tommy Lee: Everyone that I’ve talked to loves it, and of course you have your occasional haters who are like, "This is bullshit, man. It doesn’t sound like Mötley." Well, it’s not Mötley. Of course it doesn’t sound like Mötley. And it's not like this is some new thing. I’ve been doing this since 2000 with Methods of Mayhem which was my first solo venture. I’ve been cross-genre-pounding-hybrid making cool shit since 2000. I don’t think it’s a big surprise to many people. The majority of people are digging it, and in Australia the ANDRO album was number six on the Alternative Chart, which is super cool. Alternative and pop are kind of the same to me, and I love pop music. I love good music and I don’t care whether it's pop or what genre it is. It’s called pop because it's popular. At the end of the day I just dig good music. 
Allison Kugel: Do you pray? And, if so, who or what do you pray to?
Tommy Lee: I'm not religious. Although, when I was young, I was Greek Orthodox. My mom was very religious, so I do have that experience from when I was younger going to a Greek church. Since then, I’ve moved on to practicing a little Buddhism, and I don’t really pray to anything in particular. I believe in something much bigger than any of us, which is the universe. So, although I am not religious, I am spiritual. Allison Kugel: Knowing you're an animal lover, is that what connects you to trees and animals, that holistic feeling of connectedness? Tommy Lee: Yes. I love all that stuff and that is just another piece of evidence that there is so much beauty out in the world and in the universe that has been provided to all of this. We get to enjoy all of this, and I have nothing but love and respect for animals, plants, and our planet. Allison Kugel: What is still on your bucket list? I can’t even imagine (laugh), but is there something? Tommy Lee: Are you familiar with what they call "Squirrel Suits (bodysuits used for wingsuit flying that resembles a flying squirrel)?" You see those guys that fly in those suits. They’re like wings when they open up. People put on this suit with wings and a webbed fabric and they fly. I want to try that. I’m going to be a bird one day (laugh). That is on my list. I’m just kind of waiting for the right time to do that because it’s not like you just go up and jump off the Swiss Alps and go and do it. You have to go through the training, which is incredible. There's a guy that flies for Red Bull and he offered to help me. I have to do it. Allison Kugel: You are not a fearful guy. You’re pretty brave. Tommy Lee: No, I’m all about it. I’m such a thrill seeker, I can’t stand it. I also want to go to this three-day school where you do two days in the classroom and the third day you're strapped into an alcohol burning funny car, going 320 mph. What is that like, that three seconds of G-force? I’ve already been upside down in a plane. I’ve done a lot of crazy stuff already, but I’ve got some things on my list I still want to do. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Tommy Lee to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach? Tommy Lee: Obviously, I came here to learn a lot because I have learned a lot and you can’t do that unless you have some years on this planet. It might fall under the musical category, because like I said, at a very early age, earlier than most, I was drumming and playing music. I think I’m here to teach and enforce the power of yourself and to be careful what you wish for. There have been many things that I’ve set out to do and people have told me "No." No is not an option for me. I remember sitting on the corner of my bed thinking, "One day I’m going to play drums upside down, flying around in a rollercoaster." And I’ve done it! When people told me it can't be done, I said, "That's bullshit. It can be done." Anything can be done. Allison Kugel: I have goosebumps right now (laugh). I love that. Tommy Lee: Aww, that’s so cool, and it's the truth. I can’t even tell you how many people would say, "Dude, you can’t do that," and my response would be, "Who says we can’t?" Yes, the application is extremely difficult, but I know it can be done. I guess one thing I'm here to teach is not accepting "No," and to have No not even be an option. That’s what I’m leaving in my wake. It Can Be Done! Allison Kugel: Love it! That is the most awesome way to end this interview! Tommy Lee: (Laugh) That is beautiful. Images of Tommy Lee Courtesy of Myriam Santos, Album Cover Art Courtesy of Todd Gallopo/Meat and Potatoes Tommy Lee's third solo album ANDRO assembles an eclectic collection of rappers and singers, some known and some unknown, to bring his musical creations to life. Follow on Instagram, YouTube and Twitter. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture columnist and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and AllisonKugel.com. 
Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Al Sharpton
By Allison Kugel
For many Black Americans, he is next to a Messiah. For many non-Black Americans, he is thought to be an agitator, riling up already uncomfortable societal quagmires that are better left swept under the rug. Media image aside, Reverend Al Sharpton is neither of these things. The boy raised by a single mother in working class Queens, New York, developed a passion for civil rights activism as a pre-teen. He began marching alongside Reverend Jesse Jackson and other prominent civil rights activists at the tender age of thirteen, seeking to progress the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s message of civil disobedience and taking the high road to equal rights under the law for Black Americans. As the years progressed, though the American civil rights movement has remained something of a moving target, much of the fight has landed at Reverend Al Sharpton's doorstep. Families of victims of police brutality, fatal racial discrimination and other hate crimes come to him in their quest to gain the media attention they need to enact criminal justice and legislative reform on behalf of their loved ones. The powerless and voiceless look to Reverend Sharpton to get their voices heard. As Sharpton, himself, put it to me during our conversation, "People have called me an ambulance chaser, but we are the ambulance." He is referring to victims' families who have been helped by Sharpton's National Action Network (NAN), providing everything from the media attention these families need to pressure prosecutors to take action towards justice, to gaining the attention of congress for policy reform, as well as emotional and financial support in some instances. Now, with his new book, Rise Up: Confronting A Country At The Crossroads, Reverend Al Sharpton outlines his unrelenting position on the weightiest political and societal issues of our time, recounts some hard lessons learned, and offers an inside glimpse into the mentors who shaped the man we see today. Most importantly, Reverend Sharpton outlines his plan for an America at the crossroads. Allison Kugel: In light of recent news in the Breonna Taylor case (no criminal charges were filed in her death), what was your first reaction when you heard that decision? Reverend Al Sharpton: It was alarming, but not surprising. I didn’t have confidence in this investigation, because of the obvious policies of the prosecutor. The prosecutor guides the grand jury and there is nobody in there besides the prosecutor. This prosecutor is a protege of Mitch McConnell. I did not think that he was going to do anything. I did feel that the indictment of the other officer, [Brett] Hankison, for the endangerment of everybody but Breonna was just as offensive. What they are saying is that he was reckless in who he was shooting at and putting others at risk. What about who they shot, and her being at risk? It is one of the reasons why we do what we do, in saying there needs to be new laws. We just had a big march with tens of thousands of us, three weeks ago. Among two of the things we wanted are The George Floyd Policing and Justice Act that sat in the House, but the Senate hasn’t taken it up. It would strengthen the laws that would have eliminated the no knock laws and put this whole thing in a different perspective. That's one of the things I talk about that in this new book (Rise Up, Hanover Square Press). Allison Kugel: Many people believe that you just show up wherever the action and media attention is. It's important for people to know that you and your National Action Network (NAN) are the ones who work to bring national attention to these cases in the first place. For example, it was your organization, NAN, that brought national attention to Trayvon Martin's murder and to George Floyd's murder. Without your hard work, the world wouldn't know the names Trayvon Martin or George Floyd. Why isn't this common knowledge? Reverend Al Sharpton: A lot of the media just doesn’t say it. Ben Crump (Attorney for the Floyd family) and the families have said it. In fact, Breonna Taylor’s mother's first interview was on my show (MSNBC's "PoliticsNation"). They couldn’t get a national show before my show. Sybrina Fulton (Trayvon Martin's mother) wrote about it her book on Trayvon. Ben Crump brought them to New York to ask me to blow up Trayvon [in the media]. Trayvon had been buried for 2 weeks. I didn’t even know about Trayvon until they came and met with me in my office. We made it an issue and called the first rally and had about 10,000 people out there. It ended up being the day my mother died, and I went ahead with the rally anyway. I said in the eulogy to George Floyd that people call me to blow things up, and I have an infrastructure with NAN where we support the family, we help them get legal advice and media advice, and we stay with them. Sometimes people can’t cover their expenses if they need to do a rally. Some of them need to pay their rent, and NAN helps with that. They call us because they know we'll come. Allison Kugel: Who is your heir apparent once you reach a certain age and you are no longer able to do this work? Reverend Al Sharpton: That would come up through the ranks of NAN (Sharpton's National Action Network). We have a lot of young people in our youth and college division, and some of them have a lot of potential. It is not up to me to choose who it will be, but I think it will come up from the ranks of the movement. That is why I built an organization. I could have just resigned from NAN several years ago, not worried about raising five to ten million dollars a year, and just done radio and TV and been a personality. I built a structure because I wanted to go way beyond my viability. I came out of that kind of structure, but nobody anointed me. The point person before me was Reverend Jesse Jackson who was one of my mentors, but he didn’t choose me. Cream rises to the top. You’re going to take a lot of scrutiny. You’re going to take a lot of attacks. I’ve been stabbed and done time in jail for marching. There is a downside to this, and not everybody is built for that. Allison Kugel: What you are saying is actually a great life lesson. Nobody anoints you. Nobody taps you on the head and says, "You are the chosen one." It has to come from within, and a person takes it upon themselves to take the ball and run with it. That applies to anything in life. Reverend Al Sharpton: Absolutely, and you will only do it if it comes from inside. If I sat down and asked somebody if they would go through what I went through… I’ve done 90 days in jail at one time. Who would apply for that? But if it is in you, you take it as it comes because your commitment and your beliefs are bigger than whatever it is you are going to face. But this is not a career move. I started to write when I was 12, I started preaching before that, and I became youth director under Jesse and Reverend William Jones when I was 13. When I was 13 years old, I didn’t sit down and say, "If I do this, one day I’ll have a show on MSNBC." When I started, there was no MSNBC. There was no radio show syndication owned by blacks. You do things out of commitment and things result from that, but your critics will act like you just figured out this will make you famous. How would I know at 13 years old where this was going to go? 
Allison Kugel: After reading your book cover to cover I went to sleep and woke up the next morning with this thought: We are supposed to be the smartest, most sophisticated species on the planet. However, we have trillions of dollars in circulation on this planet, and millions of people are broke. We have more than enough food, to the point that we throw out ridiculous amounts of food every day, and millions of people are starving. So, we can’t be that smart.
Reverend Al Sharpton: I think you should be an activist. You are absolutely right. It’s a matter of will and a matter of using the intelligence we claim to have to distribute things more wisely, and to make people the priority rather than greed and ego. It's a decision that we throw out food and not feed everybody. There is enough food for everybody. It is a decision to allow the water and the air to be polluted for people's profit. We can clean up the air and the water. That is part of why I’m saying we need to Rise Up (the title of Sharpton's new book, out 9/29), and this is not a book that just deals with blacks. I deal with climate change. I deal with LGBTQ rights. I'm saying, across the board, we could be better than this, but we are not rising up and demanding these things. Allison Kugel: In your book you illustrate a parallel between The Great Depression and The New Deal put in place by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and our current economic crisis due to COVID-19 and the potential solution of a Green New Deal. Have you had the chance to speak with Kamala Harris or Joe Biden about this? Reverend Al Sharpton: During the [primary] campaign, yes. There was the meeting when Kamala came to Harlem and went with me to Sylvia’s soul food restaurant. I’ve talked to them separately. I’ve not talked to them at length since they were nominated. Obviously, we've talked on the phone, but this is something that I’m pushing out and I’m encouraging them to do. With COVID-19 this country is going to go through a tremendous economic challenge. We need a Marshall Plan and government involvement to bring the country back. If we don’t have that kind of engagement, we are going to have a very difficult 2021 and 2022. Allison Kugel: How do you see a Green New Deal rolling out despite the strong lobby for oil? How can a new administration circumvent that? Reverend Al Sharpton: Rise up and vote in this election and put in office people that will not be in any way swayed by the lobbyists. We have to change the lawmakers. Lobbyists can only go as far as who they can influence. You currently have people in the Senate and the Congress that they can influence. They have to have that majority commit to it; the same way Roosevelt did with The New Deal. That is why I wanted this book out before the upcoming election, to lay all of this out. Allison Kugel: With the worldwide protests that erupted after the murder of George Floyd, what do you ultimately see resulting from all the protesting? Reverend Al Sharpton: The legislation is one, as I said, but the overall result should be how we as a culture redefine policing and move past police being above the law while questioning the actions of some police is thought to be anti-police. I think legislation can enforce this, or we need a cultural shift. One of the reasons the Floyd case caught on the way it did is that it happened in the middle of a pandemic and everyone was in lockdown. There were no sports, so people were watching the news to see what was happening with the lockdown. They kept seeing this footage over and over again, and they couldn’t turn to sports as a distraction. There was no distraction with George Floyd, and I think that caused an eruption. How could somebody press their weight with their knee on someone’s neck for more than eight minutes unless there was some venom there? Allison Kugel: I believe everything happens for a reason. I love how you said that God chooses the most unlikely people to make the biggest impact on the world. George Floyd's story and his likeness will be passed down for generations to come. Has the Floyd family grasped the enormity of that? Reverend Al Sharpton: Yes, we talk about it all the time. His brother, Philonise, who does a lot of speaking for the family, we talk almost every day. We talked last night, and I think they have begun to understand the impact. Their immediate reaction was they didn’t understand it, because they were suddenly thrust into something [public] and they were also mourning. As time has gone on and they see people responding to George and his image, they understand that maybe God used him as an instrument. I told them God absolutely used him as an instrument. Nothing but God could have brought it to this level, and you have to be at peace with that and also set your responsibility in that. 
Allison Kugel: I want to talk to you about Defund the Police. I read where you are not in favor of it, and I’m definitely not for it. Rather than defund the police, I am of the mind that some funds should be reallocated towards programs for compassion, empathy, tolerance, psychological competency, and things like that. What are your thoughts?
Reverend Al Sharpton: I think that we should redistribute how we do the resources like dealing with some of the things you outlined. A month after we did the eulogies for George Floyd, I did a eulogy for a 17-year-old kid killed by a stray bullet in the Bronx, and a eulogy for a one-year old baby that was killed by a straight bullet in Brooklyn. How can we say we don’t need policing when our communities are disproportionately victims of crime? We are the only community that has reasonable fear of cops and robbers. I think we need to reallocate how we deal with the funds for police. We must have police in presence because right now we are inundating our communities with guns and drugs, and that is reality. Ironically though, I think what people don’t understand, Allison, is the one who has defunded the police is Trump. By Trump ineffectively handling COVID-19, most of these cities are going to be in deficit and will be laying off police. That is a bigger threat than people stating it at rallies. They have run out of funds. They are laying off teachers and policeman in some cities. Allison Kugel: Good point. And whether you love Trump or hate him, every American should be aware that an important part of our democracy is a free press, as well as our postal service. When you have somebody in the highest office in the land who essentially gaslights the American public and says, “You can’t trust the media, you can’t trust the medical experts; only believe Me,” that is very dangerous rhetoric and undermines our democracy. Why do you think so many Trump supporters aren't seeing that? Reverend Al Sharpton: It baffles me on one level, and on another level, I think because the country is so divided, and they have been divided by the media. The media has convinced people that everybody but FOX {News] and a few radio talk show guys are buffaloing you or fooling you. They set a climate where a guy like Trump, who really is representing himself almost as an autocrat, can rise up and take advantage of that. He can say, "Don’t believe them, believe me. I’m one of you." There is nobody more not one of them than Trump, with the glitzy billionaire lifestyle he lives. Whether he is a real billionaire or not, we don’t know. But he’s been able to sell that to people who are suffering through existence issues that are lower-middle class or poor, like I grew up. It's appealing to them that they are doing this to me, and he has identified "they" as the liberal media. He gives everybody a blame game. In the interim, he does policies that don’t help them, but that they can feel that it is not his fault, instead it’s their fault. Allison Kugel: Throwing it back to the 2016 presidential election, do you think Hillary Clinton was a strong and viable candidate? Reverend Al Sharpton: I think she was a strong and viable candidate, but she did not run a strong and viable campaign. They did not engage the ground enough. To lose Michigan by 12,000 votes, I know three churches that could have given her that. They never went into Detroit. They never really went into Milwaukee. I think there was almost this feeling of, "We got this. Nobody is going to vote for Trump." She certainly had the credentials. I think she had the vision, and I think she is a decent person. I knew her since she was First Lady, but I think her campaign was too up in the air, too high ground. They didn't get on the ground, and that is where the voters were. It left an opening for Trump to do it. I think that Biden has not run that campaign so far. Allison Kugel: Meaning he has been on the ground? Reverend Al Sharpton: He has been on the ground and he has his infrastructure on the ground. Allison Kugel: As a Jewish American, this next question is more personal. There is a faction of the Black American movement that has become antisemitic as of late. It's confounding to me based on our shared history and a lot of our shared activism. How can we clear up some of these misconceptions? Reverend Al Sharpton: We need to stand and walk together and go back to the history. When I was a kid, I will never forget, Reverend Jackson brought me to the Jewish Theological Seminary, and I met Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel who marched with Dr. King. Rabbi Heschel gave me a collection of his books and I still have some, like God and Man, and some others. There are people like Heschel, who were part of the backbone of the Civil Rights Movement. I tell a lot of people today that when we talk about voting rights, Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner, were three Jews who died to get us the right to vote. I don’t think enough of us talk about that in the Black community. And yes, we may have had our disagreements, but the history of it is not put out enough and we have to deliberately deal with the misnomer that we have not come together and suffered together. I remember when 9/11 happened. I went to Mort Zuckerman, who was then the head of the Conference of Jewish Organizations, and I said I want to go to Israel and identify with the fact that they live under this kind of terrorism all the time, and we just went through it in New York. [Former Israeli President] Shimon Peres invited me as his guest to Israel and I went and met with him. He asked me to take that message to [Yasser] Arafat. He set up a meeting with [Yasser] Arafat (late Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization), and I went and worked with them. There are people on both sides that don’t want to let certain things go, but we have to keep standing up and represent the facts of history. We've suffered together, we've fought together, and at this time we cannot afford to be separate. We are fighting the same enemy. Most people that are racist are also antisemitic, and those who are antisemitic are mostly racist. We are connected and we need to stop acting like we are not. Allison Kugel: I like that. A big part of your organization, the National Action Network, is Criminal Justice Reform. Recently Kim Kardashian worked with President Trump to have the life sentence of Alice Marie Johnson, a nonviolent offender, commuted. Would you ever be open to following suit and working with this current administration on Criminal Justice Reform? Reverend Al Sharpton: I don’t trust Trump. I did support the [Emergency Community Supervision Act of 2020] bill that Corey Booker and Hakeem Jeffries came to me with. They said, "Even though we are working with Jared Kushner, would you support this bill?" Van Jones called me, and he was working very closely with Jared Kushner. I said, "I’m not going to do photo ops with them, but I support the bill." I went on my show and endorsed the bill. I think you have to put principle over personality, but I don't want a photo opp with this president. He called me after he won and invited me to Mar-A-Lago, and I wouldn’t go because I believe he is just a cynical manipulator. Even bad people can sometimes deliver good results, and I didn’t want to get in the way of the results. I wanted to support it even though I do not trust him. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Lastly, there has been a lot of rioting and looting mixed in with peaceful protesting. Your organization's famous slogan is, “No Justice, No Peace.” Do you want to clear up, for people, what you mean by that? Reverend Al Sharpton: It means the only way we are going to have real peace, where we can live together as a society that respects each other, is to have justice. I don’t mean "no peace" in the sense of violence. I am absolutely, unequivocally against violence. I have denounced it everywhere and will continue to. As far as the two cops shot in Louisville, Kentucky, I think it is morally wrong. You cannot become like the people you are fighting. If you become like that, if you have the same values and the same moral code, they have already defeated you. At the same time, I think there’s a difference between peace and quiet. Quiet means just shut up and suffer. Peace means let’s strive to work together even if we've got to march and make noise together to get an equal society for everybody. That is what I mean by “No Justice, No Peace.” Rise Up: Confronting A Country At The Crossroads, the latest book by Reverend Al Sharpton, is out Tuesday, September 29, 2020, everywhere books are sold. Visit www.alsharptonbooks.com for links to purchase. Follow Reverend Sharpton on Instagram @real_sharpton and on Twitter @thereval. To learn more about the National Action Network (NAN), visit www.nationalactionnetwork.net. Photo of Reverend Al Sharpton Courtesy of Michael Frost. Book Cover Art, Courtesy of Hanover Square Press Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture columnist and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. 
By Allison Kugel
Filmmakers Rebecca and Josh Tickell, along with music royalty, Julian Lennon, have worked tirelessly to produce the film, Kiss the Ground, an important documentary coming to Netflix on September 22nd. The film could not come at a better time, when our planet and the living beings that inhabit it are in need of healing on a grand scale. This film takes a close look at our earth's most powerful unsung hero, our soil. We quite literally cannot live without it. Julian Lennon, the first-born son of late Beatles legend John Lennon and his late first wife, Cynthia Powell Lennon, grew up with the weighty knowledge that his father changed the landscape of popular music forever. His mother was a singer, songwriter and artist in her own right who also went on to make her mark on both British and American popular culture. Julian's own music career has delivered beautifully composed and vocalized hits like Too Late For Goodbyes, Valotte and Saltwater, an impassioned song about humans' destruction to our planet. Julian Lennon has devoted the majority of his life to humanitarian work with his White Feather Foundation (the white feather is a nod to Lennon's late father, John), bringing life-saving natural resources to people in developing nations around and doing his part to safeguard our environment. Lennon's latest project is the film, Kiss the Ground, where he came on board as the film's Executive Producer, ensuring the project had the talent, funding and resources it needed to be seen by as many of us as possible. Filmmakers Rebecca and Josh Tickell are tireless and extraordinarily gifted documentary filmmakers who co-wrote and co-directed Kiss the Ground, and as Rebecca Tickell explains, "Due to COVID-19, never has there been a time on our planet when wellness has been such a priority for so many. When most of us think about wellness we think of our own bodies. It is easy to miss that our wellness is a function of the ecosystem we live in." "It's a healthy ecosystem, healthy soil, and healthy food that leads to healthy people," says Josh Tickell. "The inverse is also true, and we are living the proof of that now. If we want to live to our fullest potential as the caretakers of this great garden we call earth, we need better manuals, better narratives, and a better framework for co-existing with our beautiful planet." With their film, Kiss the Ground, their goal is to tell a new story, which in some ways is an ancient story of how to live in a way that creates the most health for the most people, while also regenerating the ecosystem that sustains us. When I ask the Tickells what Julian Lennon's involvement has brought to their film, they tell me Lennon is "a rare human being with magical gifts." In 2011, Lennon serendipitously attended a party that Rebecca and Josh Tickell were hosting at the Cannes Film Festival for the premiere of their film, The Big Fix, and remained in touch. "He was so moved by the idea of Kiss the Ground," Josh Tickell beams, "that he came on board as an Executive Producer and has been helping ever since." In addition to Julian Lennon's work behind the camera, Woody Harrelson, Ian Somerhalder, Patricia and David Arquette, Rosario Dawson, Jason Mraz, Gisele Bundchen and Tom Brady appear in the film. Their collective passion for cultivating a healthier planet is obvious from the moment they each step onto the screen. Allison Kugel: You came on board as Executive Producer of Kiss the Ground later on in production. Did you learn about the film through your White Feather Foundation? Julian Lennon: I heard about the film through a longtime English friend, Darius Fisher, who is an incredible editor and producer, himself. I knew of some of his previous work with Rebecca and Josh Tickell (co-directors/writers of "Kiss the Ground") and I always loved the stuff that Josh and Rebecca have done. A few years ago, Darius said they were in the early stages of this interesting project called Kiss the Ground and were looking for guidance, support, and sponsorship; whatever I could possibly bring to the table. They showed me some of the earlier [footage] and immediately I fell in love with the project and wanted to be part of it. Allison Kugel: In our modern times most of us are quite disconnected from how we get our food. When we think of food insecurity, people equate it with money or the lack thereof. Most people think if they have plenty of money, they will always have plenty of food. Obviously, money is a key element here, but the part of the equation that people are missing is that the true source of our ability to feed ourselves, the true wealth, is in the earth and in our soil, which is currently compromised and proving to be a finite resource. Julian Lennon: Yes, absolutely. I think 80% or 90% of people don't realize the value in soil and its health. That is one of the points that comes across in this film. Without healthy soil, we’re all screwed. As they say in the film, there are more organisms in a handful of soil than there are billions of stars in the universe. Trying to get your head around that to start with is a pretty big one, but understanding that biodiversity in our soil and in our food is such an important relationship for us and all living species is key. It's about understanding and tying that to microclimates and how one thing leads to another. Without one, the other cannot survive. It is a necessity to keep the soil, and your localized soil, as healthy as it possibly can be. It is for the benefit of all. We could talk about this for hours (laugh). Allison Kugel: Up through the very early 20th century, human beings had to work much harder for their food. They had to work hard to eat. They had to plant their fruits and vegetables, milk their own cows, raise their own chickens, cultivate their own eggs. As a result, I think they were much more connected to the life cycle and what it takes to feed ourselves. Julian Lennon: Correct. And a lot of my friends and I now have greenhouses. I’m now growing all my own vegetables. I think a lot of people are really beginning to understand, especially in today's world where a lot of people are becoming sick, the relationship between health and food. In today's world you see so many people becoming sick from chemicals that are put, not only into our water, but the run-off from the methods of farming of the last 50 years. These so-called modern farming methods have gone on to destroy so much goodness in the world. A lot of people are finally recognizing the relationship between these chemicals and the way farming is done today, and their own health. The cancer rates are up tenfold, if not one hundred-fold, from what they used to be. I honestly believe it all comes down to what we have been feeding ourselves over the last 50 years, and even before that. I also think a lot of us were not aware of that situation, and I wouldn't say only governments are to blame, but certain farming cultures were doing this without our knowledge in their farming on such a mass scale. Allison Kugel: There were two things explained in this film that I didn't know. One, I thought tilling the land was a good thing. I thought you had to till the land to plant seeds. As it turns out, tilling the land degrades and deteriorates our earth's soil. Two, I thought dirt and soil were synonymous. After becoming educated from this documentary, I am a bit embarrassed about what I didn't know, but grateful to have learned it. Julian Lennon: Well, in the film you can see that we are actually educating farmers on how to farm properly again, and to realize that at the end of the day, even with finances coming into play, doing it organically is not only healthier for everybody, but you can make a better buck out of it, and know that you’re doing the right thing for everybody involved. It's not only for this generation but for generations to come. 
Allison Kugel: I'm glad this documentary found a home at Netflix, because Netflix has become this amazing superhighway of information for people.
Julian Lennon: I absolutely agree with that. Netflix is a good home, but it still needs to be seen and still needs to be heard. I have personally felt that there is still a lot of crap out there with some of the documentaries coming forward, that have no clarity to them. What I believe with our film Kiss the Ground is there is absolute clarity and absolute awareness of solutions within our film. With a lot of the documentaries I see these days, they leave you wondering, "Well, what do I do next? What are the answers?" Thankfully, I think this film leaves you with answers as to what we can do to make a difference and have a healthier world and a healthier planet. Allison Kugel: Let's talk about composting. There was a part of the film I thought was interesting, where they were showing how in San Francisco, composting has become a way of life for the entire city. Everyone has their compost bins and civil servants collect everyone's compost along with all other recyclables like plastic and paper. Can you explain exactly what composting is and how people can compost on their own? Julian Lennon: I'm not a scientist. I'm a layman too (laugh). Allison Kugel: Well, from one layman to another (laughs). From your personal experience… Julian Lennon: All I do know is that with the breakdown of food, I compost at home, and it helps regenerate the soil and fertilize the soil that I'm using to grow my own food in. Allison Kugel: How do you compost at home? Share with us how you do that. Julian Lennon. I have a compost bin (new and used compost bins are available for just about any budget) that all leftover food scraps go into, and that stays in there for a few months at a time. Then I use that as a fertilizer for the food that I'm growing. That's how it operates and how it has worked for me. It's fantastic, the way it works. Allison Kugel: So, you just put the loose scraps of organic food waste into a compost bin, let it sit for a recommended amount of time so that it can break down, and then you add it to your soil? Julian Lennon: You've got it. I've only just started getting into all of this myself, since this lovely year started (laughs), so I'm a newbie. All I know is that it works, and it is a good way to move forward chemical-free. I’m also out at a few garden centers these days, which I love to do, and they now have professional compost bins. There are a few I have my eye on. I just need a few moments to dig in and do my research on which ones are the best for my situation. The pro ones make it so easy to compost your food. They’re not an expensive thing to do, and I think if you are going to try and grow your own food in whatever capacity, composting is going to be a much better thing for the overall health of your food, your soil and our planet. Allison Kugel: I know you are an Executive Producer on this film. However, I'm curious why you didn't want to be on camera? People should know about the work you do advocating for natural resources all over the world. Julian Lennon: I never saw myself in the project as such. I came along as a supporter to bring all the elements together. Had we sat down and talked about it, I would have been there in a heartbeat to do it. I was coming in as a friend, as a supporter, and I just didn't see it from that perspective, in terms of being in the film. For the most part, it was a project where we already had most of its parts filled in. Yes, I could have jumped in there, but it didn't need me. I don’t think this will be the last film of this kind that I'll be supporting. So, perhaps next time around. I'm just glad I was able to be there to introduce this to outside sponsors and supporters, and that other producers came on board. Allison Kugel: One bit of information in the film is that we only have enough healthy and fertile topsoil for about 60 more years of harvesting. That really blew me away. Julian Lennon: There are absolute changes that we could still implement to turn the negative around on all the environmental and humanitarian issues we face. There are some amazing professionals in this world that are working so hard regardless of political scenarios and governmental problems and trying to turn things around. There are incredible people at hand that really are doing the best they can. Certainly, I would have to say Josh and Rebecca and this film sit at the top of the table, if not at the head of the table, with trying to put forward a positive change for environmental and humanitarian issues moving forward Allison Kugel: What is the connection between eating locally grown, organic plant-based food and protecting or regenerating the soil on our planet? Julian Lennon: A long time ago I was at a dinner in the UK sitting next to the [Italian] actress Greta Scacchi. At the time I was young and into the pop world, and really hadn't been involved in environmental issues at all at that stage. But she said to me at the dinner table, "Excuse my French, but why are they serving this fucking Evian water when we could be drinking locally sourced water?!" She really went off on it, and I couldn't understand what it was all about at first. Then, of course, she went into explaining and she began to change my thinking about all of this. Greta raised the important point, "Why are they shipping bottles of water around the world to other parts of the world?" And just discussing the insanity of it all made sense to me. The cost of it, the pollution of it, alone… we're talking 30 years ago and I was horrified to learn about that scenario and what it's doing to our world, not only the soil but the oceans too. That moment made a heavy imprint on me and it's been a long time now that I just shop locally. I know the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker in my local areas now. I know everything about where things come from, and it’s all locally orientated. 
Allison Kugel: How has buying locally changed your life for the better?
Julian Lennon: For my personal experience, I have all kinds of allergies. Certainly, since I have been eating locally grown food and honey, I have not had any of the issues that I had before with allergies or illnesses. You become part of the little universe you inhabit, and I think that's an important role each of us can play. Obviously, it is more difficult when you're living in cities. But I also know there are a lot of projects moving forward where in some cities, a lot of buildings are now incorporating the growing of food within interior greenhouses or even rooftops of cities. Some cities are now designing buildings with the idea that they are almost living buildings. Allison Kugel: There are urban co-op gardens. I know people who have started some. Julian Lennon: It's a major step forward. I eat what is available when it's available, locally. For me, that has made a major difference in life and I think this film also is a step towards other people understanding how it benefits all of us. Allison Kugel: I have to ask you the spiritual question that I ask everyone. What do you think you came into this life as Julian Lennon to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach? Julian Lennon: I would have to say that it's about compassion and empathy. I obviously have found myself in a very unique position in life, and I’ve had a choice in which direction I could've gone in. I believe that really it was my mother (the late Cynthia Powell Lennon, first wife of the late John Lennon) on the spiritual front who influenced me, through discovering and observing what she went through in her life. It made me a better person, and I wanted to make her proud in anything and everything that I was doing. To do that one needs to be as good a person as one can be. I have obviously taken that on board and that has been a hugely important lesson for me. Because of the choices I have made, I've been able to travel around the world, from the standpoint of my photography, and also with the White Feather Foundation (Lennon's non-profit foundation). Allison Kugel: What are some of your past charitable excursions you are most proud of? Julian Lennon: Oh, going to Ethiopia to see the water wells, going to Colombia and meeting with the Kogi Tribe, which is one of the oldest tribes around. Doing a documentary about the Aboriginals in Australia. Not that I do it to feel good, but I do feel better as a person when I'm trying to do better work and educate people further, whether that's through music, photography, documentary films, or otherwise. I also feel you cannot shove this stuff down people’s throats. It is about affecting the right balance and causing enough interested people to want to do something about it or want to learn more. I feel I've been pretty good at that, whether it's been through songs like Saltwater or through the documentary work, or through my photography. That's all part of my purpose, I think. It's passing on the education, the world education that I have learned through the travels of work that I do. Sometimes, especially with the news and the world today, things have become so insular that you forget there is another world out there. Allison Kugel: What do you hope the audience will take away from watching this film? Julian Lennon: I hate to be blunt, but if you kill the soil, you kill yourself. We all depend on each other, from the smallest atom to the largest living organisms in this world. We are all connected. That is what I think people must realize. When you do something, it affects not only you, but everybody else too. Being aware of that allows you to be a bit more understanding in the problems that we face. Allison Kugel: What can people do in their own community to contribute to the rejuvenation of our earth and our soil? Julian Lennon: Do everything locally. That is what my takeaway from this film, Kiss the Ground, and this movement would be. Not only on the pollution front and the horrendous stuff we do in the world, but by keeping it local you can keep it clean, and fresh. That is the important takeaway. Photo Credits: Big Picture Ranch, Deborah Anderson for Julian Lennon Images The new movie Kiss the Ground, premiering September 22nd on Netflix, focuses on soil regeneration and how it can help climate control. Visit KissTheGround.com and follow on Instagram @kissthegroundmovie. You can also join the movement on Instagram @kisstheground. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist and author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. 
Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Nev Schulman
By Allison Kugel
While the world may still be socially distancing, people are online now more than ever looking for connections and answers. The eighth season of MTV's Catfish: The TV Show will go to the ends of the internet to find them. For the first time ever, Executive Producer and host Nev Schulman and co-host Kamie Crawford work together, remotely, to do what they do best: track down the truth. This season, Nev and Kamie have their work cut out for them as they must play by new rules, encounter new obstacles and dive headfirst into the world’s "new normal" to uncover lies and potentially find true love. Allison Kugel: When the pandemic hit, whose idea was it to take Catfish: The TV Show virtual? Nev Schulman: I don’t know if it was one person’s idea. We know that obviously most of the entertainment industry was going to be shut down. A lot of shows, because they require a studio audience or a lot of people on set, couldn't resume production. It occurred to us that our show, in many ways, already exists in a digital world. While we do love the aspect of the show where we travel and meet people, and the whole idea of finally bringing virtual interactions into the real world, that doesn't change the core function of our show, which is just to get the trace on someone. We all looked at each other and thought, "Is there a version of the show where we can do it from home via Zoom?" We did the first episode and right away we all saw that it does work, and we were super excited. Allison Kugel: Although most people are meeting online these days, I can’t imagine that I would be motivated to continue to build a relationship with somebody without ever actually seeing them in person, or at least on video. What causes a person to develop deep feelings for somebody without ever actually seeing that person? Nev Schulman: I liken it to the banks of a river. I don’t know if you did this exercise in science class as a kid, but riverbanks generally start mostly straight with a smaller stream, if you will. Then, over time slight imperfections in the direction of the water create deeper and deeper grooves and the river ends up sneaking its way through a valley, or whatever. I think that is what happens in these relationships. They start out small and innocent and seemingly straight forward, but as the relationship flows and days go by, those twists and turns start to cut their way in, and groove into a relationship. Before you notice, all of a sudden you are months and months into this thing and you’re so far down the river that it’s too late to turn back. I think that’s how it happens, very slowly and you almost don’t even notice it happening. Allison Kugel: Wow, interesting analogy. Where did the term "Catfish" come from? Nev Schulman: We heard a story when we were making the documentary film, Catfish, back in 2008. Our film was a story about a woman who had, in fact, catfished me, the way a fisherman used to use catfish to chase cod around in the tank of these giant fishing boats. In life, there are people who kind of do the same thing, who make everyday kind of interesting and exciting, and kind of just keep us all guessing and on our toes. So, we thought it was a beautiful analogy for Angela, the woman who catfished me, and what an interesting and unexpected name for the film, and subsequently the show. So, it started off as a reference to that story, but it has now become part of the English language. It’s just so wild. Allison Kugel: If that never happened to you, and your film, Catfish, which documented your own journey, had never been made, where do you think you would be today? Did you have any different career plans? Nev Schulman: I was involved at that time in film and photography, but more specifically, in dance. I danced in live performances, at weddings, bar mitzvahs, things like that. While I knew I didn’t want that to be my lifelong career, I wasn't sure what I was going to do next. I had actually flown out to California before Catfish the film was released to interview with an old boss of mine who I had worked for at BMW motorcycles in New York. I thought I would move to California and just get a job in Riverside at BMW and see where that takes me. Who knew this would have happened? But I often think about that. Where would I be? What would I be doing? It’s crazy, because I really don’t know. Allison Kugel: Life is crazy! Do you ever sit back and reflect about how your personal experience with heartbreak and being catfished led to your television career and this pop culture phenomenon of sorts? Nev Schulman: I do. I think about it every time I film an episode, because it gives me a lot of satisfaction to know that the experiences that the people are having on the show might just be the thing that changes the direction of their lives for the better. I always encourage people at the end of each show that when faced with what feels like a heartbreaking and unsatisfying result, to think about the fact that this experience might change their lives. Someone might see it and reach out to them, or any number of things might come of it, and just to keep yourself open; don’t shut down. Let this be sort of an opening of a door and invite new things into your life and see what happens. Allison Kugel: I like that. What kind of feelings come up when you have to break the news to someone, who thinks they’re in love, that the person they’re in love with is not on the level? Nev Schulman: I have developed a combination of maturity and experience that I would liken to when a doctor has to tell someone that a family member is very ill or might pass away. No one wants to hear that, and it’s not good news. But it’s necessary and I think giving someone the truth, no matter how undesirable, is always beneficial. I wish I didn’t have to do that, but at the same time I think there is an expectation and understanding of people on our show, that for them to need to go to this extent and put themselves out there in this way to get this person to finally reveal themselves, they probably aren’t going to get what they are hoping for. I’m really just delivering what they have been avoiding, and probably intentionally avoiding, for a long time. I think they really just want the truth and they know it might not be what they want, but they’re relieved to get it. 
Allison Kugel: How do you feel about the thrill of the detective work and chasing after the truth? Do you get excited by that aspect of it?
Nev Schulman: It is really fun. It's frustrating because sometimes you really don’t get a lot, and you have to kind of rethink your initial strategies and go back and see if you missed something. I don’t know what it is about these remote episodes, but we spent more time looking through comments this season. I think because more people had been home and were actively on social media, people were commenting more. There was more social media content to sift through and pull from on people's pages. That part has been really interesting and fun and led to a lot more breaks in stories and clues than with previously seasons of the show. Allison Kugel: Have you ever, personally, misled or concealed information from somebody you were interested in romantically for fear of rejection? Nev Schulman: The first answer that comes to mind is yes, but probably in regard to the tramp stamp that I used to have on my lower back. Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Nev Schulman: In high school I got this dumb tattoo that I thought was really cool, but quickly realized that it wasn’t, after I had already committed to it. I used to kind of hide it for as long as I could when it came to dating girls because I wasn’t sure how they might react. But I don’t have that problem anymore. I had it removed and feel much better about myself (laughs). Allison Kugel: Okay, that’s pretty harmless… and funny. What is your current relationship with social media these days? Nev Schulman: I would say it's neutral. I haven’t been posting very much. I really have to actively convince myself that I should be posting, because it doesn’t feel like there is much that I can do right now other than support social and political movements I believe in. I think for that function it is invaluable, but I feel very insignificant as an individual up against the current issues that are far more important than myself. Now that I have my kids and my job, I’m happy in my life. I think the more content you are the less you need social media to fill whatever void it might be filling for you. Allison Kugel: I would agree. Nev Schulman: I still find that I like to scroll on Instagram, and I do follow accounts that inspire me, whether it's design accounts for home decoration or architecture. I also love old cars, so I follow stuff on some accounts that post cool cars for sale and I muse about whether I should buy one. It's a nice distraction, but with all of the conflict and misinformation out there, my general feeling is that if we significantly eliminated social media, we might all be better off. But then again, there are such great social changes happening as a direct result of the community that exists through the internet, so it’s really a double-edged sword for me. Allison Kugel: What kind of impact do you think Catfish: The TV Show and your MTV platform is having on adolescents and young adults who watch the show and follow you? Nev Schulman: I can only hope and speak to the sort of things people have said to me, directly. I hope the show is having a positive effect on people, both young and old, because the thing that was most highlighted for me after the documentary, Catfish, in terms of what people said to me was how surprised and relieved and impressed they were in terms of how we handle things. People specifically liked the way we handled the situation with my relationship with Angela, the woman who catfished me. We handled it with so much compassion and understanding. We gave her an opportunity to tell her story, and we took the time to understand, although it's not an excuse, the reasons and motivation that led to the lies she created. I think the show, if it does nothing else, gives people a much-needed respite from the constant judging and cancelling and teasing and bullying that takes place in everyday life. It shows people that even when someone does something that warrants being scolded or yelled at or cancelled, you can still be compassionate. You can take the time to sit down and engage with them in a mature way, and give them the opportunity to explain themselves. You can, both, learn from them and teach them, and hopefully they can learn from their mistakes and everyone leaves feeling better. It’s hard to find things these days where you feel better after you experience them. I hope that is the enduring legacy of the show; how we can all be a little more compassionate with each other and with ourselves. 
Allison Kugel: How did you know you were in love with your wife, Laura, and how did it differ from your relationship with Angela, the woman who catfished you more than a decade ago?
Nev Schulman: The girl I thought I was in love with, the character she made up was called "Megan." In addition to my relationship with Megan/Angela who catfished me, I did have other long-term meaningful relationships starting in college, and all of them had been fantastic. I had been in love. I knew I was in love with my wife, Laura, in a moment that was so special and cinematic that you would only see it in movies or read it in stories. I looked at her and it was only the second weekend that we were together. We were on the beach and we had been laying down for a while hanging out. She just sort of popped up, she ran out into the ocean, she was splashing around and started running back and forth. I just remember looking at her and thinking, "Wow. This is a moment I don’t want to ever forget and I’m in love with this woman." I never had that before. I never felt that moment where your heart just sort of says to your brain, "This is important. Don’t forget this." All of my past relationships have had incredible levels of intimacy and love, but somehow I guess I hadn’t quite met or wasn’t quite ready to meet the person who I would really click with in that way. Not love at first sight, but love at second or third sight. Allison Kugel: It's interesting and worth noting that the special moment you are talking about, there is no way that moment could have happened digitally or virtually, right? Nev Schulman: That is true. Allison Kugel: That was an in-the-flesh moment. Nev Schulman: Yes, that was. Absolutely. Allison Kugel: What is your biggest regret and how did you process and deal with it? Nev Schulman: I had a friend who I met in kindergarten and we became best friends up through middle school and high school. Sophomore year of college we were working on a film project together and got into a stupid argument and ended up getting into a physical altercation. After that fight things just weren’t the same, and it also created some tension because my brother and my friend's brother, we were all friends. Our families were friends. It was just an unfortunate experience and I didn’t really talk to him for a while. It was super important because it taught me an incredibly valuable lesson that I needed in order to understand myself better. It taught me about getting a better sense of control over my emotions and my temper. It forever changed my friendship with him and we're not close the way we used to be, even fifteen years later. It’s a bummer, but it was just like getting catfished, in that a bad experience changed my life and my path in a way that I’m so grateful for, but I definitely miss my friend. Allison Kugel: And, on a brighter note, what is your single greatest sense of pride? Nev Schulman: One version of this answer is everyday there are a million small moments that make up a relationship. In my situation, I would say my marriage and my family. I think my choice to commit to my wife, to start our family. Everyone is going through difficult times lately, but to really be committed to my family gives me a tremendous sense of accomplishment. It’s not easy all the time. Sometimes it’s really hard, but it's something that gets more and more valuable and fulfilling every day. The new season of Catfish: The TV Show premieres with all-virtual episodes, August 5th at 8/7c on MTV. Photos courtesy of MTV Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist and author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. 
Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Michael Phelps
By Allison Kugel
With his unmatched agility and speed in the water, Michael Phelps holds the all-time record for Olympic gold medals earned. The closest thing to Aquaman, on two legs, Phelps, like many pro-athletes who have reach his rarified status, was placed on a pedestal that was unsustainable. For more than a decade, Michael Phelps' life was a relentless march towards breaking Olympic records, out-swimming his competition as he trained and traveled the world collecting gold medals and corporate endorsement deals. His seemingly flawless athleticism and boy-next-door charm made him seem unstoppable. The bloom first came off the rose in 2004, when Phelps was arrested for driving under the influence. That embarrassing event was compounded in 2009, when pictures of Phelps allegedly smoking from a bong went viral, finding their way into mass tabloid circulation. The final nail in the coffin for Phelps was a second DUI in 2014, which he now describes as "the bottom of my bottom," leading to deep depression and spurning him to seek help for issues that had plagued him since his younger years. The rough road to redemption ultimately instilled a passion in Michael Phelps for mental health awareness and advocacy. Rejecting a tragic end to his story, Phelps dusted himself off and made his comeback at the 2016 Summer Olympics, breaking further records and winning over fans who had doubted him. Now, a devoted husband and father of three boys, Phelps insists that the second chapter of his life will make his storied time in the water look like a dress rehearsal for what's to come. Through his Phelps Foundation, he tirelessly champions the sport of swimming, fitness initiatives and healthy lifestyle choices for young people. Phelps continues to dedicate his time and resources to a cause close to his heart, that of mental health research and awareness. The Weight of Gold, an HBO Sports documentary film, executive produced and narrated by Phelps, delves into the lives and careers of celebrated Olympians as it unpacks the mental health ramifications of the long term, restrictive and singularly focused pursuit of Olympic greatness and stardom that Phelps has achieved. According to HBO, "The Weight of Gold seeks to inspire discussion about mental health issues, encourage people to seek help, and highlight the need for readily available support." Allison Kugel: I watched your documentary The Weight of Gold, and you really go deep into the emotional effects of life as an Olympian. The public may watch this film and not understand how somebody who has achieved so much can feel such profound unhappiness, because our society loves to equate success with happiness. Michael Phelps: The hardest thing for me is when friends of mine say something like that to me. My response is I am a human being. I have these feelings just like other people do. People seem surprised when I say that. Speaking for myself, for most of my life I felt like I was not a human being, so until I was able to look at myself in the mirror and see that I was a person and not just a swimmer, that's when I starting realizing what I was going through, emotionally, and what I was living with and struggling with. Allison Kugel: Is it safe to say that when you devote your entire life entirely to a single pursuit, you don’t get to know yourself or have the chance to develop that emotional intelligence needed to cope with disappointments or problems as they come up? Michael Phelps: It's difficult to start a journey at such a young age when you miss so much of your developmental stages. I was 15 and thrown into competing a world where I was competing with 30-year-old men and expected not to be a 15-year-old kid, but a grownup. At some point I just got numb by it all. You train yourself to not pay attention to how you feel, and before too long you are blindsided by it all. And if you do show emotions, you are showing your competitors weakness. I could not show that part of myself until the last two years of my career when I got to the point where I really didn't care what people thought about me. It was at that point where I opened up and decided to talk about the struggles I had been going through. Allison Kugel: Can you tell me what was your highest moment what was? What was your absolute zenith moment in your life when you just felt absolutely high and on top of the world? Michael Phelps: It had to have been in 2008, after winning 8 gold medals. Achieving that singular goal of doing something no one else has done before. That was the highest point right there. Allison Kugel: By the way, you are in my refrigerator right now. You're on a milk carton (Michael is a brand ambassador for Silk plant-based beverages), but for something good. Not because you're missing (laugh). Michael Phelps: I love it (laugh)! Allison Kugel: Can you tell me what the lowest moment of your life was, where you knew you were in trouble? Michael Phelps: In 2014, getting a second DUI, and not wanting to be alive. Allison Kugel: Not wanting to be alive, why? Michael Phelps: Just the feeling of letting so many people down. Leading up to that point I was trying to call out for help, and I did not really know how to call out for help at that time. That was the bottom of my bottom. I was just basically on an elevator headed straight down. Allison Kugel: Who rallied around you at your lowest moment? Michael Phelps: Leading up to that rock bottom moment I didn’t have a single person, because I was pushing everybody away and at that point it was the people who cared about me the most that I was pushing away. That would be a handful of friends and family. Allison Kugel: I remember reading about the drugs and the DUIs in the news and I think as the reading or viewing public, we are all, myself included, guilty of forgetting we are consuming news about a human being. You read about someone who has it all and does something stupid and it makes no sense. The reason it makes no sense is because you don't really know that person or what their day to day life is about. It is probably isolating for you, being that person, in the public eye that people see as infallible. Is that why you ended up self-medicating, do you think? Michael Phelps: It is probably part of the reason I did that. I was trying to escape and numb myself, and I was trying to get away from everybody. I think some of the things I did were really my cries for help, and they were looked past. But again, I really didn't know how to ask for help, and I didn't want to be rejected if somebody couldn’t or wouldn't help me. After discovering that a lot of my struggles were based in my childhood and based in my parents splitting when I was very young not really growing up with my dad, I was able to try to tackle that part things. I still speak with [my dad] from time to time, but that was a non-existent relationship for so long. We do speak now, but it's on my terms. Once I dealt with all of that and I got through that, it just kind of got easier. Allison Kugel: Do you think the media understands the gravity of their responsibility when they are covering people in the public eye, and how it could potentially impact their mental health? Michael Phelps: I think, like you said, that’s a difficult thing for everybody to see, right? Because we never really understand what people are personally going through. So, I would say it’s a general statement that could be applied across the board and just with journalists. Allison Kugel: How have your wife and children contributed to your healing process? Michael Phelps: My wife has been the biggest and most influential person. She has been there for me through some of my struggles. Being together during this quarantine, with so many unknowns for everybody, it's been some more difficult times, and my wife and I have probably pressed each other’s buttons, but not on purpose (laughs). But we have been fortunate enough to grow and learn together, and that is something I am forever grateful for. I was actually afraid as hell of going through this quarantine process and some of our conversations that have come up, and of becoming vulnerable, but that’s part of growing up and learning. Overall, I think the journey with her is something I can look back on and be proud of how I’ve enjoyed this experience with her. Allison Kugel: What is your relationship with fame today, as opposed to a decade ago? Michael Phelps: I don't know that I have a relationship with fame. For the majority of my career I would say I didn’t really think about it because I was just focused on swimming. Everything else just came along with it. At this point, my wife and I live our lives how we want and don’t really let anything affect that. We are laid back, relaxed people. We don’t go out a lot. We are homebodies, in general, so the quarantine has almost helped us in that respect (laugh). In some odd way, our relationship has benefited even more from it. Allison Kugel: It’s an introvert’s paradise, right? Michael Phelps: Yes (laugh)! Allison Kugel: How do you quell stress and anxiety? Michael Phelps: I don’t even know how to put it into words. My scariest days are dark. My scary moments, in general, feel like I can’t do anything right. It feels like the whole world is out to get me. On those days it’s almost better for me to fall asleep and wake up tomorrow. That’s how I feel when I have days like that. I know I need to get into the swimming pool. I know I need to get into the gym even more, just because that’s my calming place. Swimming is therapeutic for me and working out is something I do every day because it’s all I know and it’s the only thing I’ve done consistently for 20 years (laugh). Being regimented helps me be my best; that and taking quiet time for myself. That's one thing my wife and I are both good at. If we aren't taking time for ourselves, the other one is very pushy about making sure we each take that time. If our glasses aren’t full, we can’t help our three kids. 
Allison Kugel: Because of all the Olympic gold medals you have won, people would define you as "great." How do you define and identify greatness? I ask, because while watching The Weight of Gold, you and other Olympians talk about the price of achieving Olympic greatness, and the toll it takes…
Michael Phelps: Would I change anything? Probably not, to be honest. It is all allowed me to be who I am today. If it had to take me going through some of the scariest moments to look at myself and love who I see today, then it is all okay. I think greatness is a bunch of small things done well. That is really all it is. If you look at any of the greats in history, in sports or whatever, we basically all do it the same way. There is no real rocket science behind it. It is hard work, dedication, not giving up and pushing through. I do think there are healthier ways and smarter ways to do it, and people who see this film or people who are going through these things now, hopefully they can see that there is a healthier way to do it than what we’ve done in the past. Allison Kugel: When I interviewed Mike Tyson, he told me that you can’t be happy and be great. He felt that at the height of his boxing career he had to sacrifice happiness for greatness. Do you think that is true? Michael Phelps: I think what he is referring to is that, as an athlete, you are just trying to chase something. That is the biggest thing for a lot of people. I can say for myself, when I retired in 2012, the feeling was, "I need a break. Leave me alone. Stop!" I knew deep down inside I still wanted to come back because I was frustrated with how I finished, and I wanted to finish on my terms. That's why I came back. When I was swimming or when I retired in 2016, I felt I did everything that I could, and I did what I was meant to do in this sport. For the longest time I saw myself as strictly a swimmer, and just this kid who went up and down staring at a black line [in a swimming pool] and not a human being. That's that feeling of trading happiness for greatness you are referring to. I didn’t like who I saw in the mirror when I was like that. Allison Kugel: Do you think you ever bought into the notion that you were superhuman or a superhero, at all? Michael Phelps: No because I just wanted it that bad. It was always more of a wanting and a striving. Going into 2008, that was just… me. When I become super focused on one thing, it's that and only that. I’m a competitor, and I'm the biggest competitor you will ever see. It's that blood in the water mentality. At that point in my life, when I wanted something bad enough, I was going to outwork every single human being, no matter what it took. Allison kugel: How would you say your mental health is today? Michael Phelps: Today, meaning over the last couple of months (laughs)? Allison Kugel: Well, all of us are having some issues these last couple of months (laugh). Michael Phelps: I will say this, I did a piece with ESPN three months ago and it was a disaster. Yes, I have ridden a roller coaster of emotions over the last six months, as I’m sure we all have. But all in all, honestly today I don’t think I could be in a happier place. I probably have one or two bad days a month that are a 6 or 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, whereas before, it would be 10 bad days a month that were at a 9. Quarantine has also forced me to learn and to grow. I almost feel like that is what this is all about. Whether it’s the work that my wife and I have done, or work on myself, I’ve broken through some barriers. It's almost been good for me to have this time, not to, like, sit in my own shit (laugh), but to deal with myself. I feel like everything in life happens for a reason. Allison Kugel: I understand what you mean. It is scary but necessary to be still, and we've all had to be still in recent months. Michael Phelps: It’s been fun though. It was scary in the beginning, but if we can all take a step back and look at the beginning of the quarantine process, I bet we can all see how much we've learned and grown through the process without even realizing it. It's kind of crazy that I have worked within hundredths of a second as a competitive swimmer my entire life, and now I'm trying to slow life down. Allison Kugel: That's interesting. You're really not used to that. Michael Phelps: No, not at all (laugh). Allison Kugel: Are you completely sober today? Have you sworn off alcohol? Michael Phelps: We don’t drink in our household at all. There are some bad childhood memories of my father [drinking] or seeing other things like that. I'm somebody who is very conscious of not having my boys go through some of the same things that I lived through and had to see. It’s hard to still live with some of those feelings, even 20 years down the road. When I was a kid my dad didn’t know how to handle certain situations. I feel like at times I get very irritable in certain situations because of it, and I'll go back to my childhood self and realize, "Oh, this is probably why I'm feeling this way right now. It's because of something that scared me from my childhood and this situation is kind of poking at something." I have to take a deep breath and be still with it. That is what I teach my sons. When you feel overwhelming emotions you just have to take a second to realize what they are. [Without alcohol,] I have had to process those emotions that have come up from my childhood. Allison Kugel: In this documentary film, The Weight of Gold, we you appear in, narrate, and you also executive produced, you show a darker side of the Olympics and Olympians? Are you at all nervous about how the International Olympic Committee will react to the film? Michael Phelps: This is a project that I was super pumped and excited about it. Honestly, after coming off of the 16 Olympic games, being able to see that there are so many other athletes that are going through something just like what I went through, I feel strongly that something has to be done about it. Athletes along with myself want to help make a change and I was very fortunate to have 20 athletes jump on board this film. Since then, we have had even more athletes open up about their experiences. The film is very real and raw. We are going to have to change this dynamic if we want to see everything continue to grow in Olympic sports. Allison Kugel: What change do you hope to see because of people watching this documentary? Michael Phelps: I hope people take our mental health just as seriously as our physical health and athletic ability. If [the powers that be] care so much about our physical well-being, then our mental well-being should be a part of that equation. If our mental well-being isn’t there, then our physical well-being won’t be anywhere close to our potential. They both go hand-in-hand. Right now, the mental health resources and support is not there, and it has never been there. I guess if we were not performing, then we don’t get the help we need. Allison Kugel: And you start to feel like a prize racehorse. Michael Phelps: Like a product. You see in this film there are thousands of kids that are waiting to take our shoes, and as soon as we are done the door slams on us and we are forgotten about. Personally, I have been extremely fortunate. Yes, I struggle mentally but my performances have allowed me to continue to do things where other people are still potentially not getting a job because they’ve forgone college, they’ve forgone their whole life to put into this. Allison Kugel: Would you let your kids be professional athletes or take on the kind of the kind of journey that you took on? Michael Phelps: I don't think it's fair for them to have to follow in my footsteps. If they are going to be 100 times better than me, than hell yes! I would love to see it. I would love to be there and be a part of it if they love it. but I don't want to force them into something they don't want. I found swimming as a kid and loved it. I did have some rocky points, but I absolutely enjoyed every moment. I want them to follow their passion and love what they do. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Michael Phelps to learn, and what did you come here to teach? Michael Phelps: I think I have partially found some of it, but I don't think I've figured out all of it. I do think this next chapter of my life is going to be way bigger than what I have ever done before. I think bringing awareness to the mental health side of things could potentially be bigger than my swimming ever was. I don't think that is the whole picture, and I don't know what the rest of the picture looks like yet. Isn’t life’s purpose to continually be finding out what it is, but we are never supposed to really find out what it is while we are living it? Allison Kugel: I like that. Michael Phelps: If you obsess over your purpose too much then it almost becomes irrelevant and obsolete. It should naturally just occur over time. I don't know exactly what my life's purpose is because I feel like I am still trying to find it. I might not fully know, but I feel like it's not something I can go out and search for. It will be presented to me whenever it is ready to be presented. Allison Kugel: I get that. Michael Phelps: I am still trying to process what happened over the last 16 years. The one thing for me throughout my career was that I was always visualizing my next goal, and that is important. I was always prepared for what was going to happen, but I was never future tripping. I try to live in the moment as much as possible. And now, that is something I am trying to do outside of the water. I feel like I have probably taken more strokes in the water than I have taken steps on land. The Weight of Gold, executive produced and narrated by Michael Phelps, premieres Wednesday, July 29 at 9pm ET on HBO. Photos Courtesy of HBO Sports Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist and author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Bret Michaels By Allison Kugel The current state of our world has opened our eyes, shifted priorities, compelled us to action and leveled society's playing field. Recent events call upon all of us to, both, embrace and acknowledge our vulnerabilities and muster our collective strength. Regardless of what race, religion, ethnicity, or socio-economic circumstances we hold, we are forever bound together by these extraordinary times we live in. While our essential workers on the front lines keeping the nuts and bolts of society running and keeping us informed; elements like nature, family, friends, and the arts lift our spirits. Music has the power to inspire, heal, help us process our anger or heartbreak, prompt reflection, or make us grow nostalgic. Therefore, it should continue to be celebrated, even in the tensest of times. Some of my favorite interview subjects have been musicians, because of the philosophical and poetic nature many of them share. Legendary Poison frontman, Bret Michaels, is one of those people for me. We first met in 2007 when I interviewed him about his then VH1 reality show, Rock of Love. I enjoyed Michael's company then, and thirteen years later I still do. We resumed our conversation as it pertains to his now four-decade multi-platinum-selling music career, how some much-publicized health challenges have strengthened his spirit and resolve, his love of touring and his inexhaustible energy for new projects. On Monday, June 1st, Bret Michael's band Poison, in a joint statement with Motley Crue, Def Leppard and Joan Jett and the Blackhearts, announced that their much anticipated 2020 tour would be postponed until 2021. In light of the challenges our nation is facing on several fronts, their official statement reads: "We wanted to continue to communicate with our fans and update you with valid information as it becomes available. The official decision has been made to move all 2020 North American Stadium Tour dates into the summer of 2021," and concludes with, "Stay tuned, be safe and we will see you next year." In the interim, Michaels is excited to discuss the recent release of his personal scrapbook memoir, titled, Auto-Scrap-Ography. The book is an amalgamation of Michael's timestamped photographs, inspirational musings, landmark memories, and deep thoughts, penned by the singer, himself. *Editor's Note: This interview was completed prior to the tragic death of George Floyd. Allison Kugel: This is the first interview I am releasing since the start of this pandemic. I have been reticent about putting anything entertainment-related out there. But if I am getting back into it, you are a good person to start back up with. Bret Michaels: We use the words "tough times," but these are also confusing times. Some people are saying "Don’t worry about it," while others like me and you are saying, "Are you and your family safe?" I’m in the highest risk category for COVID-19, being a Type 1 Diabetic since the age of six. So, my whole family have been really good about wearing masks and gloves and being safe until we get closer to the shore, if you know what I mean. I’ve also been trying to inject as much positivity into everything as I can without it sounding phony. I call myself a drealist. I dream and I dream big, but I’m also a realist. Allison Kugel: I agree with you about injecting positivity into challenging situations. My son has been complaining that he hasn't seen his friends, and he jokes that our lives have become like the movie Groundhog Day. He'll say, "We take the same walk everyday mom!" I say to him, "Look how blue the sky is. Look at that beautiful tree. Try and find the simple things that you may have overlooked under more normal circumstances." Bret Michaels: One thousand percent! I went out and took pictures with my kids. And recently I got a bucket of paint out because our sports court has needed painting for ten years, and I'd been avoiding it. I’ve put myself into every project I could find. It keeps you positive and it keeps your hands busy. If you are taking a walk and looking at a tree, it keeps your mind on positive stuff. It works.  Allison Kugel: Would you say that some of the things you previously took for granted or overlooked, you are now noticing or rediscovering? Bret Michaels: Completely. I have a ranch in Arizona, and I went through everything that I have hoarded. I de-hoarded it (laugh). Then I went and started painting stuff. I’m a motor sports, outdoor kind of guy, so I ripped apart engines, like Go Kart engines. I also began noticing some furniture in need of a little love and TLC. I watch all these shows where they do it, and I finally decided to jump in and start restoring some furniture. And music, of course. I love listening to Bob Marley through these times. I listen to Three Little Birds and it just puts me right. Allison Kugel: I can't speak for other journalists, but for me this work has been a giant case study in the human experience. I've learned that everybody's life has a master theme. Your Type 1 Diabetes has been well documented, as was your brain hemorrhage some years back. You also had some big accidents that required rehabilitation. I feel that your master theme in this life is overcoming limitations of the physical body. Bret Michaels: That makes sense. When people ask me, "How do you overcome?" I say this is the card I was dealt and rather then become a victim to it and have self-pity, I chose to take the path of being spiritually and mentally positive. I want to go on record and thank my parents for that. My dad was active and a have fun, get it done kind of guy. My mom is the same. She opened the first youth diabetic camp in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania because I was the only kid in my entire class growing up who had diabetes. I send so many kids to diabetic camp so they can see what I experienced. It literally saved and changed my life. I saw other kids with diabetes, and we all learned together, brick by brick, how to find a way to enjoy sports and make it all work. That experience has been used in every application of my life, and in some ways prepared me for the entertainment business. Allison Kugel: And that is the power of a mom's love. Your mom said, "I'm going to create a camp for my kid so he can have this positive experience." I always say that where other people see problems, I see opportunities. It sounds like your mom is the same way. Bret Michaels: One million percent, and I hear that in your voice. In our case, diabetes was a part of our lives. My sisters also had it. And even when it comes to work and being on the road, I always say, "Ok, we've established the problem. The guitars didn't show up for our show in Lima, Peru (laugh). We can stand here and keep discussing it and yelling about it, but we have a stadium show in three hours. Let's focus on what we are going to do to solve this." I think you and me together can solve a lot of problems. Allison Kugel: The right perspective makes all the difference in your life. Bret Michaels: All the difference! With coronavirus, we don't know the exact date it was created or where it came from, so rather than focus on that, why don't we start focusing on the cities that are doing better, and what places like New York are doing to make it better. We have already established that it's a horrific virus. Now, what do we do to help each other get through it? And the amount of anxiety and depression this has caused, and economic turmoil; we are going to have to keep an eye on each other. We have to have each other's backs. Allison Kugel: Let's talk about your new book, Auto-Scrap-Ography. You are a ball of kinetic energy. How did you manage to sit down and write this book? Bret Michaels: Writing a book is one of the toughest things I've ever done, and it's one of the most fulfilling. I wanted to do something unique. I grabbed some timestamped photos. I took blank pieces of paper and I would scotch tape an image to a piece of paper and start writing the story surrounding that image, kind of like a Chicken Soup for the Soul vibe. The reason I didn't write a normal biography, and I love to read those, by the way, is because I could take a picture and write stream of consciousness about what my thoughts were in that moment, what I was going through and what happened. Every picture has a story and every story has multiple tentacles. This book is Volume 1. Over the next volumes I'm going to give you different tentacles of each story and really deep dive into it, so you are living the experience with me. Allison Kugel: That's an interesting approach. When I wrote my book, I took a different approach. I streamlined passages to focus on one main aspect of a story for the sake of continuity. I'm curious to read your volumes to see how you went about this. Bret Michaels: It's why yours is unique to you and mine is unique to me. If I tried to write it that way, I would have lost focus. That's why mine is written as a scrapbook. It's an autobiographical scrapbook diary. Some of it are pages of inspirational stuff; some are intense and impactful moments from my life. For example, there are five pages talking about me almost drowning in Caracas, Venezuela. I share with people what was going through my mind when I knew I was in a rip current. I had that fight or flight that happens. I thought that was it. Everyone on the beach thought I was kidding around, because I wasn't that far off the shore. I’m waving frantically and everyone on the beach is partying with their band and crew and they're just waving back at me, and I'm drowning out there.  Allison Kugel: Your life experiences are such double-edged swords. Everything is the good and the bad, or the fun and the scary at the same time. Bret Michaels: Yes, my life, ironically, has been roses and thorns (a reference to Poison's number one hit ballad, "Every Rose Has Its Thorn"). A rose is this beautiful thing that looks amazing, it brings people life and it means love. And if you grab it the wrong way, or slide your hand down it, you have a painful thorn in your hand. My life has been a perfect balance beam in that way. I remember playing Texas Stadium in front of 83,000 people. It was completely sold out and we shot the I Won't Forget You video with Paul Stanley on stage, and Steven Tyler watching from the side. It was one of those, "This is the greatest!" moments. Life felt like a surreal dream. Two hours later we went from mega Texas Stadium rock star status to playing a small town in either in Texas or New Mexico where there weren't four people in the whole place who knew or cared who or what we were. At the time, it was exactly what I needed to happen to realize this will keep me as grounded as the person that I am today. Allison Kugel: I so get that. I’m not a public person, but I had gotten into this amazing groove where I was doing dream interview after dream interview, and I had just interviewed Gwen Stefani and was feeling pretty high about everything. Well, shortly thereafter, something happened, nothing terrible, but I got myself arrested and was thrown into a lockup. It was a traumatic experience. I remember being hysterical and I asked the woman if I could use the phone. I was freaking out and I started crying, and she goes, "Can you go cry over there, you're getting on my nerves (laughs). Bret Michaels: Oh, my goodness (laughs). Allison Kugel: Yup! I was like, "No, you don't understand I don't belong here. You don't know what I do and who I am." Well, that just made it one hundred times worse! Bret Michaels: I'm so sorry that happened to you, but truth is stranger than fiction. As I say in my book, I did not need to make stories up for shock value. Some stories I needed to pare down because you would think I'm making it up. I was arrested and went to Walton County Prison (Walton Correctional Institution in Walton County, Florida), with the real inmates. It wasn't the nice holding cell. Allison Kugel: (Laughs) Bret Michaels: I had just got done playing what at the time was called Omni Basketball Arena. A guy claimed I ruined his car, that I jumped on his car and smashed his windows. All of it was false. But they didn't ask questions. They just took me in. I had just come off stage and was in a state of shock. I spent two days in there and finally it came out that the guy made the story up. For two days I sat in the corner of that jail cell with about twenty other inmates all packed into a place that only should have held about four people. I sat in a corner with my head down and I didn't say a word. Some people said, "Hey, are you who I think you are?" I was like, "Yeah, no big thing, man, thanks." Allison Kugel: A humbling experience… Bret Michaels: A lot of the stories in Auto-Scrap-Ography are stories of how I overcame challenges, and true stories of inspiration. But a large part of my book is, of course, what I like to call a Rock 'n' Roll Thrill Ride. I'd like to think the overriding theme of the book is inspiration; it's telling people that if I can do this you can do it, regardless of what your dream is. Allison Kugel: Since touring is off the table right now, what other projects are you working on? Bret Michaels: I am going to be the face of college radio. Each year they pick someone to be the face of it and this year it's me. I also got the Humanitarian of The Year Award last year at the 2019 Hollywood Christmas Parade (Michaels ongoing philanthropic efforts have included delivering needed supplies to the people of the Bahamas and Puerto Rico). Way back when, when no one would touch our records, college radio spun our album. I wanted to do something to show my appreciation. I've also contributed to a lot of school programs, donating to their music, art and athletic programs. Allison Kugel: One passage that really struck me in your book was when you wrote, "I went from barely being able to afford to feed myself and buy my insulin to touring stadiums." What did you learn from poverty and what have you learned from wealth? Bret Michaels: From the beginning I was always a guy who thinks positive. I find a way to get it done. When I would run out of insulin and my parents would have to help, or they couldn't send it out in time, I would literally go down to the clinics in Hollywood and they'd give me insulin. It all made me resilient and determined, and most importantly, grateful when the second half came along. Poison and I, we are one of the few bands who were an independent band. My big signing day and signing party for Look What the Cat Dragged (Poison's debut studio album, released August 2, 1986) was sitting on a floor in El Segundo, California shrink wrapping my own albums. You know those stories about private jets and limos? I'd love to tell you that happened, but none of that happened.  Allison Kugel: I think people just assume that any band that goes multiplatinum was signed to a major label. The fact that Poison was independent makes it all the more impressive.
Bret Michaels: I couldn't have been prouder of what I was doing back then. And I didn't know any better. I didn't come from money. I was excited just shrink wrapping those albums I was grateful to have a record. The next thing was college radio played it. Nobody else wanted our music at the time. No one wanted Every Rose Has Its Thorn. No one was fighting to get Talk Dirty to Me or Something to Believe In; songs that eventually became number one songs. No one originally wanted our publishing at first, so we kept our own publishing with a ten percent administration deal with what's now Universal Music Group. It ended up being a humungous blessing. Allison Kugel: Why do you think you survived your 2010 brain hemorrhage and stroke? I'm sure you've thought about this a lot. Bret Michaels: First of all, I'm grateful that I lived. Second, I say praise God! It wasn't my time yet. I have more to do and this is where being a diabetic and my fighting spirit came in. Dr. Joseph Zabramski, one of my doctors, said, “I've never seen anybody work as hard in physical therapy to get better.” I hope the reason I survived is so I could show people what it means to fight and not give up. I've always been a grateful guy but that took my gratitude to an unbelievable level, and it also really upped my philanthropic work with my Life Rocks Foundation. Allison Kugel: You also say in your book that you do have a few regrets. How do you determine a regret versus a lesson, versus something you're proud of, in retrospect? Bret Michaels: One regret is that I couldn't be there for some of the events my children had at school. I've been to everything I could physically get to, but if it's when you have to play a show and it's also the night my kids are doing a recital, those are the things that I regret. I've never missed a birthday or a Christmas, but some of the other things you do miss. Another regret is a huge fist fight I had with C.C. [DeVille], my guitar player, and he's one of my best friends. It was a lot of time on the road, a lot of heated discussions about what songs we wanted in the set, and little things that fester and turned into a knockdown, drag out, nose breaking, teeth missing fist fight. We are like brothers, and I regret the physical end of it. It didn't need to go there, and it's one of my biggest regrets, especially because it happened twice in the same week, once in New Orleans and once backstage at the MTV Awards. Allison Kugel: You have an ageless look about you. How do you feel about aging? Are you okay with the aging process? Bret Michaels: I'm either an aging rocker or a dead rocker (laugh). We are aging from the moment we're born. Aging gracefully, I'll take that any day of the week because it's better than the alternative. I've been aging since we put out Look What the Cat Dragged In. By the time we did Open Up and Say… Ahh! I’d already aged from the first record. As you go along things happen to you, medically. You will not find me being one of those guys saying, "This sucks." I'm just glad I got the chance to age, because a lot of my buddies didn't. Allison Kugel: Here are the questions I ask everyone and my favorite part of the interview. What do you think you came into this life as Bret Michaels to learn? And what do you think you came here to teach? Bret Michaels: To learn, I'm going to say something very bold here. I came here to learn as much as I can about everything. One of the things I teach my kids is, "Take it all in, and learn from everybody." I've done that. I go out on my mountain bike and drive around while the road crew is setting stuff up, and I talk to them and find out what they are doing and learn from that. Whether or not I can apply that knowledge right then and there is one thing, but I learn a lot and I enjoy people. As far as teaching, I think if I was to have one other career, and I hope I can segue from what I'm doing now into this, I do these inspirational seminars where I talk about everything under the sun. I talk about what I've gone through and what I go through. With everything I have been through, that is the one thing I can give back and what I want to be able to do. It's what I would have done had this music thing not worked out the way it has. If my life had gone another way and I was just playing music on the weekends, I would have been a teacher of some kind… or a truck driver. I know that sounds crazy, but I love the open road. Allison Kugel: What do you think your spiritual mission is in this lifetime? Bret Michaels: I think it's to bring to people as much realistic positivity to people as possible. If you came to a party I'm hosting, as you have been, when you come to my house to a party, I don't want to be the life of the party. I want you to have the time of your life at my party. I think one of the reasons I'm a singer or frontman of a band is I'm a good host to people. I like when people feel good. It makes me feel good. Photos courtesy of Michaels Entertainment Group Bret Michael's memoir, Bret Michaels: Auto-Scrap-Ography, is out now and available exclusively at ShopBretMichaels.com. Follow on Instagram @bretmichaelsofficial. Information on Poison's postponed tour dates. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist and author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Joel Osteen By Allison Kugel In these uncertain times, we can all do our part to raise the vibration of this planet and initiate collective healing on a mass scale, and that goes beyond our first responders in the medical and safety fields to whom we owe a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid. Something as simple as a smile, a wave or asking someone how their day is going has healing ripple effects that are much needed. We all matter, and we must all do our part. One man, Pastor Joel Osteen, of Lakewood Church in Houston Texas, has been doing his part, and then some since taking over his late father, John Osteen's, Lakewood congregation in 1999 as head pastor. Osteen's eternal optimism, interpretation of bible scripture and his practice of radical acceptance, has skyrocketed his church and his message into the stratosphere. Osteen's parishioners who attend his church and follow him on television, through his podcasts, many New York Times bestselling books, tours and radio broadcasts have responded in massive numbers to Osteen's message of "come as you are." During our conversation, we discuss his deep-rooted belief that human beings do not have to be perfect to embrace Christianity, or any faith for that matter. You simply must have the desire in your heart to be better today than you were yesterday; an all-inclusive qualification, that Osteen insists, allows us all to measure up in the eyes of God. It's not a surprise that millions around the globe draw inspiration and spiritual education from Joel Osteen, both, civilians and public figures, alike. The contagion of the COVID-19 pandemic we currently face is daunting, but the contagion of hope and faith is a powerful force that can indeed help to heal our planet, boost our immune systems and encourage us to reflect on how we can be better; how we can each be a miracle to the world around us. Pastor Joel Osteen's recent online streaming Palm Sunday service saw five million viewers tuning in to pray. The power of five million people in unified prayer is a powerful force, indeed. This Sunday's live streaming Easter service anticipates even larger numbers, with numerous special guests sharing messages of love and inspiration for all who attend the service at JoelOsteen.com. Both Joel and I hope to see you there. Over the years, when I have been interviewed about my work, people have asked me, "What are some of your go-to apps on your phone?" Perhaps expecting my answer to reflect our society's obsession with social media, they're often surprised when I say, "I listen to Joel Osteen's messages every morning through his mobile app. It's how I start my day." Allison Kugel: I've been listening to you and applying your advice in my life for many moons. What's curious to me about that, is that I was born and raised in the Jewish faith. I’m wondering how many people of different faiths find comfort and inspiration in your words. Have you heard that before? Joel Osteen: I’ve heard it a lot, Allison. Jewish people stop me every day. Somehow, I have that connection with the Jewish people, and interestingly, with some Muslims as well. I’ve sold many, many books in Muslim countries. I feel blessed to be able to connect with people from different faiths, and I even have people come to the church sometimes that are not from the Christian faith. My goal was to reach a broad group, and I feel honored that people listen to me from different faiths. Allison Kugel: How has your ministry changed in the wake of this COVID-19 pandemic in terms of how you're interacting with your congregation, and with the world at large? Are you approaching your messages differently? Joel Osteen: You know, I wouldn't say that I am. I guess I am approaching it differently in one sense. I’m speaking more to the subject at hand, and talking about choosing faith and not fear, and things like that. Other than that, it's just a shift away from the people being here [in Houston's Compaq Center] and being able to pray with people in person. Fortunately, we had our online platform, and this network of television stations already lined up. Other than not seeing everyone in person, it hasn't changed that much.  Allison Kugel: Apart from 9/11, which was of course devastating, the last several decades we've just kind of had good times. We didn't live through things like the Spanish Flu, The Great Depression, World War I or World War II, like previous generations did. Now we are faced with the enormity of this pandemic. Do you think the word "faith" has taken on new meaning now? Joel Osteen: I think it has. I think our faith is tested and tried in the difficult times, and you make a good point in that we haven't lived like previous generations did. We haven't had to endure that. This is such a time of uncertainty, but I do believe this is when we turn to our faith. This is when you can feel that peace and that hope to get through it. That is what I feel faith is all about. It's not just for the good times. Even though we hadn't previously experienced those kinds of things in our generation, we all experience difficulties in relationships, finances, the loss of loved ones and with health issues. I think our faith can be seen there. Allison Kugel: Faith comes into play any time we have to believe, in the absence of concrete physical evidence… Joel Osteen: I think we can see we are not really in control as much as we think we are. I think for me, I’ve encouraged people that it's a great time to re-evaluate your life, and your priorities; and to ask, "Do I have things in order? Am I taking people for granted? Am I loving the people God's given me to love?" These things can cause us to ask those important questions. That's how good can come out of it. We can reevaluate and maybe make some adjustments. Allison Kugel: Any personal "aha" moments over the last few weeks you'd like to share? Joel Osteen: I don't think I've had an "aha" moment, per se, but I do think I'm like a lot of people. We can go 90 miles an hour, because life is so busy and we're always in a hurry. It's a fast pace and this has kind of made us slow down. It's made us not be able to travel and it's made us spend some time. I do think that's hit me, to think, "Wow, it's good to slow down sometimes and enjoy life, just let stuff go by, and not take people for granted." I hate that people are dying and that people are sick, but in one sense I've learned to just embrace where I am. We can't have services on the weekend, we can't do all that we used to do, but you know what, I’m just going to slow down, take it at this pace, and not fight it; not live upset, and not live fearful. Allison Kugel: What's your take on destiny versus free will as it applies to us humans? Joel Osteen: I do think that God's planned out things for each one of us. Like you said, he gives us a free will. We can make choices that can keep us from becoming who we were created to be, but I believe that when you're honoring God, when you're being your best, I believe that God will get you to where you're supposed to be. So, a sickness, or a virus, or another person can't stop your destiny. I believe that. I know that sometimes it's hard to reconcile that God gives us free will, and he knew all that we were going to do wrong, but I think he gives us the free will, and I believe when you're doing your best, God will get you to where you're supposed to be. Allison Kugel: People often comment about the enormity of your church. My feeling is that it took courage for you to preach a message that it doesn't matter what you did yesterday, you're welcome here today. It doesn't matter what mistakes you've made, if you want to do better and be better, you can. It certainly goes against traditional concepts of sin and guilt. Joel Osteen: I do believe everything you said, Allison. It probably does go against the old school, or the generations that had hellfire and brimstone, where you go to church to feel guilty. People are already feeling guilty enough. I do believe that is what the scripture teaches, that, you know what, you move forward, and your past doesn't have to stop you. You go through the scripture and you see it again and again, with different examples. When Jesus was here, he lifted the fallen, he restored those who were broken, and so I do believe that. Of course, I believe in sin and repentance from sin, but we've all made mistakes. Life beats us up, and I feel like my message is to tell people to get back up and go again, because God gives us another chance and He can still get you to where you're supposed to be. Allison Kugel: Have you been revisiting scripture to connect to all that is going on in the year 2020, and this seismic shift in our world? Joel Osteen: I’m always searching the scripture and I’m always studying. I don't know if it's specifically that, but I agree with what you are saying that some scripture becomes more real right now. I talked the other day, and I think it was from the Book of Matthew, where it says in the last days, there will be pandemics. And I think, "Well, you know, we're stepping into these times." But Jesus said, "Even then, don't lose faith. Keep your faith and don't live in fear."  Allison Kugel: Do you feel pressure to be perfect? If you are the person that millions of people look to for guidance, what or whom do you look to when you are troubled? Joel Osteen: You know, I feel like I have a good family around me that I can turn to. I start the day off with prayer and meditation. That helps me to stay grounded. I feel a responsibility, but I don't really feel that pressure. Again, I have good people around me, and I try to live in a place of peace and strength, and not take on more than I have to. I think God gives you the grace for certain things. Allison Kugel: In what ways is your wife Victoria the backbone of your family? Joel Osteen: Victoria is a strong woman. She is wise, she's determined, and she is very loving, fun, joyful, and she does keep our family filled with hope and joy. I feel blessed to have somebody that has seen things in me that I never saw in myself. She’s got that ability to pull them out of people, not just me, but in others as well. I know I wouldn't be who I am if she wasn't in my life. Allison Kugel: I was going to ask if you think you would be where you are now if Victoria wasn't in your life… Joel Osteen: No. I tell people all the time I wouldn't be half of who I am. She saw, before my dad passed and I stepped up to pastor, she used to tell me I was going to pastor the church. That was like telling me I was going to go be an astronaut. I said, "Victoria, I would never be a pastor. I don't know what to say." She saw this in me before I saw it myself, so I think having her believe in me early on, way before my dad died, that really helped me to step up. Allison Kugel: I ask everyone this question, and I think it's really fitting considering who you are. What do you think you came into this life as Joel Osteen to learn? And what do you think you came here to teach? Joel Osteen: Hmm, what did I come here to learn? Maybe I came here to learn about the goodness of God; how good God is. I feel like that is what I’ve seen in my life, and that's why it's easy for me to tell people that God is for you and that he can restore you, and he's got a great plan. I've just seen that my whole life. I had a great mom and dad. My mom's still alive, but a lot of people get the image of God from their earthly father. My dad was just for everybody, and for me. I feel that maybe I came here to see the goodness of God. I think I came here to teach people about the goodness of God, and to make God good again. We touched on the fact that a lot of people were raised to believe that God is mad at them, and they were taught guilt and that you can't measure up. But I just have a different view of God, so maybe it's to spread a different message. Allison Kugel: And what do you think is your spiritual mission, overall? Joel Osteen: To bring good into the world, to lift people up, to give them hope, to help them forgive, and to help them feel better about themselves. My mission is to help them to know who God is, and to know who they are. A lot of people, we don't know who we are. We think we're just average. I believe we are all made in the image of God, and that we have greatness in us. So, it's to lift people up and help push them into their destiny. Allison Kugel: I watched one of your services where you invited Kanye West to come up on stage to share his testimony. He said something interesting. He said that for a while he was caught up in being of service to fame, rather than being of service to God. Have you ever felt yourself getting pulled in that direction, where you felt like you were being of service to the fame you have achieved? Joel Osteen: I don't know that I felt that so much. One of my strengths is that I get up every morning and I search my heart and my mind, and I ask myself if I’m on the right path. Am I making good decisions? I think there's opportunities that come along with what I do, where I think, "You know what? That would feel good for my ego, but that's not for me." But I don't feel much different than I did twenty years ago when I was working for my father, behind the scenes. I have more influence now, but I don't really see myself as a celebrity, or as somebody with fame. I don't feel like I have that temptation too much. Allison Kugel: How did your relationship with Kanye West start? Joel Osteen: It started with a text from a friend of mine saying, "Kanye West wants to talk with you." I then got a text one day from [Kanye] that said, "Can we talk?" I called and we talked for an hour or two that first day. It started from his journey of faith, this new twist that he's taken. During that first conversation he told me his background and what he was all about. My next question to him was, "What do you need from us?" He said, "I don't need anything. I was just looking for friendship." And so, it started off as friendship, and I was very impressed with him. He didn't call to come to the church, and he didn't really need anything from me. I found him to be very genuine and very respectful over the last six or eight months. He's just a very genuine, respectful, kind, quite person. Not the Kanye that you see out there.  Allison Kugel: Let's talk about your live streaming Easter Sunday service. You're having some interesting guests, including Mariah Carey and Tyler Perry; as well as the Houston Chief of Police and the Houston Fire Department Chief. How was it all put together?
Joel Osteen: We wanted to do a segment where we honored the first responders and the medical professionals, and we asked the police chief and the fire chief to come out. They're always supportive friends, and so we asked if they would come out to represent the first responders, nationwide. I also called Tyler Perry because he's spoken here at Lakewood Church before, and people love him. I just kind of wanted something special this Easter season, during these times that are so uncertain. So, he made us a five-minute video. He's very warm and inspiring. And then Kanye West texted me just a few days ago and said, "What are you all doing for Easter?" I asked him if he wanted to do something together, and he said, "Yes, I would like to get my choir involved." I said absolutely, let's do it. So, he's working on that end. I don't know what it's all going to be, but he's going to do something with social distancing and all the right things. Allison Kugel: And Mariah Carey? Joel Osteen: I’ve known Mariah from years past and she wanted to do something to honor the First Responders. She called and asked if we could do something together, and of course I thought it would be great. She wants to sing her song, Hero, which she'll do from her apartment in New York. We’ll put footage of the First Responders over her song. She has a real heart to say thank you to people, and so we thought it would work with our other segments. She's an amazing lady, too, so it just kind of fell into place. Allison Kugel: What is Lakewood Church doing in terms of donations of medical supplies, food, or whatever kind of support you're working on for your local hospitals and other service providers in the Houston area? Joel Osteen: We're doing something called Boxes of Hope. These are for the elderly, and for people that have special needs children. These are boxes filled with groceries, water, soaps, and things that they need if they can't get to the grocery store. My brother Paul is a medical doctor and he's working with some of his contacts, and we're donating masks and medical supplies down to the large medical center we have here in Houston. Another thing we are doing is taking food trucks down to the medical center for the first responders, nurses and doctors, so they can step outside and have some free food. We also did a blood drive last week at the Gulf Coast Blood Center. We're always their biggest blood drive in North America. We'll have another couple of thousand people that will come through and give blood. People here at Lakewood [Church], they love to help, they love to give, and they love to share. Allison Kugel: In times like this I know that you preach positivity, which is so important, but in these times do you think it's okay for people to have moments of anxiety, depression, or even moments where they feel a lack of faith? Joel Osteen: Yes, I definitely do, Allison, because we are human. Jesus, even in scriptures, one time he was so depressed he sweat great drops of blood. I think that's normal, and I don't think we need to beat ourselves up for that. But I would encourage people to not stay there. Don't live there. Don't live out of the anxiety and fear and lack of faith. But I wouldn't beat myself up for that, or for even people saying I’ve doubted, and I've gotten away from God. Well, come back. You don't have to stay there. Allison Kugel: Do you think at some point we'll all transcend religion and religious denominations, and simply gain knowledge from, as Deepak Chopra would say, “all of the great wisdom traditions," and from all the great prophets that have walked the earth? Perhaps, at some point, as a human race, do you think we'll feel that all roads lead to Rome, so to speak? Joel Osteen: I really don't know. I go back to how I grew up fifty years ago, when the denominational walls were so strong. My dad was basically asked to leave the Baptists because he didn't believe exactly like them. I see how far we've come, that it's not like that today, so I do think these walls are coming down. I think the things that have separated us are getting less and less, and I don't know where it will end up, but I do think that just like when we talked earlier, so many people from different faiths watch us and listen to us. I do think it's a good thing that we don't have all these things separating us. Allison Kugel: How can people tune in to your Easter service this Sunday? Joel: They would have to watch our live stream at JoelOsteen.com, this Sunday morning at 8:30 AM central time, and then at 11:00 AM central time. It will then replay on Facebook and YouTube, and all those platforms. Allison Kugel: Thank you for a great interview, and for inspiring me on a daily basis for so many years. Joel Osteen: Awe, thank you so much. I'm very honored. Join Joel Osteen, Mariah Carey, Kanye West and Tyler Perry for Lakewood Church's live streaming Easter Sunday Service at 8:30 AM CT, and at 11 AM CT at JoelOsteen.com. Photos courtesy of Lakewood Church Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Shania Twain By Allison Kugel How did a child growing up in poverty in the small mining town in Timmins, Ontario, Canada emerge to become the best-selling female recording artist in history? It's a question that often rolls through Shania Twain's mind. Throughout the course of my in-depth conversation with Shania in which we cover everything from her Las Vegas residency and burgeoning film career to her upbringing, her family relationships and her spiritual guideposts, we collaboratively put those pieces together and the answer is clear. The talent, perseverance and laser-like determination of this woman are unparalleled, yet so are serendipitous encounters along her journey that were put in place as if by divine order. With multiple diamond-certified albums to her credit including 1995's The Woman in Me (2020 marks the 25th anniversary of its release),1997's Come on Over (the best-selling album by a female artist in any genre) and 2002's Up!; she's soothed and inspired countless fans around the globe with her soulful country twang, pop star appeal and the rich storytelling in her lyrics. In 2017, Shania Twain emerged from one of the darkest hours of her life, losing her first husband and longtime creative collaborator, famed music producer Robert John "Mutt" Lange, and her voice to nerve damage she suffered as a result of Lyme Disease. Though she was down, her story was far from over. Twain re-emerged to find love with second husband, Frédéric Thiébaud, and the prodigious singer re-trained and strengthened her voice for a musical comeback. Her 2017 album, Now, is a mostly up-tempo celebration of healing, independence (Twain made this album sans the musical direction of ex-husband, Lange), love and pure joy. It's a personal and professional triumph. Shania Twain remains steadfast and plain-spoken in emphasizing her humble roots, though she is now unapologetic in celebrating her storied career, and excited about all she has yet to accomplish. Twain extended her second Las Vegas Residency, Shania Twain Let's Go! through the end of 2020, and she takes on her second major film role in next month's, I Still Believe, playing, Terry Camp, the mother of Christian singer-songwriter Jeremy Camp, in a moving story inspired by Camp's personal life and career. Allison Kugel: Looking back over your five decades of life, what events and experiences have been most formative for you? Shania Twain: My youth, growing up in a small northern mining town in Canada was very formative. That upbringing has stayed with me in many ways, I would say permanently. My parents dying was a personal earthquake in my life, and life shattering. My first marriage was formative. Everything changed in my life as a result of my first marriage, both personally and creatively. That partnership (with ex-husband, music producer Robert John "Mutt" Lange) created a change in my life forever. And having a child was an incredibly life changing experience, and a very beautiful one. My son has brought a lot of consistency and stability to me, emotionally. Then, of course, there was the loss and weakening of my voice. Allison Kugel: How do you turn challenges into blessings? Shania Twain: If I start with losing my voice and my divorce, the silver lining during all of that was falling into love with somebody (Twain's current husband, Frédéric Thiébaud). He has been an incredible support through those difficult times. My second marriage has been an incredible re-strengthening of my confidence, of my will to even want to sing again. It is just amazing, the power of love, and I am very grateful to have found that again. I had been going along and enduring so much of what I had lost for a very long time. Finding the courage to regain my voice and getting back on stage again, taking all those risks. How about even taking the risk to fall in love again (laugh)?! Allison Kugel: In my early 20s, I was living in Los Angeles, trying to find work as a writer and broke (laughs), and I would drive around listening to your music for inspiration. I would listen to From This Moment On, The Woman in Me, God Bless the Child. Your music would keep me company, comfort me and make me feel hopeful. I can only imagine how many other millions of people your music has done that for. You'll never know who they are, and you'll never know their stories. Do you ever stop to think about the enormity of that? Shania Twain: I relate to it very, very well, because that’s exactly what music does for me. I understand completely what you're talking about and what role music plays in the lives of people, and sometimes for the artist as well. If you can relate to the artist as well as to their music, it's such an essential and it is such a huge part of my daily life. I’m very affected by it. My moods are affected by what song I’m listening to. I’m very easily influenced by music. I’ve never, in all my years, even when I was very young and getting into this business, I've never fallen into substance abuse. I was never into drugs or taking anything to enhance my creativity, and I was never a partier. I was always extremely serious, and the music, itself, was where I would get lost. I would literally get high on music or go into the state of mind of wherever a piece of music took me. If I can make people feel that way, if I can have that effect on people through my music, I've achieved everything I could ever ask for.  Allison Kugel: The one thing that so many people I’ve interviewed have in common, people who have reached the top of their field or craft, is that they are masters at manipulating energy and matter, and manifesting things into physical existence; into the material world. Would you put yourself in that category? Shania Twain: Definitely! I think I've had a one-track mind, even now I still have this. Certainly, when I was developing [my career] and I was on my path, I was unreasonable. There was no distraction, there was nothing else. My focus was absolute, and all my energy went into whatever goals I was setting for myself. I think that is the only way you can even use the word "master." Certainly, if you can master your own development in your craft and get that good at something, that it's completely… you're inseparable from it. You’re inseparable from that ability and that skill. I’ve spent so much of my life in that mode, if you will. I still see so much of that in myself now, when I'm pushing myself as a songwriter or with whatever it is I’m doing. I'm always 100 percent in it. Allison Kugel: I would think that frame of mind leaves little to no room for doubt, or for looking to the left or to the right, and all of that. Shania Twain: And it is a frame of mind. It's almost a type of meditation and a very focused process, for sure. Allison Kugel: You're now in your second Las Vegas Residency. The show is titled, Shania Twain Let's Go!. What's different from the first Las Vegas Residency you did? Shania Twain: This Las Vegas Residency at Zappos [Theater] (at Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino) is very much geared to the spirit of the room. The atmosphere of the room is very informal. I designed the show so that when I bring people up onto the stage, they're part of the story, in that vignette, and in that moment of the show. For example, I'll have a couple come up and sit in the most romantic seat in the house, which is on the stage, and I wrote a white glove [experience] for them into the show, while they're up on stage. So, they've got the best seat in the house, the white glove treatment, they're given champagne, and their serenaded with From This Moment On (from Twain's 1997 record breaking album, "Come on Over"). I did that, obviously, because so many people have been married to my song, From This Moment On. Allison Kugel: I've also heard your show described as a "musical party." Shania Twain: And that's the more country influenced part of the show, where I've organized a saloon set for people to come up and dance. I created a specific choreography of a line dance can-can. It's quite funny and light spirited, and very much built for the audience to be in the show. It's a stand-up room, it's a party room, so I thought Let's Go! would be the perfect trigger title to capture that mood. Allison Kugel: I love that! I know that your mother was your greatest champion and your greatest cheerleader for your career when you were a child. She died, along with your father, in a car accident when you were only 21. If you could magically cross dimensions for just a moment to have a conversation with your mother, to either tell her something or to ask her something, what would you say? Shania Twain: I would probably ask her how she recognized my talent at such a young age. I always wondered what made her feel that I was so capable, and how she recognized that in me, because she was not musical, herself, at all. And to sacrifice and push so hard for me, she must have believed in it intensely. I mean, it must have been really obvious to her, but I still can't imagine. I guess if you have a three or four-year-old downhill skier who's, right before your eyes, skiing better than everybody else, you can bet that with training they're going to be a champion. But with music, I'm not sure it's as obvious. So, I applaud her for that, and I'd want to talk to her about that. She sacrificed so much to develop my music. So yes, it was her conviction. I'd want to ask her, "Where did that conviction come from?" Allison Kugel: Let's talk about your second movie, I Still Believe, coming out March 13th. The trailer made me cry. It's inspired by the true story of Christian singer/songwriter Jeremy Camp, and depicts the love story between he and his first wife, Melissa, who died of ovarian cancer a year after they married. Speaking of conviction, Jeremy knew he likely had limited time with Melissa, but he was so devoted to her. You play Jeremy's mother, Terry Camp, in the film. Do you think you could ever be 100% all in a relationship knowing you would likely lose the person like that? Would you, Shania, take that risk? Shania Twain: Yes! I would do that. It's a heartbreaking story, but I think it's just best to jump in sometimes and live in the moment, not knowing where it will end, and even if there is a probability that it will end badly. I think love is never a waste of time. It’s never a loss, but always a gain. This movie proves that in the most magnificent way, and in the most selfless way possible. And true love is selfless. It was very moving, very inspiring and the ultimate act of selflessness, which love should be.  Allison Kugel: You’ve had two great experiences on film, so far. Your first movie, 2019's Trading Paint, you worked opposite John Travolta, and in I Still Believe you worked with Gary Sinise; two incredibly gifted actors. What have you learned so far? Shania Twain: They are both so experienced as actors, and they influenced me a lot. I learned a lot from them. They were kind and very helpful and made me feel very much at ease; and I just loved being on the set. John Travolta made me feel very comfortable, and a film set is somewhere I feel I belong. It comes to me very naturally. I have no nerves about it or anything like that, and I really would love to do more on film, so it sparked an interest I didn't realize I had. It's a newfound joy in my life where I can be creative and step out of myself like no other element in my career. Allison Kugel: Have you started thinking about what your legacy is going to be? Do you think about that at all? Shania Twain: Well, I don't think too much about the end (laugh). Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Sorry! I don’t want to be dark and grim. It came to my mind because when I was watching this year's Oscars coverage somebody made a comment about Brad Pitt, stating he is at a point in his career where he is starting to think about his legacy. And I'm thinking, "When do you get to that point? When does that happen?" Shania Twain: I'm not sure what my legacy would be. I think I would be better off asking people what they thought, and what they think Shania Twain represents. What is she to them or what is her music to them? Is it the music that's the legacy to them? Allison Kugel: Do you even still have a bucket list at this point? And if so, what's on it? Shania Twain: Ah yeah! I have a few things (this was Shania's favorite question. She absolutely lit up!). One thing on my bucket list is, I want to ride horses in The Bahamas out in nature in The Exumas. That’s on my bucket list. I want to live somewhere in nature, really remote and cut off from the rest of the world for like a month (laugh). And it would be fun to get an Oscar… Allison Kugel: Ha! I was going to ask you about that, but I didn't want to put you on the spot… Shania Twain: That would be a bucket list thing, of course! Why not? I would definitely add an Oscar to my bucket list (laugh). Allison Kugel: Well, I have no doubt that whatever you set your mind to, you can do. Do you pray, Shania? And, if so, who or what do you pray to? Shania Twain: Yes, I do. I pray in the form of meditation. I believe very much in a greater force and a creator. I pray about life, the world, and all existence; and it's very much a part of my daily reflection. I make a point of never asking for anything. I believe that the creator is doing everything at will, and that my role is to fulfill that will. That's what I really believe. Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Shania Twain, well as Eilleen (Twain's birth name) and then Shania Twain; what do you think you came into this life to learn? And what do you think you came here to teach? Shania Twain: Well, I always see my one purpose as fulfilling the will of the creator. That is, again, a genuine deep feeling, and I don't always know what that is. It’s not always clear and I have no idea where I’m going in that sense. But whatever I do, I do it as best as I can and completely commit myself. I think I've probably come into this life to understand how powerful music is, and how much more powerful communication through music is, beyond my own personal plan. I'm always reminded that my music, and anything I put out there as a human being, and as an artist, is just so much greater than I am. I enjoy the feeling of letting it go and it belonging to whoever else it affects. In my case it's on a mass scale. It doesn't belong to me and I don't feel ownership of it, if that makes sense.  Allison Kugel: It makes perfect sense. What do you think you've taught your son, Eja, about woman through him observing your life?
Shania Twain: That women are completely capable of their own independence; independent decision making, independent financial support and independent dreaming. I’ve always been this strong independent female figure in Eja's life, but I’ve reminded him often that I’m not perfect, that I have my flaws and my weaknesses, and that it’s important to have empathy for the people who are there in your life. I hope he's learned that and takes that away with him, because I want him to also realize that he has to be a support to the woman in his life. I want him to understand that we women are not always the pillars of strength. We're not always the rock. A lot of strong women give that impression, that we are and that we can always do everything. It's good for sons to know that we are all human, and we all need each other. Allison Kugel: One day, far off in the future, because I don't want to say it's anytime soon, but at some point when a movie is made about your life, what is the one thing you pray to God they get right? Shania Twain: I would really want the conflicts in my life to be depicted respectfully. There’s been so much up and down in my life, that the way those moments are handled, in my opinion, would be the foundation of a good movie about my life. It would be difficult to cope with all these things that have been so important to me in my life becoming sensationalized. I wouldn't want the integrity of what I've been through to be compromised for the sake of sensationalism, or for my actual story to get abused or exploited. Allison Kugel: Before we say goodbye, I'd like to say thank you. Thank you for the incredible music. Shania Twain: Thank you, I appreciate that. Shania Twain Let's Go! The Las Vegas Residency at Zappos Theater at Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino is running through December 2020. Tickets are on sale through Ticketmaster and Planet Hollywood. Follow @shaniatwain and ShaniaTwain.com. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Rev Run nd Justine Simmons By Allison Kugel In a time when life feels fragile and love can seem fleeting, there are signposts reminding us that life holds immeasurable meaning and love can last a lifetime if we have vision and faith and accrue the tools to sustain what we hold dear. Joseph "Rev Run" Simmons is a living example of iconic musical accomplishment and steady business acumen, but more importantly, as he sees it, he is living example of how to live one's life in faith and love. As Rev Run and his wife Justine Simmons speak with me about their marriage and their new book, Old School Love: And Why It Works, it further brings home the lesson that faith and love are actions we must take every day to ensure a life of substance; one where our relationships and being of service to others takes center stage. During the 1980s and 1990s, Simmons' rap group, Run-D.M.C. pioneered a powerful hip hop sound that acted as a wrecking ball to break new ground and cross into the mass consciousness. Run-D.M.C. helped pioneer rap music's journey from underground urban sensation to mainstream cultural phenomenon. According to Simmons, the fame, wealth, product endorsement deals and magazine covers did little to quell what was lacking within. His first marriage had ended, and he felt he had no spiritual center from which to rebuild. For him, Christianity was the catalyst that helped him find his center and higher purpose, which created the foundation from which to build his marriage to his beautiful wife, Justine Simmons. Audiences then fell in love with their blended family on the long-running MTV docu-series Run's House, and subsequent television shows on The DIY network and the Travel Channel. Their new book, Old School Love, certainly saves the best for last as they open up like never before, sharing the ups and downs and intimate details about their life and their marriage. Simmons' performance at the 2020 Grammy Awards was, indeed, a full circle moment for the artist, reverend and mentor to millions. Below, Joseph "Rev Run" Simmons and his wife Justine Simmons, discuss what makes their marriage and their family rock-solid, and the journey that has gotten them here. Allison Kugel: I want to compliment you on a job well done. I've read many celebrity-authored books, and rarely do I feel compelled to recommend a book. This one I’m going to recommend. I’m a single mom, like your two daughters, Angela and Vanessa, who you write about in the book. Dating can be disheartening, and I found this book inspiring as well as healing. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: What made you feel that way? I’m very interested… Allison Kugel: Reading about your loving, old fashioned courtship makes me feel quite hopeful that such a thing exists. The two of you are emotionally responsible with one another. I love how you speak about being mindful during a conflict, and not being cruel or hitting below the belt, but really taking care of each other's feelings. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Well, thank you! Allison Kugel: You’re very welcome. I watched your family's show, Run's House, when it was on, but this book is different. The two of you get very intimate and really take your fans inside your marriage, and even into your sex life. That's private stuff. What made you want to share those parts of your marriage? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: People have been asking us for the longest to do a book, so we wanted to be very transparent and give people as much help as we could as to the dynamics of why we're here, and how we arrived at this place together. The only way to do that is to go as deep as we could into ourselves, to pour it out to you. Allison Kugel: Justine, what do you have to say? Justine Simmons: Joey and I so wanted to help people in their marriage, so much so, that we wanted to give them our all and say, "This is what we are doing, and hopefully if you try it this way it could help you in your own marriage." We know it's not easy. We were blessed to have mentors that were trying to make their marriages work, so we had that early on to look at and see how to make our own marriage work. We just wanted to make sure we gave you all the lessons we've learned over the years. Allison Kugel: Are you that couple in your social circle that people go to for advice about their relationships? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: We feel it when we walk down the street. We feel people wanting to look up to us. Because of the television show, Run's House, not just close friends, it almost feels like the world, whether they know us or not, feel that way. Run's House was so impactful in that way. I don't really get cornered by couples per se, but I get cornered by the world at large, to just feel admired by them. Justine Simmons: Maybe one or two couples have come to us, but I’d rather not say names. If you notice, on Run's House, we showed ourselves going to church and different things like that. We tried to lead by example. Even on our cooking show (Rev Run's Sunday Suppers) and our renovation show (Rev Run's Renovation), we always tried to lead by example. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Do as we do, not what we say. That's what was so good about our reality shows. Michael Jordan never told people, "Here's how to dunk the ball." He just dunked, and (the late) Kobe [Bryant] became inspired. You can feel our truth, and it's been inspiring. Justine Simmons: So many people would comment on my husband's Instagram, asking us to please put out a book, or saying, "You guys should write a book!"  Allison Kugel: Rev, what have you done differently in your marriage to Justine that you didn't do in your first marriage? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: I was young. I was on the road, and when I came back home and off the road, I didn't have what I needed. I was too young. Later, I went to church, and I had time to slow down and really be more attentive. Allison Kugel: Like other famous families, your marriage and your family are also a brand and a business. Are there ever times when the brand clashes with your personal relationship? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: No. We never leaned too hard on making it a brand. It was always a tool to help. Run's House wasn't about trying to sell clothing or sell jewelry, or to sell anything. We were trying to convey a message of family, of love and of being connected. That's all it was ever about. We never tried to turn it into a booming business. Justine Simmons: My husband also really tried hard to not take things in that direction, like, "No, we're not doing that, because it might start this." Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Right, it might bring a wedge between me and my wife. We were very careful with that. I put a little bit into business, but I think I put more into my family than I do into chasing business deals, my ego, and trying to be the top entrepreneur, or the top rapper, or top anything anymore. I can see the pitfalls coming towards me, and I’ve watched it too much. I can just feel that if I put too much energy in another direction it will hurt my family. My intuition knows best. Allison Kugel: Your faith in God and the guidance that both of you get from your bible study, it's a tremendous part of your life and your marriage, and it's woven throughout your book. We know that everyone has different beliefs when it comes to God, religion and spirituality. Do you think it's possible to get through this earthly life, to weather the storms, and to be able to answer the big questions, without having a relationship with God? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: No. I believe that you do the best you can; you push, and then you hope for the serendipity and the grace. You want that favor. I read a quote that once said, “I don't believe in miracles, I depend on them.” I love that quote. Justine had a friend years ago and she used to just say, “Jus, He did it again!” I thought it was so cute. I didn't know how religious her friend was, but that used to always touch me and tickle me. God really likes to come and play with us, talk with us, help us, encourage us. I know that faith without works is dead. But works without faith is also dead. Allison Kugel: Let's talk about parenting. I am of the mind that if a child is starting to go off course, or anyone you love for that matter, my feeling is the last thing they need is screaming and yelling, and punishing, and being made to feel further isolated. I feel that if a child is making poor decisions, it's because they're in pain and in need of healing. I think the best thing you can do is to move closer to them, communicate with them, show them compassion, hug them, and listen to what is causing that pain or confusion. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Yes, people around me were very shocked because when my daughter Vanessa first got pregnant, everybody thought all these things about how I would react, because it feels like I’m such a disciplinary type of figure. But I’m actually loose on people, because I don't want the same reaction to my mistakes. I go hard to make life better if I can, but I don't judge. I’ve let many of my children walk through whatever they had to walk through until they figured it out. The Bible says, "Teach your child, and they should go when they get older and they won't depart from it." I’m a firm believer in that. Justine Simmons: These days you can try your best and kids are going to do what they want. As parents, of course, we can try to shorten the distance for their mistakes, but some of them want to make their own mistakes. It’s not easy, but you're going to have to let it go and let them learn from their mistakes. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Let them learn and let them figure out their life for themselves. Allison Kugel: Was there ever a make or break moment in your marriage, a time when you thought, "This is either going to split us up, or it's going to make our marriage rock solid."? Justine Simmons: For us, no, not at all. The word "divorce" isn't in our circle. Phrases like "split for a minute," or "need a break, and you do your thing for a minute," those words and statements weren't even in our [vocabulary]. We don't let that into our marriage at all. No separation option, no divorce option. You don't bring those in. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Don't even bring that up in conversation. We've been very fortunate to not have had to experience that. We've been very blessed in that area of marriage, so I don't want to take all the credit. We're going to give it to God, but we conduct ourselves with a lot of love and with a lot of respect for one another. When you have that respect, you're not going to do something so hurtful to get to that place. The thing that breaks up relationships is the lack of respect. That's it. If I think I'm about to do something that is going to make her very mad, I don't do it. I do annoying husband stuff, like put my clothes on the floor and little stuff that she can get over, but I try my best not to do anything that is extremely hard to forgive. Justine Simmons: I don't want him walking around angry at me all day, and he doesn't want me walking around angry at him all day, so we're trying to make each other happy and you would think more people would think like that. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: We forgive a lot. A lot of people are selfish instead of selfless. You've got to be more selfless and less selfish. You've got to meet in the middle. It's all about giving. It’s all about forgiving and giving and respect. Period. Justine Simmons: And we argue all the time Joseph Rev Run Simmons: All the time, like an old couple does. One of my favorite memes is an old couple sitting in the rain, pissed off, but the gentleman is still holding the umbrella over her head. It's a beautiful cartoon picture that I've posted before, and I see it all over the internet. Allison Kugel: That sums it up. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Yeah! I’m mad, but I’m not going to let the rain get on you.  Allison Kugel: Rev, I want to back up a bit and talk about Run-D.M.C. In those days, you hadn't found your faith yet, but as a young man something gave you the faith and the courage to believe that you could, not just become a hip hop artist, but that you could revolutionize pop music culture. What fueled you?
Joseph Rev Run Simmons: I was just making music. I give a lot to God because you're making music, you're having fun and you have a lot of people working with you. The mainstream thing has a lot to do with our producers. Larry Smith, Russell Simmons, Rick Rubin… all these people around you. Run-D.M.C. and Jam Master Jay weren't alone. There were producers, record companies, managers, publicity people. No man is an island. I knew I had a God given [talent] and you go really hard because you're born with this ambition. You have ambition and competitiveness to back up the talent. All of it added up to success. Allison Kugel: Speaking of the late Jam Master Jay, how do you process loss? And how do you process the death of a loved one, especially when it appears to be under tragic circumstances, at least from our side of things on earth? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: I get very spiritual during times of loss. I’m able to mourn and comfort those around me as I mourn. I get comforted by comforting, and by being comforted by loved ones. Allison Kugel: Do you get angry at all? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: I don't, no. I don't get into those emotions often. I’m a very non- confrontational type of person. I’m a "live and let live" person, so I don't get caught up in too much conflict with people. At least, I try my best not to. Allison Kugel: You both talk in your book about your little girl, Victoria, who died shortly after birth; and then the adoption of your daughter, Miley. The way I interpreted all of it was that Victoria came to you briefly to teach you some profound lessons about love, loss and about trusting in God. Miley came to you as the child you were meant to raise for a lifetime. Does that make sense? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Agreed! You hit that right out of the park. You said it perfectly. Justine Simmons: We could not have said it better than you. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: I was humbled. You don't have babies; God gives you babies. Justine originally wanted to adopt and I said, "Let's just have a baby." God showed me after we lost our baby Victoria, that for me, personally, you don't make babies. That was the first lesson. The second lesson was that my wife is so sweet, she had wanted to adopt. Finally, the third lesson was that Miley needed us and we needed Miley. Sometimes Justine forgets that she didn't carry Miley, and that's the real crazy part. Justine Simmons: So many women who cannot have babies, I want them to know that adopting is so amazing. Because I carried Victoria full term, it would make me forget that I didn't carry Miley. And she has so many traits of mine. We eat the same types of things, and sometimes I just say, "Girl, you came out of me," and she laughs. Allison Kugel: What advise do the two of you have for single people of this generation who are dating and looking for a partner? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated. Go where you're adored, not where you're ignored. If the person is not answering the phone, not answering your texts and they're playing little games and you can feel it, be ready for the red flags. People will show you who they really are. Believe them. Justine Simmons: That's good. And if you have children, make sure they love your children as much as they love you. If they don't show that, you'll see it in the beginning and that person is not for you. Allison Kugel: Rev, do you see yourself as a teacher, first and foremost? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: I believe I’m here to inspire people. I inspire though music, and I think I inspire through my marriage. Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts on celebrities as role models for young people? Good thing, bad thing? Can it be a positive thing in the right context? Or do you think role models should be sought within your family, community or place of worship? Joseph Rev Run Simmons: Everything around you can inspire you. Beyoncé inspires you to go hard when you make your music. Jay-Z and Puff Daddy inspire through their entrepreneurship? Leonardo DiCaprio inspires people as a great actor and with how hard he works. And you have those that are your mother, your father, your pastor, but there's inspiration everywhere. Justine Simmons: I have to concur with my husband. You can learn through anything. You can even learn from a homeless person, from how they endure and how they get through a whole winter. They're so resilient. They make it through. Even a homeless person has something to teach. Joseph Rev Run Simmons: The Bible says, “Go to the ants, you sluggard; consider their ways and be wise." Ants work hard all day long. You can learn something from an ant, according to the Bible. This article is dedicated in memory of Kobe Bryant (1978 – 2020), Gianna Bryant, John Altobelli, Keri Altobelli, Alyssa Altobelli and other victims of the Calabasas helicopter crash. Old School Love: And Why It Works (Dey Street Books) by Joseph "Rev Run" Simmons and Justine Simmons is available on Amazon and wherever books are sold. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Joseph Rev Run Simmons' and Justine Simmons' personal collection  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Tionne T-Boz Watkins By Allison Kugel TLC's Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins' life is one filled with overcoming insurmountable odds and finding blessings in unexpected places. Watkins was diagnosed with sickle cell disease at the age of seven and spend much of her childhood in and out of hospitals due to episodes with the potentially fatal condition. She was told she wouldn't make it past early adulthood. Her family's move from Des Moines, Iowa to Atlanta, Georgia when Watkins was nine, and a chance meeting former singer and music executive Perri "Pebbles" Reid and her then-husband L.A. Reid would launch T-Boz, Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes and Rozonda "Chilli" Thomas into the stratosphere as the biggest selling girl group in music history, taking home four Grammy awards and selling sixty five millions albums, worldwide throughout their career. For all it's success, TLC has endured a roller coaster of ups and downs over the last thirty years, the biggest blow being the loss of group member Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes in a 2002 car cash, and taking away one third of the lightning in a bottle that made them superstars. Resolute in their will to go on, T-Boz and Chilli have continued to record music and tour, most recently co-headlining a tour with Nelly and Flo Rida which continues through this summer. These days T-Boz is reveling in the most recent chapter of her life as mom to daughter Chase and son Chance, author of the 2017 memoir, A Sick Life, and co-creator of her newly launched line of CBD-infused healthy and beauty products, aptly called TLCBD. I recently caught up with T-Boz, and our lengthy conversation ran the gamut with nothing left off the table. Allison Kugel: Is there a prominent memory or flashback from your life, whether it's a really great memory that you love to re-visit, or even something that wasn't so great, that helped shape you? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: I always think about the first time I saw each of my kids. No matter what’s going on in my life, that will give me a good feeling and a smile. Anytime I’m having a terrible time, I try to think about what the best thing in my life is, and that is my two kids. I think about the first time I ever saw them, and that’s a feeling you can't really describe. Allison Kugel: At what age did you feel yourself make the transition from a girl into a woman? Was there a particular event, or did it just kind of hit you one day? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: You know when I think I felt like a woman? It's probably when we did the video for the song, Creep. Everybody thought we were so mature looking in that video, and I didn't think of myself like that until grown men started trying to talk to us. Before that there was always this stigma about us [looking] so young. Allison Kugel: Is that when you felt like a woman, or when you felt like people saw you that way? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: I think that's when people saw me as a woman, but then that started making me feel like I was a woman, you know what I mean? And when you start seeing yourself as that, you start acting a little differently, like, "Oh, I got some grown and sexy going on now (laughs)." I used to be so skinny and I would wear two pair of pants to look curvier. I was tired of guys saying, "She's cute." I was like, when are they going to say, "She's fine," and when am I going to get some grown woman hips? Allison Kugel: Do you talk to Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes when you're alone? And has there ever been an unmistakable sign that she's around you? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: No, I don't want to talk to anybody who's passed away, because that's spooky (laugh). Allison Kugel: That stuff doesn't spook me out. I think it's kind of cool to think we can communicate back and forth with those who have passed. Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: I don't talk to anyone that passed away in my family. But I think about them, or I talk about them. That’s my way. I'm one of those people where I don't even like to go to grave sights because that's not a good memory for me, and I don't feel like they know I’m there. But I also feel like they know the love I have for them, and I always have psychics come up to me and tell me that Lisa is with me. Allison Kugel: Do they say something specific enough where you know they're for real? Because you guys are famous, do they give you something to let you know it's the real deal? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Yeah, absolutely, I know it's the real deal. They tell me that she watches over my kids, but the stuff they've told me, there is no way they would know it! Only me and Lisa would know that stuff. At first it creeped me out a little bit, because I was like, "Wait a minute. Does that mean she's watching me all the time?" Then I got used to it, and it's not a bad thing because she's watching over us. Allison Kugel: I’m sure she's not watching you in the shower and that kind of thing, but who knows (laugh). Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: I hope not, but it's not like we haven't seen each other naked before. We were like family, so we did everything together. Allison Kugel: Were you happy with the way TLC's final album (the group's fifth and final album, titled "TLC" was released in 2017) turned out? Do you feel it was a good swan song? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: No, I don't. I feel like it wasn't worked good enough. I don't even like the song Haters; I'm going to be honest. I think that was a terrible choice as our second single. I believe there were better songs we should've gone with, that were deeper. We have a song called American Gold. It was right before Trump came into office and there was all this uproar with black men who were dying and being abused and killed by the cops, including my cousin who was murdered by cops and shot 18 times with an AR15, and he was mentally ill. The reason that song is so important is because we hit on all of that, and you know how you bleed and die for your American gold? Just being American is tough these days, especially when you're black. That song would have really hit home in a lot of places, kind of the way Waterfalls did, if the right visuals had been put to it. Allison Kugel: You think the music video for Waterfalls was a key element for people getting the song? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Some people didn't get Waterfalls at first, until the visuals came [with the music video] and brought that song to life. If visuals were put to American Gold, it could have been a big song. It could have been deep for certain people, especially for people who fought for our country. At the end, the album was too rushed, and I felt forced to not finish some of the songs that I could have finished. Allison Kugel: Let's get into your CBD line, which you've named TLCBD. Over the years you've had a rough time recording music and touring, while dealing with flare ups and hospitalizations from your sickle cell anemia. On this current TLC tour (co-headlining with Flo Rida and Nelly), you've said that using CBD kept you healthier. Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Oh Absolutely! Before I started taking CBD, you can go back through our history and they would tell you, "T-Boz is sick, T-Boz has ruined another tour." It's not a cure, but since being on it, I don't get sick as often. I’m way stronger and when I do get sick it's not as bad or for as long. On this last tour, I broke my rib and I was able to still perform with a broken rib. A long time ago that would have sent me into a sickle cell crisis. Because I was on CBD, I was able to go to the hospital for one day, get fluids for the pain and some lidocaine patches and take some CBD cream, bomb and tincture, and I made it through. I didn't ruin the tour. This is the third tour I've been on that I haven't gotten sick or had to cancel.  Allison Kugel: Knock on wood, that’s awesome. How did you figure out that CBD could ease your symptoms? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: The medicines that the doctors give you keep you in a weakened state. If you're weak, it's easier to get sick because the sickle cell attacks the weakest part of your body. If you stay weak, you're going to stay sick, so I was sick every three months and going into hospitals. Someone suggested CBD and I tried it. At first, I didn't feel any different. Then I started noticing that I was feeling stronger. I wasn't getting as sick as often, and I don't even have a good working spleen. Your spleen is what helps you fight off colds and diseases. I lost my spleen, but I grew two accessory spleens which is totally crazy. I didn't know you can grow an organ back. God has been looking out for me! Any time someone had a cold around me, I would always catch the cold to the 10th power, but now I wasn't even catching cooties (laugh). Allison Kugel: For systemic issues you ingest it, and for injuries you use it topically… Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Yeah, we have a balm which is kind of the consistency of shea butter for our line, TLCBD, and then our CBD tincture is what you drop on your tongue. We have beauty oils for wrinkles and keeping your face together. It's moisturizing, and after wearing all that make up and being in different climates every other day, it really moisturizes my skin. Allison Kugel: Was Chilli cool with you naming your CBD line TLCBD? Or was she wanting a cut because you're using the TLC name? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: It's just a play on words. At first it was called Cure Holistic, but there is a Cure CBD. When one of my partners came up with TLCBD, usually I hate using anything TLC-related, but it was cute. I said that at first too, but when I talked to all my people, they said that it's just a play on words, it's not a TLC product. I don't get mad if she goes somewhere and says "Chilli with TLC," so no, she wasn't mad. But if it was a TLC product, and it just said "TLC," then yeah, I would owe her a cut. Allison Kugel: What is the wisest advice you've ever been given, and how has it impacted your life? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: My momma told me if I kept my morals, my integrity and my character intact, she would support anything I did. That's what's gotten me through. She also said to always be the best in anything you choose to do. She said, "I don't care if you choose to be a garbage truckdriver. Make sure you pick up that garbage good, girl." At the end of the day, it’s about respecting myself. Nobody else will respect me if I don't respect myself, and it starts with me. Allison Kugel: Good Advice. Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: That's the best advice I could have been given, especially in this industry, at 19 years old, with a whole bunch of nasty men trying to just prowl and take advantage of young girls. That never bothered me, because I always had my self-respect, self-esteem and self-worth. Allison Kugel: What do you have faith in? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: God! That's pretty much it. Period. Allison Kugel: How do you define God for yourself? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: How do I define God? I’ve never been asked that before. I know I have a relationship with God, and I know that God exists for me. I don't push my beliefs on anybody else, but I know when people, and even doctors, walk out of the room and they can't explain why I'm still here (referring to her sickle cell disease). I know there’s something up there higher than me that made it possible. When your doctor comes out and says, "I don't even know how she's doing this, because I didn't do it…" Alison Kugel: This is something that I ask everybody, and it's really something to meditate on if you've never thought about it before. What do you believe you are here on this earth, as Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins, to learn? What do you think your soul came here to learn in this lifetime? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: I used to always wonder why I got through things, like, why I lived and why my cousin died, and why we had the same disease. I used to wonder why I'm here and what my purpose was. Then, not so long ago, maybe the last seven to eight years, I figured my purpose here was to help people, whether it's through music or through sharing my testimony and being a ray of hope for someone. I've also learned to push past my fears. I used to hate speaking in front to people. I’ve learned to face my fears, and I’ve learned that I'm an open book. And I like to learn… about people, about things… it just makes me more of a people person so that I can better help someone else.  Allison Kugel: That falls in line with what the late Dr. Maya Angelou said. "When you learn, teach. At our best, we are all teachers."
Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Yes! When I talk to the kids that I speak to, I try to help them from the inside out. When it comes to health-related issues, for example, if you have cancer, lupus, sickle cell, AIDS, or even if you are 100% healthy but you're continually stressed out, you can die. So if you already have an ailment and your boyfriend is cheating on you, or you're getting beat up at home, or your child's on drugs, or whatever the stress may be; you have to try to control the stuff that you can control and get as much stress out of your life as possible, because it will kill you. But it's especially true if you're already dealing with an illness. I’ve just learned to be a better person; the best version of me. I'm working towards that every day, so I can do what I’m here to do, and live whatever my purpose is meant to be on this earth. I truly believe that's to help people. Allison Kugel: I was going to ask you what you're here to teach, but I think you just covered that! Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: (Laugh) That was a good question, though. I like your questions. Allison Kugel: Thank you. Let's get to some fun stuff. When you're on tour in your 40s, are there tour shenanigans with the other artists, or are you in bed under the covers by 10:00 PM at this stage of the game? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: (Laugh) I'm not in bed, but I am boring. I like to watch movies, but I'm up all night. I'm a night owl, and I go to bed at like three, four or five in the morning. But they always say my bus is the crunk bus, and Chilli's bus is the grandma bus (laugh). They call her grandma, and they call me auntie. So, my bus is the loud one. It's music and fun, but we used to get wild when Lisa was alive. We used to have this thing we would do called "penis on the bus." Anytime a guy would come on the bus, we would be like, “Penis on the bus!” and we would try to act like we were going to pull their pants down. But it was funny, because we would always know who had a little penis or who had a big one, because the people would just lay there, like, "Go ahead." And the ones that had little penises would almost, like, kill us before we could pull their pants down. So, we were like, "Dang, we just playing! Don't kill me. We weren't really gonna pull your penis out." Hello! Allison Kugel: And they say only the male artists are bad on tour. Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Yeah, we were really bad, but penis on the bus was fun. Allison Kugel: That’s funny, okay. How are you feeling about your upcoming 50th birthday in April? Tionne: I want to do something special, because usually I just go to a Mexican restaurant to eat for my birthday. I don't really do much, because I’m kind of a homebody. But for my 50th, I think I should celebrate all year long, because I never go on vacation. My plan is to go to Bora Bora, Tahiti, Thailand. I’ve always wanted to stay in one of those huts in the ocean, or the big bungalows with the pool. I'm going to one of those countries, if not all three. I canceled a tour that we had around my birthday. They wanted me to work on my birthday, that ain't gonna happen, especially my 50th! That’s a big celebration. They were going to try to do a big sickle cell telethon type thing. I don't know if that's going to happen, because it might take too long to put together, and my birthday will pass by then. Celebrating 50, for me, is a super blessing being that I was told I wouldn't live past 30. Allison Kugel: Wow! Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: I’m like YEAHHHHH! Allison Kugel: That’s amazing! Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: That's a celebration within itself. Yeah, it's a blessing and I love it. Allison Kugel: What are you hoping the year 2020 brings you, in all areas of your life? Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins: Health and joy, because joy to me is better than happiness. Happiness is momentary. You can get a car, and then a new car comes out and you want that one. So, joy, to me, is the kind of peace that you can't buy. If you have joy in your heart, that has to be the most peaceful kind of love and light. I just want to reach that, whatever that is. I want peace, love, joy and health, and that's it. I want all my loved ones around me to be healthy, too. If we have that, I’m Gucci. Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins established her CBD line, TLCBD, fueled by the desire to share ethical, effective CBD products with her fans. Visit TionneWellness.com to learn more about TLCBD. For TLC's upcoming tour dates, visit OfficialTLC.com. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Tionne "T-Boz" Watkins, Marc Sacro, Penguin Random House  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Lindsey Vonn By Allison Kugel The new HBO documentary, Lindsey Vonn: The Final Season (premiering November 26th at 10pm ET), is anything but that for the Olympic gold medal winner and former World Alpine Ski Racer. While 2019 was her final push down the slopes as a professional ski racer, Lindsey Vonn The Brand, is coming into a new season and picking up steam. Known to some as a beautiful pop culture figure (a vison of her blonde braided hair amid piles of snow conjures Frozen's Elsa) with a famous dating history, and to others as one of the most kick-ass girls to ever put on a pair of skis, "A Mighty Girl" doesn't quite cover the drive, discipline and talent that Vonn represents in a culture overrun with vapid beauty and shallow notoriety. With eighty-two World Cup races and two Olympic gold medals under her belt, Lindsey Vonn is a testament to the power of practice and hard work; two qualities that seem to be ailing in our current Insta-fame climate. The detailed personal and professional moments that Vonn shares in her documentary will recalibrate your definition of success and make you fall back in love with the small triumphs along the way to the big win, which as Lindsey Vonn knows, holds as much value as the destination in the distance. Vonn will also soon be highlighting the peaks and valleys of her life in her upcoming memoir, Rise (Dey Street Books), out in March of 2020. During our conversation, Lindsey and I spoke about her unconventional and remarkable life, both on and off skis, how she is coping post-retirement, and what she hopes the younger generation will learn from her journey. Allison Kugel: One of the big takeaways I got from your HBO documentary, Lindsey Vonn: The Final Season, is that from afar success looks glamorous, but up close, success looks like a lot of hard work. Lindsey Vonn: One hundred percent. That's exactly spot on! People just see the end result. They see the Olympic Gold and they see me winning World Cup races. They never see what goes into it; how you got there, the sacrifices you've made and the hours in the gym. That's why I've always liked sharing my story on Instagram and on my social media, because I want people to know that it's not just this glamorous life. Allison Kugel: Take me through what it's really been like… Lindsey Vonn: I'd be up at 5 AM and have all my meals specially portioned and made and go to the gym and work hard. Then I would do my rehab, and there's always injuries and surgeries. It's a full-time job. It's been my [life] and my goal since I was nine years old and it's been a very long journey. I think that's why I'm so proud of this documentary. It gives a pretty good picture of, especially how this last season went, with the pain and sacrifice. My team has gotten me through so much in my career. It's not just the smiley, glamorous photo finish at the end. It takes a lot to get to that point. I wanted to break the World Cup win record and I wanted to have this great swan song. Then, three days in, I tore my knee up. It didn’t go the way we had hoped, but I'm really happy we made this documentary. Looking back, it's something I can share with my kids someday, and something that will show more of who I am, not just as a champion, but as a hard worker. Allison Kugel: Do you have the clarity and perspective to, rather than zeroing in on that one win-record you didn't break due to your injury, to sit back and see the entire picture of your successful career? Lindsey Vonn: It's difficult to think about that record (her dogs, including Lucy, who shares the screen with Vonn in her documentary, interrupts)…  Allison Kugel: By the way, how cute is your dog Lucy in this film? I love how she keeps you company during some lonely moments, and how she keeps your morale up. It was so sweet to watch. Lindsey Vonn: They're the best. Especially during my surgeries, they're always there for me and they always want me, no matter what. They [all] made me feel so much better. I honestly don't know how I would have gotten through all the surgeries and all those lonely days at home with my leg up, and in pain, without them. I'll get back to your other question. I lost my train of thought (laughs)… Allison Kugel: Totally my fault! (Laughs) I just had to tell you that Lucy stole the show in every scene she's in, in your documentary. How could I not bring that up? Lindsay Vonn: It was so funny… at the premiere, every time Lucy was on the screen everyone was cheering and laughing. I put her in a human baby onesie for the world championships and everyone was hysterically laughing at that moment in the film, during the premiere. It made me so happy, because she is the star of the show! Allison Kugel: Cutest thing ever! Okay, back to the other topic. I know from experience that perfectionists always zero in on the things that didn't go perfectly rather than the big picture… Lindsey Vonn: Big picture, I'm proud of everything I've accomplished, but it's taken me a moment to get there. I've always been so goal oriented. Throughout the course of my entire career, I would set the goal and I met it. This one was the only goal I hadn't met (breaking Ingemar Stenmark's record). I think for all the goals I've set, to not accomplish one is totally fine. I am a perfectionist, so I always want to be perfect, and you can't be. No one is, and like I said in my documentary, "Who actually gets a fairytale ending?" Very few people, and in the end, I did something I didn't think I could do, which is getting a bronze medal in the World Championships with no ligaments, basically. That ending was more than I could have asked for given the situation. Allison Kugel: In this Instagram, picture-perfect world that young girls are exposed to, do you see yourself as a role model? Lindsey Vonn: It's what I have always strived for with my foundation (The Lindsey Vonn Foundation), to show girls that they have to believe in themselves. Social media [images], bullies and people online, that's not real. It's all about how you view yourself and how much you believe in yourself. There have been so many people in my life that have said that I wasn't going to make it, and that I wasn't good enough. I never believed them; I believed in myself. It's always what I've been trying to get across to young girls and young kids. This film is a great platform for that message to have a much louder voice. Allison Kugel: I don't know if you are a spiritual person. But I believe that everybody's soul comes here to learn specific lessons and that we all have certain themes that are pre-written into our life, path for the purpose. Your mom suffered a stroke while giving birth to you. At the age of 11, your entire family relocated from Saint Paul, Minnesota to Vail, Colorado for the benefit of your career. There's been a lot of sacrifice on your behalf. Did that make you feel like doing well wasn't good enough? Like you had to do great things to justify all that sacrifice? And has it felt like a weight on you? Lindsey Vonn: It has felt like a weight at times, but I've always felt like my life had a purpose and that skiing was my purpose. Now that I'm older, I feel like skiing has gotten me to a point where I have a platform and I can do so many positive things with that platform. But growing up, I always had this feeling that everything happens for a reason and there's a reason I'm here. There's a reason that things happened to me the way they did. I never lost faith in my goals because I believed that. I don’t know how to explain it except to say that there is this weird sense of purpose that I have always had, since I was nine years old. That's what's gotten me through a lot of times.  Allison Kugel: You talk about the amazing adrenaline rush that you would get from competitive ski racing, which I would imagine gave you an incredible high. When you are used to those extreme highs, have you experienced depression since ending your career, from not having those extreme adrenaline highs?
Lindsey Vonn: I got pretty depressed, not from the sudden lack of adrenaline, which I was shocked about, by the way. It was more from no longer having the same goal every day. For almost my entire life, I've woken up and my singular focus has been skiing. I had business, photo shoots and workouts, but for all those years the center of my universe had been skiing. Suddenly, I came home from the world championships, I woke up and I didn't have it anymore. It was a very difficult time where I struggled to find balance. I've struggled to be happy without skiing. I feel like I have made progress with a lot of therapy. P.K. (Vonn's fiancé, NHL hockey player, P.K. Subban) has been the rock in my life and someone who has given so much more purpose and so much more perspective and has really gotten me through this period in my life. It's difficult for any athlete, but especially when I've been a professional athlete for almost twenty years. I'm thankful that he's been there, as well as my sisters and the rest of my family. Allison Kugel: P.K. is still playing pro-hockey, so when he is ready to retire, down the road, you'll be able to be there for him through that transition. Lindsey Vonn: He's going to play for about six to eight years, so it will be awhile before he retires. He understands it to a certain degree, but there are some things that even I didn't expect. I had been prepared to retire, but there are certain things that, when it happens, it's somehow different. I'll be here to help him, and hopefully we'll have a family at that point so that will make it a lot easier. Allison Kugel: Do you see yourself having a baby in the next year or two? Lindsey Vonn: Yeah. We want to get married first. We're traditional… and also not traditional at the same time (laughs). I'm thirty-five, so we want to start having a family before I miss out on the opportunity. Allison Kugel: A good part of your own childhood was spent preparing for a professional skiing career. Are you looking forward to experiencing a traditional childhood vicariously through your own children? Lindsey Vonn: Not really, to be honest. I feel like with social media and everything going on these days, childhood is more difficult. I think it's going to be a challenge, but if and when we have kids, social media will still be around, but hopefully it will be reshaped and not as toxic for young kids. Allison Kugel: What do you think you are here in this life as Lindsey Vonn to learn? Lindsey Vonn: I don't think I'm here just to learn one thing. I think I am here to learn a lot. I feel like I learn things from every person that I meet, from all walks of life. I always ask questions and I always want to make myself a better person. Allison Kugel: What are you here to teach? Lindsey Vonn: In teaching, I want to pass everything I've learned on to the next generation. I'm hoping to continue to share my experiences and give girls the confidence they need to be amazing adults. Allison Kugel: When you become the subject of one of those kids' biographies that they're making now, the Who Is/WhoWas series (Penguin Young Readers) of books which I love, and when kids read the Who Is Lindsey Vonn? book, which they will, what do you want them to take away from your life story? Lindsey Vonn: When you fall, pick yourself back up. Everyone has obstacles in their life. No matter how big or how small, we all have challenges. It's how you pick yourself back up that counts. Failure is only failure if you don't pick yourself back up. Never stay down. Lindsey Vonn: The Final Season premieres November 26th at 10pm ET/PT on HBO, HBO Go and HBO Now, and is available on HBO OnDemand November 27th. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Photo of Lindsey in Ski Gear, Courtesy of Lindsey Vonn Red Carpet Photos Courtesy of Jeff Mayer/FilmMagic for HBO Poster photo courtesy of HBO  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Vanessa Williams By Allison Kugel Vanessa Williams is a creature unlike any other. It's as though she came here to impart the ins and outs of living life on one's own terms. From unwitting societal lightning rod during the 1980s to multi-platinum selling recording artist; and Broadway, film and television star, Vanessa Williams slayed the male-dominated Hollywood dragon long before the #MeToo movement happened. You can tell from talking to her that, both, the scars of past judgment she endured, and the fruits of her sweet success have made their impact. Both created indelible imprints. In more recent years, Williams stunned audiences with sultry scene-stealing characters on hit series like Desperate Housewives and Ugly Betty. Her recent film starring Orange is the New Black's Uzo Aduba, Miss Virginia, tackles the socio-economic and educational inequities that urban students of color endure, showcasing a more socially conscious film portrayal. Vanessa Williams' exotic beauty strikes you dead on arrival, but Williams does not lead with her looks. She prefers to enter a conversation with intellect, boldness and strength. Williams is now preparing to take her Broadway-honed stage skills across the pond to London's West End, where she will be starring in a production of City of Angels, opening at the Garrick Theatre in 2020. She's also added fashion designer to her packed resume, launching the sexy and sophisticated Vanessa Williams collection for HSN, and fresh on the heels of a multi-album deal with BMG, Williams is working on new music to reflect a collection of musical genres she is currently passionate about. A renaissance woman for the ages, Vanessa Williams' life is nothing if not purposeful. Allison Kugel: Something told me to read your 2012 memoir, You Have No Idea, which I read cover to cover yesterday. I'm so glad I read your book, because it was the missing piece to really understanding you. The one constant theme throughout your life, it seems, is that you are a natural born rebel! Vanessa Williams: (Laughs) Yeah. Allison Kugel: That quality plays out in one way when we're young, but changes as we get older. How do you express that side of yourself now? Vanessa Williams: It's now about being unafraid to take chances. In terms of my career, I just signed on to do City of Angels on the West End [of London]. It’s not a lot of money, but it is an opportunity to work on the West End. It's always been a dream of mine to live overseas, and to study in London. I'll be working at the Garrick Theatre. We start rehearsals in January, we open in March, and the show will be running until the end of July. There are no guarantees, in terms of leaving my life in the states behind, but it's something that excites me. At this stage of my life it's all about asking myself what I want to do that I've never done. The challenge of it excites me, and doing the same thing bores me. Allison Kugel: When nude photos of you surfaced during your 1984 reign as Miss America and you were forced to relinquish your crown ten and a half months into your year-long reign, you were counted out there for a while in your twenties. Do you ever pat yourself on the back these days and say, "I did it!"? Broadway, films, television, platinum-selling recording artist and on and on… do you feel vindicated? Vanessa Williams: No, I really don't. I don't think that, because there's always that next goal, like, "but I want to originate a role on Broadway;" "but I want to do a movie musical." There is always something yet to be done. It's not that I'm never satisfied, but there is always another goal on the horizon. When you're an actor, it's like being a gypsy. You jump into another circle of players, and it’s great. Then when it's over, it's heartbreaking, but then you're ready to move on to the next circle. That's what excites me and that's what will always propel me to say, "Ok, what's next?"  Allison Kugel: Clearly, you value adventure over routine. Vanessa Williams: Well, I look at some people who have been on the same show for eleven or twelve seasons, and it's a great cash cow. It's great to have that kind of consistent salary where you can budget and put money away. God bless everyone who has had a series on the air for ten years, but there is an energy that keeps you kind of hungry when you are always looking for the next thing and you don't know what that next thing is. Allison Kugel: I want to go back a bit and talk about the beginning. I think people may forget because it was so long ago, but you broke through a pretty significant glass ceiling in your twenties by being crowned the first African American Miss America. You became this societal lightning rod at the time. In 2008, when President Obama was elected as our first African American president, did you feel a connection or kind of kinship with him, since he broke a barrier in a similar way? Vanessa Williams: Oh, absolutely, in terms of his safety, and his presence was worldwide. But there is an expectation that comes with that honor of breaking barriers. It's also a tremendous fear, not only for yourself, but for family members; because there is such division, which doesn’t seem to leave us. I thought it was over in the 1980s and it wasn’t; I thought it was over in the 2000s and it wasn’t; and, obviously, it's still apparent now. So, there is a specific fear and uncertainty that you have, but you have to be brave and you have to continue to do what you were chosen to do, and the job that is before you. Allison Kugel: Had you ever had that conversation with President Obama about that? Vanessa Williams: I met him right before he began his run for president. I've been on the Special Olympics international board for years, and I was on Capitol Hill with the Special Olympics meeting people and trying to raise money for our group. I met him right off the heels of that wonderful speech he'd given at the Democratic National Convention, and word was out that he was someone to watch. I gave my little spiel about how we needed more funding for the Special Olympics. I could see the appeal, and then he announced. When he announced that he was going to run for president, I was definitely in his corner. My mother was coming from the perspective of having lived through Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. being assassinated, and Kennedy being assassinated, and she was fearful for his life. That’s the generation that she grew up in. I felt that it could happen, and she also, of course, had some issues with it. It just showed the fear that was due to where my mother's generation had come from. Allison Kugel: What have you learned about love? What's been your greatest love lesson? Vanessa Williams: I'm lucky to have four children, and there is nothing like that love; a love like that never ends. Once they're out of the house, you're still, as a mom, always available. You're still always worried (laughs) and concerned. And you're still always extremely proud, no matter their age or what they are doing. Allison Kugel: How do you take care of your body, mind and spirit; and what's your feel-good routine? Vanessa Williams: My feel good is waking up with a good cup of coffee and doing a crossword puzzle in the sun. That starts my day off perfectly. And when I get a chance to explore and travel, I love to horseback ride, wherever I am, and go to the stables and find a horse and go on an adventure and explore the terrain on horseback. Spending time at home is also a joy for me. I'm on the road traveling so much, so my happy place is kicking off my shoes and hanging out at home. Allison Kugel: You’re a practicing Catholic and you attend Church regularly, but in your most quiet and intimate moments, whom or what do you pray to, and what do you pray for? Vanessa Williams: Hmm... it depends on what it is. I pray to God and my ancestors and my guides, and everyone who has been with me along my journey. As far as what I pray for, it depends on what I want or need at that particular moment; whether it’s guidance, whether it's "show me the way," or whether it's protection for one of my children. It depends on what my particular need is at that moment. Allison Kugel: What do you think you are here in this life as Vanessa Williams to learn, and what do you think you are here to teach? Vanessa Williams: I absolutely love to teach, in the literal sense, and I've done it for three years in a row at NYU (New York University). I've taught Master Classes at Syracuse University, where I went for musical theatre. I also teach women's groups. It's teaching strength and to be aware, because you never know when and where something is going to happen for you. Whether that's your talent, whether it's an opportunity… just be open to who comes into your life and what they can bring. Allison Kugel: And you're here to learn? Vanessa Williams: That as women, for sure, we are a community, and to ask for help. Don't be afraid to ask for advice or for help. Look for a mentor. I've learned that there are many people that are willing to be teachers and to help you along in your life, so don't be afraid to ask because there will always be somebody there to offer help. I think I'm here to learn to keep moving ahead. On this earth we have setbacks, struggles and obstacles. You have to be able to say, "What is this teaching me?" so you can move through it and move ahead in your life. Avoiding something or trying to deny it won't get you anywhere.  Allison Kugel: Speaking of giving advice to other women, back in 2011 and 2012 you worked on Tyler Perry's film Temptation with Kim Kardashian while she was going through the separation from her ex-husband, Kris Humphries. The two of you spent some time together during filming. Did she seek your advice about weathering scandal and a media firestorm?
Vanessa Williams: She'd just broken up with Kris [Humphries] and the press was all over the place, so Tyler made it very easy for her to hide from the press on set. Basically, it worked on the set, keeping the press away. Then we flew back to LA together. I just needed to be the sounding board for her at that point. Sometimes you don't need to talk. You just have to let them talk, and you have to listen. She talked about all the stuff that was happening and her fear of being judged, but that it was something she felt she needed to do. My advice to her was that you go through the storm, but the dust will settle, and you'll get an opportunity to see clearly, and it will be a different day; and you'll feel better and you can move on. Allison Kugel: Do you consider yourself a trailblazer for women? Vanessa Williams: I think my history has made me a trailblazer, unknowingly. I've always just been myself and that's how it played itself out. Allison Kugel: What makes you feel most beautiful? Vanessa Williams: The sun and the warmth makes me feel beautiful. Every time I land someplace that's warm, it makes me feel like I'm connected to nature. And that's without hair and makeup and wardrobe, and all that stuff. It's just the breeze, the water, and heat that makes me feel like my most natural self. And then being around children. Whether it's my children who are all grown up… there's a connection that I have with kids. Maybe because both of my parents were elementary school music teachers, but there is a connection that me and my kids have with young kids that I absolutely love. My connection with children makes me feel so alive. Allison Kugel: You recently launched your own clothing line, Vanessa Williams, which is available through HSN. The collection is versatile, imaginative and sexy, yet understated. And I love how you incorporate animal prints and patterns with different looks. Vanessa Williams: Thank you. It's another opportunity to be creative and I've got a great manufacturer, so the quality is fantastic. It's an extension of what I love, which is putting my stamp on things. I love fashion, and I've been fortunate to work on amazing shows, both on television and on Broadway, where I've worked with incredible costume designers and been exposed to fantastic fashion through stylists. And I've settled into what my own personal style is, along with what resonates with other people. When I design, I keep my eighty-year-old mother in mind, and then my children; my girls are from age 19 to 32. Everyone's got their own sensibility, and there's one piece for everyone to enjoy. Allison Kugel: When will you be recording your next album? Vanessa Williams: Now! I just finished recording a children's album, which will be out next spring. And I'm working on a new album for BMG that will be out next year. We're leaning towards mood and tropical music for this next album, and there will be more projects to come. Allison Kugel: Let's circle back to your upcoming show on London's West End, City of Angels. You're a Broadway veteran, but this will be your West End debut! Vanessa Williams: This will be my "junior year abroad" that I never got the chance to do! In college, I was supposed to go to London and then I became famous that September. So, it's my delayed junior year abroad, thirty-six years later (laughs). And it's getting a chance to show my stage talent on another respected stage. My children are not at home, so it's an opportunity to tick another thing off the bucket list. Shop the Vanessa Williams collection at HSN and pre-order tickets to see Vanessa Williams star in City of Angels at the Garrick Theatre in London's West end. Visit VanessaWilliams.com. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Rod Spicer, Mike Ruiz, Gilles Toucas  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Deepak Chopra By Allison Kugel Deepak Chopra has been a mentor of mine from the day of my first interview with him more than a decade ago. I will never forget the day in 2008 when I asked him to explain such existential concepts as the distinction between the brain, mind and soul; the concepts of space and time, and how meditation benefits our physical and mental health. His answers then were clear and precise and without hesitation; on my end it felt like waking up from a dream and setting about on a continuous path of discovery. He and I sat down once again, this time to unpack the pressing issues of isolation, anxiety and depression and the growing epidemic of suicidal ideation and suicide, which has taken sharp incline over the past eighteen years. Deepak Chopra is now part of a team spearheading the Never Alone movement, a grassroots movement that aims to create community-led organizations around the world to help people in emotional distress who need community support. Never Alone is being funded through a GoFundMe campaign that has already surpassed its original goal. In tandem, Deepak Chopra, has released his latest book, Metahuman (Harmony Books/Random House), which delves into the true essence of our nature when we break free of societal constructs and embrace a higher level of consciousness and greater zest for living on this planet. Allison Kugel: The subject matter we are about to discuss is an uncomfortable one, but one that needs to be addressed because we are losing too many people. I looked at some World Health Organization statistics that report there has been a 60% increase in suicides over the past 45 years, with a 30% increase since 2001. My first question for you is simply… why? Deepak Chopra: We are living in a culture that aggrandizes narcissism and the whole idea of a separate self. People are constantly engaged in social media, and in general media as well. All of this leads to a performance anxiety in a sense. Am I relevant if I'm not being noticed? On the one hand, social networks are supposed to increase our connectivity. In one sense they do, because we can communicate more effectively. But it also increases our isolation if we don't get noticed. Young adults, in particular, are at a very delicate stage of their life where they're beginning to wonder about their identity. As young children, we never wonder about identity. We are just happy, without wondering about self-esteem and all those things. As we enter adolescence, identity becomes an issue and we are still forging our identities. Today our identity is all about, "Am I important? Am I relevant?" It's not even about knowing who we are at a fundamental level. Allison Kugel: I remember seeing my son, up until about the age of three, exhibit this pure unadulterated confidence and joy that emanated from his being. I have a video of him at the age of 15 or 16 months, where he's running through a field and cracking himself up for no reason; just happy to be running in the grass. Why do we lose that joy and that feeling of wholeness, of being enough just as we are, as we get older? Deepak Chopra: You are very right in your observation. The poet Rabindranath Tagore is quoted as having said that "every child that's born is proof that God has not given up on human beings (paraphrased)." Children are naturally joyful and loving and have empathy and compassion and playfulness as their innate traits. The rest is the hypnosis of social conditioning. Unfortunately, it gets recycled through every generation and now it's getting worse because of our ability to communicate our self-importance. Self-esteem is natural, in our natural state. We are confusing [self-esteem] with self-image, which is the ego-bound identity. Self-image constantly needs validation or else it feels very fearful. Allison Kugel: I've noticed a pattern in the 21st century where we are being pushed to the brink in so many ways. We have extreme weather patterns, mass shootings, more chronic illness, more narcissism and certainly more anxiety and depression. And we have more people who are medicated than ever before. What is all this pushing us towards? And what is the spiritual reason for it all? Deepak Chopra: A lot of what you are seeing is the mental health of a collective mind, or a collective humanity, that has created a world with all the things you mentioned. We've seen extinction in every other life form, but now we're ready for our own extinction. The last extinction was sixty-five million years ago as a result of a meteorite hitting the earth, when dinosaurs were wiped out. We learned as a result of that extinction. But now if we have our next extinction, it will be as a result of human behavior. If this is not collective insanity… If we don't acknowledge it then we are decreeing our own insanity. We need to understand our personal role in this collective insanity. Suicide and depression are symptoms of our collective conditioned mind. We treat hate to be normal. We treat the psychopathology of our everyday existence as normal. So numb have we become. And so immune have we become to the cruelty that happens every day in the world.  Allison Kugel: What if you're an empath, and internalize everything, and you're in a constant state of feeling the pain of everybody and everything? Deepak Chopra: We can resign ourselves and say the human experiment has failed; that the human species was an interesting idea on behalf of nature's evolutionary impulse, but it didn't work. We can resign ourselves and wait for our collective extinction where we just go to the bar and get a drink, which will numb us even more, and which people are doing with drugs and alcohol and other addictions. This is mostly linked to this massive epidemic of suicide and depression. Or, we can do something about it and hope for the best. What I have discovered through careful observation and as a physician, is that when people support each other in anything, and it doesn't matter what it is, it is healing. When we support each other, the outcome of whatever that condition is that a person is struggling with, it does improve. This is what has led me to the opportunity to create, both, online and real-time communities where people can support each other for a more peaceful, just, sustainable, healthier and joyful existence. Ultimately, this is the purpose of life, to experience our innate joy. That comes automatically through empathy, which leads to compassion, which then leads to the desire to relieve another person’s suffering. Allison Kugel: For all the empaths out there, including myself, the answer is to not just feel the pain of the world, but to take loving action towards solutions where and when you can. Deepak Chopra: Right, because compassion leads to love, and it leads to love-in-action. Love-in-action leads to healing. Love without action is irrelevant. And action without love is also meaningless. This is an opportunity for us to create a self-sustaining ecosystem where people support each other and help each other. Helping each other is the best way to help ourselves. Allison Kugel: You're a part of creating the Never Alone movement to provide support communities around the world, which we hope will prevent suicide and help people feel connected to real support systems. How will the Never Alone platform work, and will it be accessible to people of all socioeconomic backgrounds and geographic locations? Deepak Chopra: Right now, the Never Alone platform will be run by GoFundMe. We are helping create an advisory board for the GoFundMe campaign. Our goal is to create self-sustaining grassroots movements across the world, because even in very impoverished parts of the world, people now have access to wireless technology. In wisdom traditions, a healthy community has three things: people dedicated to serving the community; spiritual practice of reflective self-inquiry and getting together with other people in the community. Today we can do that online, but we can also do that by creating our own localized communities and centers. This is not a Deepak Chopra campaign, or anyone's campaign. It should be a totally grassroots, self-sustaining campaign where we create an ecosystem for helping each other in [times of] distress. Allison Kugel: With the film The Offering that you've recently raised funding for, this is not a documentary, correct? This is a work of fiction that is based on real stories about suicide? Deepak Chopra: The actress Gabriella Wright, her sister was a very accomplished musical artist in Europe who committed suicide at the age of 28 or 29. This is a film for awareness, in which actress Gabriella Wright is playing the role of a mother whose son commits suicide. We hope to use the film as a tool for bringing awareness to this cause, and to the Never Alone movement. When you give facts alone, some people are moved by the facts, like you were moved by the statistics. But by themselves, facts can be very dry. When they are linked to an emotional response, people feel compelled to look at the facts in a different way. We are hoping that The Offering will be a film that will bring some insight to the epidemic of loneliness. The film is only one aspect of this movement. After that, the goal of the Never Alone movement is to encourage other people to produce videos and films, and to share stories to increase awareness and create their own communities both offline and online. Allison Kugel: I have a question that could be construed as controversial, but it's been on my mind. Over the last 15 to 20 years the veil, so to speak, has been thinning in terms of more people becoming aware that our souls are eternal and that there is a spirit dimension to which we go on; the concept that we were alive before we got here and we will be alive in spirit when we leave. Do you think this information can be a double-edged sword in the wrong hands, and that people might then see suicide as a viable option because of this? For example, the thought could be, "I don't want to cease to exist. I just don't want to be here." I would hate for that to be the case… Deepak Chopra: I hesitate to answer that, because I don't really know that that's one of the reasons for the increasing epidemic of suicides. Many people do not have insight into the true nature of their soul. In the past, if you spoke about the soul or the spirit, a lot of people considered themselves scientists and secular, and they would roll their eyes and look away because you're not talking science. Right now, there's a big discussion among scientists about what fundamental reality is. Is fundamental reality physical, or is fundamental reality non- perceptual and in the realm of what you and I would call the soul? Scientists are now struggling with a good physical explanation for what we call "consciousness." There's no biological explanation for consciousness. Right now, as I'm speaking to you, all that's going to your brain is an electrical current. You are experiencing the sound of my voice, and not only that, you are interpreting that into meaning. Where is that happening? Science has no idea. So, there are some cutting-edge scientists now that are addressing this. What we call the physical world is an interpretation of perceptual connectivity in our own consciousness. The only thing that is eternal is what you just referred to as the soul, which is not in space or time. It will take a long time for science to catch up to this idea. In the meantime, we have to deal with everyday reality. And some everyday realities, at this moment, are very depressing and it’s our own collective projection. We need to change it.  Allison Kugel: Somebody who is having suicidal thoughts or feelings, what does it take to bring them back from the brink and to move their energy back into a space of embracing life once again?
Deepak Chopra: It takes a loving, compassionate, caring being to be present for them. And that's all it takes. I think there's no situation that is so desperate that love and compassion and presence and caring can't alleviate it, with any kind of desperate situation. But we now need to create the platform for that. Allison Kugel: Have you, yourself, at any point in your life had a suicidal thought or feeling, and if so, how did you work your way out of it? Or has a loved one of yours ever experienced something like that? Deepak Chopra: I have personally never experienced this kind of extreme ideation. But when I was in active practice as an internist and an endocrinologist and emergency room physician, I saw it all the time, several times a day. And then I looked at my own family; cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles, aunts. And I don't find a single family, including my own, where this type of extreme desperation has not resulted in a suicidal act. From my medical school days, to my internship and residency, I have witnessed these kinds of ideations and this kind of outcome of extreme desperation, which we call suicide. It's never been out of my awareness, not even a single day, since I became a medical student. And I do remember also in my early growing up years, becoming aware of relatives in my extended family who have done that, so it's a daily reminder that we need to do more to alleviate everyone's suffering. Our own personal happiness is dependent on the happiness of others. In fact, all the data shows that the most effective way to be happy is to make someone else happy. The easiest way to make someone happy is to give them attention, which means to listen to them, not advise them, but listen to them. You don't try to change another person. It's hard enough to change yourself when you want to. But if you listen to them and you are there to support them, then they change, especially if you care. Allison Kugel: Let's touch on your new book, Metahuman. Does the book delve into teaching people to tap into the quantum field? Deepak Chopra: The book is about what is fundamental as opposed to what is a social construct. War, terrorism, socio-economic circumstances, injustice, climate change are all because of false constructs. The falsest construct that human beings have created is that we are separate; the subject and object of experience are two different things. Right now, for example, I believe that I am the subject of this experience and you are the object of this experience. You think you are the subject of the experience and I am the object of the experience. This is an artificial divide. Unfortunately, our science is based on that, so we end up using science for diabolical purposes and ultimately risk our extinction. My book is saying that you should wake up from the dream which has now become a nightmare. And the dream is that we are separate beings. We are actually part of a holistic process and when we embrace that wholeness then we are holy, and we are healed. Wholeness, holy, health and healing go together. Everything you mentioned about mindfulness and meditation, these practices give us that experience of wholeness. When we go beyond our skin-encapsulated ego-identities, that is what the book is about. Deepak Chopra's book, Metahuman: Unleashing Your Infinite Potential (Harmony Books/Random House), is available wherever books are sold. Learn more about the Never Alone movement at GoFundMe.com/NeverAlone. Follow Deepak Chopra @DeepakChopra and tune in to his podcasts Infinite Potential and Daily Breath for your regular dose of Deepak, wherever podcasts stream. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Todd MacMillan, Jeremiah Sullivan, Harmony Books/Random Hous  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Rick Ross By Allison Kugel One conversation with rapper Rick Ross will have you questioning the definitions of success, wealth and opportunity; how to identify opportunity, how to achieve success and how to maintain it while keeping your soul and bodily faculties intact. Ross, born William Leonard Roberts II, rose to prominence in 2006 with his breakout single, Hustlin', a word that defines his character and approach towards life. Though Ross doesn't speak like a scholar, his wisdom permeates our conversation. He is an alchemist; aware of his power to transmute base metals to gold. Rick Ross' fans are believers in his use of language, and his unabashed celebration of riches. He's proud to remind people that he created a palatial oasis out of the urban desert that was his early life. Where many others in the Carol City district of Miami where Ross grew up saw few options, Ross saw the opportunity to translate his experiences into music. He came on the scene as hip hop left its golden era behind in favor of corporate commercialism, and then helped to usher in a rap renaissance of which he has become one of the genre's most powerful voices. The way Rick Ross explains it to me, the flash and cash his lifestyle portrays goes deeper than flagrant materialism. It leaves a roadmap for others behind him to follow - from no way out to a yellow brick road of possibilities. Even Ross' palatial Georgia residence can be dubbed rap's incarnation of The White House, with A-listers paying homage to the famous property (once owned by Evander Holyfield) on occasion. With eighty-seven singles under his belt, Rick Ross moves through the music business with the urgency of being on borrowed time. Not since the late Tupac Shakur has an artist been quite so cognizant of, nor vocal about, his own mortality, and for good reason. Witnessing the loss of life has been a constant for Ross since his childhood. In recent years Ross survived a grisly drive-by shooting and multiple life-threatening seizures. He's emerged more prolific than ever with his tenth studio album, Port of Miami 2 and the release of his new book, Hurricanes: A Memoir. From sleeping in his car in the early 2000s while doggedly pursuing the American dream, to holding tremendous clout among the most successful artists of the moment, Port of Miami 2 features guest appearances by Swizz Beatz, Meek Mill, the late Nipsey Hussle, John Legend, Lil Wayne and Drake. The relationship between Rick Ross and Drake goes back nearly a decade, when Ross showed tremendous support for Drake's career after the release of his early work, with the breakout mixtape So Far Gone. The two have been allies and collaborators since. The focus of our conversation was Ross' memoir, Hurricanes, and the rags to riches story he loves to illustrate for his fans. Allison Kugel: You come across as nostalgic in your memoir, Hurricanes. If you could travel through time and bear witness to the making of any classic album, which one would you love to be a part of? Rick Ross: A rap album? That would have to be Paid In Full with Eric B. and Rakim. Rakim was such a supreme lyricist and B. was the epitome of a DJ/dope boy. They were the center of style and fashion with their Gucci suits on the album covers, sitting on the hood of a Mercedes Benz S550. It was the epitome of what rap music really represented. Allison Kugel: Generational wealth or artistic legacy… which means more to you? Rick Ross: Generational wealth, without a doubt. Allison Kugel: You've had some close calls between your health issues and an attempt that was made on your life. What was the greatest lesson or insight gained from those experiences? Rick Ross: Ha! Something just ran across my mind, and I want to say that if it was the end, I would want to make sure I smoke all the roaches down until they're by my fingertips (laughs)! But it boils down to appreciating and enjoying every day. Allison Kugel: Do you believe in destiny, free will, or both? Rick Ross: Destiny, for many different reasons. When there was [sic] twenty shots fired at my Rolls Royce, I had the audacity to go back and get my Cuban link chain. Not only did I go back to get my Cuban link chain, I went back to go get my girlfriend. It had to be destiny. Allison Kugel; It's nice that you went back for your girlfriend but thank God you didn't lose the Cuban link (laughs). Kidding! Rick Ross: (Laughs) Allison Kugel: What is the source of your drive and ambition? Rick Ross: Other than my DNA, it comes from my neighborhood, and being so blatantly aware of the haves and the have nots. I knew I was one of the [have nots]. It may not have been traumatic at all. It could have been something as simple as me not having the Nintendo with the Mike Tyson Punchout game. Allison Kugel: That was my favorite game! You're taking me back… Rick Ross: Mine too. Mike Tyson Punchout and Double Dragon. When you're the one on the block, where your friends have to bring the game and cartridges in a Winn Dixie bag to come spend the night at your crib, you kind of know.  Allison Kugel: Do you pray? And who or what do you pray to, and what do you pray for?
Rick Ross: Daily. I call him The Big Homie because there's only one Big Homie; I don't care what nobody else calls him. I just let Him know I'm appreciative of everything, and I'm really under his command. The second he calls for me or is ready for me, I'm going to open my arms to him. Allison Kugel: What are you here in this life as Rick Ross to learn and to teach? Rick Ross: Just that others like me, who never learned math, that you can still be the CEO, you can still become authors and artists. Nobody ever told me that. I had to learn that on my own. When I was in school, I sat in the back of the class making jokes, trying to cover up the fact that I never learned multiplication or algebra. I want to let youngsters who are in the position I was in, know that they can be in this position I'm in now. My father wasn't there to tell me that, and I never had a big brother. The people I looked at were the ones in the street. I know the advice I always got from them, but I want to teach others that you can become a CEO, a huge success. I'm not only the CEO of one company, but close to a dozen. That's what I want to be able to teach people on a major scale. Allison Kugel: To divert a bit, let's talk about a song from your recent album, Port of Miami 2, Gold Roses featuring Drake. It's a great song. Describe the dynamic between you and Drake, musically and personally. Rick Ross: Drake is a genuine human being, and I think that is what I admire and respect about him so much. The role I've always played with him was Big Homie, and he always played my Lil' Homie. That dynamic has always been as natural as it comes, and that's when we're in the recording booth and when we're outside the recording booth. He's not afraid to show his sensitive side, and that's what makes him the artist he is. Allison Kugel: You've been quoted as saying that you never question God. Even in your darkest moments, you've never asked, "Why?" or questioned Him in any way? Rick Ross: If I have, it was many years ago before I began to understand what life is. Life can be a cruel place; it can be a cold place. But it also can be as beautiful as you make it. I didn't even question Him on the morning I woke up with my closest friend dead in the room next to me. We had just been together three hours earlier, and now three hours later, he's dead and gone (Ross recounts this story in his book, Hurricanes: A Memoir/Hanover Square Press). I never questioned when my other closest homeboy was gunned down in a home invasion in front of his two, three and four-year-old sons. I'm not going to question the Big Homie. Whatever his plans are, that's his plans. However I go out, it's destiny. Allison Kugel: Have you ever stopped to reflect on, and question, the violence that's surrounded you throughout your life? Rick Ross: Growing up where I grew up, I never questioned it because questioning it did nothing for it. Hearing AK 47s going off for sixty seconds at a time, you can cry, you can pray, you can question it, but you better just sit back, shut the fuck up, and wait for the ambulance to come. Year after year of seeing and hearing it and walking to school while passing a dead body, it gets to a point where you don't question it. You got to decide, am I going to survive or am I going to die? Allison Kugel: You discuss your solid financial prowess in your book. What do you teach your children about money? Rick Ross: The disadvantage my children have is that they're my kids, and my entire family is in a different position. They're receiving money from everybody. I could put my kids on an allowance, but my daughters have credit cards. I do explain the importance and the value of building a brand. I don't speak to my daughter about coming up from the mud to the marble and starting with nothing, because that's not her life. She's not in the position me and my sisters were in. Instead, I talk to her about the importance of maintaining our brands and bringing something new to the brand. By the time she was fourteen, my daughter knew how to run a Wingstop (one of Ross' several business interests). If we left her in a Wingstop [restaurant] with two other people, they would be able to run it for a full day. With my haircare line, RICH Haircare (RICH by Rick Ross), I allow her to be in the conference calls and to sit in on the meetings. At the same time, she gets to live and enjoy life much more than I did at her age. You have to take the good with the bad, but I most definitely let them see firsthand what hard work is. Allison Kugel: You're raising your kids in the Holyfield Mansion (Ross' 44,000 square foot Georgian estate, once owned by Evander Holyfield). I would imagine there has to be a sense of entitlement when your kids are growing up in what is, for all intents and purposes, a palace. Rick Ross: It's not something I overthink. As parents, we need to set examples because we have to let our children grow into what and who they are going to be. I really don't put a lot of pressure on my kids, because they're good students and they are very respectful of me and of everyone else around them. I'm allowing them to become young adults, and to decide what college they want to go to, what they want to be, what they want to do, how they want to do it, and where they want to do it. I'm pretty free about that. But it's true. It's not an upbringing I would know about firsthand, and I'm pretty sure I would feel entitled if Eddie Murphy was walking around my dad's home and Coming to America 2 was being filmed at my father's estate. They're filming Coming to America 2 at the estate right now. Allison Kugel: Okay, well that's awesome! Are you in it? Rick Ross: I have a small role and I did my first scene a few days ago. Allison Kugel: I'll have to look out for you when it comes out. Rick Ross: Most definitely. You'll have to look out for Rozay in the movie when it's out (laughs). Allison Kugel: I love how in the back of your book you thanked a jeweler who let you browse his watch collection for hours and ask him a bunch of questions years ago, when he knew you couldn't afford to buy one. Do you think you envisioned your dreams into existence? Rick Ross: Without a doubt. I think that's a part of destiny. I believe that if you believe in something or anticipate something coming to you, you try your best to prepare for it. For example, I'm trying my best now to prepare to be a huge actor one day. Before I finished my book, I wanted to thank Mr. Morgan; that was the name of the jeweler. He was extremely kind and patient with me. For some reason he would always let me, for two hours at a time, look and ask questions about the jewelry. He knew I didn't have money. I probably didn't have money for a damn soda at that time. He'd take the time to describe the different watches to me, and my mind was just blown. I was fascinated by the idea of having jewelry. He would let me stand there for a long time and I never got the opportunity to purchase anything from him. I just wish he knew who I was, and I wish I knew where he was now, because I would personally want to thank him. Allison Kugel: How do you feel about your fans getting to know you on a more intimate level when they read your book? Does that make you nervous or excited? Rick Ross: I would never be nervous at the idea of my fans getting to know me, and I feel like if they really knew who I was, they wouldn't even believe me. The book paints some pictures for you but can never really give you an idea of what the real play was, because I came up in the era of some real things happening. Neil [Martinez-Belkin] did a great job of putting the book together. He spoke to maybe sixty or seventy of my closest friends and family, because talking to me there's only some much conversation I'm going to give you. The shit I've seen, when we talked, it got no realer. When I talked about getting real money it got no realer. That's what made me the businessman I am. Unlike a lot of other artists, I was familiar with money before the music came. Most artists, by the time they get their first advance, they got to go get a car or a home. I already had these things, so by the time I got money in the music business I was ready to invest in other things and do other things. Allison Kugel: At the end of your book, you also pay tribute to the late Nipsey Hussle. Why do you think his life ended the way it did and when it did? Rick Ross: As painful as it is to watch this type of shit online (referring to surveillance video footage of the shooting), that's what I grew up seeing. As painful as it is, I almost became numb to it over the years. I've always been the one that's been the shoulder for others to cry on. Why did it happen? I can't answer that. Was he a special individual? An incredibly special individual! Would I still consider Nipsey Hussle blessed and highly favored? Yes, I would. I've stood in those shoes before, and I was blessed to walk away. But for some reason, if it was to happen to me and that's how the Big Homie upstairs chose for me to go, I'm going to open my arms to him. I don't fear death, personally. I'm sure if Nipsey was here, Nipsey would still love and support his community the same way. Would Nipsey still love flossing in Crenshaw? I believe so. I would still love Miami 305, even if that was the city that took my life. Allison Kugel: What do you hope fans are getting out of reading your book? Rick Ross: I just hope the youngsters that are from where I'm from can see the potential in them in becoming authors, becoming CEOS or whatever they want to become. Do I really think I'm going to make money off this bullshit? Probably not. Do I think it will be successful? Really, anything with my face on it could be successful, but I didn't do it for that. I wrote the book because I'm another youngster from a failing situation that's seeing some success. Ultimately, that's what it's about. Going from being the hunted to becoming the hunter. Hurricanes: A Memoir by Rick Ross with Neil Martinez-Belkin is available on Amazon and wherever books are sold. Port of Miami 2, Ross' 10th studio album, is out now. Follow him on Instagram @RichForever. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photos Courtesy of Bob Metelus. Creative Consultant: Sheldon Wright  Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Debi Mazar By Allison Kugel In the 1990s Debi Mazar's cat-eyed glamour was spotted everywhere, alongside close friend Madonna. Arm-in-arm they strolled red carpets across two continents and partied with a glittery group of social provocateurs. As an actress, Mazar came on the scene and shone brightly in the 1990 iconic mob film, Goodfellas, as Ray Liotta's coke-addled mistress. She then appeared alongside actress Annabella Sciorra in Spike Lee's 1991 interracial romance drama, Jungle Fever and followed that up with two more Spike Lee films, Malcolm X and Girl 6. In 1995 she spiced up the screen as one half of Sugar & Spice alongside Drew Barrymore in Batman Forever. More recent projects included the role of sharp-tongued publicist Shauna on HBO's runaway hit series, Entourage, which aired from 2004-2011. Her characters have always been quick to offer a sarcastic comeback or some bold advice, no effs given. If film and television casts can be compared to ingredients, then Mazar is surely the hot sauce. These days, the mom of two teenage daughters splits her time between New York City and Italy. Landing on another hit series with TV Land's Younger, now going into its seventh season, Mazar takes the reigns once again as irreverent artsy urbanite, Maggie. The show centers around a Gen-X divorcee who poses as a millennial to jumpstart her career in book publishing, only to have worlds collide in parenthood, work and love. When speaking with Debi Mazar, she gives it to me straight, no chaser. A dye in the wool New Yorker with an Avant-Garde spirit, Mazar shares her views on friendship, parenthood, social media and the art of risk taking. Allison Kugel: In your series, Younger, your character Maggie is the catalyst that gives the other characters permission to make bold decisions that they wouldn't ordinarily make. In your own life, who has given you permission to draw outside the lines? Debi Mazar: I surround myself with many friends that do that for me; it's not just one person. Certainly, it starts with my husband. I obviously run things by him. In my life, I've had people I looked up to who were older, or who had sage advice in their soul to offer. Sometimes it could even be my teenage daughters. Their thoughts are generally so pure. My older gay male friends always have sage advice, and my girlfriends, [the late fashion designer] Isabel Toledo being one of them, and Madonna being one of them… ultimately, you know deep in your soul what you should do, and I've always been a risk-taker. Allison Kugel: Are you as bold and irreverent as the characters you've played? Debi Mazar: I think I'm bolder than my current character on Younger, for real! Maggie is a little more Bohemian, and she's [artsy]. I sometimes wish she could be even bolder. I know she's a catalyst for the story. Often, in my life, I'm just like, "Oh please, just fucking do it already!" I think I'm a little bit more the type of person in my own life who will say, "Do what you need to do," as opposed to merely suggesting. There have been times with the character of Liza (played by Sutton Foster), where I wish my character, Maggie, could have offered her that type of direct advice. But we have to tell a story and stretch it out for television.  Allison Kugel: Younger just finished its sixth season, and you're going into your seventh season. It's amazing when you consider how much competition there is for people's attention these days. Why do you think the show has resonated with your audience? Debi Mazar: Our show is about female relationships, for the most part. They're strong women who are bonding together and lifting each other up. In a world that is so crazy, I think that is a big part of the show's appeal. Our show is also filled with humor, it's extremely positive and light. It really is entertainment. The marketing machine that TV Land and Viacom put together, in terms of promoting the show and how they continue to promote the show, has been aggressive and fun. I give them a lot of credit for throwing it out into the stratosphere, especially on a network that was all about reruns. When I first got offered the show and they said it was on TV Land, I said, "Wait, isn't that the rerun channel?" Allison Kugel: That reminds me of what Dave Chappelle said about the first season of Chappelle's Show airing on Comedy Central. He said, "That wasn't exactly the place to be at the time." Sometimes it takes one groundbreaking show. Debi Mazar: Yeah, I was like, "Oh, that's weird. I don't know." (laughs) Of course, I would love being next to I Love Lucy, but they were doing this whole new launch of original programming when Younger started. Having the platform of Hulu, and wherever else you can watch Younger, that's helped enormously to blast it out, and the show has sold well, globally. I hop through airports constantly, and no matter where I go people tell me they watch Younger. Ultimately, our show is about love. Allison Kugel: I would consider you a Gen-Xer, like me. There is a Gen-X versus Millennial component to the show that speaks to a lot of people. Do you long for what was, or are you more of an embrace the times we're in kind of person? Debi Mazar: I'm a mother of teenagers, so I've had to deal with Millennials and Gen-Z, and I find them so refreshing. I am a Gen X type of person in terms of where I live, and liking how things used to be, and yes, I do complain that I liked New York City better when it was less crowded. I liked the city when it was edgier and not so antiseptic and cleaned up. On the flip side, I'm also a modernist and someone that looks to the future. I can't sit around talking about how things used to be, because you have to exist in how things are and make your next decisions based on that. I can easily decide that I’m moving to Italy tomorrow, because I married an Italian and we have a country home in Florence. And I can choose to really go a whole other route, pretend like I'm in the Renaissance, and live in the country and tune out a lot of stuff. But I'm kind of addicted to certain things at this point. I have Instagram and I sit and check my phone for things all the time. Allison Kugel: Darren Star is the brilliant creator of Younger. What would you say are the hallmarks of a Darren Star (Beverly Hills, 90210; Sex and the City; Younger) television series? Debi Mazar: Darren likes to push buttons in terms of sexuality. He likes to push buttons with love triangles, the dynamics of friendships and with fashion. He loves all of that. If you watch any of his shows, there is always an element of people that are living on the edge, having to make decisions; they are dressing up and going out; they are having fun; and they're voracious and hungry for things. His shows are funny, witty, fast-moving and nice to look at. The greatest thing Darren does is write wonderful female characters. I mean, remember when Sex and the City was happening? A lot of people were like, "I'm the Samantha of my group," or "I'm the Carrie." With my character, Maggie, on Younger, I'm happy to play a lesbian. I think it appeals to a huge demographic within the LGBTQ (at this point Mazar laments that she may be leaving out some letters) community. It's relevant.  Allison Kugel: Darren Star recently claimed there is a statistic showing that women are often put in positions of power during extreme corporate shake ups, placing them on what he referred to as "the edge of a cliff," and making them more vulnerable to failure in their respective positions. In Younger, Hilary Duff's character, Kelsey, experiences this when she is put in charge of Millennial Publishing during a shake up in the company. Do you think the audience is ultimately looking to be entertained by her failure, or inspired by her success? Debi Mazar: I think the audience is watching to see what happens. We all live on the edge of not knowing whether we're going to be a failure or a success, and failure and success is something that is measured by ego. It could be measured in many different ways. I don’t know if that is a proven statistic, but I happen to think that women are stronger than men in many ways. Women turn shit around all the time. There are a lot of success stories in Corporate America of how women have turned things around. So, I don't really know where that statistic comes from and I don't think it's a male or female thing, necessarily. Half of it is luck and timing, anyway. Allison Kugel: Do you think someone can become extremely successful playing by the rules, or do you think that rules must be broken while chasing a dream? Debi Mazar: A rebel has to break rules. You have to take chances, and you have to fall on your face before you get back up and know that you made a mistake, and you can try to do it differently. I think you have to break the rules to a degree… in a smart way. Allison Kugel: Who in your life has made you most proud to have been born a woman? Debi Mazar: It's interesting, because I wanted to have a son, but I got daughters. I'm proud that they ended up being girls, because they're magnificent. I look at Malala [Yousafzai] paving the way. She was tortured; being a woman representing a society and getting shot in the head, and then going out there and being an activist. There's the Gloria Steinems of the world, and a billion other women of the world. Had they been born men… I just think that gender isn’t necessarily the answer. The gender discussion now is so big that sometimes people aren't born women and they choose to become them. And, hey, that's a beautiful thing too. Allison Kugel: Why do you think ageism is so prevalent in American culture, specifically? Debi Mazar: Oh God! Well I think it's not just America, unfortunately. Allison Kugel: Since you live in Italy for part of the year, would you say it is similar or different in that respect? Debi Mazar: I feel young for my age, to a degree, but my body doesn't always feel so young because I'm not, and it's just how it is. Throughout history, men were always the presidents in America. We still haven't had an American president that's a female. When I'm in Europe, people appreciate people, whether they have leathery skin or not. It's about character and their souls and their mind. I do feel appreciated in America, because I think it's about the frame of mind of the person who might feel the ageism. I might not be able to go out and get a job that a twenty-year old is getting, but I don't try to do that. In fact, when I was in my late twenties and early thirties, I was chasing after the roles of grandmothers on sitcoms. I don’t care about the number. As an actor, we all have to be different shapes, sizes, colors and have imperfections. That’s what makes us look interesting. Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts on Younger's lead character Liza (played by Sutton Foster) relaunching her career in publishing by lying about her age? The series starts off with her pretending to be twenty-six, although she is a forty-year-old divorcee with a teenage daughter. Debi Mazar: When the series starts off, her character was damaged. She was a divorcee suffering from a broken heart, a broken family, living in the suburbs, truly devoting herself to her child, which we all do. Suddenly she is single and going, "Oh my God, my daughter is moving out and going to college. What the hell am I going to do?" When she comes to my apartment, I am there to save her and wrap her up in my arms and be a friend first. I tell her, "I love you, you're great, you're beautiful." When all of these [job] interviews are not working out, I suggest she have some fun and change it up. When I first started my career, I didn't have a lot of acting credits and I fudged a little bit on my resume to make it look better than it was, because I wanted to get some action. I don't think there's anything wrong with hustling, embellishing and trying to convince people that you can do the job.  Allison Kugel: Speaking of this generation leading the way, what's one piece of technology that you can't live without, personally and professionally?
Debi Mazar: Instagram, hands down! I'm able to post a still-life image that I find beautiful, or I’m able to show something that I shoot a picture of, that's funny and makes people laugh. I'm able to share a photograph of a throwback from a moment in my life. It's a reflection of my sense of style, my sense of photography, my sense of depth of field, color and comedy. To me, Instagram is really that and I keep my feed positive. On the flip side of it, when people come after me for my anti-Trump stuff or political stuff, I just block certain people. I don't want to read into it and fall down that rabbit hole. I love WhatsApp because you can talk to anybody all over the world, and I also love how in Europe everyone walks down the street voice messaging into their phone's mic, instead of texting. That's my new favorite thing to do. Allison Kugel: Towards the end of season six of Younger, your character Maggie is having a steamy fling with actress Nicole Ari Parker, who guest stars on the show. What was that like? Debi Mazar: You know, Nicole Ari Parker did the two episodes of our show and we never closed out the fact that we're having this little affair. Then I date a guy after her. It shows that Maggie's hot to trot, and she's on the market Allison Kugel: Your character is very fluid, sexually? Debi Mazar: Actually, she's not fluid, but she is just seduced by a single moment with a man in that one episode. So, she's not fluid. But if Darren [Star] decides I'm fluid in season seven, then I guess I will be (laughs). Allison Kugel: (Laughs) Debi Mazar: But he decided, at least in season six, that I wasn't, and I'm fine with that. If I have to, I'd much rather make out with girls than make out with guys, because I’m married, and I only want to kiss my husband. Allison Kugel: I get that. Debi Mazar: I mean, if I have to it's okay, it's part of my job, but it's much easier for me to go on set and be like, "Look, we got this. Let's make this fun." Sometimes you get these actresses who get a little bit nervous. I just make them feel calm and loved and feel easy about doing the scene with me. Nicole [Ari Parker] and I had moments where we'd be on the street ready to make out for a scene, and I taught her how to kiss me for the cameras. We didn’t have to put tongues down, we just put our lips together and smash our faces together like they did in the 1920's movies. It doesn’t have to be this groping, weird thing. Actors can make it look good if they know what they're doing. It's really about the suggestion of sensuality. Allison Kugel: You've had a group of eclectic and fabulous friends over the years. What kinds of people do you typically gravitate towards in your own life? Debi Mazar: I'm that person that supports all people. I love fucked up people; I love straight shooters; I love people that are very by the book. I just see beauty in all kinds of people. When you let go of the norms and you allow people to be who they are, you find beauty and strength in them. Younger airs on TV Land on Wednesdays at 10/9c. Catch up on Seasons 1-6 on TV Land On Demand or on Hulu and PlayStation Vue. Follow Debi Mazar on Instagram @debimazar. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photos courtesy of TV Land. Transcription and Typesetting: Carolyn Strum. 
Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Byron Mann and Tzi Ma
By Allison Kugel
There's something about an action-packed storyline with science fiction flare and brilliantly executed martial arts work that never fails to capture an audiences' imagination. The new Netflix series, Wu Assassins, delivers on all fronts and ushers in a true renaissance for martial arts as the centerpiece of a television show. Born from the legacy of the late Wing Chun, Kung Fu master turned movie star, Bruce Lee, Hollywood has been capitalizing on this phenomenon for five decades and counting. After Lee introduced the west to martial arts as entertainment, much of the culture was broken up and pilfered in bits and pieces, both, prior to and after Lee's untimely death in 1973. As with the appropriation of any culture, the originators lose some ownership, while beneficiaries make great gains financially, physically, and even spiritually. On the flipside, this cross pollination of cultural traditions, has paid humanity large dividends in the form of intercultural and interracial familiarity, greater tolerance for different cultures and a stronger sense of globalism around the world. In many ways, the global melting pot effect has been worth its weight in gold. In a new era where artists are gaining more autonomy and creative freedom, shows like Dear White People, Black-ish, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and now Wu Assassins are allowing those that produce such content to spread the wealth while taking back power and ownership of their own cultures, and directing the narratives they want the world to see. I had the pleasure of sitting down with two of the stars of Wu Assassins, Byron Mann and Tzi Ma, both born in Hong Kong, and both gifted actors and martial artists. Throughout our conversation, we discussed how Netflix's most action-packed new series came together. Allison Kugel: What do you guys see as the connection between the martial arts and Hollywood? Tzi Ma: Martial arts and Hollywood have a long history. Because the martial arts are so fascinating and so spectacular, Hollywood has always taken an interest in martial arts. It's just that they couldn't always re-produce the kind of martial arts that I believe Hong Kong cinema has presented to the world. Once they figured out how to do that, they really continue to try to adopt it. I think the fight sequences in American cinema and television, prior to the introduction of Hong Kong martial arts, I don't want to say it's not good, but it wasn't as spectacular as what Hong Kong Cinema had to offer. Byron Mann - I call it the Bruce Lee Effect, which was in the late 1960s and 1970s. I think Bruce Lee was probably one of the main catalysts in the last sixty years to bring Chinese culture and martial arts to the forefront of Hollywood in a big way. We're still feeling the effect of Bruce Lee, today. If you're an Asian male actor, chances are you will be cast, or they will ask to see if you can do some kind of martial arts in your role. I've certainly experienced that. I’m sure Tzi has experienced that as well. 
Allison Kugel – What are your feelings about that? Do you feel honored by that legacy, or do you feel typecast by it?
Byron Mann: I have dual feelings about it. When I first started out in my career, all the roles were martial arts roles. Suddenly, I was the guy that does martial arts. He could be a lawyer, but he still did martial arts. He could be a doctor, and suddenly he is doing martial arts. At first, I didn't mind because I thought it was fun. Then I got to a point where I thought, "Come on guys," and I had to push back on it and say, There is no reason why this [character] should be doing martial arts. Now I'm reaching a third stage, where I am studying martial arts in my own life and appreciating that it came from thousands of years ago in China. In learning Chinese martial arts, I'm actually learning about my own culture. Tzi Ma: My journey is kind of inverted from Byron's. I began studying martial arts when I was ten years old. I had stopped studying it because I wanted to focus on acting. I felt that if I was going to be a martial artist then I'm should be a martial artist, and If I'm going to be an actor then I'm should pursue acting as opposed to pursuing a career where I'm going to fight. So, I avoided it like the plague, particularly when martial artists at one time in Hollywood were mainly villains. For a long time, the way scripts were written, the hero was always white, and the victim was always an Asian woman. I made three rules for myself early on in my career. One: if you want me to be the bad guy, then the heroes must be Asian or Asian Americans; Two: there's no Asian or Asian-American woman being victimized; and Three: there's a balance of good and evil distributed evenly by race. Allison Kugel: When did you see the tide turning in your favor? Tzi Ma: When I saw the movie Rapid Fire, in which Brandon Lee was the hero, I felt that finally we had an opportunity for the Asian hero to come in and save the day, and where all the victims were organized crime figures. And there was no Asian or Asian American woman victimized. A lot of times the scenario back in the day was that the Asian woman was somehow sexually or physically violated and then you have the white hero who comes in and saves the day, and she goes to bed with him. I can't buy that scenario and it's offensive to me. Allison Kugel: Why do you think Netflix has decided to take a chance on the martial arts/sci-fi genre at this time, with Wu Assassins? Tzi Ma: Action/Adventure is very easy to sell because there is no explanation necessary; a fight is a fight and a car chase is a car chase. It's easy for the audience. The martial arts of late have experienced some recent changes, stylistically. I think that the fights are a lot more realistic given all the popularity with MMA and with UFC. All those things have re-sparked an interest in the martial arts genre. Netflix, at this point, their subscription base is saturated in the United States and they need to expand globally. I think this genre is a good opportunity for them to use as a vehicle to introduce the world audience to Netflix. Byron Mann: I had a conversation with Chris Regina, an executive at Netflix who was instrumental in getting our series made, and he said that prior to Wu Assassins there hadn't been any shows on Netflix that predominantly featured martial arts. And it's true that action is the easiest genre to sell around the world. John Wirth, our showrunner, wanted to create more than just a martial arts show. He wanted to create a show that represents Asian-Americans, in general, and a show about family. It's these three things all mixed into one. 
Allison Kugel: There's a spiritual aspect to the show because you have the five elements of earth represented, and Byron, your character's superpower is fire. Can you speak to the spiritual and moral aspects of the show and how these five elements come into play?
Byron Mann: It was a good entry point into this world that the show brings you into. The five elements are prominently featured in Chinese mythology. And in terms of the morality and spirituality, my character, Uncle Six, his morality started and ended with his adopted son, Kai Jin, who is played by Iko Uwais. His son was his morality. His son was what caused him to go from the dark to the light. And he didn't quite want to. I think his love for his son caught him by surprise. Tzi Ma: John Wirth is really a special individual and Byron and I know that because we also experienced it with him in Hell on Wheels. Here is an individual who really pays attention to what your point of view is, because he doesn't look at us from his point of view. He is trying to look at the world through our point of view; through our eyes. The five elements are really important in Chinese culture. Chinese medicine is based on these five elements. John hired Asian American writers in the writer’s room. The show goes a lot deeper than just martial arts as Byron pointed out. Not only do you have the sci-fi Supernatural aspect, but you also have the balance of this kind of reality about the people who make their living in San Francisco's Chinatown. Eventually or subconsciously the audience is going to be able to absorb some of these things without being hit over the head with a representation of Asian-Americans within a television series. Allison Kugel: Let's talk about the fight scenes. How much of it is you doing the actual fighting, how is it all choreographed and what type of martial arts are you using? Byron Mann: The form of martial arts that was predominantly featured in Wu Assasins is called Silat; an Indonesian martial art. It has a lot of grappling and the moves are fast, less flowery, and more straight-forward. Iko Uwais brought his team of choreographers from Indonesia to choreograph the fights. They worked in conjunction with two very good fight choreographers and stunt coordinators, Dan Rizzuto and Kimani Ray Smith. We had rehearsal times, and they varied depending on the schedule. Sometimes we had a week to rehearse the scene, sometimes we had two days, and sometimes we did it on the day that we rehearsed it. Allison Kugel: Are they shot as one continuous sequence or are you stopping a lot? Byron Mann: Generally, action is shot in parts. It's boom boom boom and cut; then boom boom boom and cut. They do this so they can feature some close-ups and inserts. Secondly, not a lot of people can do continuous action well. You really need someone with very strong martial arts skills who can do those fight sequences continually for minutes at a time. Interestingly, in episode four, when Uncle Six fights with Kai Jin, it's a big moment in the series where we go head-to-head, father and son. So for that particular scene, I lobbied that they show us fighting in a continuous sequence and that there would be no cuts. If you look at the episode four, you will see it. For that scene, I wanted the audience to know that we were not cheating them and not cutting things out. Tzi Ma: You also have a cast who are really good at what they do, and Byron is no stranger to martial arts. You also have Lewis Tan who is a brilliant martial artist and of amazing pedigree; his father Philip Tan is an action director and stuntman. Then you have JuJu Chan who represented Hong Kong is Taekwondo in the Olympics and Katheryn Winnick, who is a taekwondo martial artist and black belt. So, you have a core group of people who really live up to the demands [of this show] and who can bring the goods. The fight sequences on our show, I would dare to say, are the best fights on TV today. Allison Kugel: Both of you are originally from Hong Kong. What are your thoughts on how we live in the West in terms of things like health and wellness, and the way we live our lives in general? Byron Mann: The place with the greatest longevity in the world is Hong Kong. My take on it is that when you get older in life in Hong Kong, people there have a general tradition where every Sunday you get together with your family for lunch, or dim sum, or for dinner. I’ve lived in China, in Canada and in the United States. You see less of that happening in other places. In Hong Kong, as people get older they are surrounded by their family, their children, their grandchildren and their friends any day of the week. It keeps them going emotionally. In Hong Kong, no one buys or eats processed food. Everybody goes down to the marketplace and buys fresh fish, chicken, beef, fruits and vegetables. That leads to longevity. You see a lot less of that in the west. Tzi Ma: I did not grow up in Hong Kong. I was born in Hong Kong, but I was brought up in New York City. So, my experience is similar to yours, but I'm learning from Byron. Maybe I should move back to Hong Kong since it has such benefits!
Allison Kugel: What do you hope audiences will gain from watching Wu Assassins?
Byron Mann: Usually the audience's reaction catches me by surprise. There is a scene in episode seven where Uncle Six (played by Mann) and Kai Jin (played by Iko Uwais) are eating in a very rural neighborhood and there's a big interaction with a waitress who has racist views. In that scene, I give her a long speech about the history of Chinese people in America, and how they were discriminated against systematically. When I read the scene I just thought, "People are going to be so bored with this because it's like a history lesson. Who wants to see that in an entertainment show?" I just did the scene to the best of my ability and left it at that. Since the show has come out, people have gravitated towards that scene, and not just Asian people; all types of people have mentioned that scene to me over and over again. That totally caught me by surprise. In that respect, I hope the show can galvanize good, positive conversations that will help this country, or help the world today. We need more of these positive energies to unite people, not to divide people. Tzi Ma: Byron really hit the nail on the head. Any show that allows the world audience to at least have an opportunity to correct the perception of who we really are is important. I think Wu Assassins offers that without giving you a lecture about it. Martial arts and supernatural are very popular genres in entertainment, so for me it is like a delivery system to [introduce who we are] to the world. What we try to deliver is something for the world audience to understand who we are as Asians and as Asian-Americans; as a community and as a people. Photos courtesy of Netflix; Transcription and Typesetting: Carolyn Strum. The first season of Wu Assassins is now streaming on Netflix. Follow Byron Mann on Twitter @ByronMann and on Instagram at @ByronMann1. Follow Tzi Ma on Facebook @Official.TziMa and on Instagram @TziMa8. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. 
Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Mariel Hemingway and Amy Smart
By Allison Kugel
We live in a time when mobile technology and Wi-Fi, Nikes and Christian Louboutins, video games, and a fast-paced urban lifestyle are often prized above the simpler things in life. But what if making a beeline back to our earthy origins could be the answer to more happiness and balance; and better health and vitality? According to studies conducted on the benefits of making direct contact with the earth through the bottoms of our bare feet, a practice called "Earthing," our bodies become grounded, similarly to the way we ground cable wires before installing them in our homes. Grounding our bodies by walking barefoot directly on the earth's natural surface (sidewalks, backyard decks and asphalt don't count) has been shown to improve mood and sleep patterns, clear free radicals from the body, infuse us with antioxidants and reduce overall inflammation. Earthing helps prevent free radicals from attacking and damaging our bodies' healthy tissues, thereby helping us to heal. In 2005, electrical engineer and electrostatic discharge expert Roger Applewhite published a study in the journal, European Biology and Bioelectromagnetics, that confirmed a significant fact: when the body is grounded, electrons move from earth into the body and vice versa. “This effect is sufficient to maintain the body at the same negative-charge electrical potential as the earth.” In other words, for our bodies to thrive at their greatest potential, they require a direct connection with the earth on a daily basis. After having an opportunity to screen a documentary film titled, The Earthing Movie, directed and produced by Sundance Award-Winning filmmakers Josh and Rebecca Tickell, I began my own "earthing" journey. Though I am still a newbie at this practice, I now carve out time to walk or stand barefoot on grass, soil or sand (any natural earth surface) at least once a day for fifteen minutes or longer to ground my body. I plant my feet firmly on the earth's surface as if it is my own personal charging station, and it feels amazing! I recently had the opportunity to sit down with actresses Mariel Hemingway and Amy Smart about their decision to take part in The Earthing Movie, and to learn more about their journeys with the daily practice of earthing, and the positive impact it has had on both of their lives. Allison Kugel: What were the circumstances in each of your lives when you first heard about the practice of earthing? Mariel Hemingway: I'd been [earthing] for a long time, not realizing I was doing it. Ten years ago, I met my life partner, Bobby, and he was always taking his shoes off when we were hiking. We eventually wrote a book together, called Running with Nature (Changing Lives Press). When I think about my history, I can remember times that I was anxious, and when I would go outside and take my shoes off near a river or on a trail, I was actually earthing and grounding myself. I just didn't know what I was doing at the time. Once upon a time, kids were barefoot all the time. That was how we grew up in the seventies. Nobody wore shoes where I come from (Hemingway was raised in Idaho). Amy Smart: For me, I had struggled with vertigo and feeling kind of "out of it," and ungrounded. I realized that I had a sensitivity to EMFs (Electro-Magnetic Fields). I was mostly feeling it from my cell phone. I was also sensing it from my security system that I had installed in my house. I started doing research and one of the solutions was earthing or getting grounded. I started practicing it; putting my bare feet in the ground, and my body started to feel more balanced. 
Allison Kugel: As I watched this documentary that you're both in, The Earthing Movie, which really spoke to me by the way, I was lamenting the fact that I live in a community where they're always dropping all kinds of chemicals on the grass. It makes you a little paranoid to walk in the grass barefoot.
Mariel Hemingway: I completely understand, and that's a big issue. We have a dog park here in Idaho where we spend our summers, and there's a designated dog park here that doesn't use any chemicals. It's amazing that I can walk barefoot out there. Earlier today, I took a hike up some pretty hardcore hills, and I did the entire uphill part barefoot. When I'm in L.A. or on the road, I want to ground my body, but I don't want to take in all those chemicals through my feet. There is grounding therapy, where you can sleep on grounding mats and things like that. But, of course, the outdoor practice of earthing to ground your body is much more effective in my opinion. It's the real deal, and it's profound. Amy Smart: If you are living in a place that has all these pesticides and herbicides, maybe you can dig up a 3x3 foot section of ground and let that area be clean ground that you can stand on barefoot to recharge your body. Allison Kugel: I had this big majestic tree in my backyard in Florida, and people thought I was crazy because every day I would go outside and hug my tree. To me, that is also a form of earthing. The tree is rooted in the earth and you're wrapping yourself around the tree. When I would hug this tree, I could feel the life force inside the tree. I could feel the tree kind of swelling with appreciation and love. I could also feel myself becoming more centered. Mariel Hemingway: Yes, one hundred percent! That is exactly what I used to do. People used to think I was completely nuts. Allison Kugel: Mariel and I are both tree huggers! When you remember that everything on this planet is connected, it all makes sense. Mariel Hemingway: And trees are powerful. I think trees are alive. There is no question that they are. They stick around far longer than we do. It goes far beyond our current awareness. Amy Smart: Aside from health benefits, I think it takes you back to the joy and simplicity of childhood. That's where kids are the happiest. Climbing trees, running barefoot in the grass, or just barefoot running around on the beach; anywhere in nature with their feet on the ground and playing. That's what I do almost every morning. We'll all walk outside and do some earthing. First thing in the morning, we have a tall glass of water and we all go outside and just put our feet on the ground for a few minutes. Allison Kugel: I liken earthing to plugging your cell phone into its charger. The earth's surface is our natural charging station. The man who discovered the scientific health benefits of grounding our bodies through the practice of earthing, his name is Clint Ober. Mariel Hemingway: An amazing man! Amy Smart: Clint recommends earthing for at least fifteen minutes a day, I believe, according to the studies that were done for treating inflammation. But even a few minutes a day is better than nothing. Allison Kugel: It's remarkable to me that Clint originally discovered that humans needed grounding by being a cable television wire installer and learning how to ground wires. Mariel Hemingway: We are made up of electricity. That's why when you're a little kid and you rub yourself on the carpet and then you touch your friend, you can shock them. We have three thousand pores under our feet, and we absorb the energy, or the electricity, from the earth. The frequency of the earth goes into our body and those electrons are released. Now, when you wear rubber soled shoes and you're not ever getting grounded, there is no way for those electrons that build up in the body to release themselves. There is supposed to be a constant flow of energy. When you can release the buildup of electrons, then your body releases the inflammation. Inflammation is a result of the body not being able to release all those different frequencies; all that electricity. Amy Smart: And, like with anything, it's an accumulation over time. Because we are electrical beings, we really respond to any kind of electrical stimulus. And because the frequency of the earth is exactly where our bodies need to be, it makes complete sense, putting our bare feet on the earth and letting that magnetic field restructure our body the way it's supposed to be lined up. 
Allison Kugel: One thing in the film I found so interesting was that the rise in popularity of rubber soled shoes keeps us from properly grounding ourselves on the earth. Here I am walking around in my sneakers all day, thinking it's great for my feet and posture, which in some ways it is, but not for grounding my body.
Mariel Hemingway: In the film, Clint Ober talks about the fact that prior to P.F. Flyers (an early rubber soled sneaker, made popular in the 1960s), we were probably like animals and grounded most of the time. We either had leather soled shoes or moccasins. When we didn't have rubber at the bottom of our feet we were connected. In our current technical and very modern world, it's why sometimes being able to use a grounding mat to help eliminate some electric and magnetic fields is necessary. There are ways to kind of trick yourself into being in a natural state when you can't be literally connected to nature. Amy Smart: The invention of synthetic rubber and plastics in shoes have taken us away from just being on the earth, sleeping on the earth, and using the earth to heal our bodies. One hundred years ago we'd have been in much more contact with the earth on a daily basis. Even going back to the soil we had before and all this fertilization and industrialization has depleted it; I equate that to our bodies becoming depleted because we've lost our connection with the magnetic field and the energy of the earth. Allison Kugel: What are some other benefits that you've personally both noticed with your body, mind and spirit from regularly grounding yourselves? Mariel Hemingway: I sleep unbelievably well. My mind doesn't race at night anymore. I have a tremendous amount of energy. My mood is never poor. If I feel anxious, if I go sit outside or I just sit on the grass for a bit, it pulls it out of me. We come from the earth. The more we connect back to it, the better we will be. We live in a world where every day we're pulled further and further away from that connection. My mission is to make people realize how important it is to reach back towards nature. To see the benefits of what's natural, and what's free. We think that we are not part of nature, but we are. Amy Smart: As far as symptom improvement, I definitely feel more grounded. I feel more balanced. I feel more clarity. There is a sense of calmness that I feel when I do my earthing, and it lasts throughout the day. Allison Kugel: Mariel, you are a lot like me in that you have to be continually cognizant of the energy that surrounds you in order to stay balanced. Of course, with the Hemingway family background, mental health is always something you have had to be aware of. In my book (Journaling Fame/Mill City Press), which talks about healing from an anxiety disorder, I mention that I am always having to monitor the energy that surrounds me, just out of survival. Mariel Hemingway: You have to! People will say to me, "Oh, it must be so hard," and I'm like, "No, it's just who I am." I know what I come from. I know that I can be a depressed person if I don't watch how I live my life. So, I watch what I eat, what I drink. I don't drink alcohol. I watch what I do because I know where I come from. And I know what my propensity for sadness is. Like you, I know that my environment has to be specific. I don't think of it as a problem. I just think of it as my life path. Amy Smart: For my part, you hear about so many people in corporate America that sort of burn out and they then go and live on an organic farm. Or they leave the technology world and they have to get back to a simple, living-off-the-land kind of place where they can begin to thrive again. 
Allison Kugel: Mariel, I would imagine that at one point in your life, you might've had a fear that you would be susceptible to committing suicide, because of the Hemingway family legacy with substance abuse, depression and suicide. Do you still carry that fear?
Mariel Hemingway: I one hundred percent did carry that fear. That used to be a big fear of mine, for many years, well into my early forties. After meeting Bobby (Hemingway's life partner) and getting on this path of really understanding the body from a deep level, and making all those connections; food, water, earthing, meditation and plugging them all together, I am truly a happy person and I do not fear mental illness or suicide anymore. Allison Kugel: Amy, what is your take on keeping yourself balanced in body, mind and spirit? Amy Smart: Wellness doesn't come from just one specific change. For me, it's a bunch of small changes that add up. But I absolutely believe that earthing is critical and crucial for well-being and for balance within my mind and body. When you bring your kids outside, even if they were in a crappy mood, the minute they are outside running around barefoot, their mood is just uplifted and they're happier and more playful. Kids are the perfect experiment to see their mood shift the minute they are outside barefoot. We can learn a lot from them in that way. Allison Kugel: Wouldn't it be interesting if there would come a time where, just like we have dog parks, where there could be designated earthing parks where people can reconnect with nature and ground their bodies by walking barefoot? Mariel Hemingway: Actually, Clint [Ober] and I are working on that very thing. There are places in Europe, this is how behind we are in America, that have that. They have barefoot walks and barefoot parks. It makes so much sense. We are working on trying to make deals with some parks to make barefoot parks. Amy Smart: There are already some parks that say they are child-friendly or earth-friendly. I think if we could just make more of those and prioritize that, because we don't want our kids or our dogs, or us, running around on land that is full of chemicals. That's why it is so amazing to go into different cities that understand that we need to rip up the concrete and create more healthy green spaces. Allison Kugel: Will The Earthing Movie make its way to Netflix? Mariel Hemingway: We want the film to be free for everybody. I believe soon there will be places where you can have events and where the movie will be shown. But it will be somewhere online where everybody can get it for free. I would love for Netflix to have it on their docket. The topic of earthing is super interesting, and it's been scientifically proven. It's not just "woo woo." And trust me, I've done a lot of "woo woo" stuff! Allison Kugel: (Laughs) I brought up Netflix because I've noticed for myself, and from talking to so many other people, that Netflix has been bringing some incredible information about health and wellness to the masses through documentaries. Mariel Hemingway: It's true. We used to just give our power away to the man in the white coat. We didn't question it and we just did what he said. That time has come and gone, and it will never turn back. Medical schools are going to have to get on board with training people about preventative medicine. We are some of the best in the world when it comes to emergency medical care. But when it comes to preventative health care, we're terrible. Allison Kugel: I think on some level doctors are afraid that if you come to them with a problem, and they say to you, "Go walk in the grass, eat a plant-based diet and meditate," you're going be like, "Well, what do I need you for?" I think that's a genuine fear doctors have. Amy Smart: The medical schools are in the business of illness, not the business of wellness, and they are taught a certain protocol on how to treat someone. In a lot of cases, it's lifesaving and it helps. In some cases, it masks the illness and it doesn't really deal with the root cause. The term, "alternative medicines," like Ayurveda or the Chinese medicine that are not the typical western medicines, have been working profoundly for centuries. I think the right question to ask is, "How can we incorporate both modalities, or multiple modalities, to see how we can treat somebody in a holistic way, versus one way or another?" Allison Kugel: When we think of the word "grounding," a lot of times we look at it figuratively. But the practice of earthing is quite literally, electrically, grounding yourself. Amy Smart: Yes. For me, personally, it was learning that I wasn't going to be on my cell phone as often. It was practicing going on the grass every day or at the beach, putting my feet barefoot in the ground. I was turning off my WIFI at night. It's been a combination of things that really helped me, literally, ground myself. Because we are electrical beings, we really respond to any kind of electrical stimulus. And because the frequency of the earth is where our bodies need to be, it makes complete sense, putting our bare feet on the earth and letting that magnetic field restructure our body the way it's supposed to be lined up. Mariel Hemingway: It's also spiritually grounding. I think our world wants us to be wrapped up in whatever narrative it is pushing on us. Grounding yourself creates a sense of, "Oh, I'm really here." It creates a sense of presence. Allison Kugel: Why should people watch and share The Earthing Movie? Mariel Hemingway: Number one, because it's available right now to everyone for free. Number two, we all have parents. Whether our parents are old or whether they are middle-aged they are likely dealing with some form of inflammation and chronic illness. Everybody has somebody they care about who needs this information. Right now, we are a country, we are a world, that is inundated with inflammatory diseases from cancer and heart disease to arthritis and diabetes, to name a few… Amy Smart: People value things when they are in a place of discomfort. If your life's fine, you're not going to really want to make any changes and you may not be open to new information. But the minute you feel unwell, and you're uncomfortable, that's when you search out something to make you feel better. We are now living in a time where so many people are unwell on so many different levels. Earthing is a simple and critical way to help yourself to feel well. Making direct contact with the earth with your bare feet is free, and it's something everyone should know about. It's a really important component of our wellness. Visit EarthingMovie.com to learn about the earthing movement and to find out how you can host a screening of The Earthing Movie, starring Deepak Chopra, Amy Smart, Mariel Hemingway, "Earthing" pioneer Clint Ober; and Sundance Award-Winning filmmakers, Josh and Rebecca Tickell. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Big Picture Ranch Productions, Josh and Rebecca Tickell, Simon Balderas, Jose Babcock, Kristyna Hernandez. Transcription and Typesetting: Carolyn Strum.  By Allison Kugel Raven-Symone's alter ego, Raven Baxter, has been a staple on The Disney Channel since the child actor turned Hollywood renaissance woman debuted her famous character on the hit show, That's So Raven, in 2003. Back then, Symone's alter-ego played a teenager who could see into the future, and that extra-sensory ability often landed her in some comical hot water. It's anyone's guess if a three-year-old Raven-Symone, who came to national attention as precocious Olivia on The Cosby Show, could have predicted this kind of career longevity? The character of Raven Baxter was given new life with Symone's second Disney show, Raven's Home, in which her character Raven Baxter is a woman with two kids, navigating all that comes with single motherhood and forging her own path as a fledgling fashion designer. Now, going into its third season, Raven's Home will be tackling some interesting twists and turns as the kids start their own music group, Raven Baxter continues with the launch of her fashion line and roommate and co-parenting partner, Chelsea, finds her niche as a life coach. Aside from plenty of interesting guest stars in the third season of the show, Raven-Symoné makes her Raven's Home directorial debut this season. Allison Kugel: At the end of season two of Raven's Home your character launches a career as a fashion designer. How does that storyline pick up in season three? Raven-Symone: Raven Baxter has always been a fashion designer since she was in high school (going back to the series, "That's So Raven"), and she had always been designing her [own] clothes. She did not feel that with her kids she could accomplish a line, and so now she decided to really sit down and make it about her. But as season three continues, the kids' stories really shine, and Raven Baxter's line is not as much of a main component. Allison Kugel: In what way do the kids' characters further develop? Raven-Symone: The kids start a music group. They go into a type of judging competition for that. We start learning more about Nia (played by Navia Ziraili Robinson) and her woman-empowering mission, and how she feels as a teenager. We start to understand Booker (played by Issac Ryan Brown) and see him growing up in school and at home. And we start diving into parenting issues with stepfathers with the mothers and how that whole dynamic comes into play in such a new [un]conventional family. Allison Kugel: Did the success of That's So Raven give you the cache to have a hand in developing the direction of Raven's Home? Raven-Symone: I had a lot of input from creative to writing to visual. It's also important, in my position as executive producer, to understand that when you hire someone, you hire them because they know what they are doing. I did not try and say, "I know everything because I was on That's So Raven." It's also a learning experience for me. I'm allowing these masterful artisans to shine through the show with their writing. set design, and all these beautiful components. I directed an episode this season. I'm hopefully going to write an episode this season as well. It's like a crash course. Allison Kugel: Single parent families and blended families are becoming something of a new normal. There is no conventional family anymore. Was it your idea to play a single mom and to portray this blended family dynamic on the show? Raven-Symone: It's a combination of The Disney Channel, the creators of this new installment of Raven Baxter's life, and myself. We all had to agree on showcasing a family that is within the fabric of today's society. It pushes forward the idea of positivity within any family structure, as long as it has love and respect for one another. Allison Kugel: Are you going to explore weightier issues this season, of course in a way that is digestible for kids and early adolescents; maybe things from race to sexuality, or kids lamenting the fact that they don't have a traditional family unit. Will any of these issues be covered? Raven-Symone: It will touch on the kids' feeling the weight of mom and dad not being together, and the kids feeling that maybe they want their parents together, or maybe they don't; all those mixed emotions will be explored. The topics we deal with are within the fabric of society, but we deal with them in a Disney fashion. We want to make sure that we respect the viewers that are watching, and their age range. Allison Kugel: You're not yet a mother in real life, but you play one very convincingly on television. You play it with a lot of texture; a lot of interesting notes. Where does that come from? Raven-Symone: I built [the character] from my own mother, from (actress and dancer) Debbie Allen, from the mothers that I have seen on TV; from the mothers that I have seen on TV that I don't want to be, and based on who I want to be as a mother. I know that I am part of that generation where they say, "You are trying to be friends with your kids." But I'm absolutely crazy and I want my kids to know that it's okay to be your authentic self every morning, every day. I've been all over the world and I really want to take in a little bit of how they're raising their children, and not putting such a stigma on certain things. It also comes from the way I was raised, knowing my manners, and saying "Miss" and "Ma'am" and "Mister." Even today, my mom has to remind me, "Raven, you're thirty-three. Stop calling someone who is forty 'Mister' or 'Miss.'" I can't help it. But I run into some kids and they're like "Hi Raven."  Allison Kugel: And you're going, "Excuse me?!" Raven-Symone: Yes! I'm like, "I'm thirty-three and you're twelve. I am Miss Raven." I am programmed to act a certain way. And then you encounter the new ways of living in our society, and you have to find a happy medium for yourself. I think I'm subconsciously practicing how I would react in certain situations, as a mother, while I am on television. That way, when I do become a mother, I can take some of what Raven Baxter does, what she deals with and how she deals with these kids and morph it into something I can be proud of as a parent. Allison Kugel: So, you do see having kids in your future. You do plan to become a mom? Raven-Symone: Oh, for sure. For sure! Being in the [entertainment] industry from the time I was a kid, you get pushed into only thinking about your career, career, career. And it's a little bit more of a conscious effort, especially in my world being within the LGBT community, to plan out [motherhood]. It's definitely in my future. I have a timeline-ish. But it is malleable because not everything can be planned. Allison Kugel: You got that right! From my perspective, there are two things that make you an interesting public figure. Number 1: from the outside looking in, it seems like you have elegantly and seamlessly transitioned from child actor to adult actor, and quite successfully. Number2: you are 100% authentic about who you are in every aspect of your life, including as you stated, being a part of the LGBT community. You haven't hidden behind your television image, and people have embraced who you are with open arms. Disney has embraced you for exactly who you are. I love that. What are your thoughts on those two things? Raven-Symone: I think that is a very kind assessment. Living in it, I don't agree. Allison Kugel: Wow, okay. So, your inner experience has been different… Raven-Symone: I really appreciate what you said. Sometimes you need to hear that. You're in the eye of the storm and people outside of the storm are going, "But there's a rainbow above you!" And I'm going, "Where? I don't see the rainbow." But I really appreciate that. I think when you're neck deep in a constant struggle between going outside and being recognized and trying to stay in and just live a normal life it can be tough. And you're trying to make sure you don't make the same mistakes that you've read about in the [National] Enquirer or on television since the 80s and 90s. I'm always tiptoeing around to make sure I make decisions I can be proud to put in my biography, later. It's a little bit more consuming for me and I haven't really been on the other side of it to see it. It's interesting, because I still feel like I'm seventeen if that makes any sense. Allison Kugel: It does. It makes sense because I just recently heard Paris Hilton say something about feeling stuck in this state of arrested development due to her celebrity that occurred in her late teens and early twenties. She said that for a long time she felt like she was frozen in time, like she was "forever twenty-one years old." I think when you become famous at a young age, the ball just keeps rolling, and you are kind of living in this bubble. And the bubble was created a long time ago. I think that is what you are describing. Raven-Symone: That's exactly it. Thank you, Paris! I will be the first to say that I'm going to quote Paris Hilton now. That is exactly how it feels. Allison Kugel: Do you now feel like the thirty-three-year-old woman that you are? Or are you still getting your bearings with that? Raven-Symone: In some ways I feel a lot older because I do own property. I have financial and personal responsibilities, and I'm helping to run a television show. But sometimes I feel like I'm pretending, because [in some ways] I feel like I'm still between the ages of seventeen and twenty-five, but a smart seventeen to twenty-five. It's because I've been captured in so many different age brackets. And I've had to exaggerate that age behavior for such a long time, while slowly growing to accommodate the way people see me in my career. As I slowly grow, they slowly grow. On the other hand, I grew up a lot faster. I knew how much my taxes were and how much I was getting paid at the age of three, at age six, at age seven. I knew that if I didn't work stuff wouldn't get paid, when normal seven-year-olds were worrying about who stole their lollipop. You know what I mean? So, in that respect I do have an older mind frame. It's a dual mind and it's weird.  Allison Kugel: I get that. Speaking of being a child actor, because you lived the experience, I would assume the kids in the cast of Raven's Home come to you for advice.
Raven-Symone: They've been very open with me and talked to me about things, and I've given advice. I appreciate that they respect what I have to say, but they still have to go through that journey on their own. They are starting their journey in the entertainment industry, so they don't want to say "no" to anything. They want to take every opportunity possible. I tell them they need to take a break. Of course, my journey was different from theirs; I grew up in a different time period. Now, there are so many more rules regarding child actors, and people who are looking out for their safety and well-being. Back in my day, I'd be working Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday; and then I was told I was speaking somewhere on Sunday. It was just a hot mess. Hopefully, what I've earned in the industry will settle into them, and they will grow up without having that arrested development… aftertaste (laughs). Allison Kugel: When you started in the business as a small child, there was no social media. Can you imagine the schedule you had back then, plus posting content to Instagram and Snapchat? Raven-Symone: One good thing is that cell phones are banned from sets. Disney has a great policy of not posting anything prematurely. Instead of taking a break, I see people posting and Instagramming all day. I remember when I was on That's So Raven and there was a break; I took naps. Now there's this extra element of having to stay current in the eyes of the consumer, and you get even more depleted. Taking needed breaks is healthy for the sanity of the human being, rather than the "celebrity." Allison Kugel: Will there ever be a Raven's Home episode where you delve into the topic of kids overdoing it with video games and social media? Raven-Symone: We touch on that topic, and it comes with a spoon full of sugar. What sets us apart from other shows like ours is we deal with these topics, but we deal with them with a realistic view, so both the parents are learning, and the kids are learning. Everybody learns on our show. Allison Kugel: Can you share any special guest stars coming on, or any other surprises this season? Raven-Symone: We have a friend of mine, Jaleel White (of "Family Matters," Steve Urkel fame), coming on the show. He has a nice little story arc with Raven Baxter and the kids. We also get to meet Chelsea's (played by Anneliese van der Pol) ex-husband, who has been incarcerated. Allison Kugel: That's heavy. Raven-Symone: Yes, and he finally comes out [of prison] and he starts designing a family that involves him, which I think is wonderful. Allison Kugel: Where do you see things going for you in the next five to ten years? Would you love to be behind the scenes more, producing and directing for a company like Disney? Raven-Symone: I see myself creating more content with Disney where my face is not in the front, but behind the scenes. I see myself creating more feature length content as well. I see myself graduating from school. I just want to graduate; I am the slowest student! I can only take one class per semester, and my mom would have a fit if I turned in anything less than a B-. So, it's hard with my schedule. I want to take more classes in directing. I got to direct an episode for Raven's Home, and I enjoyed it immensely. Allison Kugel: Could you see yourself at some point directing a theatrical release film or producing? Raven-Symone: Most definitely. That's the goal. Another goal of mine is to be a musical director. I love the Disney musicals and I love theatre. At fifty years old, I would love to direct in the capacity of feature lengths and musicals for sure. Season three of "Raven's Home" premieres Monday, June 17 (8pm ET/PT) on Disney Channel and DisneyNOW. Follow Raven-Symone Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Disney Channel/Craig Sjodin © 2018 Disney Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved. 
Listen to Allison’s full conversation with Robin Givens
By Allison Kugel
Actress Robin Givens has played many roles in her life; retiring wallflower not being among them. She burst onto the scene as the beautiful and brainy Darlene on Head of the Class, a sitcom that aired on ABC from 1986 to 1991. Those same years brought a media explosion as good girl Givens fell in love with, married and then divorced, boxing's former world heavyweight champion, Mike Tyson. The tumultuous pairing was brief and quickly devolved into a he said/she said of accusations about abuse and domestic violence, allegations which Tyson himself later publicly conceded to. Throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, Robin Givens picked up the pieces with a string of film roles including A Rage in Harlem with the late Gregory Hines, Forest Whitaker and Danny Glover; Boomerang opposite Halle Berry and Givens' former flame turned colleague, Eddie Murphy; Blankman opposite Damon Wayans and Head of State with Chris Rock. Steady work came her way, while sealing her reputation as the beautiful but dangerous femme fatale. The line between Givens' public image and her film work continued to blur. During this time period, she became a mom to two boys and retreated from the spotlight, save for the release of her 2007 memoir, Grace Will Lead Me Home, in which she opened up about the issue of domestic violence, which she admits in the book had plagued her family for generations. This was the birth of Robin Givens, women's advocate and outspoken crusader against domestic violence. Her speaking engagements culminated with one of her numerous appearances on the Oprah show in which she outlined her intimate journey with the issue. It is important to note that, according to The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence (NCADV) more than 10 million women and men (at a rate of 20 people per minute) in the U.S. are subjected to domestic violence, making this an issue that does transcend gender (though women are more likely to sustain substantial physical injury at the hands of an intimate partner, at a rate of 1 in 7 women to 1 in 25 men) as well as socio-economic status. In the 2010s, Givens refocused on acting with roles on long running daytime soap The Bold and the Beautiful, YouTube Red series Step Up: High Water (based on the film franchise), the CW's Riverdale and ABC's The Fix. On June 18th, Givens will shine as female lead, Stephanie Carlisle, in OWN's newest drama series, Ambitions. Throughout our conversation, Robin Givens held nothing back and no question was off the table as she offered thoughtful, sometimes emotionally charged, humorous and reflective insights on her journey through womanhood and Hollywood. Allison Kugel: You took years away from the spotlight to focus on being a mom to your two sons. Now you're back with two television shows, the CW's Riverdale and the new OWN series, Ambitions. I remember speaking with Elisabeth Shue years ago (The Karate Kid, Adventures in Babysitting, The Saint) and she said she went away to just be a mom to her three kids, and when she came back, she felt like the parade passed her by. How did you come back with the thunder? Robin Givens: I don't know Elisabeth and I don't know her story so well, but for me it wasn't only taking a break to raise my kids. It was also a break for myself. It's true that you feel like you are going to maintain your place in line; like everything is going to stop and wait for you. I had to realize that it's a process again. You have to enjoy the process and begin again, and I really fell in love with acting again. When I first started acting, it wasn't really like that. Now I can go in a room and act and do my thing and enjoy the process for what it is. Water seeks its own level. If you're good, you're good, and it all kind of begins again. Allison Kugel: Your new show, Ambitions is premiering June 18th on the OWN Network. It seems like Oprah has always championed your career. Even when the chips were down, she was a champion for your career. You worked with her as an actress, and you were also on the Oprah show quite a bit over the years. Robin Givens: I feel like at one point we were just friends. We did do [the mini-series] The Women of Brewster Place (1989) together, which was a huge role for me. She and I developed a genuine friendship, just as women. I don't think it had anything to do with my career, per se. I do think that there is something to it coming full circle and being here with her now, doing this show on her network. 
Allison Kugel: Do these vixen roles find you, or do you seek them out? How do you always wind up playing that women? I don't know how else to put it (laughs).
Robin Givens: (Laughs) You're right. There was a time when I was having these roles come to me and I remember saying to my agent, "I don't want to do that women. I just did that woman." I ended up turning something down because of it. I'm nothing like these women that I play, which is unusual and interesting for me. I always jokingly say, "I want to grow up and be them." Where I am now in my life, emotionally, it's like, "Okay, you want me to do that? Then I'm going to do it to death," and then wait for the opportunity where I can do something completely different. Allison Kugel: Before I do an interview, I'll ask people if they have any burning questions for the person I'm about to interview, and sometimes I'll take people's questions into consideration. I found out that a lot of men out there think you are that woman. Do you know that? Robin Givens: I think women think that too. I don't think it's only men. Whenever I'm in hair and makeup, they're always like, "My God, you are nothing like that person!" Me, Robin, I have a whole different rhythm. Allison Kugel: Your energy is completely different from your media image. But your name is still synonymous with Mike Tyson, the divorce heard 'round the world and those infamous interviews. Robin Givens: I have a better understanding of it now than I would have if you talked to me about it fifteen years ago, or even ten years ago. As a grown up, I just understand it better. I also didn't give people anything else to talk about for a while, and so my image got stuck there. I ran into Jay-Z at a party years ago, when I was doing Chicago on Broadway, and even he was fixated on it, because it was just so big. Allison Kugel: People love to talk about your past relationships, not just with [Mike]Tyson, but with Brad Pitt and Eddie Murphy. Do you play on that image for a role like your character, Stephanie Carlisle, on Ambitions? Robin Givens: You're making my life sound way more exciting than it is, but no I don't. I know we are in this world where we want things to be tantalizing, but I am a big believer in truths. The one thing I agree with when it comes to our current state of politics is that there has been plenty of fake news. I feel like I was the original fake news. I would be a crazy person if, given what I went through in my past, I didn't believe in the truth. I would never approach working on a character with any sense of that… thing, or that time period that wasn't even true. I lived through a time of absolute bullshit at a very young age. I now have a son who is twenty-five, who I see as a baby. I was younger than that when all that craziness was happening. Certainly, I hope it made me the person that I am, but I don't think I would have been able to say that before. 
Allison Kugel: And you probably didn’t have the tools at that time to get the facts out there the way you wanted to.
Robin Givens: I was speaking with Wendy Williams recently and she said to me, "Thank God social media wasn't going on at that time in your life." And I said, "You know, actually it would have been easier." Now, you can literally get on Twitter and say "Hey, that's not true!" Allison Kugel: I was a bit taken aback when in speaking with some people before our interview, the general consensus was, "She did Mike Tyson dirty years ago." Robin Givens: The only thing I did dirty was that I said, "I don't want to be in a relationship where you tell me you are going to kill me." I didn't take one cent from my ex-husband. I left my panties there; I left my favorite teddy bear there. I left everything I had in that house. The rest is fake news. I said, "I want out of this relationship because I think you are going to do what you said, which is kill me." When I see what happened to Nicole [Brown] Simpson and other women that I talk to, that is a very real thing. I am here, walking, living and breathing. Allison Kugel: And it was thirty years ago people. You've had so much going on since then. You have your two boys, a thriving acting career, your advocacy work for women. I'm proud of you. Robin Givens: Thank you. It is a really interesting conversation to have, because my ex-husband used to say to me, "I'm a hero to the guys. Women love me and guys love me. I'm a star to the stars." It's hard to go up against all of that. I left with my life, and I left so sorry that I put my family in such a horrific situation. The reality is, the guy I lived with was the same guy that bit up [Evander] Holyfield's ear in the ring. That's the guy I was dealing with on a daily basis; the same guy that went to jail for rape (Givens is speaking of Tyson's 1992 rape conviction). I was dealing with that guy the best way I could at twenty-two years old. Allison Kugel: I interviewed Mike, I think about seven years ago, and I liked him during our interview. Of course, it was so many years later. I don't want to take away from his ability to change and grow as a person. But what you experienced is valid and real, and your feelings about it are valid and very real. Your voice also continues to be valuable regarding domestic violence. Robin Givens: I've done a lot of work with women, and it's not only happening with celebrities, obviously. It's the guy at the golf club in Connecticut that everybody loves. It's the mayor of a small town who's sweet and charming in public. I don't want to make this [issue] all about me. With everything that is going on with the #MeToo movement, we're kind of forcing a lot of men to get that certain things are unacceptable. Certain things now, thirty years later, must be unacceptable. We have to do better now. Allison Kugel: You began speaking up about violence against women years before the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements took root. Robin Givens: I didn't plan on speaking on behalf of women, but it really did become a part of my healing. My ex-husband had been on Oprah and he had talked about hitting me in a cavalier way, like, "Oh, yeah I hit her," and everybody [in the audience] laughed. I was somewhere doing a speaking engagement, and someone said to me, "Robin, you can't take this!" I realized it was far bigger than me and I was told I had to do something, if not for me, then for all other women. One of the things I always say is, "My story is your story, and your story is my story." Allison Kugel: That was when you had that sit-down with Oprah to air your grievances about Mike Tyson's appearance on her show… Robin Givens: I sat down with Oprah to discuss her interview with my ex-husband, which was the last thing I wanted to do. She apologized to me. After the show, she came into my dressing room and she said "Robin, as it was happening I knew it was wrong, but I didn't know what to do." I think that sums up a lot. Not to put the weight of the world on Oprah. Certainly, she is an amazing, amazing woman. But if Oprah Winfrey doesn't know what to do in these situations, the discomfort of it, then a lot of us don't know how to respond to that. It's much easier to put people in a box and say, "She must have wanted his money," than to believe that somebody could punch a 105-pound woman. We saw it happen with (ex-NFL player) Ray Rice. Now you can't pretend it away or give an excuse for it. Now we have a responsibility to not let certain things slide. We're better than that and we've come too far. 
Allison Kugel: What are the biggest misconceptions about you and famous men, in general?
Robin Givens: I met Eddie Murphy when I was in my sophomore year at Sarah Lawrence College. He had just gotten Saturday Night Live. He wasn't the "Eddie Murphy" that the world now knows, at that time. He was an actor that was happy to get a job. It was the same thing with Brad Pitt. When I dated Brad, Brad couldn't get a job. I was paying for all our meals and he was a struggling actor. We talked a lot about acting because were in acting class together, and we loved acting together. When we dated, he literally couldn't pay for dinner. At the time, I had already gotten the role on Head of the Class. It was a different dynamic, where I was the big deal to [Brad]. You know what I mean? I lived it all at a young age, thank God, and I get to have a good perspective on reality and how it can be changed. Allison Kugel: There was a pivotal moment in your life, when I believe you were studying at Harvard with the intention to become a doctor, before you decided to pivot and pursue acting. In retrospect, was this the right path? Robin Givens: I was at Harvard Graduate School and I knew I was going to be a doctor, or so I thought at the time. By the time I got to Harvard I was really wanting to pursue acting. If you asked me ten years ago, I would have said I should have become a doctor. As a mom, I just came from visiting my son and saying to him, "Get a law degree! Get a law degree!" My mom was raised in the south at a time when, as a woman, she couldn't go in the front door of a movie theatre. She could buy clothes at Woolworth, but she couldn't try them on, and she couldn't sit at the counter and eat. I think I grew up with the sense of, what she believed, which is that education is a great equalizing factor in America. I have a parent who, literally, just stopped leaving me medical school applications any time she'd come to visit. Up until recently, I knew there was an application to some medical school lurking somewhere in the house (laughs). Allison Kugel: Do you pray? If so, who or what do you pray to? Robin Givens: I have a great relationship with God. For me, that has been a very important relationship. He's the only father I've ever known. I would often sit down with God and say, "I don't want to have to go through this." But it's all gotten me to where I am, both as a person and as a mom with these two kids. I grew up Catholic with a sense of the ritual of Catholicism. Certainly, I have some questions about all of that now, and some misgivings. But it is something I still do [observe]. And I always say that my ex-husband [Mike Tyson] taught me, and gave me, a true relationship with God. Allison Kugel: What do you think you are here on this earth as Robin Givens to learn, and what do you think you are here to teach? Robin Givens: I'm the first of two children and I have a type-A personality. I always say I'm a recovering perfectionist. That's something I've had to learn, and there is a kind of humor in the quest for perfection. It's not very interesting, and you can never really achieve it. That's something that life has taught me. The difficulty that I have gone through has really taught me a sense of compassion. Most people in my life know that I am a compassionate, loving person. I've also had to learn to relax a little bit, because my brain does start overworking. Allison Kugel: And what are you here to teach? Robin Givens: I would say the same thing; sharing a sense of compassion. Life is short and time truly is our greatest commodity. It's the one thing you never get back. I lost a sister, unexpectedly, almost five years ago and I would do anything to have more of those moments. I try to tell my children that there is not that much to get here [on earth]. You want to have enough to spend time with the people you love. You want to have dinner with the people you love. If you feel like going to Paris, you want to go to Paris with people you love. It's all about the moments, and not the car you drive. Happiness and joy lie in simplicity, so try to keep it simple. Allison Kugel: I would agree! Let's dive into your character, Stephanie Carlisle, on Ambitions. Robin Givens: She doesn't use any of the things I just talked about (laughs). What interests me about my job is the challenge to bring a character like Stephanie Carlisle to life. To get the role of Stephanie, I borrowed a dress from The Fix (ABC) for the audition. Once I read the script, I felt I could do this role better than anyone. I just needed to carry that energy into the room with me and believe it. Once I started to dissect her, I knew that I wanted her to be more than what was on the page. I wanted to give her shades and dimensions, a heart, and make her real. She was written as an ice queen, but there is more to her. My interpretation is that she is a woman that has her own set of rules. She also has this sensibility that she is never going to live up to her father, and that’s where her wanting comes from. Allison Kugel: Why should audiences tune in to watch Ambitions? Robin Givens: I could describe it as a guilty pleasure, but someone once said, "There is no guilt in pleasure." It's going to be that kind of fun show where women gather around to watch with some wine and popcorn. Their husbands or boyfriends will walk by and probably join them. I think men will love it as much as women. Ambitions premieres on Tuesday, June 18 @ 10/9c on OWN. Follow Robin Givens on Twitter @therocknrobn and Instagram @robingivens. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and owner of communications firm, Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and AllisonKugel.com. Photo Credits: Courtesy of OWN/Richard Ducree, Courtesy of OWN/Guy D'Alema, Courtesy of OWN/Peggy Sirota 
By Allison Kugel
If you were to ask any director who's worked with the legendary Pam Grier they would likely tell you that having Pam on their set is a game changer. She knows what she wants and what she brings to the table. Just stand back and watch the force that is Pam. Throughout our conversation she made it clear that clinging to her perfectly proportioned black Barbie superhero past doesn't interest her. It's a lovely time capsule that will be well documented in biopic about her life based on her autobiography Foxy (Grand Central Publishing) that is currently in pre-production. These days Pam is focused on roles that represent mature, well rounded women living their authentic lives and not hiding behind a veneer of glam. Even stripped down to the studs, Pam Grier still exudes sensuality that leads men of all ages to her like the Pied Piper. In her first network sitcom role in Bless This Mess (ABC, 9:30/8:30c), Grier plays Constance, the local fix-it-all and know-it-all in small town Nebraska. She is the brilliant and funny foil to Dax Shepard and Lake Bell's transplanted Manhattanite characters, Mike and Rio. We witness Shepard and Bell's characters stumble and bumble through middle-American culture and country life through the eyes of Grier's amusement, as Ed Begley Jr.'s character, Rudy, tirelessly pursues her. Grier will also appear on the big screen alongside Diane Keaton and Rhea Perlman in Poms (out May 10th), a comedy about a group of women in a retirement community who reclaim their vigor and spice through starting a cheerleading squad. Allison Kugel: Let's talk about your new show, Bless This Mess. Is this your first time doing a network sitcom? Pam Grier: Let's see… yes, I do believe so. There was one with Michael J. Fox that was short lived, but I think this was the first one where it allows me to work with creatives like [the show's creator] Elizabeth Meriwether and [actress and co-creator] Lake Bell. I said to them, "Out here as country women, we take our Spanx off." I took my Spanx off and I did some chores before I came in to see them [for the role]. I was a little dusty and I smelled of barn and John Deere fuel. I smelled the part, so that helped (laughs). Allison Kugel: People don't know that about you. You're a country western girl. That's how you live when you're not working. Pam Grier: My upbringing had been military, rural and urban. It was the best of all worlds. I've learned from each aspect of my culture and I see the world through women who were offered the opportunity to be equals. My grandfather was the first feminist in my life. He was from Wyoming. He was my mom's dad, and his mom had a sugar beet farm. She was a single mom and they had a hotel for African- Americans, Native Americans and other people of color to stay in. He was accustomed to seeing independent women learn how to do things. He taught all his granddaughters how to be self-sufficient. Allison Kugel: What are some of the most notable things your grandfather taught you? Pam Grier: He taught all of us to hunt, fish, shoot, drive the tractor, bring the boat in, change tires and spark plugs… you name it. That way you could always survive, without waiting for someone to take care of you. Since I've been in film, since the seventies, this is something that's prepared me. When you're working in film, and then you're not working and you are home, how can you maximize taking care of your home and taking care of yourself, your family, your animals? I've had that and I bring that energy and information to my character, Constance, on this show. And my character wears a lot of hats. Allison Kugel: You're not known for comedy. Did they think you could be funny? Pam Grier: Yes, but Lake was talking about how she was afraid of cows. I said, "Cows won't hurt you, but if you come at a cow with a knife and a fork, you might have a problem (laughs). I would tell stories about things I would do if there's a mountain lion outside attacking my chicken coop and stuff like that. I would tell people not to go for long country walks in the night if there is no light. This is Jurassic Park for real. But what they really wanted to know about was the concept of inclusion, which is what this show is really about. My character is a sheriff, she owns the vehicle lumber yard, the hardware store; she's the theatre director, she sings, she knows everyone's business, she's the referee. Sometimes she has to pull people out of a ditch with her truck. Allison Kugel: How do you feel Bless This Mess handles inclusion, as far as steering clear of urban stereotypes of middle America? Pam Grier: I mentioned to Lake [Bell], when they didn't have a script and they had no idea what they might do or write. I said to her, "There is one thing I must implore you, and that is not to make fun of the heartland." People go to the heartland to find their hearts. I believe that the farmer is the hero or heroine of the day. They should be in every magazine, all the time. I'm a member of the Farmland Trust, and we try to keep people aware that farming should be organic, across the board. In Canada they know how to successfully do that. Here in the U.S., they have kept the subsidies and the information for the farmers away from them. Allison Kugel: Ed Begley Jr. plays your love interest. How's the chemistry between you too when you are working together? Pam Grier: He can sing, he can dance… he's got a bag of tricks! He and his wife Rachelle had me over to their home the first week, for dinner. Ed did a lot of the cooking, and he is exceptional. They are just two peas in a pod. The nicest people; they finish each other's sentences. He is so informative. You want to sit at his feet like he is Yoda. Ed is sustainable, he's a mad scientist, and he can teach you. We were talking about farming and growing and dirt and moisture and oxidization and nutrients in the soil to create a great bed for plants. We really enjoy that aspect of our relationship. Allison Kugel: Your career has done a 180. You're playing this quirky country role in Bless This Mess, and this month you are also in the film Poms with Diane Keaton and Rhea Perlman where you are poking fun at getting older. As someone who was an icon of sex appeal and glamour, how did that play a role, not just in your earlier career, but in your life? And how are you now processing going through the different stages of life? Pam Grier: I've always controlled my image for political, religious and spiritual purposes, and I've embraced aging. When I met Robert De Niro with his first wife, Diahnne Abbott, he was gaining weight in order to play Jake LaMotta in Raging Bull. We were in his kitchen talking and I said to him, "I would like to gain weight for my roles." Because as a woman, society responds differently to your weight and to your appearance, and your sex appeal. I guess in certain cultures if you are not a standard size 4 or 6 you're not considered attractive. There are psychological aspects towards that. The younger, slimmer and more youthful looking you are, the better for child bearing and maybe you're thought to be more sexual or whatever. I love the fact that people do respond differently when I am a size twelve than when I am a size four; completely different dynamic and really interesting to me. Allison Kugel: People perceive that the more attractive you are considered by society, the easier that opportunities and good things will come your way. Why would you want to forfeit that? Pam Grier: When I did the play Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune and I gained weight to play that role, I wanted to do that role and the producer said you should see Kathy Bates play this role. When I went to see her and I saw that she had this beautiful weight on her, which is very normal in certain cultures, while in other cultures not as acceptable, I just thought she was so stunningly beautiful. It brought a certain element and richness to her character. I don't know what it was, but I just felt this couple in love [in the show]. It was amazing. I thought, "If I can just reach half the energy she portrayed, I would be grateful. At the time I thought, "I'm really skinny. I run seven miles a day. How do I do this." Allison Kugel: You were known and celebrated for being beautiful, fit and strong. Pam Grier: Well, Robert De Niro had said it would be different for me as a woman. He said to me, "You'll lose your attractiveness in society." I said, "You know what? I'm controlling it. This is my work. This is my dream." I put on forty pounds. My body changed, and people reacted to me differently than when you're young and skinny. But you know what? When you have a little more weight on, yet you are still attractive, your skin is clear and your hair is well groomed, you're still going to get some doors opened for you. 
Allison Kugel: Are you comfortable in your skin at any weight? Pam Grier: At any weight. I can gain weight and lose weight, if I have to, for whatever reason. I remember when I was meeting with Spike Lee for a role while I was still doing Frankie and Johnny. When he saw me with weight on, he said, "Wow! You're a little bit heavier than I thought. Are you okay? Are you sick?" He didn't know I was doing a play. I told him it was appropriate for the character, and that it's working. I didn’t want people to come and see someone skinny and exotic looking and have them not see and hear [my] work. Allison Kugel: I am truly surprised by your point of view. It makes me wonder if people really knew you at the height of your fame. Pam Grier: I don’t know if it's psychological or just human nature, but people are used to seeing certain imagery in advertising continuously, so that's their filter. If I didn't gain the weight, I wouldn't have gotten that job. And women in this business won't gain weight because they're afraid of not working. They want to be attractive and have that value. I'm a person that doesn't look at weight and judge what's beautiful and what's not. I do know that these heavier actors and actresses are always working. Their work is fantastic, and you see this wisdom, you see this value. I know there is a designation within society about who is going to be wise and who isn't; who is going to be stupid. But let me tell you, maybe because I've had a sexuality and I still do now, it's kind of interesting that these young men in their forties are attempting to court me. Allison Kugel: This morning, someone said to me, "Tell her I love her. Tell her I think she is amazing." I said, "Take a number!" Pam Grier: (Laughs) Way back when women had weight on them, they were zaftig and Rubenesque, and very appealing to a lot of men. A lot of rugged, handsome men would have a woman that would be very zaftig, and not thin. They didn't believe thin women could do anything, and they would be hungry all the time. If a woman can do something, a man will have more respect for her. Maybe when I was younger, men assumed that I just went shopping and sat around by the pool and didn’t do much. Then they'd be shocked to see me changing my tire, fixing screens, putting the fence up, pushing manure and rock. Sometimes I would say to men, "What do you need? Don't have me have to fix this for you." Allison Kugel: Is that how you are in relationships? Are you the kind of woman who likes to do everything for herself? Pam Grier: Oh, no. I'm a partner. Whoever can do it for me, I'm game and I'm a listener. I love to listen. I am a researcher, but if you know more, then by all means share it. I don't have to do everything. But if it is life and death, I'm the person. At home, in all my fields, I have fire extinguishers because people flick their cigarettes out, and in a time of global warming fires are starting on the side of the road and burning up entire communities. Allison Kugel: They could have used you in California. Pam Grier: People have sprinklers on the inside of their homes. They should have them on the outside of their homes. Turn them on, wet down your property and leave. At least it will be so wet that the embers won't land on your house or around your house and burn it down. At the very least, it's a retardant. It will slow it down, if it won't completely stop it. I live in a forest and I am responsible for six animals. I'm responsible for not starting a fire and burning down everyone else's home and killing people. Aside from the comedy, that's also what our show is about. Having fun, enjoying and respecting our naturally occurring resources. Allison Kugel: And having a sense of responsibility for the earth, our ecosystem, our land and other people. Pam Grier: People are fear-based because they have given up a lot of their own confidence and strength to other people. "Here, handle my politics, do my taxes, you take care of me." And then when other people mess up, they feel victimized by the person they gave their power over to. People don't even realize how much power they have. They have acquiesced; they've given it away. I'm around people here in Colorado (where Grier lives most of the year) who've never flown before. They've only seen black people on television. When they meet me, they go, "Oh, she's just like us." It's astonishing. I can't criticize them, but they are so glad to meet me and to know that everything's going to be alright, that I'm not gonna open up a meth lab down the road. When they get to know me, it shifts for them in an instant. They realize that whoever told them, or whatever perception they had that was negative about other cultures, is now gone. Allison Kugel: You've been in show business now for about 50 years? Pam Grier: Fifty years, plus. My career is older than you! Allison Kugel: (Laughs) How do you want your body of work to be studied? Because it will be studied in years to come? Pam Grier: It already is studied, and they always tell me I'm a master class or thesis, and I'm going, "Whoa. Oh boy!" I'll tell you this, when I started doing stunts, that I'm feeling the pain from now, I didn't have a sports bra and it was a lot harder to be very physical and authentic. I don't want to be remembers as being perfect. I want to be remembered as being real. Allison Kugel: You are thought to be the first African- American female to headline action films. Where are your successors? Where is the next Pam Grier? Pam Grier: They're probably out there limping, as I did. They got hurt and said, "Don't wanna do that again!" I was a gymnast and I skied; I ran track. Anything to keep from doing the dishes, I loved. You have to have a little bit of that in your nature to be that physical. Not everyone is, or can be. You might be able to act the part, but If they didn't have that in their upbringing, they may not be following in my footsteps. Right now I see some white actresses like Charlize Theron and Rachel Weisz, who I never thought would do martial arts and stunts and action movies, who really enjoy them. But they did say they got a couple of "ow-ies," and they don't know if they will do it again. Not everybody is rushing into doing that kind of physical work. Allison Kugel: Is there any type of role you wouldn't take on, because it's not in your wheelhouse? Pam Grier: I was sexually attacked and raped at the age of 6, and then again at 18 in college, and then there was a third attack that I fought off. I couldn't believe what was happening. I didn't understand it. But I know that I cannot portray that in a movie, because I don't want to revisit those moments and emotions. A lot of actresses who will be up for the casting to play me in the film of my life, many of them may have had those same experiences and won't be able to re-live them, okay? Not everyone can do that; not everyone wants to re-visit that. If they can, it will be fantastic, but I know that I have had to turn down roles that have those kinds of attacks, because I couldn't do it. I had to pass. There were major directors and producers through the years, where they didn't know why I was passing, but I just passed. I knew I might snap. I don't know if I can go there. Not every actor can play every role, and there is a reason, and it may be private. Allison Kugel: But you are enjoying having audiences get to know the part of you that shines as Constance on Bless This Mess. Pam Grier: I'm sharing my rural side, my military side, my pragmatic side and my sexy side in this wonderful role that has been bestowed upon me by actress and co-creator Lake Bell and [co-creator] Elizabeth Meriwether; and ABC and Fox and Disney. They support me greatly, they listen to me, and they laugh at some of the funny things I do. Even the way I came into my initial meeting with them, all stinky from doing chores. Who does that? Allison Kugel: That's not so much method acting as it is the real Pam Grier! You're a roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty kind of woman. Pam Grier: That's right. For fifty years of my career, I would commute. I would come off the plane ready to work, in character, and I was very serious about my work. I couldn't do all the roles because I'm tall. For example, I couldn't play Tina Turner, because I was 5'9" and she's 5'1". I'm not going to get roles where the characters are diminutive. I was always asked why I didn't play Tina Turner. I'm actually, like, a foot taller than Tina. I'd be the tallest Tina Turner in the world. Like Geena Davis and a lot of my peers who are tall, we don't get a lot of the roles with husbands and love stories, because of our height and the perception that the husband should be taller than the woman. Allison Kugel: This interview reminds me of how film directors will say that sometimes they'll have an actor on set, and they know the best thing they can do is get out of their way and just let them do their thing. With this interview, I couldn't direct you. You directed the interview, but I learned a whole lot and I thank you! Pam Grier: Well, I love to share and I love to teach. I've got a PhD. from the University of Maryland in the Humanities, and an honorary degree in Science from Langston University in Agriculture. It's who I am. Watch "Bless This Mess," starring Lake Bell, Dax Shepard, Pam Grier and Ed Begley Jr. on ABC, Tuesdays at 9:30/8:30c. Pam will also star in "Poms" with Diane Keaton and Rhea Perlman, in theatres Friday, May 10th. Follow her on Twitter @PamGrier Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record available on Amazon and owner of Full Scale Media. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com. PHOTO CREDITS: BLESS THIS MESS - ABC/John Fleenor © 2018-2019 Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation. All rights reserved. |
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aboutAllison Kugel is an entertainment and pop culture journalist with a syndicated interview column that reaches more than 10 million readers throughout the United States, Canada, UK and Australia.
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