Leila Steinberg on discovering a 17 year old Tupac Shakur for her Bay Area artist workshop, The Mic Sessions:

“The reason Tupac came about is because I kept saying, ‘Oh gosh, we need a rapper that is about social justice, that gets some of the same things [as me].’ I kept looking for someone that was kind of like me; someone who read like crazy and could tackle issues that we don’t talk about. Public Enemy was too radical. There were artists that were in hip hop that were using their voices, but they couldn’t penetrate the schools, because they were too extreme. I was looking for somebody that could straddle these worlds like I could. One day Luanda, who was one of our group members said there was a kid that just came from Baltimore, and that he was it. She’s the reason Pac came to the group. He had lots of poems. Poems, lyrics… and from the first poem, I knew.”
 
Leila Steinberg On Tupac being exploited, financially:

“I didn’t know what I couldn’t do. I thought it was tangible to change the world. I thought it was tangible to change the hearts of the planet. When the two of us connected, it was like, ‘Oh, we’re about to make a massive difference! What I didn’t understand was this industry, how toxic this world is, and the role of money and what having that level of attention and access and money would do to all of us. I think the tragedy and what happened with Pac that people don’t analyze and dissect is the complication of how much money we make off of talent, what that does to talent, and the pressure that it puts on a young gifted soul that really entered wanting to make a difference.”
 
“I don’t think, I know Tupac was exploited financially. I witnessed it. I witnessed the direction of his career and the power people that didn’t want to hear my voice or my resistance. I did choose to stop managing him, but I stayed close and there were people making a ton of money from the beginning of his career until the end of his career. Back then, if you were an artist in the early ‘90s, you got an 8 to 12 point deal. Points are percentages (1 point is equal to 1%), so if you look at a pie and you look at 100%, back then with CDs selling for $15.00, a piece and you sell a million, and he sold a lot more than that. Just look at the numbers. Let’s say he got 12 points. You pay your producer 4 of those 12, your manager. You really walk away with what? 4 or 5 points of your 100. That was typical, and we’re still talking about the exploitation, primarily of people of color.”
 
“Tupac did make some money, but he didn’t have access to it. At the end Suge controlled all of it. Millions we made. Tupac did own some houses. He saw a million, but what’s a million? It’s crumbs. There were hundreds of millions made off of Tupac. There are people who own homes and property now off of Tupac money, and it’s not those of us that were there grinding and working.”
 
Leila Steinberg on fights between Leila and Tupac in the last years of his life:
​
“Our fights were a fight for his soul. It was a fight for him to not get consumed by the company he was in. I already saw him getting consumed by the industry and the lifestyle, pre-Suge [Knight]. He was fighting for his life then. I think Malcolm X’s story is really important here. I think a lot of people rock Malcolm X hats and gear, and they don’t even really know his story and never read his book. Tupac loved Malcolm X, because he loved {Malcolm X’s] journey. He loved that Malcolm X made mistakes and that he had an entire transformation, which is why he left the Nation [of Islam]. It’s the transformation that is important in this story, and what it was to be in a radical fight for Black people, and then his transition into Islam; and true Islam embraced all people. I think Tupac’s trajectory was the opposite. Tupac started out with this incredible vision. He was always caused-based and his whole life he wanted to dedicate to making the difference. And what happened was, you cannot surround yourself with toxic things, toxic people and toxic behavior. You become what you want to save. Pac is the classic example of being surrounded and sucked in and not having a way out; not being able to free himself from the clutches of that. Tupac was never a gangster, that was not him. I was surrounded by more of those elements than he ever was.  He just wanted to make that difference, and he ended up really making horrible choices and getting caught up. That’s the tragedy.”

Leila Steinberg on why Tupac Shakur is not alive today:

“He had many lucid moments when he got it and he wanted out. Oh, he wanted out. But some lines you cross, you can’t come back from. The deal with Suge, you can’t come back from that. He couldn’t just walk away. I don’t think he ever wanted in [with Death Row Records]. He was in jail and desperate, and he made a move based on desperation, and he did not understand the cost or the consequence because he was dealing with real gangsters. He is not alive today because he was dealing with real gang members. That was not him. He thought he could do this deal, get out, give Suge these three records and have his freedom. It didn’t work that way. It was never going to work that way.”
 
“Tupac always was angry. He always had a temper. He was very dramatic and amplified, and it all got skewed. The lines get blurred. His erupting looked like [gang] participation, but there were two different eruptions happening. He never joined the Bloods or the Crips, or anything. He was not an active gang member. He wanted to be the one that could organize the treaties between all of them. He thought he could go anywhere, walk anywhere, be in any hood. It doesn’t work that way. He was in over his head.”
 
Leila Steinberg on actor Omari Hardwick getting discovered at Leila’s famous ‘Mic Sessions’ workshop:

“Omari was in workshop, he got his agent out of my workshop and got his first breaks at my workshop. Omari’s a brilliant talent. He definitely grew in the space. I always want to say, ‘Can I use the early footage from when you first started?’ (laughs), because I have all the early tapes from when he was working a lot of stuff out. He was doing poems, monologues, raps, all of that. It’s hard because Omari really hit as an actor, and did so well. You get pigeonholed and they don’t want to let you be the full artist you are. Omari was a brilliant musician, rapper, singer. He could do it all. And he has not been supported in that journey. I tried to help Omari a number of times. I hit people up. It’s a difficult industry and that’s where we need to change the face of the owners of companies. We still have so much work to do.”
 
On why it was easier for Tupac to act and rap, and not easy for Omari Hardwick to break into music:

“It was easier for Tupac, because he entered music and ended up in acting, so then you can bring your music into the acting. If you start in acting, it’s really hard. They don’t want you taking time away. There is so much more money in acting.”
 
Leila Steinberg on how Tupac’s movie roles influenced his personality:
​
“In music you give people you. You pour your heart out. You get to know someone’s soul and their being through their music. In acting, you play all these other people. You run from you. And Tupac was a runner. He was challenged throughout his whole journey. He went through so much, that he loved escaping into different roles to explore all the different facets of himself. But, you know, people talk about Juice and what that character did to him. It definitely did something to him. Every character does something to the actor. You live and you breathe this character and it consumes you, and it spills into your [other] work. So that definitely happened.”
 
“We never got to see who he could have become. He wrote three films. Maybe one day they’ll come out.”

Leila Steinberg on Keffe D’s arrest for the murder of Tupac Shakur:

“Is it justice? Yeah, somewhat. But, you know, Keffe D lived his life for the last 27 years. There is some relief, but it’s complicated. He wasn’t the only one involved. It’s going to take some years for this to play out. Does it make me feel better? Not really. I didn’t have some sense of relief or of feeling better. I want justice. I believe in justice, so yes, I think it was important. It’s important that these next few years play out, but it didn’t make me feel any better, or whatever I thought maybe I would feel.
 
Does Leila believe there are others involved in the murder of Tupac who are still alive today?:
​
“One hundred percent, yeah; on every side of everything. It’s kind of amazing it went this long without it coming out. People always tell on themselves. The truth always finds the light. There are definitely plenty of people who knew, and there is also the role of law enforcement. It was in Vegas. There’s cameras everywhere. How do you have such a high profile city and no one knows or sees anything?”
 
About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Watch and embed the entire interview video with Leila Steinberg @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com
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On Tupac Shakur gushing over his work on In Living Color:
​
“Tupac was a brilliant little actor who knew himself really well on camera. He really did. The thing that struck me about him was that he was really humble and nice to me. He wasn’t like, ‘Yo, wassup man?’ He didn’t seem like that to me.  He was very humble, and he was kind of bashful. He said, ‘Hey Mr. Davidson, I just really admire your work, man. You really have done it for me, man. I really appreciate you.’  He was like that. It was warm. The sketch was scripted, but it was improved by us (laugh). Even though it was scripted, we never did that. But he could keep up. He could definitely keep up.”

On the cultural phenomenon of In Living Color in the ‘90s:
​
“It really was a phenomenon whose time had come. You couldn’t hold the dam back, but for so long.  And what came out of it was Blacks showing white America that we all have been laughing, and we will be laughing about the same things as long as we live here. White people didn’t laugh at that stuff until In Living Color, and Black people didn’t feel like being funny in front of them until In Living Color. Whites have been watching from the very beginning and laughing.” 
 
“We were all in Hollywood for 6,7,8 years. Jim [Carrey] and them had been out there for 12, 13, 14 years.  So, we finally got together with [In Living Color] and we knew what it would do, because previously, TV and movies didn’t want that. They didn’t want us doing that. That was what Robert Townsend’s first movie (1987’s Hollywood Shuffle) was about.  It was about how they miscast us, how they don’t cast us, how they don’t show us. So we knew when we got on the air, we were happy because we knew. I don’t think we knew what that thing called fame was. I know I didn’t. None of us expected that.  You can’t predict that, or how you are going to react to that.”
 
His thoughts on why Dave Chappelle felt exploited during the making of Chappelle’s Show:

“I’m going to say this.  I think there is a certain ego that your European males experience at a certain stage of having relationships with us.  They kind of become a little uncomfortable with the fact that we are equal in our humanity; that we are not outside of humanity in some suit, but we are part of humanity. And I don’t blame them. They are not in touch with the generations who had nothing. They are generations out from that. They started operating like they already had something.”
 
On Jada Pinkett Smith:

“I just love that girl.  She’s been one of my best friends.  She’s been there for me a lot.  She was there for me the day I met my birth mother. She knew something was wrong with me that day.  I just came back from a trip where I met [my birth mother].  We were on the set of Woo and Jada looked at me and said, ‘What’s wrong with you?’  I said, ‘Nothing.’ She said, ‘Something is wrong with you.’  I said, ‘Nothing is wrong with me. Let’s go shoot.’ She said, ‘No. something is wrong.  Something looks different about you.  I’m telling you, something is wrong.  What is wrong?’  There were cameras all around and people getting ready, and Jada said, ‘Come here.  What did you do yesterday?  What is going on?’  I told her, ‘I met my real mother yesterday,’ and she said, ‘Thank you! That’s a wrap for today. Go home. Come back tomorrow. You can’t just come here like that.  You need to go home and just be with that.’”
 
On Jada and Will’s marriage and the kissing scene in 1998’s Woo that led to a fight:

​“When any personal relationship becomes public, everyone is going to have an opinion and it is one of the things that us as talents have to deal with if we get into that area, you know?  I’ve had more negative experiences with Will than with Jada.  But I’ve also had positive experiences with both of them and they are both human to me.  When I found out the reason [Will] wanted to fight me, and I didn’t know for 15 years why he wanted to fight me, it was because he thought that I over kissed Jada in a scene.”
 
“Will was mad about that and I didn’t know anything about that, because they wanted me to go into a kissing scene with Jada, and I wasn’t going to do that when me and Jada hadn’t rehearsed that.  They were saying, ‘We don’t have enough time,’ and I said,  ‘I’m not doing it until she tells me it’s okay to do.  I’m not doing that without rehearsing.’ So they came back to my trailer and said, ‘Jada said to just go for it.’ I thought, ‘I’m not just going for it.  I’m going to just try to make it look real.’ It was after that scene that Will came to me and said, ‘Why did you do this to me?’  I said, ‘Okay, let’s go outside,’  and Jada said, ‘No!’  I then said to Jada, ‘Then tell him to just leave me alone.’ It wasn’t until I took that paragraph out of my book (Living In Color, Kensington) and sent it to both of them to read before I put it in the book…”
 
Allison Kugel: And they both approved it?
 
Tommy Davidson: “Both of them called me back and said, ‘Yeah.’” 
 
About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Watch and embed the entire interview video with Tommy Davidson @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com.
 
Tommy Davidson's New single, I Know, is available wherever you stream your music. He is currently on tour with comedian Katt Williams through December 2023.
​

On last moments with Mac Miller and not regrets:
​
“We were in the recording studio and he had a party pack, which is every kind of drug you can take and it’s in a pack or a box or whatever.  He pulls out this box and pops a couple of things and offers me some coke.  If I could turn back the hands of time, I would have snatched that box.  I know he probably would have tried to fight me (laugh), but I would have snatched that box and dumped it in the toilet, and flushed it.  I knew Mac Miller when he was, like, 17.  I threw his 18th birthday party at my studio. He was like a little brother to me.  I hated to see him do that. He was around 25 or 26 before he passed, so he was a grown-ass man.  I saw what he was doing. I didn’t say anything. I just told him, “I’m cool, I’m straight. Let’s just finish the music.”  I swear, if I could turn back the hands of time, I would have snatched that box and thrown that box across the street, and said, ‘Look, get mad if you want, but I love you.  I want to see you alive.  Let’s talk.  Let me tell you some stories about my drug use.  Let me tell you some stories about growing up and Three 6 Mafia and the whole Memphis scene, and what I went through and how things can turn up if you do the wrong drug or you overdose.’  I wish I could.”

On suspecting the late Notorious B.I.G. and Diddy of stealing his original stage name, ‘Notorious Juicy J,’ and his sample of Mtume’s Juicy Fruit on his early ‘90s mixtape:

“[Diddy] produced that track [for Biggie].  I don’t know.  I’m not saying that they did.  When you are a young person, because I was like 18 or 19, you are always going to think, ‘Someone is stealing my stuff.’ Even if that is not the case, because keep in mind that song was out before I created my [original] name (Notorious Juicy J). That song, (Mtume’s Juicy Fruit), had been pretty much out.  I just liked the song and thought, ‘My name is Juicy J and I’m going to scratch this song.’ When you are trying to create something you feel is yours and is your own, and you hear somebody do it, that’s why I took ‘Notorious’ off of my name. When I heard that I said, ‘Ugh, scratch Notorious. I’m just going by Juicy J.’”
 
“I’m just speaking my truth and how I felt when I was a young kid. But the older I got I thought, ‘Maybe I could be exaggerating.’  I will say this.  Memphis has a big sound.  We’ve been making noise since the early ‘90s. There are a lot of people that took certain things, which I don’t really care.  To me that is just petty, but it happens.  The Crunk music, a lot of people ran off with that, but whatever.  I look at things in life like if someone is going to take stuff from you, that means you are doing something good.  If they are going to steal a style or a flow, I can make another flow.  I’m super talented and can make another flow, another beat, or whatever.  But when I was young, I thought, ‘This N*gga is stealing my shit.’”
 
On how ABC executives treated Three 6 Mafia at the 2006 Oscars rehearsal and ceremony:

“A lot of people in Hollywood judged us. They judged the shit out of us though.  They looked at our lyrics, they thought about the name Three 6 Mafia, they called us “Devil Worshipers” when we were out there trying to rehearse [for the Oscars ceremony].  At the time, all of these people from ABC walked in, about 30 people, and everything we did, they wrote it down.  If we moved a microphone, they wrote that down. They were so nervous and they kept saying, ‘Don’t cuss. Don’t cuss.’ Even though we didn’t cuss, they still bleeped us out because they thought we cussed. We were professional. We came in ready to rock the house. We were the first rap group to ever perform at the Oscars, and we were super excited and focused. We didn’t come in all high and drugged up. All the producers behind the scenes were loving it.  They said, ‘You guys are really cool.  I thought you were going to be some crazy rap group coming in with guns out, but you guys are really professional and smart at this young age.”
 
On being snubbed by Black actors after winning an Oscar for Best Original Song in 2006:

​“I’m from Memphis and I’d been to California a little bit, but I’ve never been around actors like that, so I was thinking, ‘What the F? These people are hating on us like crazy.’  John Singleton even said to us, ‘You feel the hate?  Don’t worry about it.  They’re just mad because they don’t have one.’ I walked into the Vanity Fair party and there were just a lot of Black Actors and actresses giving us some mean mugs.”
 
“When I saw Will Smith, I said, ‘I grew up listening to your music. It’s such an honor to meet you.”  He put his hand up like “What the hell. Y’all got one before me?”  He could have been joking, but I didn’t take it that way because I’m thinking people are going to be saying, ‘Congratulations,’ but he didn’t say that. John Travolta walked up to me and said, ‘Congratulations.’  Steven Spielberg said, ‘Congratulations.’  George Clooney who had just won an Oscar said, ‘Congratulations.’ Nobody Black walked up to me and said, ‘Congratulations,’ that I can remember.  I thought, ‘Damn, this is weird.  Maybe this is what Hollywood is all about.’ .” I don’t let things get me down, because Three 6 Mafia, we were always against all odds.  We’ve always had doors slammed in our faces.  We always had people say, ‘Don’t mess with those guys.  They’re devil worshipers,’ and all that stuff.  I was used to it.”

On being drugged and robbed by a girlfriend in his twenties:

Juicy J: “I had this girlfriend of mine who set me up and drugged me. I had fallen asleep and I had never slept that long.  I felt like I blacked out, and I woke up and all my money was gone out of my pockets and my car, my tires were flat. I said, ‘Why is all my money gone?   I’m in your house, in your bedroom, and all my money is gone.’  She said she didn’t take my money, so I said, ‘Then who took my money?’”
 
“They didn’t slash my tires, they just let the air out. I didn’t understand. I didn’t get it.  I thought, ‘You are going to take all of my stuff, you are going to rob me, drug me and put my tires flat?’ That was ratchet.”
 
Allison Kugel: You always think of that happening to woman.  You don’t often think about something like that happening to men. 
 
Juicy J: “Yes, but it happens. Now, when I go to clubs and they bring me out some bottles, if anything is open, ever since then, I will never drink from an open bottle. They have to open the bottle in front of me, and then I’ll drink it. I’m always watching my drinks, watching my food. I’m on some paranoia, looking over my shoulder.  That taught me a lesson.”
 
On looking after his mental health and going to therapy:

“I believe in helping others to elevate, inspiring others and trying to help people stay out of trouble. I talk to a lot of young artists and young people and they ask me, ‘How did you manage to do this and that?’ Nothing is easy at all.  Just take care of your mental health.  That is the first thing we need to start with.  I talk about this in my book a lot.  You have to get that mental health right, because we all go through trauma and traumatic situations as kids growing up, and it affects us as adults. So pray a lot and talk to a therapist. I go to one. There is nothing wrong with that, and just try to stay focused.  It’s not about the money.  It’s not about the fame.  If you have a clear head, you can accomplish anything in life.” 
 
 
About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Watch and embed the entire interview video with Juicy J @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com.
 
SOURCE: ALLISON INTERVIEWS PODCAST

By Allison Kugel
 
 
Legendary NBA Point Guard, Tyrone “Muggsy” Bogues, represents more than the American Dream. He represents a universal truth and a promise to each of us that our dreams are only as far off as we allow them to be, and that the power of belief supersedes any ideas society may hold for what is possible in our lives.
 
Raised in the Lafayette Court Housing Projects in Baltimore, Muggsy witness poverty and violence during much of his early childhood, culminating with a gunshot wound he suffered at the age of five when he was hit with a stray buckshot. His father was incarcerated for much of his younger life as his mother struggled to make ends meet for he and his siblings.
 
Soon enough, the game of basketball beckoned, providing hope and structure for Bogues’s young life. His late mother and sister Sherron’s unwavering faith and encouragement in his athletic ability allowed him to shut out the naysayers who taunted him, both on and off the court, over his smaller 5’3” stature.
 
Muggsy studied the game and mastered his defensive moves and vertical jump (an impressive 44 inches off the ground). With his Dunbar High School basketball team becoming ranked the number one high school basketball team in the nation, Bogues rode that wave throughout his career-making plays at Wake Forest University, ultimately becoming the shortest player in history to get drafted into the NBA as the 12th overall draft pick in 1987.
 
After a season with the Washington Bullets, Bogues was traded to the Charlotte Hornets in 1988, where he would ultimately find his footing, helping to lead the Hornets to the playoffs for three consecutive seasons, and putting the franchise on the map alongside his teammates, Alonzo Mourning and Larry Johnson. It was with the Charlotte Hornets that Mogues also met lifelong friend, Dell Curry, during which he mentored Curry’s two sons, Stephen and Seth, who went on to play in the NBA. After nine years with the Charlotte Hornets, Bogues rounded out his career playing for the Golden State Warriors and Toronto Raptors, before retiring in 2001 after fourteen seasons in the NBA.
 
Now, at age 58, Bogues, a devoted husband, father and grandfather, spends time speaking and helping to run his Muggsy Bogues Family Foundation in his adopted home of Charlotte, North Carolina. The Foundation provides essential resources and educational opportunities to underserved communities in the area. His memoir, MUGGSY: My Life from a Kid in the Projects to the Godfather of Small Ball (Triumph Books), recounts his extraordinary life in vivid detail, providing an inspirational blueprint for beating the odds and living with passion and purpose.
 
 
Allison Kugel: What’s the difference between you and the tens of thousands of guys who loved playing basketball, loved the game, but thought, “I’m just not tall enough, so it’s not going to happen for me. Why bother?”
 
Muggsy Bogues: I think as a small guy, I accepted what I was and who I am in terms of how I need to play the game. I think a lot of us as undersized players, we play the game a little different. But some try to play the game like the bigger players. But I knew my best abilities and what came with [my size], in terms of making guys around you better, and being able to be an extension of the coach. It was about, defensively, just being a pest.  Make sure they have to work to get the basketball across the half court, because the Point Guard is the guy that really starts it all. If you can disrupt him and make it difficult on his behalf at the beginning, it gives you a better chance of being noticed and being out there. I understood the game. A lot of people didn’t really understand the IQ level I had on that basketball court, but my peers did. I think that separated me from a lot of the small Guards that tried to pursue this game and try to make it to the highest level, which is the NBA. 
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about the power of belief. I read your memoir (MUGGSY:  My Life from a Kid in the Projects to the Godfather of Small Ball, Triumph Books), and your childhood was no bed of roses. You had many challenges. You are one of those people who understood the Law of Attraction and the power of belief well before it was a part of our cultural zeitgeist. Where did that come from?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Growing up in the city of Baltimore, I think the trauma that I went through, being shot at [age] five was a part of it. When I used to go onto the basketball court and hear all the negative words, like, “You’re too small. Why are you pursuing this game?” It really had a major impact on my confidence. After that traumatic experience [of being shot], I didn’t think anything was devastating, and it definitely wasn’t words. It just gave me the confidence and the belief to pursue what I was dreaming, and what I believed in. Luckily, I met Mr. Leon Hardwick, who gave me the information on how to navigate [the basketball court], and how to play the game. Preparation then allowed me to continue to believe in myself, and gave me the confidence to not worry about my height. I just didn’t care what they thought. I let that negative energy go in one ear and out the other. I stayed on my path and on my journey, just believing what I wanted. I knew that if I can have confidence in myself it will rub off on others.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you know who the actor Michael Rappaport is?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Yes. He sent me his book (laugh). 
 
Allison Kugel: I love what he says about you. He was on The Rich Eisen Show talking to your former Charlotte Hornets teammate, Rex Chapman, about you and he said, “Muggsy Bogues is one of the iconic players. He’s 5’3” and he played in the league for I think 15 f*cking years. Why is Muggsy Bogues not doing TED Talks and motivational speaking? Because when you think of outside-the-line thinkers and someone with a powerful brain that overcame things, it’s Muggsy Bogues.”
 
Muggsy Bogues: I really appreciate him saying those kinds of words [about] me. It all comes from just believing, and as we talked about, believing in yourself. I make sure when I’m speaking to kids, and I do a lot of speaking engagements, I always want to let them know that it starts within. It starts with them. When you look at yourself in the mirror and don’t like that reflection, you really need to love it, because that is what God has created. We all get a special gift, and we all need to understand and hopefully find that special gift that God has created. I always tell the kids, and anyone I come into contact with, “It stars with you. It starts with confidence. If you don’t have it, it’s very difficult for anybody to believe in what is inside of you, and what you are trying to spill out.

Allison Kugel: Do you believe that we all plan our lifetime before we incarnate into this life? Do you subscribe to that at all?
 
Muggsy Bogues: In some ways, I think we do. Subconsciously, the things that we think and the things that we believe, we start taking actions behind them. Those actions lead to that thought or that subconscious seed that has been planted for you. I always believed in that and I always go with that, because that is something that you can’t second guess. God sees us before we have it and before we even think it. A lot of folks go to school and get good grades, and you get a job outside of what you go to school for. You wonder, why is that? It comes back to that thing that is set for you, that you have not even envisioned for yourself yet. 
 
Allison Kugel: Yes! I hear there were only two players in the league who you had trouble guarding. Do you know who I’m going to say?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Who? I’m curious…
 
Allison Kugel: It was actually Rex Chapman who said, “The only two players Muggsy had trouble guarding were Gary Payton and Magic Johnson.”  Is that true?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Magic was one of them. I’ll give it to Gary, too. Gary was a handful, because of the way he played the game. But it was more or less Magic, because Magic liked to pass and because of his size, at 6’9”.  I had the ability to play a bigger guard and plan well with his back toward the basketball, because normally they are not accustomed to playing that way. Magic was totally different. He had the ability to see guys in his peripheral [vision] from behind his head, and he caused me a lot of problems. And there were a lot of battles between Gary and I, so I can understand why Rex went with Gary as well. 
 
Allison Kugel: Your sister, Sherron, you credit her with introducing you to the game of basketball. Tell me about that. 
 
Muggsy Bogues: She was my biggest [supporter] and my older sister. She was small statured as well, and she was fearless. She played all sorts of sports. She played baseball and football, as well as basketball. By me being small and seeing her tenaciousness and her competitiveness, going out there and competing against the boys, it made me want to go out there and play, and be fearless as well. Seeing how she was having success out there gave me that feeling that if my sister can do it, I can do it. That is what really introduced me to basketball and made me want to get out there and pursue it. When I played, and when I continued to climb that ladder and play in college and the NBA, she was always at the games hollering for me behind the bench, “Shorty,  shoot the ball!” I loved her for that, because that is where you get your true criticism from, the ones that love you. 
 
Allison Kugel: During your time with the Charlotte Hornets, you and Dell Curry became as close as family, and your kids grew up together. You knew Seth and Steph Curry from the time they were toddlers.
 
Muggsy Bogues: Yes. Our families grew up with one another. It was the Currys and the Bogues.  Dell and I played eleven years with each other throughout my fourteen years in the NBA; nine in Charlotte and two in Toronto. Stephen and our kids grew up being around the game. Stephen and Seth were like little sponges, soaking up all that information. I recall a video they have of me giving Stephen a little airplane ride in our locker room when he was small. He was just such a joy, he and Seth, both. No one even knew they would turn out to be the type of players they are today, even in high school. They were so scrawny, skinny and small. They were compared to me. [At the time] they were just a little taller, but slender. No one even gave them the credit, but to see them now and see how they transformed, not only on the court, but off the court. I’m so proud of the both of them.
 
Alison Kugel: Did Stephen look up to you, because he saw you as also not having the typical stature of a basketball player? I read that he was only 5’6” in high school and with a narrow build. Did he look to you as an example of somebody who could succeed in the game, not having that traditional large player build? 
 
Muggsy Bogues: Yes, he did. He looked up to me early on. He had seen that a guy who was 5’3” was out there having success, and that is something he always hung his hat on. He always said that I was one of his favorite players, so that always gave me little chills, knowing that. For a kid like that to be around me for that length of time and seeing me able to navigate through all of the nonsense that was being said; it allowed him to see it firsthand. He always alluded to that. For him and Seth, both, to be able to not hear or believe that [negative] noise that they were hearing about themselves, and staying on that path, I’m just loving what I’m witnessing to this day. 

Allison Kugel: There is a moment between you and Michael Jordan during the 1995 playoffs that is talked about a lot. There are images of you trying to guard him and him taunting you by holding the ball up high so you couldn’t get it. He’s trash talking you and all of that stuff. Do you think he was actually thrown off his game, because he couldn’t play the way he would normally play when he was playing against you?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Absolutely. That is exactly right, and that is why Michael, as you listen to one of his interviews, he says he always had trouble playing against the smaller guys like myself, Damon Stoudamire, Allen Iverson, and Rod Strickland, because when you are smaller the ball is closer to you. When the guy is dribbling the basketball, they have to dribble on the ground. Having that understanding, I understood how to play close to the ground and how to affect them down low; how to make them think about their dribbles because that is where it all starts. I used to time the guys’ dribbles, because once the ball goes down, they can’t stop it. That is when I used to shoot the gap and steal it quite a bit. That wears them down, and it’s like, “Man, he’s a pest.” When you play against the best and you have success against the best, then you will now be included with the best. 
 
Allison Kugel: Then in 1996, you were cast in Michael’s now classic movie, Space Jam.  There were only five other NBA players cast opposite Michael in that movie. Did he do the casting, or was it a production decision to put you in the movie?
 
Muggsy Bogues: We all had the same agent. Myself, Patrick Ewing, Michael, as well as Shawn Bradley. David Falk was our agent. Believe it or not, I had surgery during the shooting of the movie. I didn’t think I was going to be in it, but they had me come and read my lines anyway, and I think they had Tim Hardaway in mind as well. You can see me kind of acting like I was walking, and they had me where my shoulders were just moving and they made it look like I was walking.
 
Allison Kugel: Are there any guys in the league you wish you could have had the experience of being on the same team with, but never had the opportunity?
 
Muggsy Bogues: I think a guy like Michael [Jordan]. I would have loved to play with Michael as a teammate.  Having him on that wing, and his ability, and all the things he could do. That would have been fun for me. 
 
Allison Kugel: I’m assuming your relationship with him kind of smoothed over as time went on?
 
Muggsy Bogues: It has always been a great relationship. We never had it where it took a dive in terms of the negativity. We have always been pretty good friends and competitors, going all the way back from college days. 
 
Allison Kugel: You have a very unique situation, because you married your wife, Kim, twice. What’s different the second time around? 
 
Muggsy Bogues: I’m smarter the second time around. We were young when me got married the first time. I was 24 and she was 22. We had our first kid, and then my oldest daughter had moved in with us, and then we had my son. Suddenly, we had three kids and it was like she was thrust upon three kids within one year, and that was a challenge for us. I always loved her. She is the mother of my kids, and it’s very fortunate for us to be able to do it the second time with the same person, and to be able to do it again and do it the right way. This is more special, and especially for the kids, that we found our way back to one another. It makes the family that much more whole. I’m grateful that I have a second opportunity with her, because that’s how it should always be when you walk down the aisle and give that testimony to the man upstairs.  

Allison Kugel: Would you say the wife of an NBA player is a difficult life? 
 
Muggsy Bogues: It’s a challenge on both parts. For the woman, because they are the ones at home taking care of the kids and keeping the home. And for the person that is on the road, it comes back to a trust factor and understanding that even when we are apart, we are still together.  Hopefully temptations don’t lead you down the wrong path and the flesh doesn’t get more beyond where the mind should be, about what’s at home. Even though you are separated, you have to have that mindset and that trust factor that your partner is trusting you as well as you are trusting them to maintain that connection that you share with one another. Again, it’s tough, especially when you are around it. As athletes, so many things are thrown upon you and you have to be strong enough to know that it is a waste of time more than anything, and it’s not that serious to be throwing away what is so important that you have at home. 
 
Allison Kugel: When a movie is made one day about your life, which I suspect that it will be at some point, what do you hope and pray they get right?
 
Muggsy Bogues: How humble and appreciative I am in terms of the help I got along the way, and the confidence I have within. It’s not being cocky or egotistical. It is just being confident and believing that anything is possible with what you set your mind to. No one has the ability to make a change or a difference in your life, besides yourself.  Like I tell my kids, “You can do what you want to do. You can be who you want to be, and the only person stopping me is me.”  That does resonate with them, and that is something I always believed in, because no one has any power over me. I didn’t give them that power. I don’t care what they are saying or what they believe. A lot of folks try to spill their negativity they have for themselves onto you. I don’t give anybody that power, so hopefully they get right in a movie [about me], knowing that I was a confident kid, I didn’t care what anybody thinks, and I saw it all the way through. 
 
Allison Kugel: Have you ever had an idea of who should play you? 
 
Muggsy Bogues: I haven’t thought of any guys out there, because it’s hard to find someone as small that plays basketball…. I always say Kevin Hart, but Kevin Hart is too dark. 
 
Allison Kugel: It would have to be an unknown, maybe. 
 
Muggsy Bogues: Or maybe that little kid from [Amazon ‘s] The Underground Railroad, Chase Dillon. Maybe he could pull it off. 
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about The Muggsy Bogues Family Foundation.  Is it run by your daughter Brittney?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Well, she is the Vice President. I have an Executive Director as well and, of course, board members and so forth. It is something that we are so passionate about. to be able to serve the Charlotte [, North Carolina] community. Our vision is to empower the underserved and youth to live a better quality of life, due to food security, education and workforce development.  We also have a scholarship program where we have partnered with CPCC here in Charlotte. They oversee our scholarship for kids to go to a trade school, for kids that have ambition in that industry to further their careers. I know a lot of people focus on the four-year universities, but I wanted to focus on trade-bound schools where kids can go right to work and be job-ready after they are finished, and debt free. They pay great salaries in these types of fields and I just wanted to bring some attention to that and give them the opportunity to where they can benefit themselves as well as their families.

Allison Kugel: Is there anything quirky about you that people would be surprised to learn? Do you have any unusual superstitions or habits?
 
Muggsy Bogues: I don’t do anything out of the ordinary.  I’m just so simple.  I’m just a guy that loves playing golf and comes home. We travel. I love eating Twizzlers. I love my candy. Sometimes I have my cocktail and I’ll take my Twizzler and use it a straw. So there’s something (laughs).
 
Allison Kugel:  What do you think you came into this life as Muggsy Bogues to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Muggsy Bogues: I came here to learn how the world operates and how people are all different in their own ways. I came into the world to teach people that we all could be different, but at the same time, not be hateful and not be divisive. We can all get along as we accomplish all we chose to accomplish, once we believe within ourselves. Hopefully, during my time on this earth I can display those characteristics and affect people where they can see that we treat everybody the same; regardless of the color of our skin, or who we are, what size we are, or what gender we are. 
 
Allison Kugel: Would you say you are a living, breathing example that anything is possible?
 
Muggsy Bogues: Absolutely, one thousand percent. I know I went against the odds and against the grain, being the smallest to ever do it. It’s all because of the man upstairs and understanding His faith and guidance, being a testament of Him, and having the confidence that you can be whoever you want. 
 
 
Learn more about the Muggsy Bogues Family Foundation at boguesfoundation.org. Visit muggsybogues.com and follow on Instagram @therealmuggsy.
 
Watch or listen to the extended Muggsy Bogues interview on the Allison Interviews Podcast at Apple, Spotify, or on YouTube.

By Allison Kugel
 
Oscar De La Hoya charmed the world when, at eighteen, he took home the gold medal from the 1992 Olympics, launching his professional boxing career and earning him his famous moniker, The Golden Boy. He went on to win ten world championships across six different weight divisions making him one of the most celebrated professional fighters in the sport’s storied history. The impoverished young boy from East Los Angeles had arrived, and the city made him their hometown hero, eventually erecting a statue in his honor in 2008 (created by Erik Blome) which sits on the grounds of the Crypto.com arena.
 
De La Hoya launched his Oscar De La Hoya Foundation, giving back to the residents of East LA, and furthering his Golden Boy image.
 
Internally, De La Hoya was feeling crippled from a childhood filled with trauma and abuse, and cracks in his well-crafted image began to show. In the early 2000s, he walked away from his ex-partner, model and media personality Shanna Moakler and their then young daughter, Atiana De La Hoya. His two other now-adult children, Jacob and Devon, suffered the same fate with an absent De La Hoya during their upbringings. Problems compounded when a burned out De La Hoya all but threw a fight against Manny Pacquiao after eight painful rounds, marking the beginning of the end of his boxing career.
 
Substance abuse and questionable romantic entanglements followed, as did scandal and multiple lawsuits. The former boxing champ eventually rebounded with Golden Boy Promotions, De La Hoya’s national boxing promotion company, which promotes some of the biggest and highest grossing events in the sport of boxing.
 
I sat down with Oscar De La Hoya to unpack his life and career, which has been filled with iconic highs and devastating lows, and to learn about where he is now after years of healing and mending his personal relationships.
 
Allison Kugel: When I was telling my team about our interview, one of them said, “Oh, he’s a somebody!” My first reaction was, “Yes, he is!” Then I thought about what makes someone a “somebody.” Is it how much money you have? How popular you are? How many people will show up to your funeral? Or is it really how many people you have in your life who love you, not because of what you can give them or what you’ve achieved, but simply because of who you are? Does that resonate with you?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Oh, yes. We are all somebody, right?  It’s funny you say that, because I was always somebody when I was at the height of my career; when I won the Olympics, when I got back from the Olympics and won world [boxing] titles. I felt like I was somebody to everybody.  Everybody knew who I was. Everybody knew The Golden Boy Oscar, the Gold Medalist, the World Champion.  And now that I’m going through this process of finding myself, I don’t need that validation anymore. I’m somebody to someone who loves me.  I’m somebody to someone who really cares for me and wants to make time to know me, so that is what I care about now.  I’m no longer just somebody because I’m “The Golden Boy.”

​Allison Kugel: Right. I feel like in your documentary film (The Golden Boy, out July 24th on HBO and MAX streaming), when you were talking about your life from childhood and then through the height of your boxing career, that was all you wanted.  You wanted someone to say, “I love you.  I see you. I hear you. You’re important to me because you are you.”
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Yes, and all these years I was just going through the motions. I was training, fighting, making appearances, having meetings, getting pulled left and right, traveling. I just never had the chance to say, “Hello! I’m right here. Do you know who I really am? Do you care to even know?” The years go by so fast when you are living that moment every single day,  every single minute of my life. I was always surrounded by people, all the time. A lot of times I was surrounded by people I didn’t even know, and so what people have to realize is that when you are by yourself and you have those thoughts in your head, and people are not pulling you left and right, and you’re not “The Golden Boy,” then who are you? After I retired from boxing I kind of lost myself. I lost my identity. I lost who I was. I was this [mentally and physically] conditioned kid at six years old who had to be the champion of the world for everybody. 
 
Allison Kugel: In the beginning of the documentary there is footage of you as a six-year-old boy in a boxing ring, fighting in amateur fights that your father had you boxing in. Was that your normal at that age, since you didn’t know any different?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: It became normal, because that is exactly what I had to do. That is what my father forced me to do. At that age when I won my first fight at six years old, my life changed.  I remember when I was like ten, eleven years old feeling like my family was changing towards me. Now I’ve become this commodity. Like, “If I help little Oscar right now as a kid and buy him some boxing gloves or little hand wraps, maybe he will remember, and he can help me out when he’s older and has money.” I felt like that my whole life.
 
Allison Kugel: Wow! Do you have anyone in your life, now, who tells you they love you and that they are proud of you? I hope you do.
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Yes, my girlfriend (fitness model, Holly Sonders).  She is my one person who tells me that, and she is my best friend. She tells me all the time, “My gosh, you’re doing great. You’re good.  You’re a great person.  I’m proud of you.”  There is a part of me that thinks, “Wait, why are you telling me this? Are you sure?” It’s that kid coming out, because I was conditioned so much. It wasn’t love back then. It was just like, “Okay, Oscar is the ‘chosen one.’ Let’s see what we can get out of it.”
 
Allison Kugel: It’s crazy that it was prophetic in a way. Your father said to you, “You’re the one. You’re going to take us out of these circumstances.”  What is crazy about it is, you did become extraordinarily wealthy, and you did, in fact, give back to the people of East LA. That’s a lot to put on a kid, but at the same time he was right.
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Exactly. It is very strange, and it’s those exact demons and confusion that I had to fight with all the time.  My life has been so confusing because nobody gave me a handbook after I won the Gold Medal at 18 years old. No one gave me a handbook and said, “This is what your life is going to be, and these are the correct decisions to make. This is right from wrong.” Nobody ever explained to me what life is all about. I never had my mother sit me down, or my father, and tell me, “Son, this is going to happen in life.” I never had that. I had to learn along the way.
 
Allison Kugel: How old were you when you got your first $20 million check?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: I was about 22…
 
Allison Kugel: So, you’re 22, learning along the way, and you are given this huge sum of money and no instructions on how to navigate it all. 
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Right, and all I want to do is just have fun. 
 
Allison Kugel: Of course (laugh)!
 
Oscar De La Hoya: People who were around me said, “Let’s travel. Let’s do this.” It was all reckless, and I’m just very fortunate I’m still alive. I think I’ve thought about committing suicide three times. I’ve been depressed 10 times over the course of my life. Luckily, I did have boxing as an outlet. The ring was my safe place, believe it or not. Getting hit, punching someone, was my safe place. That is how much the struggle was outside of the ring.
 
Allison Kugel: Was it that you were in the zone when you were boxing, like everything else went away? Or was it a way to get the anger and the rage out?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: It was a way to get the anger and the rage out. I remember picturing my mom’s face in my opponents, and literally just getting angry. That is how bad it was at one point, and I’m lucky that I was able to manage it and kind of control it just inside the ring, to have it inside the ring and not outside of the ring, because who knows what I would have done. 
 
Allison Kugel: I interviewed Mike Tyson years ago and he said, “I came to the conclusion at a young age that I couldn’t be the best and be happy. So, I chose to be the best and to sacrifice my own happiness.” Do you agree with that statement?
 
Oscar De La Hoya:  I do agree with it now, but I didn’t realize what was happening as I was becoming this World Champion. As I was winning, I didn’t realize why I was winning.  I didn’t understand why I had all this anger. It was all just normal. I was abused at home, physically and emotionally, but I just kept living my life. I would go to school as a kid, and I was always the quiet one. I was the shy one, and the kid who never had money. I was always made fun of.  Boxing, for a strange reason, was my happy place.  It was where I can get beat up and hit you back.  Psychologically, it kind of screwed with me, but I never thought that I was unhappy. It was so normal to be who I was as a kid.
 
Allison Kugel: I want to talk about fatherhood. Your three older kids were interviewed in this documentary. Your first child, Atiana, who you had with Shanna Moakler, what was it about fatherhood that spooked you to the point where you said, “I’m going to give this over to Shanna and Travis Barker (Moakler’s ex-husband), and I’m just going to kind of divorce myself from this situation? What happened there?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: I basically ran away. I was scared. I was fearful. I did try to be a father full time for a few years, and it was beautiful. It was amazing to raise a little girl, but there came a point where you say to yourself, “Wait a minute. You’re not worthy of this.”  You convince yourself that you are not worthy of that love, that it is not possible in your life, because of not receiving that love when I was a kid. My father never told me, “I love you.”  My mother never told me she loved me.  She never really gave me a hug.  When I would cry, she would start hitting me. That is how bad it was. 
 
Allison Kugel: Did she give you, “I’ll give you something to cry about?”
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Oh, I got that all the time. I know I can be a father, but it comes to the point where you convince yourself that this is not you.  This is scary.  You are not worthy of this.  You are not worthy of giving love. Then you start feeling sorry for yourself. Life starts just spiraling and you’re lost. All you want to do is drink and do drugs and escape. Luckily for me, when I was boxing, it kept me in line. I didn’t drink until my last fight with Manny Pacquiao. That’s when I knew it was all over and I started drinking. I always felt like I wasn’t worthy of anything, like I wasn’t worthy of love, and I wasn’t worthy enough to do the job. 
 
Allison Kugel: Have you forgiven your dad for the lack of a conventional childhood? Where are you with that?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: I will start with my mother, because she passed in 1991. A few years ago I went to my mom’s grave and I had this big old ten page letter. I go to her grave and I start crying. The first words from my mouth were, “I f*cking hate you.”  I was so emotional about what she did to me and the love she didn’t give me. But, at the end I was just so compassionate, and I said, “Mom, thank you and I love you.” I felt so free. With my father, he is still alive.  He is still a hard a*s. He still is who he is. You saw him in the film (laugh).  It’s funny because all these recent years I’ve been wanting to tell my father, “I love you,” but I just couldn’t do it. I didn’t know how to do it. I would play it in my head, and I always thought he would say, “What the hell are you talking about? What are you telling me you love me for?  We are men.  We are macho.”  I remember one day a few years ago going up to him and saying, “You know what, dad? I love you.”  I hugged him and he told me back, “I love you,” and started crying.  In my head, I thought he was going to punch me. It was the opposite. So, I freed myself from my father. Now, I understand that is how he grew up and what he learned. I’m not going to be that person, so I’m fee from my past demons. I had to do a lot of therapy. I went through rehab; I don’t know how many times. Maybe because I didn’t belong there, or I did belong there, but I did it and all that work gives you the courage to just be yourself.  

Allison Kugel: The ongoing media narrative throughout your boxing career was that you won the gold medal at the 1992 Olympics because it was your mother’s dying wish…
 
Oscar De La Hoya: That was all a lie.
 
Allison Kugel: Who manufactured that narrative?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: It just happened. I remember when I won the Gold Medal. I was on the podium and the National Anthem was playing, and I was just numb. I couldn’t cry. I couldn’t laugh. I couldn’t smile. I was just picturing [my mother’s] face, just numb. I got out of the ring and the commentator asked me, “How do you feel, doing it for your mom?” That’s when it took off. I was this shy kid from East LA. I don’t know how to act in front of the camera. I don’t know what to say, so you just go with it. It becomes overwhelming, and now that everyone is saying it, you don’t want to say, “Wait a minute, I didn’t say that.”  You don’t want to disappoint people.
 
Allison Kugel: Since you struggled with your mental health and with substance abuse, do you try to stay on top of the mental and overall well-being of the fighters that your company, Golden Boy Promotions, represents?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: Of course. And I give help to the fighters who ask for it. I think we are living in a different time, and it’s a whole new generation where there is more compassion and more love in the household, but when you are a fighter and you are winning tournaments and being put on that pedestal, you have that pressure on you. I can imagine what they are going through, so if you ask me for help, I’m going to be more than happy to help you out and give you my experience and my take on what I lived through, but you only have to ask for it. I can’t force it upon you. I can’t come in and say, “I lived this, and I lived that, so therefore you should live by this too.”  The way it works is, you have to ask for it yourself, and that is exactly what I did. I’m 50 years old and I finally asked for help. It’s never too late.
 
Allison Kugel: Because it was in the film, I want to ask you about some of the sexual assault lawsuits that came your way. It doesn’t seem to jive with the person that I’m looking at right now. Was it not being queued into someone else’s body language, or how they are feeling, like their nonverbal ques? Because you were living so high, were you just not thinking about the other person’s responses to your actions, per se, even though it wasn’t your intention to assault anyone? What was going on there?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: No. First of all, I would never hurt a fly. That is just who I am, but I think that  I put myself in situations where I was vulnerable.  For instance, you have this kid.  Young, money, he’s outgoing, this and that. I put myself in situations where people thought, “Shit, I could take advantage of this kid.” I’m not that person. It is just not me, but if you put yourself in that situation, someone is bound to take advantage of you. Someone is bound to take advantage of that situation, of that kid who is naïve and young, who has money, and that is exactly what happened. I’ve never laid my hands on anybody. I would never, ever do that.  I would never mistreat anyone. It is just not in my nature or how I grew up. I didn’t see that in my household. My father and mother had a distant relationship, but it was never abusive. It was never physical, so I never grew up with that. On the contrary, it’s like all I needed was love. All I needed was a hug, so all of these accusations, or whatever, is all they were.  Accusations.
 
Allison Kugel: Are you saying you were targeted, financially?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: That was the goal, I would assume. I would assume that was the goal, but there is a reason why things were dropped, or things were dropped by the system. There are reasons for that. Anyone who knows me, knows that would never, ever be me.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you pray? And, if so, who or what do you pray to?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: I used to pray a lot. I still believe in my God as my higher power, but now that I’m in this state of mind for the past few years, at peace with myself and I’ve done all the work and continue to do the work, I don’t find myself praying like I used to pray.  Now, I reassure myself, “Today is going to be a great day! You are a good person. You work hard. Go just be a good guy.” There really isn’t that much praying like before. Before, when I was lost, it was like, “Please, please I need your help!”  and nothing happened. Now, I wake up every single morning and my girlfriend knows that I take my time for myself when I wake up. I say to myself, “Okay, just be you.” That has been working for me. The balance in my life now has been incredible. 
 
Allison Kugel: I know you’ve mastered boxing, but beyond that, what have you mastered in your life, and what remains a work in progress?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: I think life is a big old work in progress. I play a lot of golf, and in golf you can never master the game. It’s impossible. If you shoot a low score, you can always shoot lower.  Even Tiger Woods could never master the game. You can always get better. You can always shoot a better score, and I think life is like that. Even if you are on top of the mountain, there is always something you can work on. Life is all about growing, learning, and becoming better and good with yourself. I’m always searching to find peace, every single day. 
 
Allison Kugel: Any final words of wisdom to share?
 
Oscar De La Hoya: I’m very fortunate to be alive, because it could have ended quickly and easy at any point in my life. My number one rule that people should consider is to put yourself first.  I think back when I was pleasing everyone else, and how kids today want to please their school mates.  They have the pressure of being cool. Make yourself happy first, and then everything else will unfold and everything else is manageable and a bit easier to handle. You have to really sit down with yourself and ask yourself some tough questions. It’s all about communication.
 
 
Oscar De La Hoya’s two-part documentary film, The Golden Boy, premieres July 24th at 9pm ET/PT on HBO and streaming on MAX. Image courtesy of HBO and MAX.
 
Watch or listen to the extended Oscar De La Hoya interview on the Allison Interviews Podcast at Apple, Spotify, or on YouTube.

By Allison Kugel
 
Grammy Winning artist Donna Summer was dubbed “Queen of Disco” throughout the 1970s and into the 1980s as Summer brought a new era of popular music and once in a generation charisma to a world stage. Her chart topping hits are many, and millions of fans have timeless memories made to her countless hits, including: Love To Love You Baby, Bad Girls, On The Radio, This Time I Know It’s For Real, Last Dance, Hot Stuff, MacArthur Park and She Works Hard For The Money.
 
Donna Summer’s extensive music catalog is a phenomenon. It’ also a cultural soundtrack that transcends time; infused with emotion, light and love. Her passing in 2012 from lung cancer was devasting to a generation who came of age right along with her.
 
Now Summer’s daughter, actress and filmmaker Brooklyn Sudano, teamed up with Academy Award winning filmmaker Roger Ross Williams and HBO to bring the world a deep and poignant documentary about the singer’s musical career and her life away from the cameras, titled, Love To Love You, Donna Summer, now streaming on MAX (formerly HBOMAX).
 
I had a chance to sit down with Brooklyn Sudano to discuss her mother, Donna Summer. Sudano and co-director, Roger Ross Williams do a brilliant job throughout the film of portraying who Donna Summer was as an artist, and mother, wife and human being. Throughout the film and in this interview, audiences catch a glimpse of a woman many loved, but few truly knew. This is the complex and storied life, and iconic music career of Donna Summer that continues to live on.
 
Allison Kugel: What was your intention in creating this documentary about your mom?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I became a mom, and I didn’t have my mom, and so it brought up a lot of feelings and questions. I was a working mother, and so I thought, “I wonder what she would have done in this situation?” or “what did she do?” And I couldn’t ask her. Also, people and fans would come up to me and they would share their personal stories and their own memories with my mother or a particular song or album. I felt there was so much that people didn’t really know about her or fully understand. Even for the fans who loved her so deeply, I felt maybe they needed their own sense of closure to her life and her story.
 
Allison Kugel: The title of the film, Love to Love You: Donna Summer, is based on her breakout song, Love to Love You Baby, which really launched her as an artist. I had never heard the original cut of that song until I watched this film. I’ve heard the radio edit of the song and then I watched the documentary and thought, “Ooooh, okay.”  It’s very sexual.
 
Brooklyn Sudano:  I’ll say… provocative (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Very Provocative. As her daughter, how does that hit?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I think it depends at what age you asked me that question. When I first discovered that song in the film, there was that moment of me going to my younger sister Amanda and saying, “Oh my gosh, do I have a crazy song for you!” We would go to my mom’s shows when we were younger, and she didn’t perform that song on stage anymore. So, it was really a whole revelation in terms of who she was to us in our own minds at that point. I think as we have gotten older, I think we understand the door that it opened for her, and she understood that this was going to be her entrée onto the world stage, and so she owned it.  I think in so many ways it was very empowering to so many people to see and witness a woman, particularly a Black woman, be on stage and just own her own power. It was groundbreaking for the time. In terms of using that song as the title, obviously there is that Love To Love You [song] connection, but we also wanted it to feel like a love letter in a sense; Love to Love You: Donna Summer.
 
Allison Kugel: The video clip of your mother singing, If There is Music There,  later on in her career, I cried like a baby watching that. Your mother, Donna Summer, is one of the few singers who really embodied the character and the story of the song she was singing.  She didn’t just sing the song. She became the song. 
 
Brooklyn Sudano: That is a perfect way to put it. She became the songs. I think that was really what set her apart. That’s why her music transcends decades and generations; it’s because of that very fact. I think that was one of her real gifts, was to really take each song individually and come from that emotional place to connect with her audiences. I think that is why her music transcends. 
 
Allison Kugel: What did you learn from your mother that you now use as a mother to your own children?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: One of the biggest things is to obviously give warmth and love, but also she very much included us in her creativity and in her art. I try to do that with my kids. They are their own little artists, actors, and singers. I encourage that, and make them a part of my process. My mom would take my sisters and I on the road with her and we would work backstage. We had a real understanding of behind the camera, in front of the camera, on stage and backstage. 

​Allison Kugel: We all have that moment when we realize our mom has a first name other than “Mommy.” I would imagine that for you or somebody in your shoes, you have this moment when you realize your mom has a name and that she’s a person. And then I’m sure you had another moment when you realized she was Donna Summer and everybody in the world knew who she was. What was your first awakening to that fact?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I think it was just the understanding that there were always people around us or coming up to us. I remember that from a very young age people we didn’t know would come up and love on us and share their stories and know who my mother was. I didn’t know a time when that didn’t exist. 
 
Allison Kugel: Did you just think, “My mom is really popular. She has so many friends.”? (Laughs)
 
Brooklyn Sudano: (Laughs) Maybe that moment of realization came when I was about seven or eight years old. We went to go see Michael Jackson at Wembley Stadium, and it was that moment she got to take us backstage to meet him. At that time, he was at the pinnacle of his career. It was a sudden understating of, like, “Oh, my mom can do this!” I think it might have been that moment where it really hit home and I thought, “Wow, she has a lot of access. People treat her a little differently.” I got to dance on stage with Michael Jackson in the pouring rain at Wembley Stadium and Sheryl Crow was back up for him at the time. It was one of the most memorable, remarkable moments of my life, of feeling all of that positive joyful energy coming across. So yeah, that was pretty cool.
 
Allison Kugel: Tell me about your parent’s love story.
 
Brooklyn Sudano: As my dad says in the film, “From the moment we met, we basically were together.” I think that both of my parents are artists by nature. They saw in each other that need to create, and they connected on that level. They also had this very deep bond. My parents were married for thirty-two years when my mom passed away, and when they first got together, no one thought they would last.  
 
Allison Kugel: Why did nobody think they would last?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: It was a few things. They both had strong personalities. They both were extremely driven. It was also an interracial relationship [in the ‘70s]. Also, the relationship had so much visibility. I think there was that dynamic where people thought that under the pressure, it was not going to last. The things that bonded them together were that they both had a very strong sense of faith and God and in family. They both loved to create, and they did that well with each other. They were very symbiotic in the way they wrote songs together, and they had a very deep love that translated through all the trials and tribulations they came across. 
 
Allison Kugel: In the documentary, when your mom was diagnosed with lung cancer, she was not a complainer. She did not want her illness to take center stage and she didn’t even really want it to be a thing. She didn’t want to address the elephant in the room. That is kind of how it was portrayed. On the day-to-day, at home with family, what was the process she went through in dealing with her diagnosis?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: My mother was extremely strong as a person. I think her decision not to share [her diagnosis] with the world was that she was a woman of faith, and she really believed that God was going to heal her. She wanted to put all the positive energy out there for that and only wanted people around her that would give her that energy. When you are in the public eye you end of carrying a lot of people’s emotions for them. She didn’t think she could carry other people’s fear about her illness or their expectations of what it would look like. She just really wanted the time to focus on herself and her family. I think she tried to just walk that out. I was kind of right in the middle of it with her, my dad, and my aunt, and trying to be there day to day. I had her eat healthy and do all the things for her to have those moments where she could feel the best she could under those circumstances, and she was a trooper; one of the strongest people I’ve ever known. Even the doctor said, “Any other person would be in the hospital now.” My mom never ended up in the hospital. She just had a strength and a will that was beyond anybody that I’ve ever experienced before and she passed at home in Naples, Florida.
 
Allison Kugel: Was there a moment where she thought, “Okay, this is happening, this is it, it’s my time.”?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: She never verbalized that. I think there was a moment where I could see her wrestling with it internally, but we didn’t talk about it. She fought until the end. 
 
Allison Kugel: She also had a precedent setting lawsuit where she sued her original label, Casablanca Records for her publishing rights before moving to Geffen Records.
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I don’t think it was about the publishing, specifically. I think it was more a contractual obligation, than the publishing. We thought about unpacking that whole thing within the film and it was just very weedy in terms of the legalese of it all. She just wanted to be out of her contract, and I think there were some changes at the label. She sued to get out of it and to be able to move forward in the way she thought she wanted her career to move forward. It was at the peak of her career, so it was a really big risk for her to take. Neil Bogart, and the whole team at Casablanca [Records], at that time where really like family to her. It was a really difficult time for her because she was so close to them. Thankfully, we have all mended bridges and she was able to mend bridges with them as well. We are on great terms with them at this point. I will say that my mom had a lot of forgiveness and a lot of love for people involved in her life. 
 
Allison Kugel: Why do you think she described the music business as “being raped over and over again?”
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I think when you are an artist, you are naturally sensitive. You’re in tune with the world in a way that maybe not everybody is. I think that is what makes you aware and able to articulate things in a way that maybe most people don’t. The music business is a business.  It can be cutthroat and be about money and power, and all the things that drive an industry.  A lot of times it is at odds with the sensitivity of an artist and their need to grow. I think that was one of the biggest challenges during her time at Casablanca [Records]. It was that she wanted to be an artist in a different way than they wanted her to be. She wanted to grow and write more of her music, which she did, and be a little more in control of her own destiny. I think that is what she was articulating.  

​Allison Kugel: There was another controversy that happened during her life. She became very passionate about giving her life over to Christ, she became a born-again Christian, and she made a comment about God making Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve.
 
Brooklyn Sudano: My mom did a lot of schtick on stage and it was part of an off-hand comment that was intended to be funny and it was not received that way.
 
Allison Kugel: Okay. It was a bad attempt at a joke and wasn’t meant to be taken as her literal belief system…
 
Brooklyn Sudano: No, and I think part of the reason why we talk a little bit about it in the film was that my parents didn’t address it [at the time], because the intent was not meant to be hurtful, but obviously many people were hurt by it. We wanted to acknowledge that, but the way that it snowballed and all the things that people said about her and how she felt about the LGBTQ+ community was the complete antithesis of who she was. I think that was where a lot of her internal conflict happened. My lived experience was not that controversy. We had so many people from that community as part of our daily lives and such a big part of her fanbase. So, I always experienced it as a lovefest and joy, and so it was tricky going back to that. I think as a family we wanted to acknowledge that it hurt people, but that was not who she was. We hope with the film as a whole, that it is about acknowledging and healing. That is why we thought it was important to include it. I also think times where changing and it all kind of got lumped together. People started talking and the rumor mill happened. She was kind of caught in a changing time about what you could say and what you couldn’t. 
 
Allison Kugel: I wonder how she would feel about the cancel culture of today…
 
Brooklyn Sudano: It was a little bit of that. It is a little bit of what we are experiencing present day in terms of cancel culture, and I think she felt the brunt of that. She was always spiritual, but then as a Christian, it was assumed that she must mean this or that when she said that. It got to be a whole mess. It was really unfortunate, because she was somebody who lived her life with love, hands down. 
 
Allison Kugel: That came through in the film, one hundred percent.
 
Brooklyn Sudano: That is what she wanted to project. Every single person I talked to for this [film], and I talked to many people from all parts of her life, had nothing but love. Even if they had a complicated relationship with her, they loved my mother deeply and felt deeply loved by her. That was who she was, and the hardest part of that situation was that people would question her integrity in that way. 
 
Allison Kugel: And you co-directed this film with Roger Ross Williams, who is an Academy Award Winning Director. Was it you who approached him?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I came to the conclusion after a period of time that I wanted to direct this film, but I also hadn’t [directed] before. I had been an actress for many years, but this was my first feature and my first documentary. I had been a fan of Roger’s work. I got a sense that he understood family and he understood emotion, and how to tell that story with a lot of honesty. I knew his work, and I had met one of his long-time producers in the process. She came on board as our producer and connected Roger and me. When we sat down for lunch and discussed whether this was something we could do together, his vision and my vision were the same. He was probably a little reluctant, thinking, “This is the daughter of. Is she going to want to do some kind of sanitized sugarcoated version of her mother.”  I didn’t. I really wanted to tell the truth and for that honesty to come through, and he knew how to tell those kinds of stories. 
 
Allison Kugel: Before your mother met your father (music producer and songwriter, Bruce Sudano), she had been in a relationship where she was the victim of domestic abuse, which never made it into the news at the time.
 
Brooklyn Sudano: No, I don’t think anyone in the public would have known. My mother was a very private person. She was very open in many ways in sharing her [musical] gift and being very grounded and down to earth with people and gracious, but she was an extremely private person. I think it was important for us to share that part of her story, because it’s a part of what made her human. Those trials and tribulations she had to overcome just show you how amazing it was that she was able to achieve this pinnacle of success and survive it all. Hopefully it was a message to many other women that you don’t have to stay in that situation; that you can move on from it and have a successful life and a successful future relationship.  

​Allison Kugel: Do you have any rituals for when you feel your mom’s presence or when you really miss her?  Is there anything in particular that makes you feel closer to her?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: It’s not necessarily a ritual, but more of an acknowledgement like, “Hi, mom.” I really feel almost now more than ever that wherever she is, it’s not far. She is right here (gesturing towards her shoulder) with me. I live my life and operate in a way where I acknowledge that she is that close to me. There were many moments during this filmmaking process, and over the years, where something will happen and I say, “Okay. Here she is.” Roger and I would make a joke that she was the one directing this documentary (laugh). There were so many divine little moments and things that would happen to let us know that she was happy with what was happening. 
 
Allison Kugel: Were there signs you would get from her?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: Obviously, her music follows me everywhere. I would show up somewhere and there was a song playing. I would think, “Okay, I know I’m supposed to be here in this particular moment.” She passed away on May 17th. We had been working on this film for so many years and when HBO gave us our air date and our air week, it was the same week as her passing. Another sign was when my hairstylist on the day of the premiere for the film started singing, “Someone to watch over me...” I asked her why she was singing that song, and she said, “I don’t know. I don’t even know why I have that song in my head.” I said, “My mom would perform that song on stage as one of her standards that she would sing, and that was part of her set for many, many years.”  It was a little wink from her, like, “Hi. I’m right here with you. I see you.”
 
Allison Kugel: What do you feel you have mastered in your life at this point, and what remains a work in progress for you?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I think that life is a journey. When I was younger, I would be looking more for destinations. Now I’m much more content in my journey and knowing there is an ebb and a flow, and peaks and valleys, and they are all valid and useful to our growth. 
 
Allison Kugel: And what remains a stumbling block for you?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: I used to be someone that struggled with depression and anxiety. I feel like I have to be much more okay with the unknown. I think, for me, it is about bringing my faith to the next level and accepting that I many not know what is going to happen two or three months from now. We are in the middle of a writer’s strike and I’m an actor. That’s another unknown that brings up a lot of stuff if I don’t really try to stay grounded and take it one day at a time. I have to catch myself and go back to the basics, and remind myself to focus on what is right in front of me, knowing there will be enough light to take the next step when I get there.

Allison Kugel: What do you think your mom, Donna Summer, mastered during her lifetime, and what continued to be a work in progress for her throughout her life?
 
Brooklyn Sudano: She mastered her gift (referring to her mother’s voice and musical talent). She understood that her gift, her voice, her creativity and her artistry was a gift from God.  She knew that very early on, that it was something that came with a responsibility and she took that very seriously. I think that is why her voice continued to get stronger over the years. She mastered how to use her gift to reach people. I think that is one of the things that made her a genius in her own way. One of the things she was still working on was having to receive love without having to give; to just sit and receive. During her illness and that period of time, that was something that she really had to just release. She had to just sit and understand that just being her was enough. That was a big part of her journey in her last year. 
 
Love To Love You, Donna Summer is now streaming on HBOMAX. Follow Brooklyn Sudano @brooklynsudano.
 
Images Courtesy of Warner Bros./HBO and Brooklyn Sudano
 
Listen to or watch the extended interview on the Allison Interviews Podcast and on YouTube.

By Allison Kugel

Actor, director and New York Times bestselling author, Andrew McCarthy is best known for coming of age movies like St. Elmo’s Fire, Pretty in Pink and Less Than Zero that made an entire generation feel heard and seen, and cementing his place within the pop culture zeitgeist as part of a larger than life group of then famous young actors known as The Brat Pack. The notorious moniker coupled with sudden fame in his early twenties, made McCarthy retreat and re-think his place in the world. Attempting to defy expectations, he went on to try his hand at comedy in quirky films like Mannequin opposite Kim Cattrall and the Weekend at Bernie’s movies with co-stars Jonathan Silverman and Terry Kiser who played the title role.
 
Still restless in spirit, ultimately, McCarthy opted to make the bold move of traveling to Spain to walk the Camino de Santiago trail, which extends clear across the northern border of Spain. It was on that trip in his early thirties, that he was able to put his sudden fame into perspective as he experienced an awakening and a sense of personal accomplishment that eluded him in the height of his movie stardom.
 
In his 2021 memoir, Brat: an ‘80s story (Grand Central Publishing), McCarthy revisits signpost moments from his childhood, through his early years in New York, the sensational movie stardom of the Brat Pack years, his journey to sobriety and complicated family dynamics; particularly with his father.
 
Enjoying a renaissance in his acting career, the celebrated actor, television director and New York Times bestselling author, revisits the Camino de Santiago in Spain with his eldest son, Sam, and chronicles the life changing experience had by father and son in his new book, Walking with Sam: A Father, A Son and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain (Grand Central Publishing), out now.
 
Allison Kugel: In the prologue of your new book, Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain, you talk about your first time walking the Camino de Santiago Trail in Spain in your younger years and how it was sort of a spiritual re-balancing for you after living through the Brat Pack years of your career. You say that at the time you felt you hadn’t earned your accomplishments, meaning your early movie stardom. Why didn’t you earn your accomplishments?
 
Andrew McCarthy: Good question. I didn’t know it was a spiritual rebalancing [at the time]. I never phrased it like that, but I think that is actually what happened, and I was aware that I needed something, I guess.  I’m not sure what it was.  I’m not sure how I ended up at the Camino back then, but I guess I was young and I became very successful very quickly; and I felt what people now call “Imposter Syndrome,” or something like that.
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, there’s a buzz term for everything these days.
 
Andrew McCarthy: Exactly. I guess I felt unprepared and I felt unseen. I was seen in a certain way, and I wasn’t sure that’s who I was. When you’re young, you’re not sure who you are yet, so to be seen and pegged in a certain way, I thought, “Wait, this isn’t quite accurate to who I am.”  Once the Brat Pack stuff came about and I was lumped in with a group of people, I initially didn’t like it. I didn’t want to be labeled and stigmatized, or pigeonholed. I think when you are young and an actor you don’t want to be grouped into anything. You want to be an individual.  In the decades since that time, it’s become an affectionate term, “The Brat Pack,” for a moment in pop culture in the ‘80s when I became this avatar for people’s youth for a certain generation. But when I was young, I think I felt like “What just happened? I don’t even have my feet under me yet.”
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, you hadn’t processed it yet. Ironically, “The Brat Pack” the young actors that were lumped into that group were all really, really talented people. I mean, you were all really talented young actors. I would take pride in that. 
 
Andrew McCarthy: It has certainly become that over the decades, but at the time we did not view it that way. And there are a lot of talented people who are still, all these years later, still chugging away at it.
 
Allison Kugel: So, decades later, in present day, you decide it’s time for a full circle moment, and you take your eldest son, Sam, to do the same walk across Spain that you initially did as a young man. How old were you when you took this first walk across the Camino de Santiago in Spain?
 
Andrew McCarthy: I actually wasn’t so young. I think I was in my very early 30s. I survived that early thing called fame and was not sure what I was looking for, really. Then I came across a book at a bookstore about the Camino de Santiago [trail], which I’d never previously heard of.  The book was about the ancient pilgrimage route of Spain for 500 miles. There was something in that, that just spoke to me. I read the book, and a week later I said, “I’m going to Spain.” I wasn’t sure why, but I did find it to be a life changing experience. I think in a way, and I mention it in the book, there was a moment about halfway through the walk where I was in a field of weeds, and I had this sobbing tantrum. I had a revelation of how much fear had been so dominant in my life in a way that I hadn’t realized before, and it was quite a liberating moment and changed my place in the world. 
 
Allison Kugel: And in the book you chronicle your experience walking this same trail with your son, Sam, who was how old at the time?
 
Andrew McCarthy: He was 19 when we went, which was a year and a half ago. 
 
Allison Kugel: I’m sure you’ve regaled him with stories over the years of when you did this walk for the first time decades ago...
 
Andrew McCarthy: I tried not to regale because there is nothing more boring than, as my daughter calls it, “Here comes a dad story.” (Laugh) They had known about it their whole lives. On occasion I mention the Camino, and they know how big of an experience it was. I’ve encouraged many people, through the years, to go do it, and everyone that has done it has also had a big life changing experience from it. I would recommend it to anyone in a moment of transition in their life. My son was just becoming a man, and my relationship with my own father basically ended when I was 17 years old and left that house. That was the end of our relationship and I didn’t want that to happen with my kids. I wanted to figure out a way to transition our relationship to two adults, as opposed to the dominant parent talking to the kid; to sort of be equals in the world. I thought this trip would be a way to begin the transition to that happening,  and it was a big experience for the both of us. 
 
Allison Kugel: There is a funny moment in the beginning of the book where you say something to the effect of, “I think every young American really gets something profound when they visit Europe for the first time.  I really hope that Sam has that same profound epiphany.”  He then turns to you and says, “How come there are no Flamin’ Hot Cheetos in Europe, dad?” (Laughs)
 
Andrew McCarthy: These are the big questions we need answered (laugh). That was sort of an example of how expectations are going to lead to disappointment every time. You have to let people have their own experiences in their own time. We can lead them and try to force an experience on them, but people can feel that, and they are going to resist it. They need to have their own experience in things. We have no idea what their experience is going to be. 
 
Allison Kugel: Would you say that early fame is a trauma to your system that one has to overcome and heal from? That’s kind of what I got from reading your earlier memoir, Brat: An 80s Story.
 
Andrew McCarthy: Trauma is a big word. There are people who do experience real trauma and being famous in movies in your early 20s doesn’t quite qualify as a trauma. It was life-altering and certainly wonderous in many ways, and overwhelming, but I don’t think it was traumatic. It took me a long time to recover from it and sort of come down and sit with it, and kind of find who I was. When you’re in your early 20s you are still trying to figure out your place in the world and who you are, and I think that sort of rocked that boat for a while. It certainly altered who I would become. But in many ways, it was a blessing, really. 
 

Allison Kugel: You made another comment where you said that your early fame “blew up your dynamic with your siblings, and it was never the same from that point on.”  How does fame blow up family dynamics, exactly?
 
Andrew McCarthy: It depends on the family. Certainly, it can bring you closer together and you can go to family for security and council, and things like that, and it can be a place of solace. That was just not my experience. My dad was having a hard time in his life when I was getting famous, so my fortunes were rising and his were falling, and that was difficult for him. With my brothers, when we were growing up, I was never the star of the family. My older brother was the baseball star. The other one was the smart one, and I was the little sensitive kid. Then, I’m in movies and they are in their mid-twenties. They are trying to figure out their place in the world, and suddenly there goes me and I’m suddenly now American royalty. That is what movie stars were and have been; America’s royalty. I’m now this thing, and I don’t know that they ever really recovered from that. 
 
Allison Kugel: I think it’s hard as human beings, in general, not to fall prey to the disease of comparison. 
 
Andrew McCarthy: Yes, and drugs
 
 
Allison Kugel: Your son Sam is a working actor. He was recently on the Netflix show Dead to Me with Christina Applegate, and your daughter has appeared on Broadway.  It seems you were never completely comfortable in your own skin on red carpets and in front of flashing cameras. Did you want your own kids in show business? How did that come about?
 
Andrew McCarthy: I would say that in many ways I was more at home in front of the camera than anywhere else. I found the attention on the red carpet very nerve wracking, but I always instilled in my kids that I didn’t want them to be actors. And then God is cruel and gives us these things (laugh). In reality, acting saved my life when I was 15. I had been cut from the high school basketball team and my mother suggested I try out for a play. I didn’t want to try out for the play. I wanted to be the point guard! But I did try out for the play and was cast as the Artful Dodger in Oliver, and it changed my life. I walked out on a stage and suddenly I knew what I was going to be. I knew that it was a profound experience because I told nobody. It was mine.  I didn’t want someone to squash that before it had taken root. Because acting really saved me, if my kids want to do that, then they should. What they’ve gotten from seeing me do it is knowing it’s not a glamourous thing. You go to work, you figure out how to do it, you get up early. It is a great job, but it’s a job like other jobs, so it’s not perceived as particularly glamourous in my house. Although it is a wonderful life and career. It’s like a family business in a certain kind of way, so why shouldn’t they?  After getting away from acting for a long time and recently going  back to it, I felt like myself again. It they feel like themselves when they do it, fantastic.
 
Allison Kugel: Throughout this book, your son Sam is also very open with you about smoking cigarettes and about trying different substances. You, yourself struggled with substance abuse as a young man. And as you have explained it, you were kind of using those things as a way to kind of emotionally regulate yourself in those days. What was going on there?
 
Andrew McCarthy: What was I thinking there (laugh)? Of course, the first thing you feel as a parent is fear, because drugs and alcohol almost destroyed me. Of course, you’re afraid for your children in that moment. Drugs and alcohol are a slippery slope that everyone has to navigate, and everyone will experiment with and try. To pretend it’s not going to happen is foolish and sticking your head in the sand. I have just been honest with my kids since the beginning. I said the only thing that can derail your life, and it derailed mine, is drugs and alcohol. I’m a broken record with that. “But,” I’ve said, “You are going to do it, and you have it in your family, so just know that.” But again, information will never keep anybody clean and sober. Information does not stop people from doing drugs and alcohol. I’m very grateful that he would share that with me and communicate. All you want to do with people you love is to be able to communicate and connect.  When you can communicate, you connect, you create intimacy, and then you have a bond. I’ve expressed, “If that is what is going on and that is what you are thinking about, talk to me about it. Obviously, I’m going to respond, because I’ve had my own history, so I have a fearful reaction when you tell me that, but I hear you, and I did have some great fun when I did it.” Nobody can smell truth and lies like your kids and it’s for them to discover. 
 
Allison Kugel: I want to touch on Orange is The New Black, because I don’t think a lot of people know that you were a director on that series. It’s the series that really catapulted Netflix into the original content space and into what it is today.
 
Andrew McCarthy: That was an interesting experience. A friend of mine was a producer on it, and they couldn’t get any directors, because at the time it was on this thing called Netflix that no one understood, like doesn’t Netflix mail you DVDs? Oh, they’re doing a show? I asked, “Where is the show going to be on?” They said, “Well, they are going to stream it.” I said, “Okay fine, but what channel is it going to be on?” (Laughs) No one could understand what was going on and they couldn’t get any actors for it, because who is going to see this thing? I said, “I’ll do it.” I directed a bunch of them, and I remember the day I was in the producer’s office and they said, “They are going to put them all out on the same day.”  I remember being the wise one in the room and saying, “That is the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard.”
 
Allison Kugel: Wisdom of the ages (laughs).
 
Andrew McCarthy: And of course, they all come out and Netflix takes over the world. It was a wonderful and exciting moment to be part of something like that. It caught everyone, it certainly caught me and everyone I know who was involved in it, by total surprise that this happened. The first few years of Orange is The New Black were very exciting.  I think it was a very good show until the end, but after seven years it kind of settles in to what it is, and kind of loses that electric spark. But for a time, it was certainly quite something.  
 
Allison Kugel: What was your favorite part of directing many episodes of Orange is The New Black?
 
Andrew McCarthy: Working with the actors in that most of them were very raw and very green and new. They were just thrilled to be there. Helping to sculp that and work with them was fun and exciting. There is a moment in acting, particularly when you are young and doing something for the first time; it’s that moment of discovery and that blossoming happens in real time in front of your eyes on the screen. I look back at some of my early movies and I can question some of the acting, but I certainly did have that in St. Elmo’s Fire and in Pretty in Pink. The ladies in Orange is The New Black had those moments when we were doing show.  You look back at James Dean in East of Eden or Leonardo DiCaprio in What’s Eating Gilbert Grape, and you see that moment on screen. All actors experience it; this moment of blossoming is the only word I can think of. 

Allison Kugel: In the acting part of your career you made movies that so many people attach to their own coming of age memories or just lots of laughter and enjoyment. With that being said, what was your favorite moment on a movie set? 
 
Andrew McCarthy: You don’t always just remember the one’s you loved (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Well, we can talk about the ones you hated, but…
 
Andrew McCarthy: I loved doing the Weekend at Bernie’s movies for some reason.  I hadn’t gotten the opportunity to do comedy like that and it was really fun, and there was so much of those movies that we made up as we went along. You can feel the excitement in what we were doing. It was like, this is so stupid, ridiculous, and anything goes. Let’s just do it! I also loved making St. Elmo’s Fire. That was the third or fourth movie I did, and I felt very comfortable and relaxed and was doing what I wanted to be doing. I was having a moment there, and that was nice to feel. Those two movies stand out to me for the pure joy of doing of them. I felt very present and very alive in the creation of them. 
 
Allison Kugel: You’re also an acclaimed travel writer. This new book, Walking with Sam, is kind of a hybrid memoir and travel book. Tell me about your passion for travel and travel writing. 
 
Andrew McCarthy: That all began with the first Camino I walked 25 or so years ago.  After I walked that first Camino, I kept traveling and alone. I think traveling alone is an important thing. The farther from home I got, the more at home I felt. I kept traveling and I started writing stuff down in little notebooks. I would write down things people said to me and I did that for years and years for no intent with it except to enjoy it. One day I did have intent with it and then I met an editor of a magazine and said, “You ought to let me write for your magazine.” He said, “You’re an actor dude (laugh).” And I replied, “Yes, but I can tell a story. That’s what I do.” I wrote a travel story and it did well, and I wrote another and another and it became this sort of accidental career. I became successful at it for two reasons: I knew travel was deeply important and had a value, not something you do for Instagram photos, although they didn’t exist back then, or for bragging rights or bucket lists. Travel is a meaningful thing that can change who we are in the world, and in mind and spirit. I also knew how to tell a story, rather than selling a destination.  If you love what you are doing it always shows. I felt that when I was travel writing the same way that I felt it when I was acting when I was very young. Then I started to feel it again when I was directing the ladies in Orange is The New Black. I’m helping these people create this thing. They are all kind of the same thing in my mind. Then the books grew out of all of that. 
 
Allison Kugel: There is a quote in this book, Walking with Sam, that I just love. Towards the end of your journey you write, “Although the greater world might reasonably argue that this walk has no real purpose, that it achieves no practical goals and so it is of no merit or consequence, there is a growing awareness among us without being able to quite name it yet, that what we are doing is somehow of importance and meaning.” 
 
The reason I love that quote is because in our western culture we prize accomplishments that lead to lots of money and lots of recognition. But we don’t always value things that make our soul feel alive or help us grow.  I think we need to place more emphasis on those things. 
 
Andrew McCarthy: I think that is all true. There is no better feeling than that. I forgot about that quote, but I’m glad you bring that up, because that feeling I had was exactly that. We want money and things because it gives us a high, but that other feeling that you are quoting there is one of deep resonance internally that can’t be beat. 
 
Allison Kugel: You’ve made no secret about the fact that you and your father did not have the best relationship. You loved your father, but your father was, as you described him, a very angry man, often brooding with mood swings when you were growing up.  Do you still carry the fear of being the “bad father” with your own kids? 
 
Andrew McCarthy: You are right in all of that. My relationship with my dad healed when I went to go see him when he was dying. I sat with him for those few weeks. My wife was the one that said, “You need to go see your dad.” I went because I wanted to be a better parent to my kids. I went selfishly, and to sit there with my dad and tell him I loved him and I was sorry that I wasn’t the son he wanted. To just be there and to see the fear in him that he always masked with anger, because anger feels better than fear, right? With anger you feel in control. Anger is always a mask of fear. Always. To see the fear in him was so liberating for me and to hold his hand while he was dying was a profound experience. We did not solve our past. We just dropped it and discarded it. Since he is gone, I’m very free to love him in a way that I wasn’t when he was alive, and I was so afraid of him. With my own kids, I think the Camino [trail] had a lot to do with it. Walking with Sam, both the book and the action, it freed me a lot from that.  During our walk across Spain, I risked just being who I am in front of my son, as opposed to being the dad who’s got it all down. I had moments in front of him of not knowing and being a bit of a mess at times, being reactive at times and then apologizing and being vulnerable and saying, “This is who I am son.”  To let him see me and I think he appreciated that, and I appreciated him perceiving me in that way, so it altered things. I feel less fear or anxiety of our relationship disintegrating the way mine did with my father. That was the whole intent of the that journey, and then consequently the book. Has it completed the job? No, but it has begun to do it to a larger degree. 
 
Allison Kugel: You were raised a Catholic, right? 
 
Andrew McCarthy: I was raised Catholic, but I have long walked away from it. I find it shocking that the Catholic church is still in business after all of this. If any other business had done what the Catholic church did, they would be long out of business and in jail. Every one of them. 
 
Allison Kugel: They have not fallen prey to cancel culture (laugh).
 
Andrew McCarthy: No. They bought their way out of that. 
 
Allison Kugel: Organized religion aside, in quiet moments do you pray? And if so, who or what do you pray to?
 
Andrew McCarthy: I pray every day. But in certain ways, who or what I pray to is none of my business. I feel like if I could understand it, there wouldn’t be the thing I’m praying to. I don’t think that matters, particularly. I just feel like there is some sort of connection to something and I know it when I feel it. I’ve had moments of it in my life where I have experienced the sensation of grace. When I walked the Camino the first time and I had that moment of weakness and sobbing and realized how much fear I had in my life, it was a moment of grace that I received. There have been other moments in my life where I’ve had that happen and that didn’t come from me, or maybe it came from me. I don’t know what the difference is, but yes, I do pray. I understand why [organized] religion is valuable to people. It is just not something I find solace in.  I’m not sure I’m looking necessarily for solace, anyway. I’m looking for a connection to something; to be a part of something. I often feel like I’m stumbling in the dark with it, and that is fine.
 
Allison Kugel: And lastly, what do you think you came into this life as Andrew McCarthy to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Andrew McCarthy: The answer would be the same for both, and that is that fear is a phantom.
 
Andrew McCarthy’s new book, Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain (Grand Central Publishing) is out now and available wherever books are sold. Follow Andrew McCarthy on Instagram @andrewtmccarthy
 
Listen to or watch the extended interview on the Allison InterviewsPodcast and YouTube.

​In the latest installment of the Allison Interviews podcast, spiritual guru, world renowned activist and bestselling author, Deepak Chopra, shares his theory on Stephen “tWitch’ Boss’ tragic suicide, what he discussed with Michael Jackson during his time counseling the late pop icon, the best advice he has ever received, the benefits of Royal Yoga, and the Chopra Foundation’s Never Alone movement which has prevented thousands of suicides since launching in 2020.  
 
The following are excerpts from the latest episode of the Allison Interviews podcast with host and entertainment journalist, Allison Kugel. The full podcast episode is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify; and on YouTube. 

On his theory about what may have led to Stephen “tWitch” Boss’ Death (and other tragic celebrity suicides):
“In my experience celebrities particularly in the entertainment business but celebrities of all kinds. We had Anthony Bourdain who died of that as well they actually are actually much more insecure than the ordinary person because they have to live up to the world’s expectations.  They are only as good as their last hit and once you become that level of celebrity where you feel everything you do has to be a hit creates chronic anxiety.  Every time I’ve worked with or known a celebrity it’s their insecurity that drives them and they have to have one little negative experience to actually drive them to the edge of insanity.  I would say that the regular person who is not in the public eye is usually much more secure than a celebrity.  So, it’s the other way around.  The celebrities need to learn how to be just like regular people.” 
 
On the advice he gave the late Michael Jackson:
“I used to work with people like Michael Jackson [and other celebrities], and I used to encourage them to embrace their insecurity.  I would say, ‘The more you embrace your insecurities, the more creative you will be. If you become secure, you lose your creativity.’ Vulnerability, unpredictability, uncertainty, confusion, bewilderment… those are the things that one can use as creativity.  If everything was certain and you are totally secure, boy, you would be bored for the rest of your life.” 
 
On whether this advice worked for the late Michael Jackson:
“Yes, until he got addicted to drugs as a result of the insecurities of his physician, who became his drug peddler.”
 
On the surprising and funny best advice he has ever received:
“’Shut up.’ I told myself that, because when I shut up I’m at peace (laugh). Take time to be silent. In silence, truth is real and not by somebody’s advice. Silence is where the truth lies.”
 
On his Never Alone initiative to prevent suicide:
Never Alone is an initiative of the Chopra Foundation that was co-founded with an actress named Gabriella Wright, whose sister had died of suicide.  We realized that people could be connected to each other by what we call the “4 As”- Attention - deep listening, Affection - deep caring, Appreciation – deep gratitude, and Acceptance – not trying to change anybody, but radical acceptance;  accepting everybody as they are. And if we could connect [people] in a global community, we could actually prevent this pandemic [of suicide].” (visit NeverAlone.love for more information)
 
“The A.I. interface at NeverAlone.love has actually intervened about 6,000 suicidal ideations,” Chopra shares, “and the A.I. is capable of having 20 million conversations simultaneously with people. We are going to take it to Arabic, Persian and to European languages.  We are going to create global online and offline communities with three things: selfless service, community and daily spiritual practice.”
 
“If we can do that,” he continues, “I think we will have a very good chance of tackling this global pandemic which is a tragedy of our times.” 
 
*Deepak Chopra’s 93rd book, Living in the Light, is out now.
 
About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist with more than three hundred long form celebrity and newsmaker interviews published and syndicated, worldwide. She is author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and host of the new podcast, Allison Interviews, where listeners can tune in to hear the full conversations behind Allison’s print interviews. Watch and embed the entire interview video with Deepak Chopra @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com

 In the latest installment of the Allison Interviews podcast, viral rap sensation YelloPain candidly discusses his rise from Dayton, Ohio’s projects to becoming rap’s Gen Z voice, why many young boys are conditioned to cheat in relationships as men, his disdain for the history of Thanksgiving, the real power behind government, his fascination with the 1980s crack epidemic and 80s hip hop, and his upcoming documentary film which breaks down how voting really works.
 
The following are excerpts from the latest episode of the Allison Interviews podcast with host and entertainment journalist, Allison Kugel. The full podcast episode is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify; and on YouTube. 

On why so many men cheat in relationships:
“What I would really call it is self-validation. I think as a kid you just get thrown into that world. You don't have that much knowledge. All you know is just what kids know, and if people value you based upon the amount of attention you get from females you think, ‘Hey, if I'm going to be somebody, if I'm going to have purpose in my life, if I'm going to feel good about myself, I need to be in that race,’ even at 12 and 13 years old. I'm from the hood and the young dudes brag about how many girls they had sex with. I didn't even think about having sex before being thrown into the culture of that fast-paced [life]. Everybody's trying to get something, so it became that type of chase, and as a kid you figure out, ‘How can I conquer by any means necessary? How can I not be lame? How can I not be corny?’ That's what happens to a lot of us. So, as we get older, some of those patterns, they stay in us and it becomes a part of our personality.” 
 
On learning to value monogamous relationships, marriage and fatherhood:
“I think we are learning that more, now that it’s becoming more popularized. A lot of people think that social media is the demise of the world, but to be honest I think it’s access to information that we would never have gotten outside of our homes; a lot of things we were not exposed to. Now you can hear somebody like me and the song “The Real Reason Why Men Cheat.” You can hear that song at age 12. You have access to truth. [Now] it's not just whatever you take in at home or in your own neighborhood.”
 
On his dislike of the history of Thanksgiving:
“I definitely have a bone to pick with it. As I was doing research, I was reading books and I visited Indian villages. I had Zoom calls with Native American people who are still on their reservations, who know their own history. The more I found out, it just kind of got sick, and I was like, ‘How did this become permanent history for us?’ We kind of just got tied into [a holiday] that was celebratory based around murder and successfully overtaking this country, So I don't celebrate Thanksgiving. I do love the aspect of family, but what if the alternative is just another day? Another name? Just to break that tradition, kind of like how the Washington Redskins had to change their name to the [Washington] Commanders. It's like, let's just take the brutal history out of it and make it something fresh.”
 
On his fascination with the 1980s crack cocaine epidemic:
“This is about to sound crazy, but I would have wanted to witness the crack era, just because it's a culture I didn't see. My parents did tell me this story that when they had moved to the projects and when crack cocaine had first hit the community, it was like wildfire. People would be begging, trying to get crack off you. And you would pull into the neighborhood and they would be banging on your window saying, ‘Hey, I got this.’ They knew what it was going to do, and it was just like this crazy obsession with everybody trying to sell crack and get it. Then just seeing how that went and how indictments worked in the government, and that whole era. It’s the ‘80s and still kind of tied to Hip Hop, because Hip Hop started to shift in that time into what it is now, from what we first fell in love with. I would like to just go back there and experience it just to see how it was.”
 
On how crack led to Bill Clinton’s 1994 Tough on Crime bill:
“I was already into the Hip Hop culture aspect of it and watching drug movies, to see how it operated in the time period. Once I got into politics, I saw how it tied together and became this whole thing, seeing how the government works. With [Bill] Clinton, and this is my opinion and I don't really share political opinions too much, but it just kind of goes into what I say in my documentary. Politicians work for the people who vote for them. It was a very popular thing to say, ‘I want to be tough on crime.’ It still is, but back in the day it issued a level of protection that made a lot of people vote for the person. So I'm thinking Bill Clinton thought, ‘If I'm running, I have to say what the people who are voting want to hear.’ Then he had to be held accountable for the things he said, which means he's then signing a crime bill. It all kind of works together and it's a fascinating story.”
 
On his life’s purpose:
“Every now and then I think my purpose is one thing and then it goes into another thing. I thought I was going to be this super lit rapper and then I made a song about drug addiction that went viral. My uncle had just recently passed, and I lived in a community (Dayton, Ohio) where it was the number one city for drug overdose deaths. People overdosed right outside my front door, so it was those types of experiences that made me passionate about that subject matter. But now it's the voting space, and even in the voting space it was the song, but now it's a documentary film. I don't believe in just one purpose. I believe in assignments, and I think God puts us all on assignments. I take every assignment seriously, and I try to execute it to the best of my ability.”
 
About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist with hundreds of longform celebrity and newsmaker interviews published and syndicated, worldwide. She is author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Watch and embed the entire interview video with YelloPain @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com
​

By Allison Kugel
 
Julio Iglesias Jr. first entered the music business as a small child, touring the world with his famous father while being introduced on stage to tens of millions of fans across continents. The eldest son of Julio Iglesias, the biggest selling Spanish music artist of all time with one hundred million albums sold, and television host Isabel Preysler, Iglesias Jr. shares his father’s love for timeless love ballads that continue to inspire generations. His passion lies in the classic soul-quenching romance of his father’s era, which included Latin pop and adult contemporary music that has helped to set the Iglesias music legacy in stone.
 
Born in Madrid, Spain, Iglesias Jr., along with his older sister Chabeli and younger brother Enrique, emigrated to Miami, Florida as children to live with their father, allowing the siblings a front row seat to their father’s career and lifestyle. The family continues to call Miami home. The city’s balmy air, Latin influence and musicality keeps Iglesias Jr. tied to his roots and allows for regular family reunions.
 
In his latest English-language album, Under the Covers, Julio Iglesias Jr. offers fans an updated rendition of the classic love ballad Into the Night. The song was originally recorded in 1980 by the late Benny Mardones. Iglesias Jr.’s voice seamlessly blends with that of Mardones in the updated duet, adding new texture to the song. Other tracks on the album include a sparkling Stevie Wonder medley in duet with Brian McKnight, a big band version of the Right Said Fred camp hit I’m Too Sexy, a jazz-inspired cover of Billy Joel’s Just the Way You Are, a silky interpretation of the George Michael hit Careless Whisper in duet with Jewel, and more.
 
Allison Kugel: What is your earliest memory of falling in love with music? 
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I remember going on tour with my dad when I was seven, eight, nine years old; traveling all over Europe with my dad, watching him on stage and just falling in love with the idea of one day being there doing the same thing. It was incredible to watch him performing at all of these huge stadiums with 20,000 or 30,000 people watching him, adoring him, and loving the music. It was really amazing for me to be able to experience that. 
 
Allison Kugel: Was it the energy of the crowd and the applause, was it the music, or a combination? 
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: It was a little bit of everything. Just watching people’s faces and listening to the music. It’s funny, because now when I’m doing all of these shows around the world, performing all of these songs that my dad used to sing, for me to be able to sing those songs now on stage that I grew up listening to him sing is just an unbelievable experience for me. 
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, I watched a video of you and your father, Julio Iglesias, performing hi classic song, To All the Girls I’ve Loved Before, on stage together.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: That was a while ago, but people always talk to me about that video. 

Allison Kugel: Your father, Julio Iglesias, is the biggest selling Spanish music artist of all time. Do you get nervous when you are performing with him on stage?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: How can I explain this? Yes. The first time I actually had the chance to go on tour with my dad in 2015 and we did eight or nine shows together, I opened up the shows for my dad which is really an incredible experience. The first time I went on stage with him was that video that you saw and it was pretty intimidating, I have to admit. It is also intimidating to sing a lot of my dad’s songs now at my age because I feel they are always going to compare [us], but I just love singing those songs and my dad has told me, “[There is] no better person than you to sing those songs around the world. They’re songs that you grew up listening to, and I love the way you sing them.”
 
Allison Kugel: What experiences have shaped the human being you are today?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: There are so many, but the major one is growing up in this musical family. My dad being one of the most well-known entertainers in the world. I’ll never forget when we were very young, my dad used to bring us up on stage. After a certain song he would just bring the kids up on stage and we used to get really embarrassed. It was one of the most embarrassing moments of our lives. I’ll never forget talking to my brother Enrique or my older sister Chabeli about those moments when dad used to bring us up on stage and present us to the world.  It was pretty nerve wracking with all those people looking at you and being the son of such a huge star. It really shaped my life in the way that I am now and what I grew up into. I also got to learn and I got to meet so many people. That is why I speak 3 or 4 languages. I got to travel. I got to do so many things that I was blessed to do. 
 
Allison Kugel: When you and your brother Enrique were kids, would you say, “Hey, when we grow up, we are going to be famous singers like dad.”?  What was the conversation?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Actually, my dad wanted us to be lawyers or doctors. He was always trying to push us away from being entertainers, because he knows how tough it is. He knows how weird it can be sometimes. I know now how difficult it is to be successful and to really make it in the music industry as an entertainer.  It is very difficult and challenging, and you have to be very serious and very smart.
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your new single, a remake of the classic song, Into the Night. You re-made it as a duet with the late Benny Mardones (Mardones passed away in 2020), the original artist who recorded the song. How did that collaboration come about? 
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: When my manager Mark Oswald and my producer Rudy Perez get together with me and we started talking about what kind of record we wanted to do, what kinds of songs we wanted to do, and we finally decided we wanted to do a big band record with all of these great oldies but goodies. It’s all of these great songs that everybody knows, and that my generation grew up listening to. We came across Into the Night and I was actually telling Rudy that when I first came to the U.S. (Iglesias Jr. emigrated from Madrid, Spain) in 1986, I used to always listen to that song on the radio and think, “Oh my God, I love this song!” even though I didn’t understand it. I loved the music and I loved the beat. I never thought when I first listened to this song in 1986 that I would one day do the duet with Benny, and that it would be my first single on my new record. 
 
Allison Kugel: Some the elements of the original song would be politically incorrect today in today’s culture.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: We actually changed the lyrics. You’re totally right. We were recording the song and Rudy comes up to me and says, “Dude, I think we have to change the lyrics, and Benny loved the idea at the time. He loved the idea of doing the duet with me and he was okay with actually changing the lyrics, which was incredible. [We just changed the first line of the song].
 
Allison Kugel: One of the things that makes the song so powerful is its passion. Would you say that you have a romantic soul?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Big time, and this is the type of music that I love. I’ve listened to all types of music in my life, but for the last 10-15 years I have felt that this is the path I want. These are the songs that I want to sing. I feel very comfortable and very happy singing great ballads, love songs and songs that touch your heart. I really feel that is my thing.
 
Allison Kugel: What’s your relationship situation?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I actually got divorced two years ago, and now I’m dating and I’m super happy. 
I have a girlfriend now. We get a long really well, and she’s good.
 
Allison Kugel: You cover a lot of artists’ classic songs. Do you write original material as well? 
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I wrote my whole 2003 Spanish record in 2003, called Tercera Dimension. I was really inspired in the early 2000s to write these songs in Spanish. It just came to me and I started writing like crazy. It’s been a while since I’ve really written a song. I definitely know what I like, and I know a great song. I would love to get back to writing and really focus again like I did in 2003. 
 
Allison Kugel: The album that is coming out this winter is called Under the Covers. Is this your first all English-language album?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: This is actually my second English album. I’ve done a couple of bilingual Spanish and English records. This is my full all-English record…
 
Allison Kugel: … With a really eclectic group of songs. How did you choose some of these songs and artists to cover?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: With Into the Night, the hardest part of the record was choosing ten songs out of 150 that I had in mind. Rudy and I would sit for hours trying to figure out which songs we are going to do, and which songs could we make into a big band production that would sound amazing. Another song on the album is Just the Way You Are,” which is one of my favorite songs of all time. 
 
Allison Kugel: I love Billy Joel!
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: He is one of my favorite artists of all time.
 
Allison Kugel: Me too. Did anyone ever ask you, “If you were stuck on a desert island, and you could only play one album…?”  Mine would be Billy Joel Greatest Hits Volume I and II.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Anybody that tells me they don’t like Billy Joel, I just cannot believe it. For me, Billy Joel rocks the earth. Just the Way You Are is another one of those songs I grew up listening to and when I told Rudy I would like to do a Billy Joel song, that was the song. The way we did it with the horns and the production, I love the way it came out and I’m super happy the song made it onto the record. 
 
Allison Kugel: And you have a duet with Jewel, a cover of George Michael’s Careless Whisper.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: That was a song that my dad also sang. It is one of the best George Michaels songs. Then we have a beautiful Stevie Wonder medley with Over Joy and I Just Called to Say I Love You.
 
Allison Kugel: One of my favorites!
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Yes, and Isn’t She Lovely.
 
Allison Kugel: And that is a duet with Brian McKnight?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Yes, and we were very happy that Brian wanted to work on the record with us.
 
Allison Kugel: Okay, this one shocked me.  You do a big band-esque cover of Right Said Fred, I’m Too Sexy.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: It was also one of those songs that, of course, I’ve heard a million times. I grew up with that song in the 90s. [We] actually spoke to the guys from Right Said Fred and they agreed to do it as a duet. The way we did it is, we kept the beat of that song, because that is what makes the song it’s a similar version, but big band with a lot of instruments in the right places. It sounds like a band is playing it, instead of a computerized [sound]. 

Allison Kugel: I find that songs from decades past really told stories. You would listen to a song from decades past and the artist told a story, with both lyrics and emotion. I find that’s been lost a little bit in today’s music.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I don’t doubt it. I definitely think in old songs, they capture your heart. It is completely different from nowadays in the Latin and Spanish market, which is even worse. In the Latin market it has become very Urban, Reggaeton. You don’t have those songs that really capture your heart. It’s not timeless music. People listen to it today, but tomorrow people will not remember those songs like we did with the old songs. 
 
Allison Kugel: You will be performing live at the Latin Song Writers Hall of Fame La Musa Awards on October 13th.
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Yes, it will either be October 13th or 14th, and we have not done it in two years because of Covid.  Covid ruined a lot of the awards and a lot of music’s important stuff that we have all been wanting to do for the last two years. This year it is happening again, finally, and everybody is super excited. It will be televised. I’m supposed to do a performance in that show, but we don’t know yet. We are working on it. 
 
Allison Kugel: You grew up in Spain with your mother until the age of nine, and then you moved to Miami to live with your father. What prompted that move from Spain to Miami?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: My dad was working in the U.S. in the early 80s and throughout the 90s. He moved to Miami, I think, in ‘78 and ‘79. It was just easier for him to work in the U.S. and in South America. In ’82 and ‘83 my grandfather got kidnapped. My father and mother were divorced at the time and they decided to bring the kids (Iglesias Jr., brother Enrique Iglesias and their sister, Chabeli) to the U.S., just for safety reasons. So, we moved to the U.S. in 1985, and I think it was after my grandfather was kidnapped in Madrid, Spain. He was kidnapped for about three months.
 
Allison Kugel: Was your grandfather held for a ransom payment from your father?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Yes, he was held for ransom and so my mother and father decided to bring the kids to the U.S. because they were scared for the kids.
 
Allison Kugel:  I’ve heard of that happening in Central and South America.  I’ve never heard of it happening in Europe. 
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: In Europe, Yes. In the ‘80s we had ETA in Spain, which was a terrorist group from Northern Spain, and they used to do these kinds of things.
 
Allison Kugel: Was he returned safely?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Actually, the Spanish police found him and saved his life. 
 
Allison Kugel: What is your parent’s relationship like today?  Do they maintain a friendship?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Oh yes, they have a great relationship. They love each other very much and they talk all the time. 
 
Allison Kugel: That is awesome. What is a big Iglesias family gathering like?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I’m lucky in the sense that I get to spend two Christmas’ in the sense that we spend some part of Christmas in Europe and some part of Christmas in the U.S., because we have my father’s side, my mother’s side, and then I have my sister who has two kids, my brother who has three kids. So when we all gather together, we need a ballroom. It’s crazy.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you think you will ever have kids?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Yes, of course. I would love to. I still feel young and strong. 
 
Allison Kugel:  You are crazy fit.  What is your fitness routine?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I’m just always doing something, and I love sports. I don’t eat meat. I do a lot of sports. I’m always doing something. I’m always moving. I’m not a couch potato. I don’t sit on the couch and do nothing. I sleep well and I’m always very active in anything that I do. That is the only thing, and my genes, because my mother is very thin. My father is pretty thin too, so genes are also part of it. 
 
Allison Kugel: Do you think you, your father, and your brother, Enrique, would ever tour together at some point?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I think so. We’ve spoken about it at family reunions and it would be something amazing. [We would] maybe even record a song together and then tour.
 
Allison Kugel: What is the best advice you have ever received?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: My father told me to be true to yourself and be a good person. Surround yourself with good people that are trustworthy, and that you can learn from.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you pray? And, if so, who or what do you pray to?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I definitely believe in God, and I pray. When I pray, and I know this sounds corny, but I pray when I go on an airplane every time (laugh). I’ve always done that, my whole life. I’m so used to it. I get on an airplane and I start praying. I pray to God that everything is safe, and we are going to get to our destination in a safe way.
 
Allison Kugel: If you could travel back in time and change any famous historical event,  where would you go and what would attempt to change?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I’m really into nature and I’m a big animal person. I love dogs, cats, and any animal. I would have a zoo in my house if I could. I would change the way animals are treated. I would change global warming. I would have started many, many years ago what we are trying to do now. The world would be a much better place for us to all live in.
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Julio Iglesias Jr. to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: To teach, I would say to be a good person and to be respectful to others. Treat people the way you want to be treated, yourself. And I am here to learn about everything. I’m the type of person that wants to know about absolutely everything. Even if it is the dumbest thing, or something I will never use, it is just very interesting for me to know about everything. I love to learn. 
 
Allison Kugel: Do you have any outside-the-box interests or hobbies that would surprise people?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: I’m a big water sports fan. I do windsurfing, kiteboarding, wake surfing and wake boarding. I love sports. At the same time, I’m a really good tennis player. I’m also a mechanic. I love cars. I love taking a motor out of a car and rebuilding the engine. I’m an electrician. I’m a gardener. I’m a plumber. I’m a handyman. I do everything myself. If something needs to be fixed in the house, I do it myself. People would never believe how much stuff I really do. Barely anybody walks into my house to do stuff, because I do it myself.
 
Allison Kugel: That is beyond awesome! The new album Under the Covers is out February 7th. Correct?
 
Julio Iglesias Jr: Yes, the week of February 7th leading up to Valentine’s Day. 
 
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Watch her extended interview with Julio Iglesias Jr. on YouTube or listen to the extended interview on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com.
 
Listen to Julio Iglesias Jr.’s Into the Night Duet with Benny Mardones. Follow Julio Iglesias Jr on Instagram @juliojrofficial and visit julioiglesiasjronline.com.
 
Photos courtesy of Jesus Cordero

By Allison Kugel
 
For more than a decade, Maksim Chmerkovskiy dazzled Dancing with the Stars fans with a superbly versatile talent for ballroom dance cultivated through his Ukrainian roots and with a family tradition that began with his mother, Larisa Chmerkovskaya. A love of dance was passed down to Maksim and his younger brother and DWTS cast member, Valentin Chmerkovskiy. One of the first things the family did upon emigrating to the United States was to open a dance studio in New Jersey, as the brothers traveled the world competing in dance competitions and racking up trophies for their prowess. When Dancing with the Stars came calling, it took some convincing to get him on board, until his younger brother Val gave him the nudge to venture out to Los Angeles and give television a try.
 
Having completed seventeen seasons of the juggernaut television show, Maks’ celebrity dance partners have included Vanessa Lachey, Brandy, Melanie Brown, Laila Ali, Melissa Gilbert, Denise Richards, Tia Carrere and many others. Maks now marvels at the irony of what his television fame has given him, including his beautiful wife and fellow DWTS pro, Peta Murgatroyd. “We met on Broadway, but the reality is I would probably not have been on that Broadway production had I not been a certain level dancer on television,” he happily admits.
 
His notoriety and large fanbase has also offered him a spotlight from which to launch his 501c3 nonprofit organization, Baranova 27. The public nonprofit has been providing continuous resources, including housing, to Ukrainians during the country’s ongoing war with Russia and its fight to remain an independent and democratic nation.
 
Allison Kugel: I would love for people to know your early story. What prompted your family to leave Ukraine when you were fourteen and your younger brother, fellow Dancing with the Stars pro Val, was eight?
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: My family got up and left [Ukraine] because of the opportunities for us in the U.S., but also because of the [Soviet] army reserves and the way you were being put on their list.  The army back there was mandatory, and so my parents looked at me turning fourteen and thought, ‘Okay, he is next.’  As a matter of fact, at fourteen I was already put on the list for when I would turn eighteen. As we were finalizing our documents [to emigrate to the U.S.], that’s what happened.  All of a sudden, I was in school and someone came in and they put me on the list. My mom started freaking out, thinking they are not going to let us out of the country.
 
When we emigrated to the United States and I started to mature and grow up, and I talked to my fellow immigrants and I realized it wasn’t all gravy [in the former Soviet Union). My dad wasn’t able to go to the university he wanted to go to. He actually wasn’t allowed into a university, because he was Jewish. He had to go into the Merchant Marine in order to also not fall into the army.  All of those things made it not the place you wanted to raise your kids, let’s put it that way.
 
Allison Kugel: Then you landed in New York City and settled in Brooklyn. How were those early days?
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: We landed here. We moved on from where we came from.  We weren’t focused on the immigrant part of it. But there were food stamps, there was welfare and government assistance programs. We were given plastic chairs. I remember we were a family of four and we got furniture that was donated to us by a Jewish organization. I remember we got a table and three chairs and I thought, “That is odd. There are four of us.” My parents both had two jobs.  Not the jobs that you would be proud of but… we are talking about dishwasher and delivery boy. This is while trying to learn English and while trying to get some kind of education going.  All of those struggles were crazy, but we felt good about it.  We felt romantic about it. 
 
I got beat up on the second day here, so talk about “Welcome to America.” Half of the kids that beat me up were fellow immigrants. It was a United Nations welcome. There were a few moments that toughened me up.  If everything was roses and butterflies, it would have been different. My path, and the overcoming of some things, it’s not me patting myself on the back, but saying that the circumstance behind my life was such that it shaped me to do this. If the circumstances were easy, maybe I would be something different.

Allison Kugel: Then you returned to Ukraine earlier this year just as Russia invaded the country, and you were finally able to get out of the country and into Poland. What was that experience like for you?
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: There was the announcement. “This is the train going to Warsaw.”  The people that were with me shoved me on the train and then the doors opened and all of these people just bum-rushed it. Just to give you a visual, the train car is made for 30 people. We had 137 people on that train. It was so packed to where I realized I’m just taking up way too much space, so I moved myself and put myself in a little place that was in between the train [cars]. Then all of these people felt bad for me because I was freezing, so I came back in and warmed up. Someone made me a sandwich and then everybody went to sleep, and there became literally no space to stand because everybody is just laying down everywhere. 
 
We saw a mother who was right next to me. She got on the train with her two kids, but in the process of getting on the train she had to dump all of their stuff.  So now she has a wallet and two kids, and nothing else.  We had to collect some milk and formula for the baby. I mean, I have a five-year-old and we are freaking out when his day is not going according to plan, right?  This is just so horrible and crazy. 
 
Allison Kugel: You made it back home to Los Angeles safely and then you returned to Warsaw, Poland to help out as Ukrainians were fleeing into Poland. And you and your family launched your 501c3 non-profit organization, Baranova 27 to continue helping Ukraine. Tall me about Baranova 27 and the work you are doing.
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: Any organization of this sort starts with a nucleus and I was the nucleus. I got stuck in Ukraine and it turned into national news. I was sort of the poster child for this, and people thought, “This is a person we trust because he is constantly on television and we know him from this show (Dancing with the Stars), and he’s not political. My dad, my mom, my brother, everybody immediately felt all this fear and anxiety for me, but we all collectively felt for the Ukrainian people, including people that we know.  I have friends now directly from Ukraine, not Ukrainians in America, so there was a lot of association.  Baranova 27 started immediately.  Initially it all started with GoFundMe where we raised about $400,000.  We have been sending things over by air, by ships in containers; currently we have two big containers on the way over there, but we have now shifted our efforts to trying to provide housing for displaced Ukrainians.  A lot of people are now coming back to Ukraine to help with the war efforts, and so that is our goal now, is building mobile homes.  We are calling them Baranova Villages. They are mobile homes that we buy in Turkey or from local manufacturers in Ukraine, that we put up and turn into little settlements. 
 
Allison Kugel: Have you reached out to Ukraine’s President Zelenskyy to align your efforts?
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: I have connections to the president because he comes from the entertainment world.  Not only that, but I think a few years ago he actually won Dancing with The Stars Ukraine. I have some friends who are his very close friends, but I don’t need his support and I don’t think he needs mine at the moment. He needs all of us to do what we can do.  I actually don’t want to bother him with yet another nonprofit. When there is a moment that I need his participation, I will reach out. Right now, I’m sure he has a lot to deal with, and the idea of nonprofits like mine is to help, not to be helped.  We are the ones providing the help.  I’m not doing this for recognition and neither is my dad or any of the people involved. When I need President Zelenskyy’s support in order to gain something, then I will reach out. Right now I just need to appeal and reach out to people and continue doing the work that we are doing to get likeminded people to be a part of our organization.
 
Allison Kugel: On a lighter note, I heard that you had originally turned down Dancing with the Stars when they first approached you, years ago, to appear in the show’s first season.
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: Dancing with the Stars started their first season, and I remember it was a pilot season during the summertime and the phone rang; “Hey, it’s Dancing with The Stars.”  I literally hung up right away. There were another ten calls and I just kept hanging up. It was not my plan.  It was not what I wanted to do. It was nothing to do with my future. My future had to do with winning the world title (for ballroom dance).
 
Allison Kugel: Being on the show also led you to your wife, Peta.
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: We met on Broadway, but the reality is I would probably not have been on that Broadway production had I not been a certain level dancer on television.  Peta was one of the starring characters in a show called Burn the Floor when it came to the U.S., and it was already a popular production all over the world in countries that were ballroom-dance friendly. It was the first ever ballroom-based stage production that was a worldwide phenom.  When it came to the U.S., they asked me to be one of the stars, just to basically sell tickets in this country, because I’m big-name dancer in this country on television. When Peta and I met she wasn’t really fond of me because she thought, “Who is this celebrity coming in and taking up the whole center stage space?” And in reality, I was just there to sell tickets.  But she saw me for who I truly am on the inside, and she fell in love,  I believe at first site. But she is never going to admit it (laugh). 
 
 
Allison Kugel: And now you’re a veteran and one of the show’s biggest breakout stars. What is your future with Dancing with the Stars?
 
Maksim Chmerkovskiy: Well, my wife is on it, my brother is on it, and my sister-in-law is on it. I feel like I’ll be waiting until one of our kids is joining it, like 20 years from now! I’m in perfect health and I try to stay that way for whatever comes at me.  If Dancing with The Stars comes to me and says, “We want you as a pro. Let’s go back to shake that tail feather one more time,” I’m in. I’m definitely shaking it in other ways and on other platforms, but I have not danced my last dance yet, let’s just put it that way.
 

Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Watch her extended interview with Maksim Chmerkovskiy on YouTube or listen to the extended interview on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com.
 
Learn more about Baranova 27 @ baranova27.org and follow Maksim @maksimc.

Dancing with the Stars favorite Cheryl Burke joins host and entertainment journalist, Allison Kugel, for her most revealing interview, to date, on the latest episode of the Allison Interviews podcast, out today. Cheryl opens up about how her childhood trauma impacted Cheryl’s relationships with men. She also expresses her desire to learn more about her Ashkenazi Jewish roots that were kept from her until a 23andMe test revealed them, and her desire to adopt a child.
 
During the episode, Cheryl also dishes on host Tyra Banks, what type of celebrity makes the worst DWTS partner, which celebrity contestants she still has on speed dial, and how a cheating ex actually led to her being cast on the popular dance competition show that made her famous.
 
And in what could be the celebrity quote of the year, while describing how hard it is to ballroom dance with an “egotistical and narcissistic” celebrity dance partner, Cheryl quips, “Whenever a celebrity lashes out at me and my [choreography], it’s easier now for me to have compassion and empathy for that person, but it’s still f*cked. It’s still really hard to dry hump somebody when you feel disrespected, put it that way, really hard! And you can’t walk out because we both have a job to do, you know?”
 
The following are excerpts from the latest episode of the Allison Interviews podcast with host and entertainment journalist, Allison Kugel. The full podcast episode is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify; and on YouTube. 

On how childhood trauma created a cycle of unhealthy relationships with men:
“To me, love equaled infidelity, love equaled being treated like shit.  Loved equaled physical violence.  Love equaled mental abuse, and I definitely remember these feelings of when a nice man came by, or my dance partner was nice to me, I would think, ‘Yuck.’  I wouldn’t understand why I felt so disgusted with that.  It was because I didn’t have that as a little girl.  I didn’t know that. I thought it was a sign of weakness. I’m a work in progress until the day I die, but really, it’s interesting because now the reason why I have decided not to be active right now in looking for someone to date or being in the dating pool is because I know that if I don’t re-train my brain, I will be attracted to the same person.  I will marry that person who resembles the person before, and it will just be a vicious cycle.” 
 
On what she’s now learned about healthy romantic relationships:
“I saw my mom with my [real] father, because she would make it a point that I still visited my father every year, so she took me to his strip clubs. I saw her cry.  I’ve never seen her so emotional.  Then, with my stepdad, I see her just being.  Being in love does not mean the rollercoaster ride of emotions.  It is actually when everything is… underneath the wave,  underneath it all.  That is true love. The exciting emotional rollercoaster, I’ve had it in every relationship, and clearly it doesn’t last. I think movies and all of these love stories, it’s not real.  That is not real love. The Notebook is not the guideline to how to be in love. That is a movie, and I think we need to take ourselves out of that, because it is horrible. Love has, through television and movies, taught us a fictional story about love and what it is like to be in love, versus what it is like just to be with your partner; your best friend and your soulmate. Maybe you are not having rough sex. Maybe he’s not throwing you across the room, or however you like it, but that is the beauty of a relationship. That is the consistency of a relationship.” 
 
On Discovering Dance at age four:
“My mom discovered dance for me when I was four, and thank God she did, because I sucked at school.  I was not a great student.  I always said, ‘If I was in school now, I would be an amazing student because I’m so curious.’ I just wasn’t that curious when I was a little girl, nor was anything popping out at me as far as [academic] subjects. I really wish to this day that they would have had mental health [classes] in school. Who cares what happened during the Renaissance Era? It’s important, but so is our mental health, exercise, and all of that.  At the end of the day, dance for me was my escape.  My mom put me in every extra- curricular activity you could possibly think of. I played basketball until I started getting nails (laugh), I played piano. I did softball, soccer, horseback riding; and then dance was the thing I never complained about. I did ballet from age four to eleven and literally grew out of my tights at eleven. I just didn’t look like everybody, and I remember trying out for The Nutcracker and getting rejected.  My mom and stepdad decided that we should take up a family sport. We tried golf, which was not a big hit for us (laugh). Then we tried ballroom dancing at a local dance studio. I will never forget seeing [girls] my age dance with boys to Latin music.  I thought, ‘Oh my God.  Sign me up!’  I’m also an addict, so when I say yes to something or do something, it is very excessive.  It is either all or nothing for me.”

​On body dysmorphia and pregnancy:
“Where I’m at right now is I’m not overthinking it right this second, because if I do another season of Dancing with the Stars, I just need to do it. When the time comes, whether this will be my last season or not, I don’t know. Or if I don’t do [another season] I can then consume my brain with those thoughts. I would prefer not to have to put myself in a dance costume and just let myself gain weight. I do believe I will start to love my body more when I don’t have to shove my ass into a dance costume. So, right now it is on hold” 
 
On her desire to adopt a baby:
“One hundred percent, I always thought I was going to adopt. Yes. When I was a little girl, I was like, ‘Maybe I’ll just adopt.’ But I didn’t have body dysmorphia [at that time]. I didn’t know what it was that I had, but it wasn’t because the gaining of the weight. And I have a lot of friends that are adopted.”
 
On what new host Tyra Banks brings to the dynamic of Dancing with the Stars:
“Tyra is someone I watched when I was a little girl. She brings glamour to the show, she really does.  At the same time, she came in at a challenging time.  She came in during Covid, and what’s really difficult for dancers in general is we are really very physical.  We hug people, we don’t do distance very well. I think with Tyra, she came in right at the height of it, so we didn’t have an audience. It was just Tyra, and she had a lot of pressure to become part of a well-oiled machine here on Dancing with the Stars. I love her grand entrances. I love to see what she wears, and I love to see her starting to grow with the show. I seem to have the longest experience when it comes to Dancing with the Stars, as far as camera time goes. It is great to see the show evolve, and I think it’s very important, whether or not Tom Bergeron comes back, I think it’s important that we see these changes to the show. I think there is a comfort knowing that the show’s foundation is still there, but it is nice to throw in some newbies. Whether they survive is another question (laugh).”
 
On her two favorite Dancing with the Stars celebrity dance partners:
“[During DWTS’ third season] Emmitt Smith sat me down and said, ‘How are you going to bank off this show? The show is banking off of you, so what are you going to do?’  He has always been that voice of reason for me.  Jack Osbourne was another one.”

On her podcast, Burke in the Game:
"I have done three Podcasts with iHeart Media.  This is the third one.  The one prior to it was called, Pretty Messed Up with AJ McLean from The Backstreet Boys, who was my partner a year ago on Dancing with the Stars, and with our friend Rene Elizondo. Then there was a Dancing with the Stars [podcast], Dancing with the Stars After Dark where my emotions were running high. With Burke in The Game I have a great relationship with iHeart. I thought, "What if we are just talking about something that just fills your soul up, without the money side, you don’t even think about because honestly that is not where I’m making my bread and butter, but I love it so much. It's selfishly therapeutic, but again I love learning in general.  I also love learning from people like you or anyone I have on the show.  I’m a sponge right now in my life, and I believe that in order to heal I have to be vulnerable and it's easier for me to be vulnerable behind the computer screen or behind the microphone than it is in person. So I’m just going to embrace it." 

About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist with more than three hundred long form celebrity and newsmaker interviews published and syndicated, worldwide. She is author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and host of the new podcast, Allison Interviews, where listeners can tune in to hear the full conversations behind Allison’s print interviews. Watch and embed the entire interview video with Cheryl Burke @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com.
 
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By Allison Kugel
 
Comedian, actress and writer Catherine Cohen is throwback to the likes of musical comedy acts like Carol Burnett, Bette Midler, but add in a twist of ultra-femininity, glamour and unabashed self-love. Cohen spent years cultivating an impeccable musical comedy act that made its way from intimate cabaret theatres in New York’s West Village and the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in London to our television screens as part of a new comedy boom being championed by Netflix, with her hit comedy special, Catherine Cohen: The Twist…? She’s Gorgeous. For audiences, the twist, it seems, is that a one-woman musical cabaret act can be laugh out loud funny with the right comedienne at the helm.
 
In 2019, Catherine won the coveted title of Best Newcomer at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. She’s the co-host of the popular podcast Seek Treatment and author of GOD I FEEL MODERN TONIGHT: Poems From A Gal About Town. Currently filming the hour-long dramady series, While You Were Breeding for the Freeform Network, Catherine took time out of her busy schedule to chat with me about her unique approach to comedy and what she is currently developing for her next act.
 
Allison Kugel: Your Netflix special, Catherine Cohen: The Twist…? She’s Gorgeous, that title grabbed me so hard when I was thumbing through Netflix. 
 
Catherine Cohen: Thank you very much. I’m so glad.
 
Allison Kugel: How did you come up with such an in your face, ironic, and amazing title?  Not ironic in the sense that you’re not beautiful (laugh)…
 
Catherine Cohen: Yeah, I’m thinking, “Okay Allison, are we fighting right off the bat?” (Laughs) The title came from a tweet I did a million years ago. I feel like I will often tweet things, and then if I’m trying to come up with material for a show I’ll go through old tweets and look at [my] thoughts that I’ve had. I was just thinking about movies like She’s All That or just that classic kind of romcom tropes where at the end the nerd is really hot. It’s like, “Yeah, they were hot the whole time. I was kind of playing with that trope, and in my work, I’m always trying to be hyper-confident, deciding I’m hot and making everyone else believe it, because I believe it.  It felt in line with that (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Love it! So, tell me, how does one get a Netflix special? Walk me through that… 
 
Catherine Cohen: I’m sure it is different for everyone, but this was a show that I was doing on my own for five years in New York. I did m show for the first time in 2017 at The Duplex [piano bar] in the West Village, along with [music composer] Henry Koperski, who plays piano and helped me write all the songs. Then we did it at Joe’s Pub in New York. I wanted to take it to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, and right before I was going to do that, I got a message on Facebook from Steve Brill, who directed the Netflix special.  I thought, “Is this spam?”  He said, “Hey, I just directed Adam Sandler’s special, and I really want to do another one. Is that something you are interested in?”  I thought, “Duh!”  But then I thought, “This feels too good to be true.” We ended up meeting for coffee and just totally vibed and had the same vision, so I said, “Let’s totally do it!” Having Steve Brill on my team really helped a lot. He had a relationship with Netflix, so he helped me make it happen. We had a bunch of meetings with them. Robbie Praw, who works at Netflix, came to see my Edinburgh show. I remember the next day we went for a long walk, and we talked about what it could be and what my dreams were, and what would make sense for the platform. Then I got the offer to do the show as a Netflix special in 2019, and we were going to shoot it in 2020… LOL. Now this has become a very long boring story… 
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh). No, no, no! Go ahead…
 
Catherine Cohen: We finally got to shoot it September 2021, and it just came out in March 2022.
We shot it in Joe’s Pub, which was nice because that was a place where we had done early versions of the show and I felt really comfortable. It was a total dream come true. I’m so happy it is out in the world. It’s been many years in the making. 
 
Allison Kugel: Amazing. What is so incredible about your story is that this is a show you have been cultivating and working on for so long, so it was completely organic. It’s not like you got this Netflix offer and then you are writing material for a standup special. And I love the fact that it was done in an intimate setting. It was very different from your typical Netflix standup special for so many reasons. 
 
Catherine Cohen: Thank you so much. I was actually just talking to a friend who said, “Don’t wait to get a book deal. Just write a book, you’ll have it, and at the right time someone will publish it.” I didn’t ever think when I started doing this show, “Obviously, it should be a special.” But it wasn’t like, “Oh, time to scramble and come up with an hour of material.” It was very much a labor of love and came very naturally.  
 
Allison Kugel: You are super smart. You went to Princeton, right?
 
Catherine Cohen: Yes, I did go there. I don’t feel super smart these days, but I guess I did well enough in school to get there, yes. 
 
Allison Kugel: That is incredible to me, because I got through school by the skin of my teeth. 
 
Catherine Cohen: It’s a very bizarre skillset; it almost has no reflection on your intelligence. It’s just like, are you obsessive? Uptight? Really hard on yourself and a fast reader?  

​Allison Kugel: Oh my God! My son is going straight to the Ivy League, because you just described him (laugh). 
 
Catherine Cohen: You just have to memorize a bunch of stuff, be absolutely psychotic, and evil towards yourself, and then maybe you can get in (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Your comedy has a musical element. Do you consider yourself a stand-up, or more of a cabaret performer who is also really funny? 
 
Catherine Cohen: I think I’m a comedienne, an actor, a writer… I do it all.  I’m a singer, but yes, I definitely think I’m a stand-up who does a cabaret show. The jokes in between the songs, I will do those around town as just normal stand-up shows, and stuff like that. I like to do it all. 
 
 
Allison Kugel: When you were putting this show together in the beginning, were you working out your comedy set and then you decided to add the music? How did this very unique show come together?
 
Catherine Cohen: I had been doing improv and sketch comedy at UCB (Upright Citizens Brigade) in New York, and saw people doing stand-up and I thought, “This looks fun, but I’m scared.” I started doing it and really enjoyed it, but I really missed singing because I grew up doing musical theater. So, I thought, “Is there a way to write a comedy song that isn’t really embarrassing?” I met this amazingly talented pianist Henry Koperski and said, “Can we get together? I want to try to write a song, and I want to run some ideas by you.” Pretty much as soon as we got together, it felt very magical. It felt natural, and we just started writing a bunch of songs together and I said, “I think I have enough to do a full show. Will you play with me for a full show?” We’ve been on that journey ever since. 
 
Allison Kugel: You have an interesting background. Your dad is Jewish, your mom is Catholic, and you grew up in Houston, Texas? For starters, are there many Jewish people in Houston? 
 
Catherine Cohen: (Laugh) I think there are, but I did not meet very many of them because, as you said, my mom is Catholic, and we were all confirmed Catholic. We went to very religious private schools where everyone was very evangelical, and it was totally damaging and creepy.  Thankfully, I went to college and met a bunch of Jewish people and thought, “These are my friends. This is my vibe. I forgot I had this side.” 
 
Allison Kugel: So, you felt more of a kinship with the Jewish part of yourself?
 
Catherine Cohen: Definitely. I just hated all the arbitrary rules, the way the Evangelical church teaches woman to be so ashamed of everything; to hide their bodies, their personalities, and be submissive to their partners. It was just so against everything I had ever felt, and everything my parents had taught me. My parents didn’t teach me any of that. At one point I did get really into it, because it was intoxicating. You’re going on ski trips, meeting boys from different schools, so it was like, “Church is cool. Church is fun.” Then you realized you were kind of brainwashed into believing things you didn’t stand for. 
 
Allison Kugel: How does your mom feel about that?  If she sent you to Catholic school, I would imagine that she was all in. 
 
Catherine Cohen: I think her mother was very religious, and she did it because it meant a lot to her mother. I think my parents were always supportive of whatever I wanted to do, whatever I believed, which was very lucky, obviously. 
 
Allison Kugel: Nowadays it is very common to have mixed religious households or people celebrating Christmas and Chanukah, as they say. So, generally speaking, people don’t think very much of a mixed religious household because it is so common now. But from the perspective of a kid growing up in a home where you have a Jewish parent and you have a Catholic parent, what does that feel like from the perspective of a child? 
 
Catherine Cohen: I think it felt like my dad wasn’t very religious and we were just doing what my mom wanted to do, which would sometimes result in us saying, “Dad, please don’t make us go. Why do we have to go?” He would say, “Because you have to go.”  I would say, “This doesn’t make any sense.” I remember one time we were all waiting in line for Communion, which my dad wasn’t going to take, because he hadn’t been Baptized or had his first Communion, and he snuck it. My mom got really mad. My dad then said, “This is so ridiculous.  I deserve this. Everyone deserves the spirit of Christ.” He took Communion even though my mom was mad at him. They are both very smart, funny, supportive, and open minded, so I feel like when I was younger it was a big deal, but eventually we weren’t forced to go to church. One of my brothers got really into exploring our Jewish side one year and wanted to learn all of the Hannukah prayers. But I feel like I got a taste of both. It’s nice.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you consider yourself to be a spiritual person at all.
 
Catherine Cohen: Definitely. I believe in God. I don’t know what God is, but to me there is a God. I’m endlessly feeling aware of synchronicities, and I believe everything happens for a reason, and that the universe is taking care of us. All of that kind of stuff I love. My friend just got me a tarot card deck for my birthday, and I’ve been taking some quiet time to draw a tarot card in the morning and journal and think, “What is going on with the planets.” Honestly, I will believe anything anyone tells me.
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh)
 
Catherine Cohen: Literally, I say, “Okay, that sounds great.” How stupid.  I feel like it’s so insane when someone says, “That’s definitely not real.” I think, “How do you know anything, babe?”
 
Allison Kugel: Same.  I think it is the height of arrogance when someone says that something is definitely not real. We are limited by our five senses and there is so much more in the universe. How can you possibly say with assurance that something is not real?  You can say that you don’t know. That makes sense. But you can’t say it is not real. If you could travel back in time and have an effect on any famous historical event, or even just bear witness to it, where would you go and what would you attempt to change or bear witness to?
 
Catherine Cohen: I’m laughing, because I’m actively not trying to change the world. I’m just trying to enjoy my life and have a good time. I actually did past life regression therapy, recently.  Have you done that?
 
Allison Kugel: I did get hypnotized and do that once.
 
 
Catherine Cohen: In my first past life I was an ugly old lady who made bread, and she wasn’t allowed to go to the ball unless she brought a loaf of bread. I would actually go back in time to that first life and say, “Girl, you deserve to go to the ball, and you don’t have to bring bread. Just bring yourself.” That is where I would go. In my other past life, I was this big warrior soldier caring for my blonde wife, which is interesting because I’m not usually into blondes. Then I had a past life where I was a nurse caring for a soldier in a war who was actually my boyfriend in real life.
 
Allison Kugel: So, you would go back and alter your own past lives…
 
Catherine Cohen: And I would have to say this… I don’t think about the past much besides thinking about the fashion. I think about going back to the 1970s or dancing at Studio54.  Sometimes I wish I was part of that era, before social media, where you can just be an artist and a little freak. Just dance around and not have everything documented and measured against the success of your peers. I’m sure people throughout history have been very hard on themselves, but I feel like it is especially hard these days, being constantly bombarded with the accomplishments of everyone you’ve ever met, or even ever heard of. It is exhausting.    

​Allison Kugel: I can definitely say the same thing about my coming-of-age decade, which was the 1990s. I’m 47. It was so much freer in that way.
 
Catherine Cohen: You look so young. What is your secret?
 
Allison Kugel: I work hard at it.  That is my secret. Skincare is my religion (laughs).  And lots of nutrition. Tons of fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, water and sunscreen!
 
Catherine Cohen: I know. I finally started doing daily sunscreen.  For so long I was so bad about it, but now I’m 30. There is no time and I have very fair skin.
 
Allison Kugel: Also, no drinking, no drugs, no smoking cigarettes. No nothing. Sorry!
 
Catherine Cohen: Have you always been totally sober? 
 
Allison Kugel:  Yes, pretty much. I don’t touch alcohol or drugs.
 
Catherine Cohen: I definitely like a little bit of that stuff (laugh). I definitely enjoy that stuff sometimes. I actually, just last night, started the process of freezing my eggs. I just started the medications, so I’m feeling [weird]. First of all, I’m not drinking and I’m drinking lots of water, but I can’t exercise. I can only walk, and I’m feeling out of my body, but sort of a beautiful human experience, I guess.
 
Allison Kugel: So, when freezing your eggs, you can’t be extremely physically active during the process at all?
 
Catherine Cohen: Yes, which I didn’t expect. You’re getting your ovaries huge, for lack of better scientific terminology, and so there is danger of twisting or damaging them because they are so big. I’d been trying to spend more time at the gym, but now I’m just going on slow strolls, and I’ll think about the spiritual questions that you’re asking me.  
 
Allison Kugel: You’ll come up with a better answer tomorrow and you’ll be kicking yourself, but don’t. Don’t beat yourself up (laughs).
 
Catherine Cohen: I’m sure. I’m sure. 
 
Allison Kugel: If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you and why have you opted to freeze your eggs?
 
Catherine Cohen: I’m 30. I have polycystic ovarian syndrome, so my cycle is very irregular. I don’t get regular periods and I have been told it might be difficult in the future to get pregnant. I’m definitely not ready at all, so I figured I have some time this summer. I have some money saved, so why not do it. Then I can just not have it on my mind and enjoy the next five years of my life and revisit the matter at a later date.  
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your show some more. Are you still touring? 
 
Catherine Cohen: No, I’m not. As soon as the [Netflix] special came out, I was done with that material. I’m doing all new stuff. I did some shows in London. I did some shows in Austin and LA, and now I’m just working on new [material]. I’m going back to the UK this summer. I’m going to do some dates at the Edinburgh Festival, and I think I might do an encore performance of The Twist. But emotionally, I’m ready to move on creatively. 
 
Allison Kugel: What is your creative process?
 
Catherine Cohen: I was just sitting down this morning thinking, “Okay, girl. You’re so all over the place.” I think what is so hard is that any kind of creative work requires slots of time, and it requires getting bored and reflecting.  It is so difficult to do that when we are constantly bombarded with emails, calls, and obligations. I do a weekly show in the East Village where I will try out new material every week. It’s a great way of making sure I’m trying out some ideas.  With songs, I’ll usually sit down with Henry or another musician. I’ll come in with lyrics or a melody and we will try to throw something together. It’s a lot of improvising, and then with jokes, it’s just a lot of talking, looking at tweets, and seeing what sticks.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you find that your greatest ideas come to you when you are not trying to come up with material? 
 
Catherine Cohen: Absolutely. 
 
Allison Kugel: Okay, so give me an example of something that you would be doing when an idea strikes; something PG-rated. 
 
Catherine Cohen: (Laugh) I was just thinking, everything I say is so disgusting. 
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh)
 
Catherine Cohen: I’m very big on the idea that you can’t force it. I have a new song called, “Blame it on the Moon,” about blaming all my problems on astrology and saying it’s not my fault at all. I’m a mess or I’m rude or whatever, because of the planets. I think that phrase popped into my head when I was just lying in bed one night, and so I wrote it down. If I wake up at 4am or 6am and I’m lying in bed, my mind starts racing and I’m like a genius, and then it all goes away. 
 
Allison Kugel: Those genius moments, I feel like they’re not inside you, they come through you. It’s like you channel something inadvertently and then you better record or put it down on paper, because just as fast as it came through you, it can evaporate if you don’t put it down. 
 
Catherine Cohen: I totally agree. With everything I do I think I’m literally so talented and a genius, but I think that is just because of luck. It’s not mine. Things just come to me. It’s what’s in my heart at the moment. I didn’t put it there. Who knows who did? Life is all completely random, and it’s like a balance of being confident and realizing I have nothing to do with any of this. 
 
Allison Kugel: There is a wisdom in knowing that it didn’t come from you.  It came through you and having a healthy respect for that. Once you made the deal with Netflix, do they micro-manage everything, or do they just have you do your thing, and then they air it on their platform?
 
Catherine Cohen: I’m sure it is different for everyone. In my experience, the show was already done, and they had seen it. The director and I had the same vision, so they just gave us a budget, we had a production company come on board, and we just shot the show. That was pretty much it. I got to be in the editing room. I was one of the producers, so I got to make all the calls and I felt very supported and lucky. Steve is such an amazing director. He accomplished visually what I was seeing in my mind but lacked the skillset to do on my own. It was a seamless process, because as you said, it had just been an organic thing of, I had this piece I was ready to share and then it was just capturing it for the camera. 
 
Allison Kugel: Will you do another comedy special for Netflix at some point?
 
Catherine Cohen: I hope so, if they ask. Who knows? I don’t know how this works. I would love to do another one. We will see what the universe brings my way. I very much feel like with any of this showbiz stuff, no one knows until you’re doing it, because no one tells you and there are no rules. You work on things that disappear, or you do something like this where you made this [show] and all of a sudden, it’s on Netflix, so you never know. 
 
Allison Kugel: I used to always say that I never know why people say no, and I never know why people say yes. So, I just don’t analyze it.
 
Catherine Cohen: That is a good way to be. It is hard to do. 
 
Allison Kugel: That is what I’ve done. It’s like “Oh, you want to do this?  Great.” Or “Oh, you don’t? Okay.” 
 
Catherine Cohen: Exactly. I feel very strong. I was just pitching a project and got a lot of “No’s,” and I felt like, “Okay, this has nothing to do with me, ultimately. It’s out of my control.” 
 
Allison Kugel: From what I’ve studied and all the people I have interviewed, one thing that everybody has in common is that they were all so set on a vision that nothing could interrupt that vision. There might be a little blip here or there, but otherwise it was like tunnel vision. 
 
Catherine Cohen: I definitely connect with that.  I think, “Of course I’m going to make a fabulous TV show, movie, or whatever. I don’t know when or how, but of course.”

Allison Kugel:  You should watch the TV show, The Food That Built America.  I believe you can watch it on The History Channel or Hulu.
 
Catherine Cohen: What is that about?
 
Allison Kugel: It goes into how the guys that made Heinz ketchup, Hershey’s chocolate, Kellogg’s cereal, Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups, Birds Eye Frozen Foods invented their brands. Nothing was getting in their way. I was floored, because I’m like you went broke several times, this or that didn’t work, your factory burned down, and you kept going?  It’s amazing.
 
Catherine Cohen: I don’t know where the belief comes from, but it is definitely there. It has to be there.
 
Allison Kugel: That’s what it takes. Netflix has this new brand called Netflix Is A Joke.
 
Catherine Cohen: That is their comedy arm. They just did a big festival in LA, which was super fun. I did a bunch of shows.  It was like two weeks ago, and it was great. 
 
Allison Kugel: I love that they are supporting the artform of comedy, and that they created that division. 
 
Catherine Cohen: It is amazing. I feel so lucky they gave their huge platform to something that I do, which has been described as very niche, though I think it is universal.
 
Allison Kugel: The style of your show feels niche and extremely unique to you, although I think it has universal appeal.  Apart from you, the only other name that comes to mind would be Carol Burnett.
 
Catherine Cohen:  Love it…
 
Allison Kugel: The way that she would sing a little, dance a little, and do jokes. 
 
Catherine Cohen: Thank you. I think when you are doing it all the time, it feels different to you.
 
Allison Kugel: What is the greatest advice you have ever received?
 
Catherine Cohen: There are so many good ones. One that I think about a lot is that you can only control yourself. I think about it a lot in terms of romantic relationships. You can’t force someone to love you, and it’s the same with creative partnerships. If it’s not working, it’s not working. Just trusting that you can only do what you want to do, and you can’t really concern yourself with or take personally why other people do what they do. It is very difficult, because I take everything personally. 
 
Allison Kugel: Who gave you that advice?
 
Catherine Cohen:  My friend’s mom. Shout out to her (laugh). I think whatever you are worried about, if it involves someone else, it has nothing to do with you.
 
Allison Kugel: What is something about yourself that continues to be a work in progress?
 
Catherine Cohen: (Laugh) Everything. Literally, everything. The main thing that I haven’t begun to deal with and don’t even know how, is that the way I talk to myself is so mean, and I would never talk to my friends this way. I don’t know how to begin unlearning it, but I don’t know how life would be if I wasn’t constantly telling myself I wasn’t enough. 
 
Allison Kugel: Do you think that is a driving force that propelled you to getting where you are so far? 
 
Catherine Cohen: Yes, definitely. I’m constantly convinced that if I wasn’t successful, I would be inherently unworthy. My boyfriend told me I wasn’t allowed to use the word “loser” anymore.  I would say, “They are a loser,” or “I’m a loser.” He says, “What are you even saying?  Don’t use the word loser anymore.”  I’m constantly convinced that I have to be the most successful person in the world, or I’m a loser. It’s a very Princeton mentality. I actually just went to my college reunion last weekend. I was just thinking about how hard on myself I’ve been for so long. It does often yield results, though it’s taking a toll, so I’m trying to figure out how to be productive without losing my mind.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you think, “If I stop being hard on myself, I may not continue to succeed,” so it’s almost like a superstition?
 
Catherine Cohen: Absolutely. Since the [Netflix] special came out, I’ve been trying to rest, refocus, and figure out what I want to do, which makes sense, but I feel guilty.  Like, I haven’t done anything today. I’m just looking at my phone, but then I try to remind myself that the way I got to making the first show was sitting around on my phone being bored, and I had some kind of creative spark. 
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Catherine Cohen to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Catherine Cohen: Wow, these are really getting into it!  I came here to learn, I don’t know, to chill out? To slow down, chill out, and that it is just for fun. It’s just a game, so enjoy it. To teach? Literally, to teach everyone that they are absolutely fabulous. You’re deserving of everything. You should laugh, you should live. You deserve all of the extravagant things that you want. Every day should be glamourous and fabulous, and don’t take “No” for an answer. I sound like a total hedonist, but maybe I am. 
 
Allison Kugel: No. So even the wardrobe, the set, and everything in your Netflix special is very girly girl, frilly, pink, and over the top glam. I’m guessing it’s an extension of your personal philosophy and how you see the world.
 
Catherine Cohen: Yes. Clothes are so important to me. The way people dress and decorate their rooms, and the way we choose to express ourselves visually, I’m obsessed.  I’ve always been drawn to very elaborate over-the-top fashion and styles. I’m also hyper-feminine, which I feel like I hadn’t seen a ton of with standup [comedy]. You see a lot of jeans or hoodies, and obviously, I’m wearing something incredible. 
 
Allison Kugel: It is so funny that you say that, because I had this really stupid thought in my twenties that I could either be funny or pretty, but not both, so I chose pretty (laugh).  It’s stupid.  I don’t know why I thought that. What is that about?
 
Catherine Cohen: I think it’s what we are told. I think because I was not considered pretty, or because, like I sing in my special, “Boys never wanted to kiss me,” I thought, “Well, I better be funny to get attention.” We are raised in this world where we are supposed to pick a lane, and I think I, and many other women, are saying that is absurd.  Look at us LOLing and looking absolutely gorgeous. 
 
Allison Kugel: And by the way, you are very pretty.  I don’t know where you got the idea that you weren’t.
 
Catherine Cohen: I don’t know. I think everyone has their insecurities, especially when your younger sense of self-worth was so directly tied to male attention and affection, and I didn’t get any of it. Thank God!  I would be so boring if I had just decided to worry about that stuff instead of myself. 
 
Allison Kugel: I hear you have a TV show coming out for Freeform Network. Tell me about it…
 
Catherine Cohen: Yes, I’m so excited. I shot this pilot. This amazing TV writer named Kristin Newman wrote this memoir a few years ago called, “What I Was Doing While You Were Breeding,” about her decision to end a long-term relationship and travel the world as all of her friends were settling down. 
 
Allison Kugel: And having kids. 
 
Catherine Cohen: Exactly, breeding. She has turned the memoir into a TV show. We shot the pilot in the fall, and we just found out that it got picked up, so we are going to do a full season of it for Freeform and we start shooting sometime later this year. I play the lead girl’s best friend and the lead character is played by Chelsea Frye, who is so funny and talented, and we’ve become totally obsessed with each other. I feel really lucky to get to work with her for a few months, instead of shooting something and never seeing each other again. 
 
Stream Catherine Cohen: The Twist…? She’s Gorgeous on Netflix and follow Catherine Cohen @catccohen and Catherine-Cohen.com.
 
Watch or listen to the extended interview with Catherine Cohen on the Allison Interviews podcast @ YouTube, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and AllisonInterviews.com.

Photos courtesy of Aaron Ricketts/ Netflix

Actor Peter Facinelli is best known for his role as Dr. Carlisle Cullen in the blockbuster Twilight Saga films, and his role as Dr. Fitch Cooper on the hit Showtime series, Nurse Jackie, which aired from 2009-2015. His latest film, The Unbreakable Boy (out later this year) is adapted from the New York Times bestselling book of the same name, in which Facinelli is a producer on the film, and also plays the role of Preacher Rick.
 
The Unbreakable Boy is the true story of Austin LeRette (played by Jacob Laval), a boy born with a rare genetic brittle bone disease, autism, and an unbreakable infectious spirit that makes the people around him better. The film also stars Patricia Heaton (Everybody Loves Raymond), Meghann Fahy, Gavin Warren, Zachary Levi, and Drew Powell.

​The following are excerpts from the latest episode of the Allison Interviews podcast with host and entertainment journalist, Allison Kugel, interviewing Peter Facinelli. In this interview, Peter talks what went wrong with ex-wife Jennie Garth, what he’s vowed to get right with his fiancée Lily Anne Harrison, setting healthy boundaries, parenting issues, and the personality trait that often leaves him embarrassed.

​On what went wrong in his marriage to ex-Jennie Garth and what he’s learned from it:
“Every relationship is different.  When you’re with this [new] person, you are going to respond differently than I would have with my ex-wife (actress Jennie Garth). I think in relationships, in the beginning they are wonderful. You have this honeymoon period and it’s fantastic. Slowly, over time, somebody might say something that is kind of hurtful. The other person might permit it and then they get into a habit. So, bad things can become habitual, the way you start to treat each other, giving the other person permission or an allowance to talk to you in a certain way. Everyone has a bad day, but if that person talks to you in a certain way or does something, then all of a sudden they feel they have permission to do that because you didn’t say, ‘That hurt my feelings.’ You didn’t speak up.”
 
“All of a sudden it gets habitual and it grows, and then you get resentful.  When you try to change those habits…. I was actually telling a friend about this.  A relationship is like a tree. In the beginning, if it starts to bend you can correct it, but if you allow it to continue on that path there is nothing you can do to bend it back, because it has already grown in that way and solidified. “
 
On how he is protecting his relationship with fiancée Lily Anne Harrison:
“I think when Lily and I got together it was so wonderful and I said to her, ‘I really want to hold onto this.  I want to be really careful with each other, and let’s really work hard every day to not get into bad habits.’  It has been six years and I’m really proud of the relationship that we have, because we rarely ever raise our voice to each other ever.  If we have a disagreement about something, we talk it through.  I don’t fight with her.  Arguments don’t happen, because it’s unnecessary.  Nobody wins in an argument when you’re yelling.” 
 
“[We are] really careful not to hurt feelings and make it okay to do that. Just being super careful to treat each other with respect, to treat each other with kindness, and be honest with each other at all costs. Once you start not doing that and feel you have permission to not do that, all of a sudden those arguments, yelling, it becomes habitual and corrodes the relationship.  I would say that is what I learned, is to just not get into bad habits.”
 
On whether he talks to himself out loud when he thinks no one is looking:
“It’s embarrassing, but yes, all the time to the point where my daughter came to me once and said, ‘My friend’s parents said they saw you at the airport and they said you must have been running lines or something because you were talking to yourself.’ (Laugh) I thought, ‘I wasn’t running lines. I was really talking to myself.’”
 
“I’ll also do it when I get angry, like if something happens or if somebody bumps into you and they are rude, and you didn’t respond.  I’ll then say to myself, ‘Hey buddy, get out of my way.’  I’ll start re-enacting the scene. I’ll go through five scenarios that never happened. I’ll think, ‘Maybe I should have said this, or maybe I should have said that.’ I’m literally acting out these scenes.  I wish we had a take-two in life.  Don’t you wish you could say, ‘Can I do that again?’”
 
On learning to establish healthier boundaries:
“What I’m still working on is boundaries with people. I’m such a giver and I give too much.  Then when I give too much, it gives people permission, or they feel like they have a right to take. Then whatever I’m giving, if I say, ‘I can’t give that right now,’ I usually get attacked for it.  When somebody is getting something all the time and then you say, ‘No,’ and set the boundaries too late, then they get upset.  If you set the boundaries in the beginning, they won’t get upset. But if you give, give, give something and then say, ‘I can’t give that anymore,’ because it’s just exhausting, all of a sudden they are angry because you have always given.  Like, ‘How dare you?’ Learning boundaries is something I’m still working on.”
 
On his earliest professional goal as an actor:
“I always wanted to be an actor when I was younger, but telling my parents I wanted to be an actor was like telling them I wanted to go to Mars.  They are both from Italy.  I’m a first generation American.  We knew nobody in the business. My first goal was to get a paycheck. I thought to myself, ‘You know, I’m going to do this and even if it takes me until 70 years old, I’m going to do this until I get a paycheck.’ Getting a paycheck was my only goal.”
 
On losing his daughter, Fiona, in Italy when she was just eight years old:
“I remember when my daughter was eight, and I lost her.  We were up in these mountains in Italy and I went to throw something out. I turned around and thought she went into this restaurant with my parents, because we were out in front of the restaurant. I went inside, sat down with the rest of my family, we were about ten of us. I just thought she was with one of her sisters. When everyone started sitting down, I said, ‘Where’s Fiona?’  They said, ‘I don’t know.’ I hadn’t seen her in like fifteen minutes. I’m searching the restaurant, and she was eight [at the time]. It was terrifying.”
 
On the advice he gives his, now, young adult daughters:
“My daughter is now 23 and she was asking me for advice the other day. I told her, ‘Honestly, I don’t know if that is the right thing, so you have to go with your gut. This is what I would do, but you are you. You really have to decide for yourself, because me giving you that advice, I don’t know if I’m right.’  I’m having an adult conversation with her and wanting to help her, but also wanting her to go with her gut. At the end of the day, it was a job she had gotten offered and she didn’t know if she should take it.  If she took it and was miserable, then I gave her bad advice. I told her, you have to search inside, and really, you have the answer.”
About Journalist and Podcast Host Allison Kugel
Allison Kugel is a veteran entertainment journalist with close to four hundred long-form celebrity and newsmaker interviews published and syndicated, worldwide. She is author of the memoir, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record, and host of the podcast, Allison Interviews, where listeners can tune in to hear the full conversations behind Allison’s print interviews. Watch and embed the entire interview video with Peter Facinelli @YouTube. Listen to the audio podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonInterviews.com.
 
The full podcast episode is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify; and on YouTube. 

​SOURCE ALLISON INTERVIEWS PODCAST

Dianna Agron Talks Mayim Bialik, Naya Rivera, Indie Filmmaking
By Allison Kugel
 
Dianna Agron took television fans on an emotional ride playing complex popular girl, Quinn Fabray, on the hit television series Glee, which ran for seven seasons on FOX. The wildly popular show won multiple Emmy, Golden Globe, People’s Choice, and Teen Choice Awards during its tenure. Throughout the series, Agron’s character portrayed a foray of teen girl issues ranging from the common to the more dramatic. From cattiness and romance drama to matters of celibacy, teen pregnancy, and adoption; nothing was off the table. It speaks to Agron’s depth and range as an actress.
 
Since wrapping the show in 2015, Agron has gone on to build her resume in films, including winner of this year’s Independent Spirit John Cassavetes Award-winning film, Shiva Baby, and most recently, As They Made Us, starring Agron, alongside Dustin Hoffman, Candice Bergen and Simon Helberg, and written and directed by Mayim Bialik.
 
Allison Kugel: I’m used to you as a brunette in this movie and here you are back to blonde-ish.
 
Diana Agron:  I know, and I’m going back to brunette for another role in a month.
 
Allison Kugel: How did you like having the dark hair?
 
Diana Agron: I do like it. I think that I always welcome the opportunity to change for a project.
 
Allison Kugel: Did you know Mayim Bialik, personally, before her film, As They Made Us, came to you?
 
Diana Agron: I did not. I knew who she was by her work, but we didn’t have a personal relationship prior to this film.
 
Allison Kugel: How did the role of Abigail come to you?
 
Diana Agron: It was through my team. I immediately responded to the script and the character.  There is a lot of personal truth to my life, and it was being expressed through this piece. Mayim and I had a Zoom chat in which I felt that we connected deeply in our shared truths, but I had no idea if she felt that I was going to be right for the part. Within the hour I had the call that I was receiving the offer, and it just felt like a complete whirlwind and a surprise. I made my manager tell me the news again, because I thought, perhaps, I had heard him wrong. It was very sweet. 
 
Allison Kugel: The writing in this film was so good that you forget there is a script involved.
 
Diana Agron: Yes. I think that is what I responded to as well, this very naturalistic feel.  It felt very embedded in truth and experience we kind of shared. We had a very strong open dialogue about grief, loss, love, and complicated relationships. Mayim had really incorporated in such a full spectrum of these emotions and how that works through individuals and a family, collectively. It did feel very real, and I obviously can speak personally about the elements that were very real for me. I think everybody brought their own truths to the table and incorporated those into their characters and into the story.
 
Allison Kugel: I can relate to it very much. I had a very complicated relationship with my dad, who is now living with us. It’s a strange thing, because I remember growing up, and especially in my teens and twenties, I thought, “I can’t wait to get away.” We were constantly bumping heads. Now it has kind of come full circle and he’s become a much gentler person in his older years. I’ve become much more understanding of human nature as I have gotten older, so you kind of meet somewhere in the middle.
 
Dianna Agron: I can understand that completely.
 
Allison Kugel: On another note, you are Jewish, Mayim is Jewish, I’m also Jewish. We are not always portrayed accurately or reasonably in the media, whether in television or film.  Like other minority groups, we are often made into caricatures. In As They Made Us, you see the complex humanity of a group of people, and what ties it all together that goes across all people of all different groups. That was another thing that I really enjoyed about this film. What is your opinion of how Jewish American’s are typically portrayed?
 
Dianna Agron: It’s interesting that you bring that up, because that was one of the things that I loved so much about this storytelling, is my character’s connection to her Judaism and how that is expressed with her young children as she is teaching them, and how that part of her family aspect is just very causally there. It’s just who they are and it’s a part of her daily life. Obviously, there is a strong connection that she has to it, but that’s not saying or doing so much.  It’s just part of her character and part of her life. I do think that sometimes Jewish storytelling as it shows up in media is much more specific about either the Holocaust or you see it in Curb Your Enthusiasm, and this has been brought up and critiqued about Jews in film, where maybe one half of the couple is Jewish, but the other one isn’t. There are just so many ways with how it is expressed in the media. Not to say that anything is necessarily right or wrong. I think it’s project to project, but I did like that this was just an underlying element to who she was and that it just seemed so normal.
 
Allison Kugel: Not that the Curb Your Enthusiasms of the world are bad, I think they are great, but we need stuff like this too.
 
Dianna Agron: Yes, I think it does add to a balance. When I was promoting [the film] Shiva Baby, that whole film centers around one woman’s experience at a shiva, mourning somebody that she kind of knows, and was brought to it by her parents. That was so interesting because everyone who was interviewing us about that film had said to us, “This is like my Italian family, this is like my Greek family,” and so on. We all come from different cultural backgrounds, but there are common truths to dynamics with family, friends, or communities, which are so universal. It’s been nice to be part of both films and have that kind of storytelling be incorporated into my work. 

Allison Kugel: Although the material of As They Made Us is heavy at times, there are some really funny moments.
 
Dianna Agron: Especially Candice [Bergen]. She made me laugh so consistently throughout filming. Her delivery is perfectly spot on. And she is not trying to be [funny].  Her character is really just expressing things how she sees fit, which is so funny, because I think it is very understandable that everyone grieves in a different way. Some people say things that are wildly inappropriate to the moment, and it just feels so real and honest.
 
Allison Kugel: Towards the end of the film, Dustin Hoffman. who plays your father, his character passes away and there was a moment after the funeral that I loved where Candice Bergen’s character, your mother, starts gossiping about people that were at the funeral. Your character, Abigail, gets mad at her. I actually said this out loud to my screen as I was watching.  I said, “That’s how she’s grieving! She’s gossiping to take her mind off what just happened.”
 
Dianna Agron: Totally. 
 
Allison Kugel: I think that is actually why people gossip at times, to kind of take our minds off the war in the Ukraine, the pandemic, all of these heavy things that are going on in the world. We need to focus on something else. We need to make it light.
 
Dianna Agron: Sometimes at the expense of other people (laugh). That is so not my experience. I feel it’s the last thing I ever want to indulge in or engage in, but I so understand. That was the thing.  All of the characters are so human and then you have these incredible actors bringing such humanity to the screen in this way, in this story.  I had done a film with Candice about thirteen years ago where I also played her daughter. It was so wonderful to reconnect with her and to connect with her as an adult. I was such a young thing then. That I really enjoyed, and she is just as delightful and just as hilarious as ever. 
 
Allison Kugel: Was there a funny moment on set you can share where you had to kind of like break the tension and just have some fun in between takes?
 
Dianna Agron: I can’t point to one exact moment, but I will say that every day we were experiencing this wealth of storytelling because we would ask Candice and Dustin about specific projects or what growing up in LA was like back then. They were just so generous and giving. I typically find that most actors love to share, on and off screen. It’s not one or the other.  It usually is both. There were just many personal moments that they were sharing where you couldn’t believe that the first director I had was so and so and the most famous line in that movie wasn’t originally there and it was just found on the last day of filming and that was so special to be able to really dig in and ask them anything that we wanted. Simon, Mayim, and I were like, “Okay, and then this project, and tell me about this.” I had no expectations.  I thought maybe they would want to go and be by themselves in between set ups and take rests. They were always there and game, and just so much a part of sharing at all given times. Then Candice has this very sweet dog Bruce who was always around and every now and then he would pipe up in a scene and we would have to relocate him.  It was really such a joyful experience despite being in an enormous amount of pain and sadness in moments on set.
 
Allison Kugel: What is Mayim Bialik like as a director?
 
Dianna Agron: What was so obvious to me after our first chat was that she had already thought about this project, and these characters in this world, so thoroughly that we could have gone and made that film the next day. It was so obvious that it was a story she could tell so beautifully. She really hired such a beautiful team of people that worked so well together. There was a feeling of ease, even though we were this kind of tiny but mighty crew.  Independent filmmaking isn’t necessarily as glamourous or cushioned, but it is my preferred way to work. I love eliminating all the frills. It never felt like we weren’t able to accomplish our goals for the day, which was such a testament to how well-organized Mayim was, and how well thought out and planned every day of shooting was. I loved watching Mayim’s reactions to things.  I was always looking to her to see how she was experiencing what we were filming. 
 
Allison Kugel: Some of the subject matter of this film was about dying and death. What is your take on that part of the human experience? Where do you think we go? What do you think death is all about?
 
Dianna Agron: I’ve been dealing with many years of my father’s own illness (Dianna’s father suffers from an aggressive form of Multiple Sclerosis) and watching that move through his body. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t imagine there is an enormous amount of time that we have left with him, which is really not what you would wish for at all, and very deeply sad. It has placed a lot of importance on the time that we have. He’s been sick more years of my life than he has been well. The way I have had to process that, is that while I would have wanted the version of him, I knew as a very young person to last much longer, I am so lucky to have experienced many other versions of him and still have access to him and connect with him. It takes a toll in many different forms, your cognition, your physical health, etc. Death has been prevalent in my life, because I’ve lost many people that I loved, and it always feels like it wasn’t the right time. I, unfortunately, lost many people when I was very young, and my father is very ill and only sixty-six years old. I pride myself in being very present with the moment with my family and my friends and knowing that your health and wellness are not guaranteed. That centers me a lot.  As [death] relates to everything on the Other Side, it’s not something I often think about, but I’m sure that will be more prevalent the older I get. 

Allison Kugel: Soon we will be coming up on the two-year anniversary of Naya Rivera’s passing. Can you tell me what was unique about your friendship with her that was different from your other Glee castmates, or even from any other friendship in your life?
 
Dianna Agron: Naya was my first friend on set. We were quite isolated, because we weren’t involved in the entire pilot. We had our very brief moments in the pilot, and everybody else was very involved in the singing, dancing, and all the rehearsals. So, she was my point person and we kind of instilled each other with confidence in those moments. She was just very unique and special in the way she carried herself with such confidence and certainty. If she believed in something, or in you as a person, she would always uplift those ideas. She was very, very strong in a way that I think I have adapted to moments in my own life that have been quite difficult and the adversity you can overcome if you experience it at a young age that makes you more resilient. She had that strength in spades. Any strength that I had she had ten times more of it.  It was really inspiring and nurturing to be around. She was also wickedly funny and had the best comedic timing. She is one of the people that I speak about when I say it’s so strange to think she is not here. She had years and years of love and gifts to give people, and I was so lucky to know her.
 
Allison Kugel: That is beautiful. What do you think you came into this life as Dianna Agron to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Dianna Agron: Whoa, not an easy question! I feel particularly connected to storytelling. When I say that, I don’t mean as it relates to my job. I feel so connected to the human experience, and that is something that has always drawn me in. I lived in a hotel when I was younger because my dad was the general manager of a few hotels, and I would witness and question… there was a complete, big world of people coming in and out of my environment from everywhere in the world. As I started being able to travel more freely and explore different cultures and people, it is something that really interests me. I feel much better when I’m learning new things about new people and cultures. I think that has let to also me wanting to be a storyteller and connect with people on that level. I think that if that is something I can share and encourage in other people to be really open minded and to look outside of their own worlds and communities.  Go bigger and deeper to find something really meaningful. 
 
Allison Kugel: Interesting. What is the best advice you have ever been given?
 
Dianna Agron: I don’t know if it is the best advice, but it was certainty very helpful to hear as it pertains to my life and my career. I had a colleague say to me, “This path of yours is not about what you say “yes” to. It is more about what you say “no” to. I think as you are receiving gifts, be it jobs, opportunities, etc., it can feel difficult to say no to something, because you are so happy to be there and to be part of the conversation. I think being really honest with yourself about what serves you and how you can organize your time, when you really drop into those truths, so much more magic is available because you’re being so authentically yourself and you’re not compromising for other people. 

As They Made Us, written and directed by Mayim Bialik and starring Dianna Agron, Dustin Hoffman, Candice Bergen and Simon Helberg is out in theatres and on VOD digital platforms April 8th. Listen to and watch the entire interview on the Allison Interviews podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on YouTube.

By Allison Kugel
 
Singer-songwriter Skip Marley, born to the late Bob Marley’s daughter, Cedella Marley and David Minto, was thrown into the deep end of the Marley music legacy when, at thirteen, his Uncle Stephen Marley brought him on stage to sing his grandfather’s iconic hit, One Love in front of thousands of fans. From that moment on, music wasn’t an option, but a providential imperative for the now twenty-five year old singer-songwriter. The Marley family dynasty and its mission of spreading love and social change through meaningful lyrics and reggae-infused beats has crowned its new prince in Skip Marley.
 
By 2017 Skip was collaborating with multi-award winning and multiplatinum selling pop artist, Katy Perry, when she featured him on her hit single Chained to the Rhythm, bringing him mainstream attention. The year 2020 led to another high profile collaboration when Marley featured Grammy nominated R&B artist H.E.R. on the remix of his single, Slow Down.
 
In spring 2020, Slow Down, with over 185 million global streams, became the quickest and biggest-streaming song in Marley family history, and elevated Skip to over 417 million total global artist streams, also Making Marley the first Jamaican-born artist to reach the #1 spot on the Billboard Adult R&B chart. At the same time, Skip became the first Jamaican-born artist inside the Top 15 on Billboard’s R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay chart in nearly a decade and a half.
 
Collaborations with family, including his Uncle Damian Marley, on the single That’s Not True deliver Bob Marley’s time tested message, while Make Me Feel featuring rap icon Rick Ross and singer Ari Lennox introduce Skip to an audience that embraces a fusion of reggae, R&B and rap sounds.
 
Skip Marley is cultivating an eclectic catalog of music that speaks to a generation that refuses to be put in a box, but instead embraces diversity of expression. The year 2022 shows no signs of slowing down, with Skip’s latest single Vibe featuring Jamaican deejay Popcaan, and Marley’s first U.S. headlining twenty city tour, Change.
 
Allison Kugel: You were born in Jamaica. When did you move to the states?
 
Skip Marley: I think officially when I was five years old, but we were always back and forth. 
 
Allison Kugel: What three pivotal life events have made you the person you are today?
 
Skip Marley: I would say the first is when I was born (laughs). The second was in 2005, at my grandfather’s celebration concert in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. That was the first time I had seen a million or more people come out and celebrate my grandfather’s music and the message. It’s the reason we do what we do, so even at that young age it touched me, and I began to have more of an understanding…
 
Allison Kugel: Of who he was…
 
Skip Marley: Right, for the first time. And the third one was probably when my uncle Stephen [Marley] brought me on stage, because that really gave me the push that I needed in music. That was my first shot, and I was about thirteen years old. He brought me up there to sing, and I sang One Love. That was the first time I really sang. They threw me in the water, so music chose me.
 
Allison Kugel: When you were growing up, was there ever a thought of maybe I’ll do something other than music? Or was it always a feeling that music was your destiny? 
 
Skip Marley: Although I was always involved in music from when I was very young - piano lessons, guitar lessons, and things of that nature - I was always more into sports. But it was really that moment when my Uncle Stephen brought me onto the stage that I thought, “Yeah, this music thing chose me. I think it’s for me.”
 
Allison Kugel: Wow. What does it feel like to carry the last name Marley? Does it feel like a tremendous responsibility?
 
Skip Marley: It’s an honor and it’s a responsibility, because I have a duty. I feel like I have a duty as a next generation Marley to keep on [going with] this legacy that we built; keep moving forward and taking it into the world. So, I do feel like I have a responsibility, but it’s not a dark pressure. People always ask me that, but what we do is like a light, the words of a speaker. It does a lot for people, and for me. If my song affects one person, it has done its job to me.
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, I know exactly what you mean. You’ve certainly reached a great number of people with your music. Your song Slow Down (featuring H.E.R.) has been streamed more than 185 million times, globally. I’m sure you know that.
 
Skip Marley: I don’t really check those things too much, but wow!
 
Allison Kugel: Well I checked it and it was the biggest streaming song in Marley family history.
 
Skip Marley: I was aware of that part.
 
Allison Kugel: What did your uncles and your mom (Cedella Marley) say to you when they heard that?
 
Skip Marley: They were proud for me, but it’s not for me. It is always “we.” I’m representing all of them, so for me it’s a family victory and it’s not just about me.
 
Allison Kugel: It’s interesting you say that. Obviously, I knew who your grandfather, Bob Marley, was. But it wasn’t until a friend of mine said to me, “You know, I really admire the Marleys, because they understand that the collective is more important than one person. They understand what it is to serve something greater than each individual.” 
 
Skip Marley: Right, right. We all strive together. We might not all sing, but we have our own lanes for us to go on, yeah mon. Music wasn’t forced on me. Music is something you have to choose. You have to pursue that for yourself. It wasn’t like I was told, “You’re going to make music.” My life was school, school, school growing up. 
 
Allison Kugel: Were you an “A” student?
 
Skip Marley: No (laugh). I was in school and would always think about music. As I got to junior high and then high school, I was always just thinking about music, and even after school I would have three or four hours of music. I had a drive to learn as much as I could.
 
Allison Kugel: I’ve heard that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master anything you want to do. 
 
Skip Marley: Yes. If you love something and have a passion for something, and if you are driven towards something, whatever it is, you are not going to give up when you love it. I have had countless hours where my mom would have to say, “Yo, that is enough [practice] for now.” I have such great examples of hard work, discipline, and dedication. From a very young age it was instilled in me, that kind of work ethic. It’s taken me to where I am, and it is going to take me further and further. 
 
Allison Kugel: You are very close with your mom Cedella, who is your grandparents, Bob and Rita Marley’s daughter, of course. What is the best advice she has ever given you?
 
Skip Marley: Work harder than everyone. Nothing is going to be given to you. Perfect practice makes perfect. You have to believe and get up and work for it. Nothing is given. She was a living example of that, and so every day was an example for me.
 
Allison Kugel: Is your Uncle Ziggy [Marley] the head of your grandfather’s estate?
 
Skip Marley: Yes. I think my grandmother, my mother, and my Uncle Ziggy all work together.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you guys have family meetings where you decide how you are going to license and distribute the Bob Marley brand, his music, and Bob Marley merchandise?
 
Skip Marley: Yes, for sure. Always family meetings. If it’s not in person, it’s Zoom [meetings].
 
Allison Kugel: Tell me how Covid, the whole pandemic, and everything that has gone on, how did it transform you as a person?
 
Skip Marley: I would say it made me focus more and made me more disciplined. You had more time to really think things out. It gave me time to work on myself and work on my music; to work on my mind and things like that. It was really a fitness thing. I worked out every day, six days a week, so that has been my thing from Covid.
 
Allison Kugel: One of my favorite songs of yours is That’s Not True, featuring your Uncle Damian Marley. How did that family musical collaboration come together?
 
Skip Marley: I had a couple of songs and brought them to my uncle, thinking I would love to have him on a song. He went through a couple of them and liked That’s Not True, so we took it from there and just built the song. 
 
Allison Kugel: It’s very conscious and reminiscent of your grandfather, Bob Marley’s, social messaging in the lyrics. Who wrote it?
 
Skip Marley: Me, my Uncle D, and a guy called CyHi da Prynce.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you like putting social messages in your music?
 
Skip Marley: For sure, because the music is a message. Music is a vehicle and a tool. Music is used to unify people and spread messages of upliftment. For me, personally, I think we should use music as a benefit and try spreading messages of love, equality, and freedom. All of these things, for me, are important. I try to always make sure the music speaks.
 
Allison Kugel: Where do you place material things, objects, and material wealth in your hierarchy of priorities?
 
Skip Marley: That is not my priority. My family is my main priority, my first priority. For me, possessions are not. I can have nothing as long as my family has something. That is how I am, personally.
 
Allison Kugel: I feel the same way. Probably why that particular song, That’s Not True, really speaks to me.
 
Skip Marley: Wow! I love that.
 
Allison Kugel: I don’t understand people’s obsession with handbags, shoes, clothes, jewelry, and all of that stuff.
 
Skip Marley: Yes, those things are only for a while. It’s momentary. It doesn’t really have use.
But to each their own. I’m not going to tell people how to live, or whatever, but if you want more of that kind of living…
 
Allison Kugel: Your new song Vibe is definitely a vibe (laugh)!  I was listening to it on rotation over and over, and it is such a great chill, party, dance, feel good song.
 
Skip Marley: That was the intention. I was doing that song during the whole Covid time and people just want to free up, feel good, be with each other, and dance. All of those things were missing. The human experience, the connection, and the good vibes. So, “(He begins to sing) She wanna catch a vibe, she wanna spend some time, into the light…”  It was just a light party kind of a song. Then Popcaan, who is featured on the song, was the perfect [collaborator].  
 
Allison Kugel: My favorite line in the song is, “Face it, she don’t want notin’ basic.”  (Laugh) That really speaks to my soul!
 
Skip Marley: (Laughs) Well, that is reality. As time goes on, she realized she don’t want notin’ [basic]….  and finds something worth her time.  

Allison Kugel: The first time I ever heard you on the radio was in the Katy Perry song Chained to the Rhythm in which you are featured.  How did that collaboration happen?
 
Skip Marley: It’s a funny story. At the time, around 2016 or 2017, that whole time I was actually working with the whole MXM camp, which was Max Martin and all those guys, top producers. He was playing my song, Lions in the studio when Katy [Perry] walked in and said, “Who is that?”  He said, “Oh, that’s Skip Marley.” She said, “I need him on my next single.” So he calls me and says, “Katy Perry needs you in her next single.” I said, “Katy Perry?!” He said, “Yeah, boom.”  I gave him a verse and she came in when I was finishing. I met her for the first time, and everything took off from there; Grammys, Brits, I Heart Radio. It was all a beautiful journey and I’m glad Katy reached out to me and I got to spread the message to such a big platform and audience. 
 
Allison Kugel: When your grandfather, Bob Marley, was alive, he was so passionate about the island of Jamaica. But there came a point when it was dangerous for him to stay there, for political reasons. There were attempts on his life and he had to relocate to London, where he lived until the end of his life.  Are there still safety issues for your family in Jamaica, or is that something that is long in the past?
 
Skip Marley: That is in the past, but [we have] security for sure, always. That is our home and a place that we love, and we take care of. That is also part of my responsibility as the next generation.
 
Allison Kugel: And your grandfather’s home at 56 Hope Road is now a museum.
 
Skip Marley: Yes, that is a museum now.  It’s his home and a museum.  If you haven’t gone, I would suggest it heavily when you are in Jamaica, to visit Hope Road. 
 
Allison Kugel: My son is half Jamaican, so I want to take him there.
 
Skip Marley: Really?
 
Allison Kugel:  Yes.
 
Skip Marley: Nice, well, it would be perfect for him then.
 
Allison Kugel: What do you want people to know about the island of Jamaica?
 
Skip Marley: It’s a very spiritual place with loving people. A very beautiful place. Nowhere else feels like Jamaica. The people speak for it and the music speaks for it. You can see how the world gravitates towards it, because there is an energy there. It’s almost like a spirit that just moves you. That is what I would say about Jamaica, when my grandma (Rita Marley) was there. It’s like a connection for me, personally.
 
Allison Kugel: Are you close with your grandmother?
 
Skip Marley: Yeah mon, very close with my grandmother. From her I learned that when all odds are against you, don’t give up. When the whole world turns against you, my grandmother never gave up. My grandmother built Tuff Gong to where it is now, and my grandfather’s [legacy] to where it is now, and her humanitarian efforts as well. She’s also a doctor, Doctor Alpharita Marley, so I have a lot to aspire to and a lot to look up to. She took on the world. And my mother, they are both my examples in that sense, of the work ethic and discipline, and selflessness. It is rare now-a-days, but selflessness is very important.
 
Allison Kugel: And how have they shaped how you view and relate to woman?
 
Skip Marley: Everything. And the way I carry myself. 
 
Allison Kugel: This year you are embarking on your first solo headlining tour. Why 2022, and how do you feel about it?
 
Skip Marley: I feel great and I feel excited. Why 2022? Why not (laugh)?  I was already supposed to tour two years ago, so now it has been a long time coming.  I’m looking forward to taking the message to the people and the music on the road. 
 
Allison Kugel: Do you have anybody opening for you?
 
Skip Marley: I’m still figuring that out.
 
Allison Kugel: So there is a job opening for somebody out there (laugh).
 
Skip Marley: Somebody, yes (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Your accent and your energy… I feel like my blood pressure is lowering as I sit with you and speak to you.
 
Skip Marley: That’s a good thing. Love is the key.
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, I can’t be a typical high strung American around you. 
 
Skip Marley: You just have to be what you are. 
 
Allison Kugel: The tour is called Change. Tell me about that.
 
Skip Marley: We have to make a change in this world so we can see it’s not impossible. You’re free to do whatever you want and free to be whoever you want to be. The whole concept of the album Change, and the name of the tour, is because people are always waiting on things to change, when people can be the change they want to see.
 
Allison Kugel: Are you a spiritual guy? 
 
Skip Marley: For sure, I think I’m spiritual, naturally. I feel like it has a lot to do with my family, even to when I was growing up. I used to go study my grandfather a lot, so that opened up my mind from a young age and was so beneficial. You can’t have one without the other. You have mental good, spiritual good, physical good. and it goes hand in hand. You need balance. It’s like Yin and Yang.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you subscribe to any religion?
 
Skip Marley: No, it’s a way of life, of living. God is within and God is all around us. Where there is light, there is hope. Especially in these times, now, there is a lot of everybody against everybody and that’s not what we need or what we want. All it’s doing is causing more headache, suffering, and all of these things. How about we make a change as the people?  How about we decide, because the people change things. It is not some guy telling you he is going to do something for you. It’s really the people.
 
Allison Kugel: Where do you see yourself in five years?
 
Skip Marley: I see myself making more music, touring the world, keep doing what I’m doing.  Only God knows, so I don’t really think about that too much. I really focus on now.
 
Allison Kugel: When you are writing lyrics, do you ever feel like you have to hold back in terms of certain social or political messages? Or do you feel unrestrained, like you can just write whatever you feel that you want to write and sing about?
 
Skip Marley: Whatever inspiration comes to me, I always try to write about. Not saying there haven’t been times I’ve had to go back and adjust things, but I try to feel what the music is saying. I don’t really try to sit down and think too much.  I kind of feel it, because music talks to you if you listen. It can talk to you, so you can kind of hear what the music wants, in a sense.
 
Allison Kugel: What is your creative process?
 
Skip Marley: It depends. Since I play music too, I produce my own stuff as well as write, so for me, a lot of time it starts with me on guitar, piano, bass, or wherever. Or I am humming something, or I hear words in my head, or if I have an idea and start it from there and slowly build with a couple of chords and progressions. I slowly just build until I have a chorus, hook, or verse. Whatever it is first, and I just follow it. I just go with the feeling and follow the flow. I don’t really try to over think it too much.
 
Allison Kugel: Where do you stand on substances?  Do you use marijuana as a creative conduit, or are you more of a sober person?
 
Skip Marley: Yes, herb opens up inspirations, opens up higher heights, for sure. Herb is beneficial.  I’m not saying you have to use it, but I don’t see why not. You don’t have to smoke it. You can eat it, drink it, boil it, apply it as lotion. So, it benefits. I don’t see why not and I’m glad to see America is slowly taking those steps forward in terms of the plant, and the plant can save the place, you know? The more the merrier (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Tell me about when you are on tour.  How is the show going to go?  Do you have a band you are going to work with?
 
Skip Marley: Yes, I will have a five or six piece band. It’s like an hour to hour and a half set.  My current songs and some new songs, some unheard songs; and my grandfather’s songs, of course. People will really enjoy themselves, have a good time, and catch a good vibe. That is what it’s all about. I want them moving, people feeling something. Music is food.  You have to be careful what you ingest now-a-days.
 
Allison Kugel: You effortlessly drop gems. I can tell you’re a thinker and I love that.  
 
Skip Marley: Well, thank you.
 
Allison Kugel: It is so true.  You have to watch what you listen to.  What your eyes see, what your ears hear, and what you take in.  
 
Skip Marley: With everything. Subconsciously, you have to be aware of things you are doing. Trust me, it’s a temple, you know. 
 
Allison Kugel: Since you brought up food, what kind of diet do you adhere to? 
 
Skip Marley: I’ll tell you what, I’ve been pescatarian for a while now. I just eat fruits, veggies, and fish. Sometimes I’ll eat a piece of chicken, but most times I eat fish, veggies, and fruit.  Clean eating, natural eating. I don’t really drink sugary drinks or anything like that. I make my own drinks, I make my own juices, and make my own food.
 
Allison Kugel: Any sweet tooth?
 
Skip Marley: Sometimes when I smoke, I get a little sweet tooth. Nothing really too much. I would eat something sweet, but I’m not a guy that craves something sweet.
 
Allison Kugel: Are you a guy who believes in monogamy and marriage? What is your take on that?
 
Skip Marley: Well, to tell you the truth I think marriage is still there, if it’s really real.  It doesn’t have to be real now-a-days, because everything is so wishy washy, but if it’s really real then marriage is great and it’s a Godly thing. But as of right now, me personally, I don’t need to know about marriage right now (laugh). I mean, marriage is good. Marriage is a Godly thing.  It’s supposed to be a Godly connection, so it speaks for itself. What do you think?
 
Allison Kugel: Life is all about risks, right? You are never going to be 100% sure about anything you do in life. I think if I really felt that deep of a connection, now at this point in my life, I would do it. No risk, no reward. It’s like having kids. You are never ready to have kids. You’re never ready to go on tour, as you know. You’re never ready to move. You’re never ready to do anything, but that is the beauty of life. Sometimes you have to close your eyes and jump. 
 
Skip Marley: Sometimes you just have to stay ready (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: I mean, I won’t be jumping out of an airplane anytime soon, but I would get married (laugh).
 
Skip Marley: That was a great explanation, one that lines up very much with what I’m saying. If it’s real, then why not? Me right now, I don’t know about marriage.
 
Allison Kugel: You’re still young and you’re doing awesome. All of you, the Marleys are such a talented family and all of the music is incredible, but I feel like your music really feels… like a second coming of your grandfather. His spirit is in you.
 
Skip Marley: I understand that and I appreciate that, thank you.
 
Allison Kugel: Your music is really beautiful, it’s diverse, and some of it makes you feel good. Some of it makes you think, and that is a beautiful thing.
 
Skip Marley: I’m glad that you appreciate it. 
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, very much so, and that is why I wanted to talk to you. If you could have a conversation with your grandfather and ask him anything, what would you like to ask him?
 
Skip Marley: I would ask him which books to read.
 
Allison Kugel: Really? Okay.
 
Skip Marley: I have a lot of questions, but I would love to hear what kinds of books to read, too.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you know what some of his favorite books were when he was alive?
 
Skip Marley: I mean, The Bible. Some books about His Imperial Majesty (referring to Haile Selassie, the founder of Rastafarianism), The Wise Mind of Emperor Haile Selassie, and things like that. [He] definitely read a lot of African books. There are a lot of things I would love to ask him, but that is the first thing that came to my mind.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you believe in time travel?
 
Skip Marley: No, not right now. What do you think?  You think time travel is real? I’m not going to put you down. What do you think?
 
Allison Kugel: Well, thank you (laughs). I have this weird obsession with the concept of time travel.  I don’t know why, but I feel like sometimes time is kind of speeding up or slowing down. Sometimes things that happened twenty years ago feels like they happened yesterday, and something that happened last week feels like it was a year ago, and I think it’s strange.
 
Skip Marley: That is true. I can relate to that. Time is like a circle.
 
Allison Kugel: I definitely don’t think time is what we think it is.
 
Skip Marley: I know what you mean. Hey listen, we only know what we know right now, so who knows? 
 
Allison Kugel: I believe in things that we can’t perceive with our five senses.
 
Skip Marley: You believe in things we cannot see. You believe in things where people would call you crazy or label you for this and that. We should be free, and we should be what we want to be.
 
Allison Kugel: I feel like you can believe in your imagination more than you can believe in what you see with your eyes.  Does that make sense?  
 
Skip Marley: That is true, because it’s like the power of belief.
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, the power of belief. 
 
Skip Marley: Jump in the fire and never get burned. It’s like you walk by fate. You can only walk by what is inside.
 
Allison Kugel: Exactly. I ask this of everybody, and I know that you are young so I don’t know how you would contemplate this, but what do you think you came into this life as Skip Marley to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Skip Marley: Well, what I came here to learn is purpose. Once you find your purpose, like for me, personally, it is to spread love. These messages are just within me from the connection of my grandfather, to my mother, to me. I feel there is a responsibility, and these words and messages need to be spoken and things need to be said. I would say I’m God’s soldier; a music warrior. I’ve come to fight with music. I’ve come to take on the world with music, and come shape the world with music. That is my thing, music, the consciousness, and the collective community of mankind; and restoring that kind of connection.
 
Skip Marley’s U.S. tour, Changes hits 23 cities from March 20th through May 27th. For information and tickets visit skipmarley.com/tour. Follow on Instagram @skipmarley and stream on Spotify and iTunes.
 
Watch and listen to the extended interview with Skip Marley on the Allison Interviews podcast at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on YouTube.

​Actor and director Kadeem Hardison is known for his iconic TV role as Dwayne Wayne on the groundbreaking NBC sitcom A Different World, which aired for seven seasons, from 1987 through 1993, and highlighted the lives and relationships of Black college students attending the fictional HBCU, Hillman College. The show also starred Lisa Bonet, Marisa Tomei, Jasmine Guy, Sinbad, Jada Pinkett Smith, Cree Summer and Darryl M. Bell among others.
 
Kadeem went on to play Zendaya’s father in Disney Channel’s K.C. Undercover, and to recur in Showtime’s Black Monday. Hardison will now star in the upcoming AMC television series, Moonhaven, which takes place 100 years in the future in a utopian society set on a 500 square mile Garden of Eden built on the Moon.
 
The following are excerpts from the latest episode of the Allison Interviews podcast with host and entertainment journalist, Allison Kugel, interviewing Kadeem Hardison. Hardison talks about his relationships with Lisa Bonet, Marisa Tomei and Jasmine Guy, directing Tupac Shakur and Jada Pinkett Smith together, his friendship with Zendaya, and wishing Malcolm X were alive while he was growing up. The full podcast episode is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and the video episode of the podcast is available on YouTube. 

​On Lisa Bonet confiding in him about how early fame affected her:
“I had worked with Lisa [Bonet] the year before A Different World.  I did a guest spot on The Cosby Show and I was just really interested to know how she dealt with the fame thing. She was probably the most famous person I had ever met at that point. So, our conversations were me asking her, ‘So what’s it like with that big spotlight on you everywhere you go.’  She said, ‘Well, you know, I used to love to go to malls and I don’t go to malls anymore. I used to love to go out to the movies and I can’t do that anymore.’  It was all about these things that were kind of restricted, or she restricted herself from, because it brought so much attention. She was someone I was gaining knowledge from. Then on A Different World, I got to pretend to have a crush on Lisa, which was the easiest job in America.” 
 
On having a crush on Jasmine Guy as soon as they met:
“I met Jasmine the year before [A Different World].  We did a film together. Our characters didn’t speak, but in the down time we kind of got to hang out a little bit and be at parties and stuff like that. Oh boy, I had a crush on Jasmine the minute I saw her. When I met Jasmine [Guy] it was an instant skipped heartbeat. Once Lisa was gone, I got to pretend to fall in love with Jasmine (on A Different World).”
 
On Marisa Tomei’s character being the only white character on A Different World:
“[Marisa] was cast before I got there. Usually when you make a show, you better have some white characters in it (laugh), or someone is going to raise hell. Someone is going to say, ‘Why are there no white folks on it?’  It’s a historically Black university. Black being the operative word. But I loved her character.  I was sad when she was gone in the second season.” 
 
On Marisa Tomei and Kadeem wanting their A Different World characters to get together:
“During the first season she and I both lobbied to the writers to put us together. Let us have more scenes together. Let something develop between us. Like why doesn’t she see him? Why doesn’t he see her?  It just seemed so obvious that the two weirdest outcasts would kind of find each other. I thought our characters were kind of made for each other, because she was kind of off, and I was definitely off. I thought, ‘Nobody sees him out of the group.’ Like the girls that I’m chasing all the time; nobody sees him.  Why doesn’t she see him and why doesn’t he see her?  They seemed like they could bond off of their uniqueness, or the fact that they are both a little bit off. But at the time it was let’s keep the blacks with the black, and the whites with the whites. It’s crazy.”
 
On directing Jada Pinkett Smith and Tupac Shakur together on A Different World:
“It was fantastic. They had a seamless chemistry.  How do you direct De Niro and Pacino?  You just kind of stand back and let them go. You hope that the cameras are in focus. I didn’t really have to tell him much.  I didn’t have to tell her hardly anything. It was a joy to watch.  It was probably the easiest directing job. The fight scene we had to tweak a little bit.  We had to work on it, because it was a fight between Jada’s character’s current boyfriend and Pac’s character.  So, we had to spend some time working that out, but once I said ‘Action,’ it took on a life of its own. It felt like a real fight. It felt like a real brawl, and that was Pac.  That was him going in, like, ‘I’m going to whoop this sucker.’ It was awesome to direct the two of them.  They were good buds and I kept asking her, ‘Is he going to show up? Because I have lots of rapper friends and I knew that [being on] time is not their friend?  She said, ‘Yes, he’s coming. He’s on his way.’
 
“I always felt like I loved Tupac as a rapper, but I was jealous of him as an actor, because I just thought he had such range. He could touch places that I didn’t know if I could go. I just wanted to watch.  But it wasn’t Macbeth, you know what I mean?  He’s playing the neighborhood cat that comes in full of bravado to claim the girl he thinks is his. He was like, ‘Yeah, I can do that.’  (laugh). [Jada] was playing the girl who was trying to get away from that life. There were no real notes for them. There was no reason to say, ‘Hey try it like this.’ Everything they did was magic.”
 
On almost turning down playing Zendaya’s dad in Disney Channel’s K.C. Undercover:
“When K.C. Undercover came along, I didn’t really know who Zendaya was and I was a little skeptical about Disney Channel.  I wanted to curse, bleed, and do all kinds of adult stuff, and that’s not going to happen with the Disney Channel. When I got word of the audition I was in New York and my nieces and my sisters were asking me, ‘What are you doing next?’  I said, ‘Well, there’s this show with this girl named Zendaya or something like that, and they want me to be her daddy.’ Everyone from my six-year-old niece to my 30-year-old sister all flipped out and said, ‘You have to take that. That girl is going to be something!’
 
On celebrating with Zendaya when she landed her role in Spider-Man:
“She’s my ace, and all of these moves she’s made have been really well thought out.  I was there when she booked Spider-Man and we jumped around the room like, ‘Holy sh*t, you’re going to be in Spider-Man? What?!’ And I was there when she got the musical with Hugh Jackman, The Greatest Showman. I knew that once we get out of Disney world, we just want to get a chance to get our hands on some meat, to see if we can really act, because we’ve been doing nice, easy cotton candy for so long. I have to see if I can really throw down still.  Her show, Euphoria was it, and I’m loving it!”
 
On why he wishes Malcolm X had lived a full life:
“Once you die, you become a god, but I think if he was still around, the teaching would have reached more.  He would have had to grow, change, and adapt.  All of that would have made him better, and us better, for having him. He would have been able to import that into us. It’s hard to say, because now he is It. He’s the one you look to and say, ‘This is what this guy said,’ or ‘This is what he was saying,’ but you never get to hear what he would have said had he lived another 10, 20, or 30 years. That’s where it would have gotten groovy, because I think he was gone before I was born. It would have been nice to see him as a real person instead of this god that you have to read about in books, or look at on old tapes from the time that he was living, and not the times we’re living in. In my 20s, I would have liked to know what he thought about the world we were living in. In my 40s, I would have liked to know what he thought about the world we are in. That’s the version of things I would want.”

By Allison Kugel
 
In this very candid interview, five-time Emmy nominated television host, journalist, and lifestyle expert, Debbie Matenopoulos, opens up about her much publicized and decades-long television career, her journey to motherhood, and how her Greek heritage inspired her skincare line, Ikaria Beauty.
 
Matenopoulos pulls back the curtain on her relationship with former boss and mentor, Barbara Walters, her experience being one of the original co-hosts of ABC television juggernaut, The View, serving celebrity tea as co-host of E!’s Daily 10, and her latest stint as a co-host on The Hallmark Channel’s morning show, Home & Family (after a decade-long run, the show was canceled in 2021).  
 
Paying homage to her Greek heritage, Debbie Matenopoulos launched the skincare line, Ikaria Beauty, with pure ingredients sourced directly from Greece’s Ikaria Island.
 
Allison Kugel: What are some significant life events that have made you the human being you are today?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I feel like every single day there are significant life events and it’s your choice to see them, hear them, take them in, and do something with them or not. Listen, growing up in America I looked like your typical white girl, but I’m 100% Greek through and through. My parents didn’t speak English when they came to this country. I’m as immigrant as they come. My sister and brother were born in Greece. My parents had two suitcases, two kids, and $50 in their pocket. They managed to put themselves through night school to learn English to then have successful careers and be able to help their kids go to school and help pay for college. One moment that I always think about is when I was six years old and at the grocery store with my mom. My mother obviously has a very thick accent and could hardly speak English properly, but she was trying and doing her best. She was asking something of the saleswoman at the store, and the saleswoman kept saying, “What?!,” and being really dismissive and rude. She said to my mom, “I’m sorry, I don’t understand you.” And she kept talking louder and louder as if speaking louder and with an aggressive tone was going to make my mother understand her. I remember seeing my mom look so deflated and so ashamed. And I remember looking up and saying to the saleswoman, “My mother is not stupid. She just speaks a different language.  Please stop talking to my mom like that.” That moment, for me, I think helped me empathize with immigrants so much in this country.
 
Allison Kugel: We are a nation of immigrants, but in recent times there is an animosity towards immigrants, like a hostility towards you if you don’t speak English well, and if you are trying to get your foot in the door but you don’t fit in.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Exactly. This country is a melting pot. The country was born out of immigrants. It’s interesting, I’ve never said that to anybody before. That was big for me.  
 
Allison Kugel: Wow! That is a big deal then.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Another big life moment would be getting hired for The View (Matenopoulos was an original co-host on The View from 1997 – 1999).  That was life altering, and nothing I expected at that time. I was at a party uptown with some guys that said, “Come audition for this show.” I was working at MTV, I had pink hair, and I was going to NYU Journalism school. Barbara Walters was doing the show and I said, “Are you out of your mind? Barbara Walters is going to want me to go work for her?!  You must be crazy!”  I didn’t think about it twice. I was at school in the morning at NYU, and I went to MTV after school because that was my job. My roommate told me that the same guy from the party called to continue to persuade me to go for this interview for this new show. He was a casting director for Barbara’s production company, and she had hired him to cast her new show. I go up there and maybe I thought I didn’t have anything to lose. Perhaps that was one of the reasons that I was not anxious about it. I figured it didn’t matter if I got hired for this. That is probably why, looking back now, they actually hired me, because I was so…. not in my head about it.
 
Allison Kugel: I pictured that part of your story so much differently.  I pictured that you are working at MTV and somehow you met Barbara Walters somewhere, and she was like, “You.” (Laughs) I guess that’s not how it happened. 
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Completely different.  I mean I showed up thinking this is nuts. And there is a big difference between MTV and ABC. ABC was very corporate. MTV was like working at Romper Room. They asked me about my life and to come back and audition.  I go back to audition two weeks later at one of the hotels near Central Park in New York. They had rented the whole suite and all of these people show up.  All of these women who were famous, except for me.
 
Allison Kugel: They were all seasoned journalists, correspondents, known personalities.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: All of them. I’m thinking, “Okay I’ve had enough.” So, I turn around to leave and as I’m walking out of the room Barbara Walters is walking in.  I open the door and she is standing there at the hotel room door, and she says, “Oh baby, I’m so happy you came.” She guides me back in and addresses the room with her hand on my shoulder. 
 
Allison Kugel: Oh wow. I love those moments. So, you’re 22 years old, you’re a college student and you worked at MTV for a little bit. What did Barbara Walters expect from you?  he puts this 22-year-old on the panel of The View. What were her expectations of you, exactly?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I don’t know that she even knew. Nothing like The View ever existed before, but now you see so many imitations have come after. It was an experiment and something she had wanted to do for years, and she finally was at a place in her life and had enough respect at ABC that they would allow her to do this. She wanted to just have a bunch of women sitting around, from different generations, different backgrounds, and different views, that would talk about topics of the day. The show has become super political now, but it wasn’t supposed to be political. It was just meant to be, “Here’s your mom, your grandmother, your aunt, your cousin, your younger sister, all sitting there chatting about the same topic. And they are all going to have different ideas, because they are coming from different generations and different backgrounds. It was about having a fun conversation and seeing where it comes out, and for all of us to learn from one another.
 
Allison Kugel: You were basically hired just to be yourself?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: That’s it. In the initial interview with Barbara and with [showrunner] Bill Geddie, that is what they loved. They loved that I was just myself. Media has changed immensely since then. You can only be yourself right now, and so can I, because we don’t have Tide, Downey and Coca Cola breathing down our necks to say. “Oh my gosh, what are you saying on that show?” Yes, they liked it, but then when you get in front of the world and the network is selling advertising dollars, they’re saying, “Who is this wild child saying these things?” that perhaps don’t align with corporate sponsors. The sponsors were still [Barbara’s] boss, and the network was still her boss. Now it is different. Now people say the craziest stuff, and the crazier the better, and people like that because it garners publicity and people love that.
 
Allison Kugel: It goes viral.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: It goes viral. Back then, they wanted to sweep everything under the rug.  They were like “Yes, we like you, just be you… with a little less you.” (Laughs). There is so much you, and we’re not sure if daytime TV is ready for all of that. Then the Kardashians came, and all this craziness, and I was thinking, “I wasn’t nearly as wild as they were.” It’s just that at the time I was 22 years old, on national television, and going out to concerts, going out to clubs, being a 22-year-old.
 
Allison Kugel: We’re the same age, and I remember watching you on The View back then. I thought you were funny, irreverent, interesting, and they had you doing some really cool and fun things. Then things took a left turn. I started hearing in the media, “Would you believe what Debbie said on The View?”  Then people are parodying you on SNL and late-night TV and picking you apart as if you were supposed to be this seasoned politico and journalist.  It was very weird, what happened to you.  
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: It was very hard to deal with, because suddenly I get all of this fame and notoriety very quickly. It’s all fine and great and then like you said it turned on a dime and everyone started attacking me.  I said, “Wait a second. You hired me to be this. You hired me to be the kid from MTV. That is all I ever told you I was.” It was hard to understand why it was all happening. It was also hard to read that stuff and hear that stuff. I really retreated and I didn’t want to work in this business anymore. I have a very strong family unit, thank God, because if I did not have such a strong family and wasn’t so supported by them… it was a safe haven. I really leaned on them a lot during that time, and I went back to Virginia and just moved back into my parents’ house and said, “I don’t want to do this.” The press was calling, and the paparazzi was trying to find me. I am not a person who likes to fight.  I’m not a person that likes to make other people feel uncomfortable, and I’m not a person that likes to debate just for the sake of debating.  That is kind of what that show had become. You were debating, but it wasn’t like that in the beginning, I’m telling you.

​Allison Kugel: How was your firing from The View presented to you, exactly?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I was told the network was going in a different direction and yada yada yada. They did try to point things out to me like, I was young, I was going out to clubs, and at that time it was really intriguing to the paparazzi. They didn’t have anybody young in New York that was on a daytime show.  I was the youngest person in history to be on a daytime show, so for them they were thinking, “Oh, she’s a loose cannon. At any moment we are going to get something good for the press.”  And they were not wrong. I was a kid. Thank God there was no social media. Oh My God! Ooooh boy! I would have lasted two weeks, because the paparazzi would follow me around and Page Six… it made Barbara embarrassed as opposed to her saying, “Oh, we should talk about this on the show. We should say, “Well Debbie, it appears you are in the paper today for dancing on the bar at Hogs and Heifers.
 
Allison Kugel: Laughs.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: My friends came into town, and I wanted to show them a good time.  We go to Hogs and Heifers. I’m dancing on the bar.  The paparazzi are there. And Page Six, who by the way, how did they know I was going to be there?  Somebody tipped them off. It’s not like they just show up.  And then it’s in the paper the next day. I go to the show the next morning and I’m saying “Hey” to everybody, and literally no one is talking to me, because they know I’m about to get in big trouble.
 
Allison Kugel: That would have been a perfect conversation starter though.  That would have been like this is what is going on and gotten your perspective on it.
 
Allison Kugel: From dancing on the bar at Hogs and Heifers to sex tapes launching careers a few short year later (laugh)…
 
Debbie Matenopoulose: I was dancing on a bar. I’m not Kim Kardashian. 
 
Allison Kugel: Did you ever watch Lisa Ling, who replaced you, or Elizabeth Hasselbeck, or were you not interested? 
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Lisa is still my friend.  I love Lisa and I love Elizabeth. I’m not as close to Elizabeth as I am to Lisa, but I love both of them.  It wasn’t their fault they got a job.  They got the job because there was a spot. They wanted to hire someone different than me, so they hired Lisa, and it didn’t work out for her after two years. Then they hired Elizabeth and it didn’t work out for her.  I would say I was just the first to be voted off the island.  I was the original Survivor.  Something about that was really healing for me.  It was sort of validation and vindication that wait, it wasn’t me. It wasn’t me at all.  For a minute you think it’s you and your like, “Gosh what have I done?  I messed this whole thing up.”  I always say was almost like a public beheading. It was like they called everyone down to time square and let’s put Debbie’s head into the guillotine and oh my gosh cheer.  It was almost like gosh you guys are aggressive.  I’m just a kid. Having had that done so early in my career prepared me for anything. I’m like Teflon now. The truth is it wasn’t me.  I did everything they asked me to do and it just… the show was trying to find its footing.
 
Allison Kugel: You eventually moved to LA and went over to E! and hosted The Daily 10, which was very different. Were you personally heavy into celebrity gossip culture, or was it just a job?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I worked at MTV before, so initially the only reason I started working for MTV is because I’m such a music head. I love music.  I’m tone deaf and I don’t play an instrument. I’m just a fan and I really love music. I told E!, “I was at MTV for the music, not for TV. When I got to E! a lot of the stuff we had to report on, I was thinking, “C’mon, this is so not right and not nice. I said to the producers, “So, I’m supposed to now deliver this to people at home about somebody.  Who’s going out with who? Who’s having sex with who? God y’all, this is hard.” When I would do the interviews, I knew a lot of these [celebrities] already because I was already on The View, and they would come on The View. So, when I would go do the interviews with them, before I would get mic’d up, I would say to them, “Look, I have to ask you this. You don’t have to answer me.” I would say, “I can’t go back to my boss without asking you this, but I really don’t want to. This is an awful question, but you see it here [on the card].” 
 
Allison Kugel: That is hilarious.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: You know what’s interesting about that? Because I took the heat off of them and the heat off myself, and I let them know that I wasn’t there to make them feel bad or make them feel uncomfortable about what was happening in their personal life, because I did that, 90% of the time they would answer it. You’re not being mean. You’re not a threat.  You’re not trying to make them look bad.  Then, I would go back to [editing] and I would say, “Guys take care of them. Don’t make them look bad. Don’t make it ugly when you cut this piece together.” All of those moments were defining moments in my life. The third one would be my dad passing away from ALS. That brought me to my knees.
 
Allison Kugel: Oh my gosh! I am so sorry. When was that?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: We are going on 9 years now. It seems like yesterday.
 
Allison Kugel: ALS is a brutal disease.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: So hateful. With ALS, the person knows what is happening to them, and they are a prisoner in their own body. They do understand what’s going on, and there is nothing they can do about it. They feel guilty, because everyone else has to take care of them. He couldn’t move at the end. I fed him. I bathed him. I would have to pick him up. I left Hollywood and I went home. I quit [my career] for three years. I quit E! and they would say, “Are you crazy?  You are ruining your career.  No one is going to hire you when you come back.”  I said, “I don’t really care. If you don’t hire me when I come back because I went to take care of my dad, I don’t want to work for you. That is just disgusting. What kind of human are you?” I don’t want to work for a company like that. I have one dad.  There will be a gazillion shows, and you know what, I don’t want to grieve thinking I worked at E!, but I didn’t go home to take care of my dad.
 
Allison Kugel: You did the right thing. It goes without saying. 
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I was taking care of him one day, and it would take him a long time to speak and to get the words out. I had just heard about Fiji on the radio, and I said, “Gosh, I would really love to go there someday.” My dad was trying to say something, and I said, “What?” Struggling to speak the words, he manages to say to me, “Not someday. Today!” I said, “Dad today I’m taking you to physical therapy. How am I going to go to Fiji today?”  He adamantly repeated, “Today.  Look what happened to me. Not someday. Today!”  He said, “Tomorrow is not a promised.”
 
Allison Kugel:  What a life lesson. Right?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I’ve never forgotten. I was always so strong.  I was looking out the window like, “Do not cry. Do not cry in front of him. Be strong.”  I said “You know what? You’re exactly right.”  I stayed as strong as I possibly could in front of him, but I would walk out of rooms sometimes and just lose it.
 
Allison Kugel: Let me ask you this. Do you pray? And if so, who or what do you pray to?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Growing up I was brought up in a Greek Orthodox family, and we went to church every Sunday. We did the Greek Easter and Christmas.  We Fasted for 40 days which is why Greek people are so healthy. When they talk about the Mediterranean diet, I laugh because what most people don’t know about the Mediterranean diet is that Greek people fast for the holidays, which is like 180 days a year that they’re fasting. Fasting to them means no animal products at all. So, at different times of the year, they become vegan. No wonder they are so healthy. People don’t get it (laugh). 

Allison Kugel: Damn, I didn’t know that.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: What they don’t get about the Mediterranean diet is that they reset their bodies.  But yes, we were very spiritual and religious growing up, and I was brought up in the church and I prayed a lot.  I still do, but I pray to God and to the universe. I talk to my dad and my relatives that have passed. I think when you’re praying, you’re putting something out in the universe that is a desire, that you want to have fulfilled, whether it’s healing, happiness, or whatever it is. No matter what you believe in, you can put it out in the universe whether verbally, through meditation or with a manifestation board. It is all the same thing. You’re just calling it different things.
 
Allison Kugel:  I was going to ask you what was the best is advice you’ve ever been given? But I really think that what your dad said is the best advice.  That one word: “Today.” That is great advice. Tell me about the nine years you most recently spent, hosting the morning show, Home & Family on the Hallmark Channel.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: What a great show. I had the most amazing nine years of my career.  People would ask me, “But what about The View? What about E!? What about Entertainment Tonight?”  And I would say, no. With Home & Family, our job was to spread joy. Legitimately, my job every day for nine years was to go to work and make people smile. Not discuss politics, not discuss religion, but to just say, “Hey, how are you doing today?  Spend the next two hours with me.  We are going to bake a cake.  We are going to talk about celebrities and their pet projects.” There wasn’t digging into anything personal, ever. What are you doing to better your life and better the lives of the people around you? It was how to grow some herbs, garden, fix something in your house, make yourself look better for $20. It was a huge love bomb every day.  We would laugh so hard to the point where we would cry. 
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk your skincare line, Ikaria Beauty. I’ve been using your serum; the ageless beauty balm and exfoliating mask and I am in love. My skin feels like I’ve just had a facial, every day.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I am so proud of this, Allison.  I’m so happy that you are saying that.  This was such a labor of love. I have worked so hard on this thing and the world does not need another celebrity backed skincare line. I didn’t even put my name on it, because I don’t want people to think of it as just another backed line. I want people to see it and to experience it for what it really is. In my opinion it is phenomenal, and I did this because I have really awful, awful sensitive skin, to the point where I would get massive hives and crazy pimples. I went to so many dermatologists and spent so much money trying to fix my skin. No one was telling me what is happening and how I can make it better. I started to talk to my mom and my aunts, and they said, “The same stuff we’ve always been using.  We tell you all the time.  Look at our beautiful skin. Honey, olive oil, and goat’s milk.”  I said, “I’m not putting goat’s milk on my skin.” (Laughs) But they were right. I started to look at my cookbook (It’s All Greek to Me/ BenBella Books) and I saw a lot of the same things that they were putting inside of our bodies are going on our bodies. If you live in Greece, it all makes sense. I told my chemists, “The main thing I want you to put in there is olive oil and honey.” We messed around with it.  We went back and forth, and I said, “This is incredible.”  So, I started giving it to everyone in the make-up room and that is how the Ageless Beauty Balm was born. There is honey, olive oil, royal jelly, and holy basil.  It was very important to me that all of these things came from Greece because this is the basis of why I’m doing this. It is as good in my opinion or better than “La Mer” and so many of those other things because all of those things have chemicals in them.  So that means you can wear it during the day and not worry about having light sensitivity. 
 
Allison Kugel: And the serum has a retinol?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: It’s plant retinol, which is another thing these companies don’t tell you. Why don’t they use plant retinol? Because they can make it in a lab for less money. If we use the plant retinol it will take a little bit longer, but it is not going to be so irritating to your skin as a chemical retinol would. Also, the collagen powder by the way that is a marine based collagen powder vs a bovine based collagen powder. Bovine based collagen powders don’t absorb into your body as quickly as marine based.
 
Allison Kugel: I want to go to Ikaria, and I want to use it while I’m there, (laugh) and have the full experience.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos:  What an amazing place.  One of the only five Blues Zones on the planet.
 
Allison Kugel: You have a seven-year-old daughter, right?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos:  That was another defining moment in my life. When she was born.  I mean God that will change you, won’t it?  Having a child deeply changes everything.
 
Allison Kugel:  Everything.  You had your daughter at close to 40 if I’m doing the math right. Did you feel like when you were in your 30’s did you ever have a time where you felt like maybe that wasn’t going to happen in your life or because it did happen a little bit later or you just weren’t there yet?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I just wasn’t there yet. Looking back now I think geez had I known I was going to like being a mother so much I would have started much earlier.  I would have been a teen pregnancy. If I knew I would love being a mom like this, I would have had 20 kids if I could.  Who is going to pay for these people obviously?  But I just think my life from the time I started at MTV until I kind of slowed down with my dad and when my dad passed away was so work focused.  Everything was about work.  Everything.  It wasn’t until my dad got sick and I slowed down that I realized, “Gosh there is so much more to life than me just focusing on this career.  Why am I doing this?  What is the point of doing it if I’m not going to have anyone to share it with?”  I have so many nieces and nephews and that is when I started thinking, “I want a family.”  I guess maybe I was naïve although growing up in a Greek household my mom would say, “My god. You’re 28 years old you’re never going to have a baby.  It’s too late.” (laugh)
I was fortunate enough to be able to have Alexandra and after unfortunately which I have not talked about, but after Alexandra I had such a hard time staying pregnant. I had 9 miscarriages. I was pregnant for like five years straight. Like pregnant and no one knew except the stylist I was pregnant. I would lose them.  Always. The first three were super hard.  The first three were really hard than after that I got to like “Is this a joke?” I’m thinking, “Really?!”
 
Allison Kugel:  It gets surreal.  
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I just didn’t believe it.  It didn’t matter.  I would get pregnant like quick.  Doesn’t matter.  It turned out my blood type is such that after the first baby and the bloods kind of mix your blood kind of mixes so after the first baby because I have O- blood I needed to get a shot every time I was pregnant immediately the minute I knew because your body will try to attack a foreign object. Try to attack it thinking it was poisoning you or something.
 
Allison Kugel: So now that you solved the mystery are you going to try again?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: I don’t know. My heart was broken so many times that I got to a point where I said, “Okay this is what the universe and what God wants, and this is just how it is supposed to be.” So, I just stopped trying. I stopped trying because I just felt so defeated and God, I love babies. When I look at little babies my ovaries hurt.  I say, “Oh my God a little baby I just want to smoosh you.”  The smell of them I love everything about them.  I’d love to be able to give her a sister.  I would have loved to have had… even adoption. You know what I mean? That is not out of the question either. But going through that like that I have a soft spot for anyone who’s ever had a miscarriage. Probably the worst one for me I was probably about 4 months at that point, and I had to host the “Golden Globes Red Carpet” for The Insider.
 
Allison Kugel:  Like right after it happened?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos:  I had the DNC on Saturday and had to host the Golden Globes on Sunday.
 
Allison Kugel:  Oh God.
Debbie Matenopoulos: I still had anesthesia in my body because they put you under, so I was still breaking out.  My make-up artist knew, my hair stylist knew, and the producers knew and I’m standing there trying to do these interviews thinking, “Who cares.  What am I even saying right now?”  I really have a lot of empathy for people who are trying to have children and can’t. I thank my lucky stars every day. Instead of turning it into why me I said thank you God.  Thank you, universe, for giving me Alexandra.
 
Allison Kugel: Your daughter.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos:  One healthy beautiful child because once you have a child you realize why people call it the miracle of childbirth. For the love of God, the fact that we are all walking around with ten fingers and ten toes and something tragic didn’t happen during the pregnancy or during the delivery is mind boggling.  Your thinking, “Yeah of course.  People have babies every day.”  Once you’re in it your thinking, “Oh my.  This is a situation.”  (laugh)
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Oh wow. I think we all come here to learn how to love and how to be loved. I really believe that.  I know it sounds so simple, but no.  Life is hard, man. Life is really hard. I don’t care if you are a billionaire or a pauper.  Life is hard.  I think we are all meant to learn how best to love one another and how best to love ourselves. How to give love.  How to be loved and how to appreciate what we have been given.  Because every single one of us is so fortunate that we woke up today because a lot of people didn’t. That is not lost on me, and I really hope that after this pandemic that it’s not lost on a lot of other people.
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you’ve taught those around you, or those who have watched you, so far, in this life?
 
Debbie Matenopoulos: Maybe acceptance. I hope. I hope I can teach some people about acceptance of themselves. Resilience and being a good person. I just don’t think enough emphasis is put on that. What happened to just being a good person? That is enough.  You are enough.  You are enough as you are waking up today right now in this moment. You’re enough.
 
Allison Kugel: That is beautiful.  I love that.
 
Debbie Matenopoulos:  There is no such thing as perfection. If there was, perfection is boring.  Who wants to be perfect? The world loves you as you are, and everyone has different circumstances, and everyone comes from different places.  Everyone believes the stories in their head because of what somebody told them at some moment in their life, and for whatever reason that moment rang true, and it plays like a broken record. I would like to say scratch all of that.  If I could teach anything, it is that you are your thoughts. Think good things.
 
Learn more about skincare line Ikaria Beauty at ikariabeauty.com and follow on Instagram @iamdebbiem and @ikariabeauty.
 
Watch and listen to the extended interview with Debbie Matenopoulos on the Allison Interviews podcast at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on YouTube.

​By Allison Kugel
 
After being introduced to fans as Charlotte York’s quick witted wedding planner on Sex and the City for four seasons, Mario Cantone brilliantly reprised his role as Anthony Marentino on the HBO Max reboot And Just Like That… And just like that… Cantone’s clever scene stealing moments seamlessly re-captivated the show’s fans. Cantone’s character, Anthony, evolved to become Carrie Bradshaw’s close male confidant in the wake of Stanford’s (played by the late Willie Garson) absence as both characters bonded over losing love and a shared journey through later-life singledom.
 
In this incredibly honest sit down interview, Mario Cantone pulls no punches as he shares his experiences with being a gay man in Hollywood over four decades, his close friend Whoopi Goldberg, his many guest hosting stints on The View, working alongside Sarah Jessica Parker, the perils of woke and cancel cultures, and the famous world events he would change if he could.
 
Allison Kugel: You’re the quintessential New Yorker? How is the city doing lately. There’s been a lot of stuff in the news.
 
Mario Cantone: I think they’re exaggerating. I just got off the subway and I take it all the time.  Look, if something happens to me, I’ll say they’re not exaggerating. I live across the street from the Chelsea-Elliot Projects, which is where Whoopi Goldberg grew up, where the Wayans Brothers grew up, and Tony Orlando.  I have been living in this building since I was 23. I don’t like change. We’ve heard some gun shots around here during COVID, but it’s always kids on kids. It’s never someone being robbed or something like that. We had one incident during COVID where there was a protest up the street, and at 1 in the morning some kids came down and smashed windows and broke into a couple of liquor stores. I thought, “Go smash a Gucci window. What are you doing? What’s wrong with you?  Go smash into a Chase bank. But a mom and pop liquor store?” Although I don’t think they were from this neighborhood. I love this neighborhood very much. I’ve seen all of these kids grow up. They all know me, and I know all of them.  I’ve been loved. I’ve been bullied.  It’s like being in Junior High again (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Speaking of bullying, your career in comedy, television and film has been going on now for more than thirty years. As somebody in the LGBTQ+ community, what has the journey been like for you since you started in the 1980s?
 
Mario Cantone: My first time doing standup, I passed at LA The Improv, which was the big club.  I was in LA for nine months and I auditioned at The Comedy Store and I didn’t pass, probably because of the gayness of it all. I remember being told, “Don’t tell anyone you are gay.” My first year and a half I was killing it, and then all of a sudden, this anxiety set in and I was just terrified all the time. It was just scary; maybe because of being gay and doing mainstream comedy rooms. Once in a while I would do The Duplex or Don’t Tell Mama, which was a mix with gay cabaret rooms, but my main stuff was at The Cellar and The Improv. At the beginning I certainly didn’t say I was gay on stage, but I didn’t lie. I was doing impressions of women, so if you didn’t know, then you were an idiot! The fear of it all was of being on stage at 1 in the morning, and someone calling you a faggot from the back of the room, which did happen once in a while. It happened in Princeton one time. I’ll never forget that. And it happened at the Hyatt Regency, and they did nothing about it. In fact, they punished me. 
 
Allison Kugel: What about being a gay comic on television back then?
 
Mario Cantone: I was booked on Johnny Carson in October of 1986 by the show’s Talent Coordinator. When he saw me, he said, “Oh my God, you’re amazing! We are going to shape six minutes for you. Then he looked at the video again, because he filmed it that night, and he said, “You know what? Your comedy has a gay edge to it and I think it’s going to make Johnny nervous, so I’m going to cancel you.”   
 
Allison Kugel: Wow! 
 
Mario Cantone: That happened a lot. I didn’t get the development deals until much later than everybody else did.
 
Allison Kugel: It must have been such a relief to have been able to portray a gay man on Sex and the City and now on And Just Like That… you were playing a gay man in a stable, loving relationship, and you’re able to represent something that wasn’t represented on television and film, even just twenty years ago.
 
Mario Cantone: No, it wasn’t. It’s gay history on TV.
 
Allison Kugel: It’s history in the making.
 
Mario Cantone: [The late] Willie Garson and I are gay history on TV. I’m gay in real life, so it’s really gay history on TV. Willie was straight and has an adopted son named Nathan, who he just loved. He was the greatest father and loved his son so much. But yeah, it’s like Jesse Tyler Ferguson and Eric from Modern Family. Eric is straight in real life. You know, I find it okay.  Of course if I had the choice, I would like a gay man to play a gay man. But I’m not going to shut the movie down if they don’t do that.
 
Allison Kugel: It’s interesting that you say that, because you hear about other communities getting up in arms with that. For example, when Jennifer Lopez played Mexican Tejano singer, Selena, and they said, “Why couldn’t you find a Mexican actress?” 
 
Mario Cantone: And James Caan played Sonny Corleone [in The Godfather], and he’s Jewish.  Jews play Italians and Italians play Jews.
 
Allison Kugel:  I’m Jewish and you’re Italian. And yeah, we’re kind of interchangeable like that (laughs).
 
Mario Cantone: If it’s an independent film, a television show, or a low budget film, I think a gay person could play a gay person. I think a trans person should play a trans person. I think all of that. But if it’s a major motion picture from Warner Bros or 20th Century Fox, you’re not going to get that movie done unless you have a movie star.  It’s just the way it is. It has always been that way. Brokeback Mountain would have never gotten done without Jake [Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger].

​Allison Kugel: And that makes sense.  Sometimes you have to give something to get something.
 
Mario Cantone: It’s Hollywood. They’re not going to do it any other way because where is the openly gay movie star, leading man? Where is he? Where is the trans movie star that will put people in seats. It doesn’t exist.
 
Allison Kugel: That’s a good question.
 
Mario Cantone: That’s never going to change. Not in my lifetime. There are no openly gay LGBTQ+ movie stars, leading men or leading ladies.  
 
Allison Kugel: There actually were, for decades, without people knowing it.
 
Mario Cantone: There certainly were, and they are. Gay people play straight people all the time, and I think it’s great, but there is maybe one gay role per every five to ten TV shows or movies.
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s back up and talk about Willie Garson, who played your husband on And Just Like That… until his recent passing. Did the cast and crew know that he was battling cancer? Did you know he was sick? 
 
Mario Cantone: I didn’t know until a month in, when he told me and told everyone. Sarah said that she knew and she kept it kind of under wraps, but he told me like a month in.
 
Allison Kugel: Shooting schedules can be long. Did he struggle to get through the work day?
 
Mario Cantone: No, he was great until he just wasn’t there anymore; until he just couldn’t come in, but you would never have known. His energy, his stories; he was hilarious and brilliant, and you unfortunately never got to see what our marriage was going to be, which was going to be very interesting and funny. It was basically two people that argue, fight, and have a very turbulent relationship, yet they can’t live without each other.
 
Allison Kugel: I like the way the absence of the Samantha character was handled, was very good. They didn’t try to replace her, but instead brought in these really amazing women with different points of view and different stories to add to the show.
 
Mario Cantone:  Yes, I think that was really smart, and I actually felt like one of them.  I got to sit down with them at a table read twice, and I got to add to that voice. And now I’ve been put into Carrie’s life as her friend. The character of Stanford (played by the late Willie Garson) was Carrie’s best friend, so it’s not a big leap that I’m in her life now, more and more.  We are both grieving in the show. Stanford left me and Big passed away, so now I’m in her life heavily, and I’m still in Charlotte’s life heavily. I love working with Sarah a lot more this year.
 
Allison Kugel: Sarah Jessica Parker seems like she’s just all heart, like she has this huge, really warm heart. Is that what she is like?
 
Mario Cantone: Oh yes. She’s a mom. She takes care of you. I remember, after one of our first scenes together, she said to (Sex and the City and And Just Like That… creator) Michael Patrick King, “You know that scene with me and Mario? I like that.” So I got her blessing and I love working with her.  I remember turning to her in the scene where I have to tell her that Stanford was divorcing me, and I remember sitting there and I just looked at her and said, “You do this with such ease.” First of all, I think she is better than ever.  She has always been great, but she is at the top of her game.
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about The View. You have been on The View, as a guest host, a lot over the years.  From Rosie O’Donnell to Elisabeth Hasselbeck and now Whoopi Goldberg, co-hosts have stuck their foot in their mouth quite significantly, saying things they came to regret later. What does it feel like being on the panel with all those outspoken women? Is there pressure to bring strong or outrageous opinions to the table?
 
Mario Cantone: You can’t say shit anymore. You can’t say anything. They come after you. I wouldn’t want that job. I would never do it. Joy [Behar] has stuck her foot in her mouth. Whoopi [Goldberg] is one of my closest friends. I adore her, and Joy is too. I didn’t see what Whoopi said, but I know she’s not an antisemite. Period. She has a heart of gold. She stands up for everything. I don’t understand this world anymore, and that is why I don’t really want to do standup anymore. I was never a political comedian, anyway. I wouldn’t want that job. At the time people asked me, “Were you really being considered as a permanent co-host [on The View]?”  No, but it was big press for me.  I ran with it at the time, but it’s a woman’s show. It’s all women. That is the way that Barbara Walters wanted it, and that is the way Whoopi wanted it.
 
Allison Kugel: If you are going to have a forum like that, I think that it should be constructed in such a way where if somebody says something that doesn’t take historical context into consideration, that is where somebody else should say, “Hey, you know what?  Let me explain this to you.” 
 
Mario Cantone: Let’s have a conversation.
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s have a conversation. I think that is where we are missing something. Let’s explain it and turn it into a teachable moment.
 
Mario Cantone: Yes, absolutely. This cancel culture has ruined entertainment, the world, and comedy.
 
Allison Kugel:  Do comedians talk about that?
 
Mario Cantone: Oh yes. Judy Gold talks about that all the time. She wrote a book about it. I think it was called, Yes, I Can Say That. I just saw her do a little bit that was so true.  She said, “I’m up here doing comedy. I don’t know about your childhood trauma. If I trigger you with something, sorry, I’m not psychic.” You know what I want to say to these kids?  Toughen the fuck up. The world is not easy. It’s the cause and effect of having Trump in office. The piggish things that he would say have caused the opposite effect in the extreme liberal world, where they shut it down, every little thing someone says. They don’t allow a teachable moment like you said. 
 
Allison Kugel: How long have you been married now? 
 
Mario Cantone: Legally, I’ve been married for eleven years. We legally got married on October 5, 2011, when it became legal in New York, but we’ve been together for 30 years. We were married by Jay Bakker, Tammy Faye Bakker’s son. I love Jay. Sundance did a documentary series on him called One Punk Under God. I just called him up and said, “I saw your documentary.” I knew he welcomed gay people into his church. I said, “Do you marry gay men?” And he said, “Yes, I just saw you on The View saying we’re getting married.” 

Allison Kugel: How did you know your husband Jerry was The One?
 
Mario Cantone: I knew the night I met him. 
 
Allison Kugel: Shut up!
 
Mario Cantone: I met him on June 20, 1990, but we were just friends for a year and a half.  We were not serious. Then I went to LA in July of 1991 and when I came back in October he started coming around again. Then we spent some time together and we moved in together March 1, 1992.  I knew right away. I could tell just by talking to him. He was just so handsome, but he was also so smart.  He’s a stubborn son of a bitch sometimes, but he’s very fair and he pulls no punches. He’ll tell you if he doesn’t like you. You’ll know it. That is where he is like my father, because when my father didn’t like somebody, they knew about it.  When Jerry meets someone for the first time, he’s pulled back. You kind of have to go to him. Then you see the difference once he gets to know you, and really likes you. He’s just a good guy. He’s got my back. I knew right away.
 
Allison Kugel: What did marriage do for you as a couple?
 
Mario Cantone: It felt different. It felt like, “Okay, this is legal now. This is it.” I’ll tell you when I was younger, like ten years into our relationship, I would not have married him. Not because I didn’t love him, but we are not having kids? Why are we getting married? Then you get older together and legally this needs to be done. We need the benefits and the whole thing. Being sick, being able to be with each other, taxes, all of that. I thought, “I’m not going anywhere. Let’s do this.” 
 
Allison Kugel: Makes sense.
 
Mario Cantone: These kids that get married after just six months or a year [of dating], they’re crazy. It’s going to be all the same shit that straight people go through. 
 
Allison Kugel: Oh, like getting married and then getting divorced?
 
Mario Cantone: Getting married. Getting divorced. Fighting over the kids. Kids? I don’t want kids. Gay people didn’t have kids. I like kids, I just don’t want them. We both agreed on that.  We both did not want children.
 
Allison Kugel: From day one?
 
Mario Cantone: Yes, we knew that. I don’t even have a plant.
 
Allison Kugel: If you could travel back in time and change a famous historical event, where would you go and what would you attempt to change? 
 
Mario Cantone: I would have changed the 2016 presidential election. It’s like that scene in the movie Carrie when Carrie becomes the prom queen and they pour the blood on her. When you asked that question, I was thinking of that Stephen King book, 11/22/63. The guy goes back in time and tries to change the Kennedy Assassination. Also, I would like to go to China three years ago, four years ago, and prevent this [virus] from escaping.  That would be a nice thing to change too. It was the worst case scenario with the worst case scenario president of the time.
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think of people on social media saying that And Just Like That… was trying too hard to be “Woke,” with a lot of its new characters and storylines? 
 
Mario Cantone: I think they have to diversify it. They absolutely had to do that.  Whether you think they went overboard with it or not, you have to figure it out the first year. Then you see, hopefully if there is a second season, what you are going to do. I was really happy with all of it. I love the new women. I was thrilled with it, and I do like this iteration just as much as the old. I like the maturity of it, and selfishly, I love the maturity of Anthony (Cantone’s character). I love that he is kind of still caustic, abrupt, and honest, but he’s evolved.
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Mario Cantone to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Mario Cantone: I feel like I came here to just entertain, I really do. I’m not a teacher. Who the fuck am I to teach anybody anything? At this point in life, it is hard to teach anybody anything because people are very stuck in their ways. It’s all a very knee jerk reaction with canceling and  all that stuff.  How do you unteach that?  How do you teach people, like you said, and have more teachable moments? People resist teachable moments. I came into this world to entertain and hopefully make people forget about that stuff sometimes. I don’t feel like a profit. I’m filled with rage, and I’m filled with joy.
 
Allison Kugel: Interesting. And you made a comment before about a second season of the show.  Do you know if there is going to be a second season?
 
Mario Cantone: As my mother would say, “I’m always the last to know.” I think Michael Patrick King did a magnificent job.  I think everybody in it is phenomenal, and I think the writing is gorgeous and we made a big splash.
 
Catch the first season of And Just Like That… on HBO Max. Follow Mario Cantone on Instagram @mccantone, Twitter @macantone and visit https://www.mariocantone.com/.
 
Watch and listen to the extended interview with Mario Cantone on the Allison Interviews podcast at Apple Podcasts and on YouTube.

​Scott “Carrot Top” Thompson has been making audiences around the world laugh for more than three decades. Since 2005, fans have flocked to his Las Vegas headlining residency at Luxor Hotel and Casino to catch comedy’s King of Props induce sidesplitting laughter with his current take on pop culture, music, and headlines of the day in a continually evolving show.
 
In this insightful and funny sit-down interview with Carrot Top, the veteran comedian gets candid about his upbringing, the reasons he doesn’t ever want marriage or kids, his long time, mega successful Las Vegas residency, his thoughts on Adele’s Las Vegas residency, his close friendship with the late Louie Anderson, the late Bob Saget, and his aversion to using alcohol or drugs as a conduit for creativity.
 
Allison Kugel: You were born Scott Thompson.  How did you get the name “Carrot Top?” Who gave you the name?
 
Carrot Top: Unfortunately, I had something to do with that. It’s a blessing and a curse. Why I did it? I don’t know.  I thought the name Scott Thompson was kind of boring. Well, not kind of, it is. Being a stage performer, I always thought I should have something fun.  Queen Latifah was taken, and so I thought, “Gosh, I need something better.” I went up to the stage one night and said, “Bring me up as Carrot Top.” They said, “Carrot Top? Are you sure?”  I said, “Yes, I’m pretty sure.” And that was it.  I was “Carrot Top” forever. 
 
Allison Kugel: What are the three pivotal events in your life that shaped the human being you are today?
 
Carrot Top: One, of course, is having become a comic, and there was a lot of luck in a sense.  I was a kid when I wanted to do comedy and it was like, “How do you become a comedian?”  There are no comedy schools. Clown school maybe, but there was no stand-up comedy school.  I would really honestly stand in the mirror and just pretend and tell jokes, and then I had this idea, because I kept listening to this comedy club that was down in West Palm Beach, Florida, every day, they had a radio thing where they announced that you could come to their open mic nights.  I went down there one night and watched and got the urge the following week to get involved and do it. I put together what I thought was an act, and I showed up. The woman said, “You were so funny, but the stuff you’re doing is all about [your] college.” She said, “Everyone that comes to this club is not going to be in college. They are going to have jobs, and there might be 40-year-olds, there might be 60 year olds. It’s going to be a collection of different age groups and occupations, so your stuff has to be a little bit more general.” I went back to the drawing board and that’s where all these props kind of came into play. I started thinking of generalized props that kind of got me into doing what I do. That’s a pivotal thing as far as trying to find that personality of who I was going to be on stage.
 
Allison Kugel: Interesting how that evolved.
 
Carrot Top: I came from an interesting life. My dad worked at the space center. It wasn’t a family of entertainment driven people. I’m definitely the oddball, black sheep of the family. My brother went to the Air Force Academy and became an F16 fighter jet pilot. My dad worked at NASA and built spaceships and trained astronauts, and I’m gluing kickstands onto cowboy boots. It just didn’t make any sense.
 
Allison Kugel: What was that conversation like, when you told your dad, “Listen, I’m not following in your footsteps. I’m going to go into comedy.”
 
Carrot Top: It was a very awkward conversation. I’m sure everyone has had it once before with their parents. Because it was so different, I wasn’t like, “Hey I’m going to go into some part of engineering.” It was, “I’m going to be a stand-up comedian.”  He had no idea what the heck that meant. I had gone off to college and I bought this little truck, and my dad says, “How did you pay for that truck?” I said, “Well I’m in school and have been doing these odd jobs.”  He said, “Well, that’s good.”  I had two jobs. I was delivering bread and I was a currier driving across the country dropping off credit reports to banks. That is when I listened to the radio every day. I listened to that comedy thing on the radio every day. They had these open mic nights that I would get involved in and you could win top prizes like twenty dollars… or a kazoo.
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh)
 
Carrot Top: I must have won like 30 of those things. I would go places and say, “Can I sell this kazoo? I need gas money?” I went home one time and my dad said, “Hey, how are things going?”  I said, “Good. I’m paying for my truck. I don’t have a lot of extra cash, but I have a little bit of extra cash. I’ve been doing stand-up comedy things and I get twenty dollars every time I win, so it’s like twenty dollars a week that I usually can count on, because I usually win this [comedy] event.”  He was like, “Wait, stop.  Comedy?  Stand-up comedy?  What are you doing? Are you setting up a comedy show?”  I said, “No, I’m in the show.  I’m actually the comic.”  He said, “But you’re not funny.”  And I said, “I know. It’s the weirdest thing.” My dad eventually came and saw what I did, and he had no idea.  He said, “What part of you did I miss?”  I’m thinking, “A big chunk dad. A big chunk.” 
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Are you an introvert in real life, or is it what you see on stage is what you get? 
 
Carrot Top: No, I’m very shy and inverted. Believe it or not, I’m very shy. People every day would say, “You’re so soft spoken and shy. Then you go on stage and you’re kind of crazy.” I’m very private. I’m not that kind of a weird introvert sitting in a corner by himself, but I usually go out to lunch by myself. 
 
Allison Kugel: I do that too.
 
Carrot Top: I converse with people there, and I’m like Norm from Cheers.  I know everyone at the bar.  As soon as I walk in, it’s not like I’m this lonely guy sitting there. Sometimes people join me. Sometimes they don’t.  I’m definitely a loner.  I come home after the show and I’m a loner.  I just watch TV by myself, write jokes, think of jokes, come up with ideas, and then I go to the show, do the show, and come back home. It’s like Groundhogs Day.  
 
Allison Kugel: You’ve been doing your residency at The Luxor for sixteen years now. What is it about Las Vegas that you love?
 
Carrot Top: It came around by accident, believe it or not. I used to do a couple of weeks at a time at the MGM Grand, seventeen years ago.  It was like a mini residence.  I would go there for two weeks, and then I would go on the road and do shows. Then I would come back and do two weeks and then go back out on the road again. They had brought to my attention that David Copperfield wanted to take over that show room and make me disappear, and so I was thinking, Okay, I guess I’ll go back on the road.” Then my manager says, “There is a room open at the Luxor right across the street.” We walked over one night and looked at it. I was then told, “This will be full time. You’ll be here every night.”  I wasn’t ready to be a resident headliner. I was reluctant. I said, “Let’s do a year and see how it goes.”  It was horrible for that first year.  I was living in the hotel. It was just not a good time. Things weren’t working. Shows were tough and I was losing my mind, and thinking I have to get out of this gig. Then one day it was really weird, I just started having fun and it started to click. It was kind of cool because I wasn’t having to travel. I agreed to do another two years, making it a three-year deal, and at that point we really got into a groove.  It wouldn’t make any sense for me not to be in Vegas. Then I agreed to a five-year deal.” Then it became a ten-year deal, and now it’s been sixteen years and counting.  You’re in one place and people come to you, as opposed to you going to them. I’ve gotten used to the room. We just did this brand-new bit about Adele. I could go on stage and knock it out and not have to be on the road traveling with it. Then I can come home and hang out with my dog, and I’m in bed by 11pm watching TV. 
 
Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts on the Adele residency debacle?  Do you think it really had to do with COVID? Do you think it had to with some of the technical things that she wanted for the show? What goes into putting together a Las Vegas residency of that magnitude, that maybe people don’t understand?
 
Carrot Top: I think all three of those things are relevant and valid points. Putting on a show, even my little show, it takes a lot, and also, I’ve been lucky because I’ve been doing mine for sixteen years, so we kind of got it down. We know what we are doing. We have production.  We have lights, smoke, and fog, but it’s a lot of work to put on a production, especially one of that magnitude and with her name, the room. There’s a lot of pressure to put on a nice show. I really don’t know what happened because they haven’t given anybody any answers. They kind of said it’s something about COVID and she came out and said she wasn’t ready.  That’s the joke of my show. I make fun of that. I re-show the clip when she says, “I’m sorry, I wasn’t ready.”  And I said, “Ready? Who the hell is ready?  I haven’t been ready in thirty-six years.  We do this every night not ready. There is no such thing.”
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Exactly.  I wasn’t ready today to talk to you. Who’s ready?
 
Carrot Top: Right. That’s what life’s about. Don’t book a show bitch. That’s what I do in my show, you know, and then I do three Adele songs that aren’t Adele songs. They are Lionel Richie singing Hello, and it’s kind of funny. That’s my take on it. But if it was COVID related, then you probably should stick to that, you know? Just say, “Half of our crew has COVID, and we couldn’t rehearse, so we weren’t ready in that regard.” That would have been better than saying, “I wasn’t ready.”  I’m surprised her people didn’t say to her, “Don’t say we’re not ready.”
 
Allison Kugel: Seriously. And you make a good point. In life you are never going to be 100% ready for anything.
 
Carrot Top: Like, look at my hair. My hair is not ready.
 
Allison Kugel: Yeah, I wasn’t going to say anything (laugh)…
 
Allison Kugel: Are you one of those people who is going to eventually retire and have a retirement, or are you going to die on stage?
 
Carrot Top: I might die during this interview.
 
Allison Kugel: Please don’t.
 
Carrot Top: It would be good for you. But seriously, I haven’t figured it out. I never think about that.  The older I get, the better I feel and the more I feel like I know what I’m doing. I’ve never been in more of a comfort zone than I am now in my career.  I used to get very nervous, just overly nervous about the whole show, and worried about if one joke didn’t get a laugh or one thing didn’t go right, I would lose my mind. Now it’s loose, it’s free, and it’s taken years to get to that. That is where I’m at now, and I don’t ever foresee not doing this. I can’t imagine what I would do. So, I don’t understand. Retire from what? I think when most people do retire, they are over. I’ve never seen anyone that has retired who has gone on and done something amazing.  They kind of just get old, retire, and get boring. They just disappear.
 
Allison Kugel: The concept of retirement started with the Industrial Revolution where you put in your 40 years to get job security and a pension, benefits and all that, and then you were able to go and actually live your life. But if you are doing your life’s work, then it’s fluid, right?
 
Carrot Top: True. I kind of felt that way during COVID when it first happened. Halfway through that year, I was starting to lose my mind. When I’m not in Vegas, I live in Florida in a lovely house on the lake, and it’s beautiful. But I’m on my boat and we are barbequing, and it’s fun, and then a month later I’d say, “What’s going on tomorrow?”  Oh, more boating and more barbequing. No! I need to go be funny. I can crack up my friends on the boat, but it wasn’t the same.  I was missing that element of being on stage and doing the show. 

​Allison Kugel: Yes, that sucks. I can see that. You strike me as a Peter Pan kind of a guy, kind of like you live life as if you are forever thirty years old. Do you feel like that?
 
Carrot Top: Yes. I very much need to grow up. My friends would tell me that, but I’m lucky in that regard, because I am a child. I consider myself a young child.  What I do for a living is one thing, but I like being youthful.  I like hanging out with young people, but I have a lot of structure in my life.  A lot of entertainers and comics are reckless, like rock stars.  I’m very regimented. I never go out. I don’t think I’ve been to a club or a party in twenty years. After this I will take my dog to lunch and I’ll go to the gym, and I’ll go to the show. 
 
Allison Kugel: Do you ever want to get married or have kids?
 
Carrot Top: I don’t think so. It’s hard enough just taking care of me. I can’t imagine taking care of a wife and kids. I’m enough.
 
Allison Kugel: The late Bob Saget said such beautiful things about you and your career before his passing. Did you just know him in passing, or were you friends?
 
Carrot Top: I knew him in a very small capacity, which was wild that he was so friendly towards me. I knew he was a nice man. He knew a lot of my friends, more so than me. But every time my friends would bring my name up to him, they would always say, “Bob loves you, just so you know.”  It’s kind of a thing with comics. You want a lot of comics to like you and sometimes they don’t like other comics. Whether it’s a jealous thing or they just don’t think you’re funny.  Bob was always one of those guys that really loved and respected me, and I know this, again, through second and third parties. I think the one time we actually spoke at an event he said, “Oh man, you were funny! I said, “You’re funny.”  And he said, “No really, you were great.” But we didn’t know each other that well. Then when he passed, and I got all these people sending me clips of him with his nice words about me it was very sweet.  I loved that everything I read about Bob, even after his passing, was about what a good guy he was. I hope when I die that is what people say about me. “Scott, you know, God he was such a nice guy.”  That’s the reason you get into this business. I think back about the very first time I wanted to be a comedian; it was because I wanted people to like me. I wanted people to laugh and say, “You’re fun to hang out with. You’re funny.”  We’re all comics in the same group. We’re all trying to make people laugh and heal. All of us, as successful comics, should be overly happy and nice to people. They’ve been successful at a job that is so hard to get successful in. 
 
Allison Kugel: You mentioned healing people with laughter. Do you think there is a spiritual aspect to what you do as a comedian?
 
Carrot Top: Absolutely. First of all, I’m very spiritual and I think that there is no way there can’t be a correlation between smiling, laughing, feeling good, and healing. That is why they send clowns into children’s hospitals, and even dogs. They bring in things to make the kids that are sick smile. These kids are laughing, and they are not thinking about their cancer. I have had thousands and thousands of encounters and letters in my career that would shock you.  Handwritten letters from families, from people of all ages that have written me letters that say, “You have no idea how you have helped my father live through his last days. We watched your movie. He was so depressed. For his last trip he wanted to go see you in Las Vegas. He was sick, and they got him on a plane to come and see you.” It’s almost a weight on your back. You have this [responsibility] and you have to keep that in mind. Like every time you go on stage, you think to yourself that there is someone out there that needs you, literally.
 
Allison Kugel: Was there ever a time when people’s criticism of your comedy got to you?  And are you a self-critical person, or do you let yourself off the hook pretty easily? 
 
Carrot Top: Mostly, my whole career, it hurt my feelings until recently. It’s human nature that you want everyone to love you, and it’s kind of like a cliché, but you can’t please everybody, and not everybody is going to love you dude. They’re just not. There are going to be some people out there that are going to say, “Carrot Top? Nope, not good. Not a fan.”  The other day I saw the Rolling Stones show. It was unreal, and my friend said, “Ah really? You couldn’t pay me to go to that.” I’m thinking, “What?!” It is what it is. People have always, from day one since I got into this business, they always made fun of me, I think just the red hair, the freckles, the name, the props, just everything.  It was a whole smorgasbord of just not liking me. A lot of it was comics that were just jealous because I had gotten some success. I was on The Tonight Show, I was on Live! With Regis & Kelly, I did a movie, so they were kind of like, “What the heck? I don’t get it.”
 
Allison Kugel: Because it wasn’t cerebral humor, like a Jerry Seinfeld where you’re telling stories and making observations…
 
Carrot Top: Right. It was kind of low brow comedy, which is funny, because when I make these props, they are kind of clever. I’ve had challenges with comics before, where I’ve said, “You get a week to come up with a clever prop.” It would hurt me, hurt me, and hurt me, and one day a bell just went off and I just thought, “consider the source.” When I would go to school and get picked on, I would come home all upset.  My mom would ask, “What’s wrong?” I said, “They picked on me at school.”  She would ask who it was and what the circumstances where and she would say, “Consider the source.  He’s picking on you because he’s not happy with himself and because you’re skinny and he is not.”  I now use that philosophy in my business world. I would go to the clubs and all the comics loved my act and respected it. George Carlin came over and said he liked my act.  Chris Rock came over, Jay Leno, Bill Maher. All the comics that have made it and are successful are fans of mine.  I would see Garry Shandling and he would say, “You have some funny stuff.” Then I would go to the club and there would be some guy from Oklahoma doing two minutes in a set that would sit there and talk behind my back.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you ever pray, and if so, who or what do you pray to?
 
Carrot Top: I am a big prayer.  A lot of times I pray for general things like my family, my health, my career. In Florida I would go on this run and when I run there’s a big, huge church I run to. It’s the halfway point. It’s a beautiful big church and I always do a little prayer. I pray for my God daughter, my family, my health, my mom’s health, my dog’s health.  Pretty much just kind of like my friends and my family and sometimes even greater things like with COVID.  I would say, “Can you make this all go back to normal life?” Then sometimes, more specifically, my friend Louie Anderson just passed away. Louie Anderson was like my brother. We had a very close relationship, and [his death] came very suddenly. I went to the hospital, and I was holding his hand the last day he was there, and it was rough. 
 
Allison Kugel: Did you ever talk to him about his health, or taking better care of himself?
 
Carrot Top: Back in the day for him, it was always a joke. He would say, “Yeah, I’m heavy.”  He would look at me and I weigh 140 pounds, and he would say, “I can’t be skinny like you.” He tried all the time to lose weight. I will say one thing, every time we went out, he always said, “I’ll have chicken.”  And he would say he was going to go run or walk, and he had bad knees.  He was always in bad health, but he was always aware of it and always trying to do better. I would see him, and he would say, “I lost 10 pounds!”  He wanted people to know it… and then cancer. He couldn’t figure out a way to beat the cancer. 
 
Allison Kugel: What is the greatest advice you ever received?
 
Carrot Top: It might not be one thing that one person has told me. It’s kind of me being on this planet and giving me my own advice. I know to be a good soul. I know to be kind to people. I know to work hard. I know to not get into fights. I know to not start fights or gossip about people. I know to not steal jokes. I never do a New Year’s resolution because I don’t do anything that I would need to do differently. Although there was one piece of advice given to me by Buddy Hackett.  I was in an airport, and I said, “Oh my God, it’s Buddy Hackett! Wow.”  I walked over to him and said, “Buddy. Wow! I’m a comic and just wanted to say that you’re brilliant.” When I was a young comic, he was on The Tonight Show all the time. He said, “I’m going to give you some advice.” I said, “Okay what is the advice?”  He wrote on a napkin, “The key to the treasure is the treasure.”
 
Allison Kugel: That’s a brain twister.
 
Carrot Top: So, I get on the plane and I’m staring at it for five or ten minutes, trying to break it down. Like, what the hell?  Was he drunk? I think a friend of mine explained it to me. The key to life is life. Live for today. The key to happiness is happiness. Very simple and yet very true. The key to everything is for us living today and the key to success and the key to love, finding love is finding love. 

Allison Kugel: It is being it, and embodying it, and being in the moment.
 
Carrot Top: Yes. I thought that was great.  Pretty cool advice and made you kind of have to think a little bit.
 
Allison Kugel: Have you ever felt that you had to use substances, like weed or whatever, to come up with material?
 
Carrot Top: No, completely sober. I don’t smoke marijuana. I never have. I don’t think I have been drunk since high school, literally. I drink enough to get drunk. I have friends, like Gene Simmons per se, he’s never had a drop of booze, zero. I’m not that pure. I definitely have a little Crown on the rocks right before a show.  We do a ceremonial shot of Crown, then I do the show. Then I’ll come home and watch TV with a glass of red wine. A couple lines of coke and…. Just kidding. I’m definitely not the drug guy. I’m actually more of a nerd than anything else.
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, I’m seeing that but in a good way. Have you ever had to confront a comic for either stealing a joke or stealing a part of your act?
 
Carrot Top: Other comics will get like that sometimes. There was one incident with Dennis Miller, where he had a thing against me.  It was a story that was misconstrued, and he thought this happened and this happened, and he was always mad at me. When I talked to him in person, he realized he was wrong and now we are best friends. Gallagher had a little spat with me one time. He said, “Why did you steal my act?”  I said, “Which act?  What are you talking about?”  We ended up talking it through and I didn’t steal his act. He just had this feeling that what I did was touching his type of thing. Was similar and I explained to him “We’re not even close.” He said, “Okay, well never mind.”
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Scott Thompson aka “Carrot Top” to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach? 
 
Carrot Top: Wow, good questions! How to get along with other humans and learn how to be a good guy. Literally, where you’re always about love and listening to other people, hearing their problems, and becoming a human being on this planet. It’s like if every day you go to this bar and you see the same people in that bar, and everyone gets along because they’re all in that bar and they are friends. Well, take that outside of the bar and do that everywhere you go.  Everywhere you go, when you walk into a store, or walk into a mall, be just as nice to everyone in that mall, same as you would be at the bar with those people that you know and see every day. That kind of thing. There is no reason why we can’t have that.
 
Allison Kugel: And what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Carrot top: I’m here to teach well probably the same.  You want to learn how to become a good person and you want to teach people how to do that as well.  Being a performer it’s kind of weird.  I always feel like I wanted to be a teacher when I was in school.  I had a chalk board, I used to pretend I was writing things on the chalkboard, and I had my little bell.  Then I got into comedy. In a sense you are almost teaching every night. You have a new audience, a new classroom of people, and you’re teaching them. How lucky am I in my job?  I go to work every night and tell jokes.
 
Tickets for Carrot Top’s Show at the Luxor Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas are available at luxor.mgmresorts.com and at carrottop.com. Follow on Instagram @carrottoplive.
 
Watch and listen to the extended interview with Carrot Top on the Allison Interviews podcast at Apple Podcasts and on YouTube.

​By Allison Kugel
 
Academy Award winning actress Geena Davis has spent decades breaking down barriers for women with powerfully resonate on screen portrayals that have transcended entertainment and inspired seismic cultural shifts in how women are viewed in art and real life.
 
Davis made her feature film debut starring opposite Dustin Hoffman in the classic 1982 classic comedy, Tootsie, and she went on to star in such films including The Fly, Beetlejuice, The Accidental Tourist, Thelma & Louise, Hero, The Long Kiss Goodnight, Stuart Little, and A League of Their Own.
 
From the quirky and offbeat dog trainer Muriel Pritchett in Lawrence Kasdan’s The Accidental Tourist, for which she won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress, to her Academy Award nominated and Golden Globe nominated performance as Thelma in Ridley Scott’s Thelma & Louise alongside Susan Sarandon, to leading the cast of Penny Marshall’s A League of Their Own opposite Tom Hanks; Geena Davis has portrayed characters who claim their own narrative and make us reimagine womanhood. Geena Davis’s roles have remained evergreen in their ability to reflect the human condition, brilliantly, long after their release.
 
In 2019 Davis was honored with a second Oscar trophy, this time the Academy’s Jean Hersholt Humanitarian Award, in recognition of her work over the decades to achieve gender parity onscreen in film and television.
 
Ahead of her time, Davis also earned the 2006 Golden Globe Award for Best Performance by an Actress in a Television Dramatic Series for her portrayal of the first female President of the United States in the ABC television series Commander in Chief.
 
Geena Davis is the archetype fearless female who gets it done. Yet, to speak with her is to witness a soft spoken and centered human being who draws you into her space with carefully cultivated wisdom that doesn’t need to shout to be heard. A world-class athlete (at one time the nation’s 13th-ranked archer) and a member of Mensa, most recently, she is recognized for her tireless advocacy of women and girls nearly as much as for her acting accomplishments. Davis is the Founder and Chair of the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, which engages film and television creators to dramatically increase the percentage of female characters — and reduce gender stereotyping — in media made for children 11 and under.
 
Allison Kugel: What are the three major life events that shaped the human being you are today?
 
Geena Davis: The first one would be having the parents that I did. Both of them were great, but particularly, my dad was very encouraging in a subtle way. Whenever he was doing something, like working on the car, shingling the roof, or whatever, it was he who would have me come along with him just as a matter of course. I grew up feeling like there wasn’t anything I wasn’t supposed to do, and also feeling very capable, which I’ve taken into my life. Another one would be getting to work with Susan Sarandon. She had the most impact of any person in my life, because I’d never really spent time with a woman who moves through the world the way she does. It sounds crazy to be 33 years old at the time and first experiencing a woman like that, but I really had previously never met a woman who didn’t preface everything with, “Well, I don’t know what you will think, and this is probably a stupid idea, but…”
 
Allison Kugel: Really? Interesting…
 
Geena Davis: Yes. She just lived her life and said, “This is what I think.” To have three months of exposure to that was amazing. And obviously the third biggest impact on my life was becoming a mother.
 
Allison Kugel: Same here! I want to ask you, regarding Susan Sarandon, when you watched her move with such confidence, and I’m assuming this was on the Thelma & Louise set, how was she received by male co-stars, producers, writers, the film’s director (Ridley Scott)?
 
Geena Davis: As completely normal, which was also stunning to me. The way I was raised was to be extremely polite, to a fault. I was sort of trained not to ask for things and not to be any trouble to anybody, but she obviously wasn’t (laughs), so she just said things the way she wanted to say them, like, “Let’s cut this line,” or “Let’s do it this way,” or “This is what I would like to do.”  There wasn’t any reaction whatsoever from anybody of, like, “Wow!,” partly because she didn’t present herself as combative. She was always just like, “This is what I want. This is what I like. This is what I think.”
 
Allison Kugel: I love it, and I love the fact that you said your dad didn’t place any limitations on you.  Do you have brothers?
 
Geena Davis: I do. I have an older brother and he, of course, did all of that stuff as well with my dad, but I did it too! My dad didn’t seem to have the impression that I should just be learning stuff that my mom would teach me. It was very natural for him to include me in everything.
 
Allison Kugel: That is pretty awesome. To unpack your third major life event, motherhood, did you feel instantly reborn when you had your fist child, or was it more of a subtle shift for you?
 
Geena Davis: I don’t know that I would say I felt reborn, but it certainly changes your life dramatically. I had my daughter first, and very clearly started seeing the world through her eyes, and it has just been magical.
 
Allison Kugel: I want to talk about the Oscars and your Best Supporting Actress Oscar win for The Accidental Tourist. I think so many actors, and especially actresses, see an Oscar win as their ticket to being treated as an equal in the film industry. Like, if you get that gold statue, you are now an equal and you are going to be treated with a certain level of reverence and respect, and you are going to get substantial roles and you can exhale and just relax. Was that your experience, where you felt like, “Okay, I’ve arrived.”? Or did you still feel like you had more to prove?
 
Geena Davis: Well, I didn’t ever think, “This is my magic ticket to…”
 
Allison Kugel: Equality (laugh)?
 
Geena Davis: … Doing everything I want to do, or like now I was at the top of the A-list, or anything like that. I didn’t think of it that way, but I did unexpectedly feel a tremendous feeling of having accomplished something. I thought, “Well, I got that out of the way. I never have to wonder if I’m going to get one of these things.”
 
Allison Kugel: They didn’t have the term “bucket list” at the time, but I hear you.
 
Geena Davis: Absolutely. I thought, “Well, I got this out of the way early. That’s cool.” 
 
Allison Kugel: Very cool! I know, philosophically and humanly speaking, we can all fall into this mindset of, “When I get this, I’ll be happy.” Whether it’s getting married, winning an award, making a certain amount of money, becoming a parent; whatever it is for people. Are you one of those people that sees life that way, or do you believe in the journey as opposed to the destination?
 
Geena Davis: I’m more of a journey person. I haven’t, in my life, been clamoring for the next thing that will make me fulfilled. I get a lot of fulfillment from what I do, and just living my life.  Speaking of winning the Oscar, and does it change how people see you and everything? I had two directors, after I won the Oscar, who I had a rocky start with, because they assumed that I was going to think I was all that, and they wanted to make sure that I didn’t feel like I was all that. Without having met me or having spent any time with me or anything, they just assumed I was going to be like, “Well, now no one is going to tell me what to do.”
 
Allison Kugel: You kind of had to go out of your way to let people know you were down to earth.
 
Geena Davis: I just am. 
 
Allison Kugel: I don’t think a male actor would have had to prove he is still nice and cooperative, and down to earth.
 
Geena Davis: Yes, and I think maybe because I was a woman, that the directors felt that way. And maybe it was even unconscious bias that they would maybe do it to a woman and not a man. But they didn’t want a woman to potentially cause them any problems. They wanted to make sure I knew my place, and maybe you’re right, it probably wouldn’t happen to a man. 

Allison Kugel: We already talked about working with Susan Sarandon, but generally speaking, what did doing the film Thelma & Louise, and its subsequent success, do for you, both as an actor and as a woman?
 
Geena Davis: I had read the script for Thelma & Louise after it had already been cast. I thought, “Oh my God! This is the best script I’ve ever read. I wish I could be in it.” I ended up having a year-long pursuit for the role, because Ridley Scott was only the producer at that time, and different directors and different pairings of ‘Thelmas’ and ‘Louises’ were coming together and falling apart, and so for a year my agent called at least once a week to say, “Just so you know, Geena is still available. She’s still interested.”  Then when [Ridley Scott] decided he was going to direct it, he immediately said, “Yes. Okay sure, I’ll meet with her,” and I convinced him somehow or another (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Way to play hard to get Geena (laugh).
 
Geena Davis: (Laughs)
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about male and female pairings in film. Normally, it’s very common to have a 50-year-old or even a 60-year-old leading man opposite a 30-year-old leading lady. That’s just kind of been the norm, although there are a few exceptions, and that is what our eyes are used to seeing. I know that kind of sucks, but how do you feel when an older woman is cast opposite a younger man?  Do you see that as a win for more mature actresses? 
 
Geena Davis: Let’s see… in Thelma & Louise they cast Brad Pitt to be my sort of…. love interest, and it wasn’t actually because he was younger. They didn’t purposely try to cast someone younger than me. He just gave the best audition and he was the best choice. But I thought that was pretty cool.  He’s only, like, seven years younger than me, but I thought that was quite cool that they did that.
 
Allison Kugel: We are all a bit societally conditioned to look at it sideways if the man and woman on screen are exactly the same age. If you put a leading man who is 50 with a leading woman who is 50 or even 45,  I feel like that would almost look odd to us, the audience, because we are so brainwashed.
 
Geena Davis: It’s very strange and so prevalent. A certain male actor that was making a movie said that I was too old to be his romantic interest, and I was 20 years younger than him. You know what it is? Women peak in their 20s and 30s, and men peak in their 40s and 50s as far as actors go. So the male stars of the movies want to appear to be younger than they are, or they want to appeal to younger people, so they always want a co-star who is really young. I guess it’s to make them seem whatever, but that is why that happens and that is why women don’t get cast very much after 40 and 50. It is because they are felt to be too old to be a romantic interest.
 
Allison Kugel: Tell me what inspired you to create the Geena Davis Institute on Gender and Media. Was it one thing or many things?
 
Geena Davis: It was one very specific thing. I had my awareness raised about how women are represented in Hollywood in Thelma & Louise, and seeing the reaction. It was so extreme if people recognized us on the street, or wherever, and it made me realize that we really give woman so few opportunities to feel like this after watching a movie, to identify with the female character or characters and live vicariously through them. I decided I was going to pay attention to this and try to choose roles that make women feel good. So I had a very heightened awareness of all of this, and then when my daughter was two, I sat down and watched pre-school shows and G-rated videos with her, and from the first thing I watched I immediately noticed there were far more male characters than female characters in a pre-school show. I thought, “Wait a minute, this is the 21st Century. How could we be showing kids an imbalanced world?”  I saw it everywhere, in movies, on TV. I didn’t intend at that moment to launch an institute about it, but I found that no one else in Hollywood seemed to recognize what I saw. I talked to lots and lots of creators who said, “No, no, no. That’s not a problem anymore. It’s been fixed.” That’s when I decided I’m going to gather the data, because I think I’m really right here. I’m going to get the data and I’m going to go directly to the creators of children’s content and share it with them privately, because I know this is unconscious bias at this point. So that is what we did, and that is what we have continued to do.
 
Allison Kugel: Did you think back in 1991, after the success of Thelma & Louise and the overwhelmingly positive feedback you received, that the barn door was blown open and you would see many more female driven stories now?  I remember when the movie Bridesmaids came out several years ago, and it was that same feeling once again of “this is it!” Universal didn’t even want to make Bridesmaids at first. It wasn’t until the success of the movie that they thought, “okay, maybe we’ll make another one.” You know what I mean? 
 
Geena Davis: Oh gosh, yes. What happened was, when it really took off and struck a nerve, the press, as one united body said, “This will change everything.” That was all the headlines. “Now everything is going to change. So many more movies starring woman and blah, blah, blah…”  I thought, “Hot dog! I’m going to sit here and wait for this to happen.” Then my very next movie was A League of Their Own, and a similar thing happened where all the press said, “This changes everything. Now we are going to see woman in sports movies.”  It was a very big hit. I’m thinking “Okay. Here is me being able to change the world!” (Laugh) or being part of movies that will change everything, and it profoundly did not happen. Then I started to notice every four years or so a movie would come out where they would say, “This one is going to change everything.” Like First Wives Club was very big where they said, “This changes everything. Now we’re going to see movies staring 50 year old woman left and right.”
 
Allison Kugel: And then… it didn’t happen (laugh).
 
Geena Davis: It didn’t happen, but I remember reading about when Bridesmaids came out, and the thought before it ever came out was if this fails it will destroy movies for woman (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Damn, no pressure.
 
Geena Davis: No pressure. And thankfully it was a giant hit, but that still didn’t fix anything at all. People in Hollywood are still resistant to the idea, even though they know my institute found in 2017 or 2018 that movies starring women made more money than movies starring men. It’s been blockbuster after blockbuster starring women, and it’s about time to get with the program.  

​Allison Kugel: Yes, seriously. Tell me how you are getting your organization’s data into the right hands?  You’re gathering what I would call evidence-based information, so it’s not just anecdotal evidence. You’re getting science backed, evidence-based information and data. How are you going about getting that into the right hands?
 
Geena Davis: My thoughts from the beginning was since I’m in the industry I can get meetings with all the people I want to share this with, so that I didn’t have to try to influence the public to rise up and demand this.  I could go in a very friendly way privately with my colleagues and share the information with them.  The universal reaction when people first hear it is, they are stunned. Their jaws are on the ground, and they cannot believe it, especially the people that make kids’ entertainment. They can’t believe they weren’t doing right by girls. The combination of seeing the data proved that there is a big problem, and then realizing they want to to do right by kids has been the magic formula in creating change, which is very exciting.
 
Allison Kugel: When I was watching a lot of children’s programming with my son, who is now 12, I definitely saw an interesting progression in content. Everything from the way girls are presented to the way interracial families are presented, to LGBTQ+ characters on television.  There is so much stuff that is being worked into the content to make a new generation of kids really open to the concept of equality and inclusiveness.
 
Geena Davis: There definitely is. In fact, we have met one of our goals which was to get more female leads in entertainment made for children and families. We have achieved that. In fact, we have achieved one of our goals, which was to get half of the lead characters in children's and family television programming and in movies to be half female. Just last year we did reach that milestone of being 50/50 in male female in both of those medias so yeah, we are very thrilled about that.  We have other goals but that is a big change because the first study we did way back in the beginning female characters where…. Female leads were 11 percent at that time and now it is 50 percent.
 
Allison Kugel: You told me you were raised to be extremely polite, but yet there is an interesting dichotomy there. You were raised with what I call “the disease of politeness” that girls in my generation and your generation, we were kind of infused with it. But at the same time you were also raised by your father who was quite inclusive with a lot of things that were traditionally male. In what ways are you raising your daughter similarly to how you were raised, and in what ways you are raising her differently from how you were raised?
 
Geena Davis: Well, it’s all been quite different. She was just born the way she is, which is very self-confident and poised. I tell her, “I will never be as poised as you are.” I wanted to be her popular culture literacy educator. That is why I started the whole institute, was because I realized when I first saw that first television program I thought, “Oh no. Kids are being raised from minute one to accept that men and boys are more important than woman and girls.  I can’t prevent her from growing up knowing that woman are thought of as second class citizens, but I’ll do everything I can to change that for her.” With her and with my boys, I did the same thing. I always watched with them. whatever my boys were watching, like you did with your son, I could say, “Did you know that there is only one girl in that whole movie?  Did you notice that?” Or, “Do you think girls can do what those boys are doing?” Or, “Why do you think she is wearing that if she is going to go rescue somebody?  Don’t you think that’s strange?” They became very savvy. Then they started noticing things before I did. So that was great.
 
Allison Kugel: What is really cool is that they were actually interested in the questions you were asking and receptive to it. I would imagine that you raised your boys to be very conscious young men in terms of how to treat a woman and how to view women.  Can you tell me a little about that?
 
Geena Davis: It’s not just for women that we need to show more women on screen. My goal is to have fictitious worlds reflect reality, which is ½ female and incredibly diverse; which is 40 percent people of color, 20 percent with different abilities. Forty percent are heavy body types, and the representation of people with different gender identities and all of that, it barely registers.
 
Allison Kugel: What is so interesting is that society kind of goes in a loop, right?  You’ve got reality, then you have art, then you have people looking at art and then incorporating that into their reality. It’s like a circle. Think about how many people are influenced by television, film, music, and then that influences how they show up in our culture, which then shapes our “reality.”
 
Geena Davis: Oh, absolutely. You think these are just harmless pieces of entertainment, but they cause tremendous change that we have measured. FOX asked us to do a study on the Dana Scully character from X-Files to find out what impact she had on women going into STEM careers. We found that 58 percent of woman who are currently in STEM jobs named that character, specifically, as their inspiration to go into a STEM career. That’s just one character on one TV show. It’s really incredible.
 
Allison Kugel: Mind blowing.
 
Geena Davis: In 2012, girls’ participation in archery shot up 100 percent and it was because Brave and The Hunger Games both came out in the summer of 2012, and girls left the theater and bought a bow.
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about the recent study, Women Over 50, The Right to Be Seen on Screen. Can you tell me a little bit about that study and how that is being presented to the entertainment industry, and what you hope to accomplish with it?.
 
Geena Davis: I hope to accomplish getting more jobs (laugh). You can tell that there are very few parts for woman over 50, but we found that characters over 50 are 20 percent of characters on screen, so that is pretty low.  How many people are over 50? But women are only a quarter of those characters. Woman over 50 are five percent of characters on screen in film and television. And those commonly cast as supporting characters and minor roles are less likely to be developed with interest in characteristics or certainly to be romantic interests. We are using our same philosophy of working directly with the film studios and television networks to get them this information and share it with them, and encourage them to make some changes. So I think this will be very impactful.
 
Allison Kugel: What has been the feedback?
 
Geena Davis: Great feedback, and again, people were surprised. They did not know it was unconscious bias, so we are looking to see some important change happen.

By Allison Kugel
 
In this eclectic interview, Damon Dash and fiancée Raquel “Rocky” Horn, take me behind the scenes and into their day-to-day life as parents to their one year old son, Dusko, their plant-based lifestyle, and even their son’s guitar lessons (yes, he takes guitar lessons.). 
 
They share candid and unfiltered information about their intimate life, their long term engagement, how they’re raising their son, and why Damon chose to participate in the newly released documentary film, They’re Trying to Kill Us, which examines chronic illness and early deaths among underserved communities of color.
 
In the second half of the interview, Dame gets real about living with PTSD, his love of weed, and his thoughts on the recent Astroworld Music Festival tragedy that claimed ten lives and injured hundreds of other concert goers.  
 
Allison Kugel: Your son, Dusko, is the cutest!
 
Dame Dash:  Thank you. I appreciate that. He has brought so much joy to us, and my whole family.
 
Allison Kugel: Both of you have been on a plant-based journey for a long time. Who led the way on that?   
 
Dame Dash: We do everything together. There is nothing we do not do together.
 
Allison Kugel:  But who was it that said, “Let’s eat plant based?”
 
Dame Dash: Rocky wanted to go plant based for a while, but I ate very simple things at the time; cheeseburgers, chicken fingers, not very healthy. I was always disgusted by myself for that, so there would be times when she first met me, that I was a vegetarian.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: He never ate anything that looked like an animal, so there was never a meat on a bone situation. Never anything that looked or reminded him of an animal, so no seafood, ever.   
 
Allison Kugel: It had to be in a nugget.  It couldn’t look like a chicken, right (laughs)?
 
Dame Dash: It was me not exactly addressing the truth, so after a while she was starting to transition off of meat and she was cooking a certain way to transition me. She was sneaking it in, because she is sneaky. We watched the documentary, What the Health, and that day, after I saw the puss and the doo doo, and the cancer, and the diabetes; logically, I could not ever go back to even taking a bite [of meat] once in a while. I remember a week or two, after I tried to take a bite at the farmer’s market…
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: No, we went to the Jamaican place and there was oxtail, and he just said, “I’m going to have to order a sample to see it.” He then went and threw up in the bathroom.  
 
Dame Dash: I just couldn’t do it.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: We started this network called the Dash Diabetes Network. Damon is a Type 1 diabetic, and in my research of learning about diabetes I just started seeing that it was all going back to dairy and meat products. The information was everywhere, and all of a sudden What the Health came out and just confirmed it.
 
Dame Dash: We had just gotten a bunch of bacon, and I used to love bacon. 
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: We got rid of everything and changed our lives in 24 hours. From then on, we have had so many of our friends watch that film, and for us it was just logical.”
 
Dame Dash: A plate of food and a just a little bit of animal feces is on it, then I’m not going to touch that food. Or, like, if a rat runs over it, in the food industry there is a certain amount of tolerance for rat hair and tolerance for fecal matter in the food. I just can’t do it
 
Allison Kugel: Damon, you are a Type 1 diabetic as is my father, and that is genetic. But many people are living with Type 2 Diabetes or are what is called “pre-diabetic” due to poor lifestyle choices. What I found interesting in What the Health was when Doctor Neil Barnard said that Type 2 Diabetes is actually created when there is so much fat being stored in our cells that the sugar (glucose) which is our body’s primary source of fuel, can’t find its way into the cells, so the sugar builds up in the blood and that is Type 2 Diabetes.
 
Listen to the full podcast interview
 
Dame Dash: And what happens is your pancreas produces a certain amount of insulin to bring that sugar down, so if you have too much of it, then your pancreas is not producing enough insulin to cover all those simple carbs in your body and break that down. That is from eating meat and dairy.
 
Allison Kugel: When I spoke with you a few years back about your film, Honor Up, you spoke about losing your mother when you were fifteen.  Did she pass away due to chronic health issues?
 
Dame Dash: Yes, from asthma.
 
Allison Kugel: When you look back on that now, do you think diet or lifestyle and environment may have played a role in her condition?
 
Dame Dash: I don’t know, because she was actually pretty healthy. My mom went through different phases with her health, but she always had asthma and a lot of that is hereditary. That is why I have [Type 1] Diabetes. My mom was always conscience of our food, but I did eat some bullshit with her. I do think, along with the anxiety and stress of being a Black woman and alone may have added to it. But I remember her saying to me, “Don’t ever let yourself say you have it, or that it is yours (regarding inheriting his mother’s asthma). It’s not yours.” And I was too much of an athletic guy to be wheezing. 
 
Allison Kugel: How did you get involved with this new film, They’re Trying to Kill Us (produced and directed by Keegan Kuhn, who also worked on What the Health)?
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: One of our friends is good friends with Bad Ass Vegan [John Lewis].
 
Dame Dash: A friend of a friend, John Salley, knew them.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: We had a friend who is really good friends with Bad Ass Vegan, and made the interview happen with Damon. From there, we actually got to interview both of them for my show, Health Is Wealth. So we flipped the cameras on them.
 
Allison Kugel: Damon, what are your thoughts on some of the conclusions drawn in the film, They’re Trying to Kill Us, regarding slavery and how a lot of foods and lifestyle choices that Black Americans consider to be part of their culture, are actually detrimental to their health and throwbacks to slavery? What are your thoughts on that?
 
Dame Dash: I think it is strategic. It’s brilliant that the enemy used that as warfare, and how long it has affected us. Now that we are aware of it, we should just break the program. [Corporations and politicians] know how to keep us in a place of distress and keep us unhealthy and arguing with each other and struggling. Keep us hating each other. They know how to keep making us eat to escape the life we hate. Look at what many of us eat while we come out of church, while we are worshiping their God, in the name Jesus, which is a European interpretation of the name Joshua (or Yeshua). So they give us this food to eat after they have given us that religion, and that is the reason most people are depressed. Unless we are happy with being unhappy, why would we not change it? The only way to change something is to do it different, and you have to make a change to be a change. So, what is the change going to be? If you want your circumstances different, you have to do it different. Are you going to eat different?  Think different? Love different? Are you going to love yourself different? It has to be different to have a different outcome.

Allison Kugel: The film also talks about urban areas devoid of healthy grocery stores, called “food deserts.” Neighborhoods filled with bodegas, liquor stores, fast food, but no healthy options. Was that your experience growing up?
 
Dame Dash: There was always a grocery store. But that little quick fix was also always readily available. 
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: You mainly ate at the bodegas.
 
Dame Dash: Yes, I ate at the bodegas. That is my point and what I’m saying. I would go to the bodegas instead of going to the grocery store, because instead of spending ten dollars, I would spend one dollar. I would end up buying fast food or potato chips and buying what I could get for that dollar.  It was those short fixes and it was unhealthy, but would get you through the day. That is still every day, all day, for a lot of people’s whole life.

​LISTEN TO THIS PODCAST EPISODE
 
Allison Kugel: Tell me if you guys agree with this, because I’ve been eating a lot more plant based foods lately, and I find I am not as hungry, overall? You’re eating less calories, but you are eating more nutritionally dense food, and you’re not hungry as much. Is that true for you?
 
Dame Dash:  It depends. We are in the house a lot and we are next to a kitchen, so we snack a lot! But while I’m working, I also smoke weed all day, so I’m high.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: I do believe that the good food you eat makes your body feel better, and it also makes you feel energized. You have proper energy rather than empty calories from bad food.
 
Dame Dash: Good food and sex is important.
 
Allison Kugel: I agree (laugh), but food and sex don’t go together. You have to be on an empty stomach.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: Like, a full Thanksgiving belly is…
 
Allison Kugel: Right. Who wants to have sex on Thanksgiving? You can’t.
 
Dame Dash: But every other day, there has to be sex. We have sex in the morning now. It’s been a little challenging having a baby, only because he sleeps with us and he’s definitely monopolized the top part of her body, and he’s a hater.  He can sense me touching her. He doesn’t want another brother there. He says, “Mommy” all day. He’s the boss, so I do have a boss now. He’s my little CEO, and he’s better dressed than me. The whole house is him. I have to sing to him. We make songs together.  He plays the piano and the guitar.  He’s about to have a guitar lesson.  He’s stuck on The Beatles and he is very musical because I turned him into a rock star. And he’s pretty much been eating plant based too.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: I wrote a book for him, that just came out, called, Dusko Goes to Space.
 
Allison Kugel:  Oh, that is so cute.
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn:  Yeah, it’s about him and his best friend, Governor, traveling, and they are about two. His whole [nursery] is space themed, like his book, with all of the planets.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you want Dusko to go into the music industry?
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn: I don’t mind it. Whatever he wants to do, I just want him to be creative. 
 
Allison:  Are you and Dame going to get married?
 
Raquel “Rocky” Horn:  At some point, after Covid ends. I want to show you the engagement ring I gave Damon. I gave Damon an engagement ring. I had been wanting to give him that.  Damon’s birthstone is emerald, and I love emeralds.  I’ve always loved emeralds since I was a little kid, so it was a really special thing. I thought, “Why do girls always get the engagement ring?  So I got him one, too.
 
Allison Kugel: Dame, what did you think of Rocky giving you an engagement ring?
 
Dame Dash:  I loved it. It was beautiful.
 
Allison Kugel: That didn’t throw you off?
 
Dame Dash: We’re pretty strategic about what we do, so it was just the timing of it all. She had already accepted my engagement. We’ve asked each other to marry each other so many times and my tax problems were in the way, so we are almost there. We have a baby, and we are so in love that we don’t even know when or what, but it just goes without saying.  It just represents how fly our relationship is. 
Allison Kugel:  Weird question: Do you consider weed part of a healthy lifestyle?
 
Dame Dash: I think it’s different strokes for different folks.  I’m a stoner. I really believe weed is healthy, cannabis. I’m part Anunnaki, and I know the Anunnaki’s brought weed to this planet.
 
Allison Kugel: Can you function and think clearly when you are not smoking?
 
Dame Dash: Yes, but I have more patience when I’m smoking. I’m easily triggered, because I think the rest of the world is dumb. They’re slow, and I just don’t have time for it. Not many people are cut from the same cloth as me. I can’t judge people, because they are not as evolved. I just have to stay away from them.
 
Allison Kugel: Would you say you are outside the “matrix?”
 
Dame Dash: I think I’m more aware.  I don’t know why, but I’ve had a heightened level of awareness of self-worth since the day I was born. I know I come from a royal lineage, and I just know I’m meant to be a king and treated like one, and a real king fights for his love. What comes with being a king is not just reaping the fruits, it’s fighting for it. 
 
Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts on what happened with the Astroworld Music Festival tragedy? Do you think that would have happened in the music business of twenty years ago?
 
Dame Dash: It did happen twenty years ago. It happened with Puff at the CCNY Charity  basketball game put on by Puff and Heavy D in 1991, and I was there. Seven people died, they got smothered. I saw that happen. I actually lost friends in situations like that. I don’t know the homeboy (Travis Scott), and I can’t blame anybody because I don’t know enough about it, but those things have happened, yes, and I’ve been a part of those kinds of tragedies. I’ve seen what it looks like to see people get smothered in the confusion and the chaos that comes with it. I actually know what it feels like to be in that situation, but I was up in the stands, so I got in early, but they all got stuck in the staircase and shit. I lost my friend. Her name was Dawn and she died at that basketball game. Life is so unpredictable, how something that is supposed to be a dream turns into a nightmare. That is why you have to be conscience of things. I would not have had children there. I would not have brought my kids to that festival, that is one thing I would not have done. When I hear about children being there, I think, “Why was a nine-year-old there in the first place?”
 
Allison Kugel: I know, but I feel so terrible to put shame on a parent that is already grieving the loss of a child. You know what I mean?
 
Dame Dash: I’m not putting shame. No shame. Nothing but compassion, but at the end of the day, please don’t take your children, during Covid, to a concert where there are a bunch of adults you know who are going to be getting high. That doesn’t make logical sense. I feel sorry for every single person that had to experience that. What happened thirty years ago still sticks with me. Whether I got affected or not, I got affected. I lost people and I saw people lose their lives.
 
Allison Kugel: Would you say you had PTSD from your experience? 
 
Dame Dash: I still have it. I have it from a lot of things. That is why I talk to a therapist and I have a show on my network called Healing is Gangsta. I have had a lot of trauma that I had to deal with. Being from this culture is traumatizing. Being a woman and in this culture must be doubly traumatizing.  People think it’s normal, and it’s not. You can’t let your normal be unhappy or being uncomfortable. For me, if I’m bothered, I want answers right now.  I’m not internalizing anything, because it causes cancer.  If we have stress that we are internalizing it is going to make us sick inside. I couldn’t imagine not having enough courage to speak exactly what I’m feeling honestly, every time I feel it. If I had to hold everything in that I’m feeling, I would be miserable. That is the reason I’m so happy, because there is nothing but honest words coming out of my mouth.
 
Watch the full interview [please place youtube code here]
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Listen to the extended interview with Damon Dash on the Allison Interviews Podcast at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and watch on YouTube. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at allisoninterviews.com.
 
Watch the groundbreaking documentary film, They’re Trying to Kill Us, featuring interview commentary by Damon Dash about communities of color and health. Tune in to Dame Dash Studios content streaming on Fox Soul every Saturday at 7pm ET/4pm PT. Follow on Instagram @duskopoppington and @raquelmhorn.

​By Allison Kugel

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Jodie Sweetin enters the room with a take me as I am confidence that makes no apologies. She seems rooted in something profound after a past filled with the rigors of child stardom, substance abuse and mental health struggles. It’s taken her nearly four decades of life to arrive at this place of strength, clarity, and insight. The girl has definitely earned the life she gets to live now with a thriving career, two well-adjusted daughters, and a loving relationship. For Jodie, who says she shuns plastic surgery and gobs of glam, the glow up has definitely been internal, yet you can see it on her youthful face that hasn’t changed much over the years.
 
The 39 year old mother of two began her career as one of the young darlings of 1980s and ‘90s prime time television; her blonde ringlets and exaggerated on-cue facial expressions helped propel Full House into the stratosphere of iconic sitcoms that continues to play around the globe in syndication. Fans reveled in Sweetin’s adult portrayal of Stephanie Tanner in the Netflix reboot, Fuller House, which ran for five seasons from 2016 – 2020. What made Fuller House magical for audiences, Jodie says, is that “the Netflix show brought generations together. Kids who grew up watching Full House could share the show with their kids.”
 
Now, the entrepreneur, actress, producer and author has ventured into the digital space with the launch of Never Thought I’d Say This, the popular podcast she co-hosts with Life Coach and best friend, Celia Behar. The two women tackle all things motherhood, sprinkled with celebrity interviews and a lot of candid humor.
 
Allison Kugel: What are the three most pivotal events in your life that have shaped the person you are today?
 
Jodie Sweetin: It would be when I was adopted at 14 months old. That completely changed the trajectory of my life. Being cast on Full House at five, and then having my first daughter at 26. Those three things changed everything about my life.
 
Allison Kugel: Are your birth parents alive?  Have you ever connected with them?
 
Jodie Sweetin: No, I’ve never connected with them, and as far as I know they are not alive.  I’m totally okay with that. It’s one of those things I think a lot of adoptees feel. There comes a point  in your life where you finally realize what happened, and it no longer becomes something about you like, “I wasn’t wanted.” You realize, “No, they actually made the healthiest decision for me by allowing me to be adopted by another family that could provide better.”  I look at it now very differently than I did when I was young, which was in a very self-torturous way. I felt like something was wrong with me. I think we all take that on a little bit, but this shift in my thinking completely changed how I view myself.
 
Allison Kugel: You were five years old when you got cast on Full House. Were you ever an introverted and shy kid, or were you always bubbly and outgoing?
 
Jodie Sweetin: I was always bubbly and outgoing.  My mom used to say when I was two years old that she would worry I would just walk home with a stranger in a supermarket, because everyone was my friend. I would just say, “Hi! I’m Jodie.” I’m still sort of like that, but I haven’t gone home from the grocery store with a stranger (laugh). I loved performing, I loved dance, and I started dancing when I was three years old doing tap and ballet. My very first dance recital, I was in the second row, and apparently I thought the girls in front of me in our little cabbage patch outfits were not doing as well as they needed to. I wormed my way up to the front row, pushed them out of the way, and thought, “Here’s how it’s done.”  
 
Allison Kugel: So when you went to the Full House audition you must have been like, “I got this!”
 
Jodie Sweetin: I actually never auditioned for the show. I did a guest appearance on a show called Valerie with Valerie Harper and Jason Bateman. I played the next-door neighbor’s niece.  I did one episode of that show and it was for the same producers and same company that were creating Full House at the time. They saw me and said, “That’s Stephanie,” and cast me on Full House. I always say, I wound up exactly where I was supposed to be. Of course, everything in my life changed after that.
 
Allison Kugel: When all the kids were on the set, what was the interaction like between all the kids on the show and John Stamos, Dave Coulier and Bob Saget?
 
Jodie Sweetin: We were like family from the beginning. The guys on the show always took care of us.  It was a very familial vibe from the beginning.   It was never a show where the kids and the adults didn’t really have anything to do with each other, and that happens a lot on shows.  That didn’t happen on Full House, nor did it happen on Fuller House. That was just not the vibe of our show. The kids were always included in family BBQs, get-togethers and doing stuff outside of work. They always looked out for us from the time we started, when I was five.   Candace and Andrea where ten. Ashley and Mary Kate were just nine months old at the beginning of Full House. They were like our uncles. I was very close with Bob and his three daughters, Dave and his son, and John with his now wife and baby. I love and adore all of them, still to this day. I had a really fortunate childhood in this business. I know not a lot do, but I never had a negative experience on set with the people I worked with.  
 
Allison Kugel: For Fuller House, did you return to the same exact set or was it rebuilt?
 
Jodie Sweetin: They tear those things down after a show is done. It all goes back to the set department. The funny thing was, I think the year before we went back into production on Fuller House, they had gotten rid of the floor plans at Warner Brothers for the Full House house. They thought after 20 or 25 years they didn’t need it anymore, and they cleared out everything. When they went to go build the Fuller House sets, the art department and our set design department actually had to go back and watch old episodes of the original Full House and design it from that, because they didn’t have the blueprints anymore.  
 
Allison Kugel: Have you been to the actual exterior house in San Francisco? 
 
Jodie Sweetin: I’ve been inside that actual house in San Francisco. [Full House and Fuller House Creator] Jeff Franklin had actually bought it at one point, and we all put our hands in cement in the backyard. The neighbors do not love that.  Previous owners had painted the house so it looked nothing like the Full House house you saw on the show, because there would be up to 1,000 people at a time driving by the house on city tours.
 
Allison Kugel: As you were growing up and going through adolescence, did you ever have a crush on one of the guys on the show?
 
Jodie Sweetin: No, they were like family. People always asked, “Oh my God, wasn’t John Stamos so cute?” I’ve known John since I was five.  I’ve seen him roll into work in old t-shirts and sweatpants with holes in them, and not looking all that cute. He was always just John to me.   I know him too well to think he’s hot. He’s a big dork and I love him. You get to know people so well that you’re like, “Oh my God! No, no, no,” when it comes to that stuff.  I know he is good looking, but I’ve seen things, and that would be like having a weird crush on your uncle.
 
Allison Kugel: Noted (laughs). When you are out and about, do you fly under the radar or are you easily recognized? 
 
Jodie Sweetin: I’m pretty easily recognizable, just because, thank God, I haven’t changed that much in my appearance. I’m going to be 40 in January, and thankfully, I would like to say I have aged fairly well, so people definitely recognize me. When Fuller House made its debut, people definitely started recognizing me much more again because they came to know me as an adult version of Stephanie. Also, with the Hallmark movies and just getting back to work as an adult, I definitely get recognized a lot more, but not to the point where I can’t go to the grocery store. Gosh, I can’t even imagine. I know there are a lot of people that are super, super famous like that, and to me that sounds really overwhelming.
 
Allison Kugel: You know what is so tragic about that?  I love going to the grocery store. Whole Foods is like Disneyland to me (laugh).
 
Jodie Sweetin: There is a sense of normalcy that comes with doing those sorts of things, and I think sometimes it’s hard when you lose that. I know as a kid it was hard for me to go to a mall. It was hard for me to go certain places as a kid, like Disneyland. I couldn’t do it without a guide, or without whatever, because as a kid the show was everywhere. It was ABC primetime Friday night. Everybody had appointment television and you watched everything, so it was definitely different as a kid. I got recognized a lot more.
 
Allison Kugel: What is that like as a kid?
 
Jodie Sweetin: It was weird to me, only because I didn’t watch the show. I wasn’t super impressed with being on TV, not that I was ungrateful for it. I just thought, “I don’t know what the big deal is. I just have a job and other people watch it.” I thought it was normal.  It was what I’d always known. Then realizing the extent to which the show grew… even as an adult, we went over to Japan and the show is huge in Japan, to the point where we got off the plane and there were 300 people at the airport in Tokyo waiting for us. It was like being The Beatles. Or you get into a cab in Japan and there is Full House dubbed in Japanese playing on the little screen. That stuff is crazy, and as a kid you’re kind of not as aware of the world around you anyway. It wasn’t like I was looking at magazines with myself in them. I knew that they were out there, but I didn’t realize just how popular it was until it became impossible to go to places like Disneyland, Disney World, the mall, or things like that as a kid. You say to yourself, “Oh well, that’s weird. I guess I can’t really blend in like that anymore.” 

Allison Kugel: When you see famous kids now in the tabloids or posted on social media, do you ever think, “Oh, I remember that. I know what’s going through that kid’s head?” Whether it’s the Kardashian/Jenner kids or whoever?
 
Jodie Sweetin: For kids like that who are born into notoriety, into a famous family with famous parents, I started working when I was three, so it’s just always been what I know. I think there is almost more of a shock when it happens to you a little later in life, when you’ve spent your entire life being normal, and now you’re like, “What the hell is this?” When you grow up with it, it’s just par for the course. I was attacked as a kid in the tabloids. I can’t stand tabloid magazines or even social media these days. I think anyone who goes after these kids, whether it’s how they dress on the red carpet, or how someone is parenting them when they are out in public, leave them alone. It’s really bothersome. It’s a celebrity’s kid and that just happens to be their parents. They didn’t ask to be given all this attention. Back off or respect when the parents say, “Please don’t photograph my kid. Don’t put pictures of them in magazines.” People should respect that.  
 
Allison Kugel: I don’t think people make the connection, like how would they feel if it was their kid?
 
Jodie Sweetin: I think with social media as it is now, it’s the same thing. Everyone wants to see the worst, or the over-inflated best. Look, there are plenty of times I’ve had to yell at my kids in the grocery store. I know someone is recognizing me or is watching me, and I’m thinking, “Look, my kids are being bad and Stephanie Tanner had to yell at her kids in the grocery store. I’m sorry.”
 
Allison Kugel: (Laugh) Speaking of kids. I listened to your podcast, Never Thought I’d Say This, and you cover a lot of funny mom moments and stories.
 
Jodie Sweetin: Yes. We talk about parenting, motherhood, and single motherhood, in particular.   My best friend and co-host, Celia Behar, and I both have boyfriends now, but we had been single moms for a while, and we dive into the adventures of parenting that nobody tells you about that are sometimes pretty awful. Also, we are very honest in our own parenting fails. We are not the Instagram, Pinterest, lunchbox making parents. We are the ones that are screaming as we are all running out the door, or somebody is late, or someone forgot something. We have a lot of fun with it. I’m really proud of what we do with our podcast.
 
Allison Kugel: And how did the podcast come about? Did you just say to her, “Will you host this podcast with me?”
 
Jodie Sweetin: Celia and I were tossing around the idea because we would be telling these parenting stories and it would be like, “Oh my God, I never thought I would have to say this to another human being.” There is so much about parenting no one ever tells you, like the weird things you have to teach little humans. You say to yourself, “Oh, that’s right, they don’t come pre-programmed.  I have to do all this stuff like potty training, teaching manners, and that you can’t just whip it out in the grocery store because you have to pee.” You don’t think about having to train a human being.
 
Allison Kugel: What is the best lesson that you have learned from your kids? Something they have taught you?
 
Jodie Sweetin: I watch my kids all the time and my girls have good boundaries; they stand up for themselves and speak their minds. Particularly my older one, she has always been that kid that would say, “I don’t like that.” Not necessarily in a bratty way, but like, “Nope, I’m not doing this.” I didn’t get those skills until I was in my 30s.  I’ve watched my girls demonstrate that and I’d like to think it’s because they see how I am in my life now. They are still middle school girls so it’s all up in the air, but for the most part they have a very good sense of self. I learn that from them all the time. They express themselves in their clothes, in their room, whatever it is, and I admire them for that because I think as a kid and well into my twenties, and probably early thirties, I cared way too much what people thought of me. I know there are elements of peer pressure for them we well, but I’m just so proud of how they stand up for themselves and say, “This is who I am, and this is what I like.”
 
Allison Kugel: I feel like girls today don’t suffer from the disease of politeness that our generation did.
 
Jodie Sweetin: Our generation learned from our mom’s generation. Again, it was very much like, “Girls don’t say that.  Girls are polite.” Not until my mid to late thirties did I say, “Wait, I get to have boundaries? I get to say what I don’t like? I don’t have to hang out with people I don’t want to or go on a date with somebody because I don’t want to make them feel bad? I don’t have to be nice to somebody who says something horrible to me?  I don’t have to do any of that?  Oh wow, what a gift.” My daughters have very firm boundaries, and they are so wonderfully expressive in who they are. I give them the freedom to be that.
 
Allison Kugel: Before your current relationship, how did you navigate dating as a single mom? Did you separate church and state like nobody meets my kids and all of that?
 
Jodie Sweetin: I didn’t do that as much, but I’ve learned over the years how to do it better. I’m a single mom but their dads are in their lives, so it wasn’t like I had them all the time.
 
Allison Kugel: Let me correct that, we’re not single moms, but moms who happen to be single and dating. I don’t want to take that distinction away from single moms doing it all.
 
Jodie Sweetin: Right, a mom who is single. I think as my girls have gotten older, and my boyfriend and I have been together for four years now, and he really did an amazing job with it all. At first, we had a long-distance relationship too.  He was in Brooklyn, and I was here in LA for 3 ½ years, and so it was slow and it was nice. He was very good at letting them warm up to him and not having to force a relationship. I think that is the hard thing as a mom. You’re thinking, “Everyone just get along. I really like this person.” I’m not sacrificing my kids, but how do I make everybody happy. At the end of the day, you’ll put up with your own kids’ nonsense. I can tune my kids out. The other day I was watching this show and one of them had the music super loud and my boyfriend said, “I can’t. I can’t. It’s too much.” I said, “Yeah, you’re right. It is really obnoxiously loud.” It was shaking the walls, so I thought “Yeah you’ve got to say something.”
 
Allison Kugel: When was the first time your girls realized you were a public person? 
 
Jodie Sweetin: My kids have always known it.  Even when they were little, their birth announcements were out there in public. Just the fact that they were born, they can Google themselves, where most kids can’t really do that. They always knew mommy is a famous person.  If anything, they are so unimpressed by it and really just feel like, “Uh, mom you’re not cool.”   I’ll reply, “Oh, I know I’m not. It’s okay.”  I luckily have grown old enough that I don’t need to be cool anymore. That pressure is lifted. But they love supporting me.  They love watching me shoot something, but they love it more for the craft services. They don’t really care about what I’m actually shooting (laugh). They love the perks, and they are super grateful for the fun stuff we get to do because of it. I think sometimes it is hard for them because their friends say, “Oh My God, that’s your mom?” They’ll say, “She’s still a mom.”
 
Allison Kugel: If you could travel back in time to any famous historical event and change the course of that event, where would you go and what would you attempt to change?
 
Jodie Sweetin: I feel like last year gave me so much material, just 2020 alone. Can we just skip 2020?  I feel like the pain, the loss, and the death was awful. Also, the impact that it has had on our kids. On our families.  On our politics.  On everything.  I think it has brought some things to the surface that needed to be, but I also think it has forever altered the course of our lives in a very complicated way. Nobody in our immediate family got Covid, but I can only imagine if as semi smooth sailing as it was for us, I can’t imagine what other people went through and I think that sort of collective trauma and pain has really affected us, and I think will really affect people’s mental health in ways that we haven’t seen yet.  Mental health is a hugely important thing to me. I’m a big advocate for talking about it, destigmatizing it and so I think that is my concern right now.  I know I was a mess during the pandemic. I was not a fully functioning person. It was awful.
 
Allison Kugel: I don’t know if I was a mess, but I got fatter (laugh).
 
Jodie Sweetin: (Laughs) I lost almost 37 pounds, because I’m a stress starver.
 
Allison Kugel: Are you serious?
 
Jodie Sweetin: But not in a good way. I just stopped eating.  I couldn’t keep food down. I’ll be really honest about it; the pandemic was not good for me. I have severe anxiety and depression anyway, so it really didn’t do any favors for my mental health. I really struggled with it and for me it was a time of feeling really out of control and again I can’t imagine how it affected people who were working on the front lines. 
 
Allison Kugel: I also suffer from anxiety and there is a history of alcoholism in my family. Back in the day, mental health was not something that was discussed and so I think the reason grandfather was an alcoholic is because he also had anxiety. Do you think at one point you self-medicated because of your anxiety and depression?
 
Jodie Sweetin: Yes, absolutely. I think that was a big part of it, was how do I deal with these feelings?  How do I manage my own head that is just loud and negative and awful to me sometimes, but nobody else can hear it?  You’re stuck in it. The thing about anxiety is, people think of panic attacks, but there can be a raging, screaming voice in your head all the time that you just can’t get quiet. You just don’t want to listen to this voice, and especially when mental health wasn’t talked about, it was worse. Having that wiring in your brain that something switches on when you’re an alcoholic and it feels like there is never enough. I can’t ever fill this hole because there is a bottom missing in the cup, and I just keep trying to fill it.  I think that is something I’m really grateful for now, is the de-stigmatization of talking about mental health.
 
Allison Kugel: When did you get to the point when you realized you had to develop actual skills to heal yourself rather than numbing yourself?
 
Jodie Sweetin: That was my whole journey through sobriety.  A lot of it is really looking at yourself, and what are the things that I do or behaviors that I’m trying to use to cope with my life? And how do I do this better?  How do I interact with people better?  How do I hold myself to a higher standard? How do I go back and make some of those things right so that I can alleviate that shame and terror that comes with all of it?  Then, how do I go about life not creating those situations for myself in the future?  That is a huge part of it.  I’m always very honest that, for me, medication has been key. Otherwise, my struggle was so bad I wasn’t getting out of bed. Now that I know when I need to speak up for myself, even into my thirties, my early thirties feeling like I needed some therapy and I probably need a psychiatrist for some meds; all of these things to start taking better care of myself.
 
Allison Kugel: Do you pray, and if so, who or what do you pray to?
 
Jodie Sweetin: I don’t. I’m more of a meditative, still, and present sort of person. I’m not necessarily religious. For me, I find that higher power or something greater than myself when I’m at live music and everyone is enjoying themselves. The musicians are in so much joy playing something.  Or when I’ve been out at a protest and I see thousands and thousands of people coming together to do something right, helping each other and taking care of each other. That, for me, are the moments when I see something greater than us and when we rise above our own selfish wants and needs to connect at a higher level. 
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life as Jodie Sweetin to learn, and what do you think you came into this life to teach?
 
Jodie Sweetin: Oh man. That is a great question. I think I came into this life to learn to genuinely be myself and to learn how to be kind to myself. I think once you learn how to do something, then you are able to teach it.  I had this really long journey of figuring out some things about my own voice and my own strength, what it was I was passionate about and how to use that voice.  Now I feel I have that opportunity to share that voice with others. Whether it’s the voice of going through addiction, of being a mom and feeling overwhelmed, of being an actress and what that represents to certain people, and working in social justice areas. I get to use that voice I’ve found to be an example to others, particularly for young woman of all kinds, to really stand in their truth and in their power, and to love yourself unconditionally no matter what your body looks like. For me, it’s very important that I post stuff on Instagram that is not filtered or with a bunch of makeup, because I genuinely like me. My message is, “Just be you. You are amazing and you get one body that is going to carry you through this life. Celebrate it, whatever it is capable of doing.” 
 
Listen to the extended interview with Jodie Sweetin on the Allison Interviews Podcast at Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Allison Kugel on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at allisoninterviews.com.
 
Tune in to the Never Thought I’d Say This podcast with Jodie Sweetin and Life Coach Celia Behar on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Follow on Instagram @neverthoughtidsaythis and @jodiesweetin.

By Allison Kugel

Music Executive, artist manager, entrepreneur, activist, lecturer, author and cancer survivor, Mathew Knowles brought the world Destiny’s Child and international mega star Beyonce. His efforts have resulted in more than 450 million albums sold, worldwide. Now he is on a mission to help more Americans in underserved communities get vaccinated against Covid-19 with the National Minority Health Association’s Flex For Checks program, which can be learned about at thenmha.org and flexforchecks.com.

In this interview with Allison Interviews podcast host Allison Kugel, Mathew Knowles discusses the real story behind getting Destiny’s Child, Beyonce and Solange their first record deals, witnessing racism within major record labels in the late ‘90s, experiencing early desegregation in the deep south, and how one decision could have meant the world would have never known Beyonce. 

Allison Kugel: What is the National Minority Health Association, and how did you get involved with their Flex for Checks initiative?
 
Mathew Knowles: The National Minority Health Association is working with brown and Black communities on various health initiatives. For example, when we look at Black men and we look at the percentage of Black men in America, we lead in mortalities in every category, Allison, except for breast cancer and suicide. Black women lead in mortality rates for breast cancer. Why is that? Because of a lack of awareness in our communities. It’s about lack of early detection. The National Minority Health Association’s specific program, Flex For Checks, is about increasing awareness about getting vaccinated [against COVID-19]. You register, you get a shot, and once you’ve proven that you’ve gotten the vaccination, you then receive $50.
 
Allison Kugel: That is once you’ve gotten your complete vaccination, meaning two shots, with the exception of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which is a single shot?
 
Mathew Knowles: Every time you get a shot, regardless of if it’s one, two, or the booster, you will receive $50.
 
Allison Kugel: At this point in time, you can pretty much walk into any CVS, Walgreens, Rite Aid, any clinic or vaccination site, and get your COVID-19 vaccine. You don’t have to pay for the vaccine, it’s free for all Americans, and readily available. So, when you say “lack of access” or “underserved communities,” is it more about getting people the correct information regarding the vaccine?
 
Mathew Knowles: It’s both. We are almost there with 70% of the U.S. [vaccinated], but there is still that 30% [that is not vaccinated]. So, what do we have to do to convince and incentivize that 30%, of which there is a high minority rate? We are giving a financial incentive. I know it sounds sort of absurd that I have to give you a financial incentive to save your life, but if that is what it takes, then that is what the National Minority Health Association is willing to do, with a grant they have received. It’s to incentivize people to go and get vaccinated.
 
Allison Kugel: Is there, in your opinion, a skepticism of government and a skepticism of the medical establishment, among many people of color?
 
Mathew Knowles: There is, and I happen to have this sheet that I pulled up which talks about the myths. One of the myths is, “the vaccine hasn’t been tested on people like me,” meaning people of color. The truth is the clinical trials for all three vaccines have taken all kinds of diversity into consideration. Pfizer: 30% people of color. Moderna: 37%. Johnson & Johnson: 35%.  So that myth is busted. And there is a myth about the side effects of getting the COVID-19 vaccine. The truth is, while there are some mild side effects, and I got the Moderna vaccine as well as the booster, and did have soreness in my arm for two days, but the risk/reward of me having a sore arm versus having a ventilator down my throat. Let me weigh that out. 
 
Allison Kugel: I think some aspect of vaccine hesitancy is, simply, fear of the unknown. People might be thinking, “What kind of side effects will I get?” 
 
Mathew Knowles: I have a cup of tea in front of me right now. I’m going to drink it. I have no idea what all of the ingredients are in this tea. I have no idea if this cup will give me any side effects. That is true for so much of the food we eat, medications we take, and so forth. We have to put this into the proper perspective. We never really truly know every ingredient we put into our bodies. But we have to have trust in the science and in the research. I haven’t heard anybody say what I’m about to say, but I think a lot of people haven’t gotten the vaccine because of a fear of needles. There are a lot of people that are traumatized by a needle, and nobody is talking about that.
 
Allison Kugel: You might be right. It’s a common phobia. I actually made the woman who gave me the vaccine hold my hand, because I was such a baby (laugh).
 
Mathew Knowles: Well, I mean, it’s normal, but no one is really saying that. I really truly believe that a lot of this is just a phobia of getting a needle in the arm.  
 
Allison Kugel: Which, by the way, you really don’t even feel. It’s just two seconds. You blink and it’s over.  
 
Mathew Knowles: I didn’t even know. The doctor was talking to me and the next thing I knew I’m asking, “When are you going to give me the shot?” He said, “I already did.” I said, “Wait, what (laugh)?!”
 
Allison Kugel: Sadly, we just recently lost Colin Powell to complications from COVID-19. Something came out in the news that was confusing to many people. His loved ones stated the following, “We want people to know that he was completely vaccinated.”  That statement then gave rise to more skepticism of, “See? He was vaccinated and he died from COVID complications.” But it is important to note that he had been battling a cancer of the blood, which significantly compromised his immune system, and it also made the vaccine less effective.
 
Mathew Knowles: People will use that as a reason not to get [the vaccine]. However, this is based on the information in the last 24 hours that I have listened to and read: he had a compromised immune system and [allegedly] he had not gotten the booster shot yet, is what I also read. Again, this is not necessarily all accurate, I’m just citing what I’ve read and heard. I have a compromised immune system, and I understand that getting a COVID shot doesn’t necessarily 100% mean that I’m not going to get COVID. What it’s supposed to do is not have me in the hospital with a ventilator down my throat, hopefully. For that reason, I was one of the first to get it, and I think it’s very unfortunate, but we have to understand there were other underlying conditions.  
 
Allison Kugel: How do people get the financial compensation after they have gotten vaccinated?  How does the process work?
 
Mathew Knowles: You can register for the program by calling 877-770-NMHA, or you can go to flexforchecks.com. Registering is the first step. Then you get the shot at one of the many locations in your community, and we identify those for you. You then upload proof of your vaccination to your Flex For Checks profile. Once you upload your proof of vaccination, we will automatically mail you a check. It’s that easy. 
 
Allison Kugel: Perfect. I’d like to go into some of your personal history. You grew up in Alabama in the 1950s and 1960s. I would imagine you lived through your fair share of racial discrimination. What was your first-hand experience? 
 
Mathew Knowles: I’ve written five books, and one of those is Racism from the Eyes of a Child. My mother went to high school in a small town in Alabama, with Coretta Scott King. Also in that class was Andrew Young’s wife. My mother then moved to a larger town in Alabama, and she took up the torch of desegregation. Imagine, I was born in 1952, so from 1958 to 1972 I went to all white schools. Think about that.
 
Allison Kugel: All white schools, meaning you were in the significant minority…
 
Mathew Knowles: In my junior high school, there were 6 Blacks and 1,000 Whites. In my high school, there were maybe 20 Blacks and 3,000 whites. The University of Tennessee at Chattanooga had 14,000 whites and maybe 50 Blacks. Then I transferred to an HBCU, Fisk University in Nashville, which was my first experience in a Black educational environment. I was one of the first [students] with desegregation. I had been beaten, I’ve been electrically prodded, I’ve been spit on, I’ve been humiliated, all sorts of trauma. I had to go to years of therapy to overcome it, no different than for a woman who has been sexually assaulted. Racial trauma is the same. It just doesn’t get the attention that it should. It’s unfortunate that a woman can speak of being sexually traumatized 30 or 40 years ago, but you can’t be Black and say that. Nobody cares.  
 
Allison Kugel: Any recent stories regarding racial discrimination?
 
Mathew Knowles: I always love what Michelle Obama once said about President Obama. They asked her, “Are you frightened that your husband is going to get assassinated?” She said, “You know, my fear is that my husband could get shot by the police, pumping some gas.” The point she was making is that when you are Black there is no determination that says, “Hey, I’m the president,” you know? For example, with me, if you are in your neighborhood and you’re dressed normal, when you’re Black everyone doesn’t know who your daughter is, nor do they care. Just recently, I’m on a plane putting my bag up in first class. The flight attendant comes over and says, “I’m sorry, sir. You need to put your bags in the back, in coach.”  I said, “Do you say that to all of your passengers?” She says, “Yes, I say that to all of my coach passengers.” I said, “So you just assume I’m flying coach, huh?” Those types of things still happen today.

​Allison Kugel: How did you eventually make your way to Houston? And do you think the success that your daughters, Beyoncé and Solange, have had in the music industry, and the success you’ve had on the business side of the music industry, do you think that could have been possible had you stayed in Alabama? Or would there have been no ladder to climb up?
 
Mathew Knowles: It was more from my educational path, from getting a proper education. I was in Nashville, Tennessee and I chose Houston because of all the industry. At the time, you had affirmative action and you had quotas that these major oil companies and all the other companies that were successful because of the oil initiative in Houston, had to fulfill. So at that time in Houston, it was very easy being Black and getting a really good job. That is why I went to Houston, Texas from Nashville. I grew up in Gadsden, Alabama, where we had a Goodyear plant and we had a public steel plant, real blue collar. Chances are I would have ended up working at one of those types of facilities had I stayed in Gadsden. My parents had encouraged me and my vision was much broader than that, so I wanted to go and get the academic knowledge, and then I got 20 years of corporate experience.
 
Allison Kugel: You’re working in Corporate America for Xerox. What gave you the power of belief to make the leap from a stable corporate job to pursuing the music industry, with Destiny’s Child and Beyoncé, and then for Solange? Was it blind faith?
 
Mathew Knowles: I call that the “Jedi Mind Trick,” Allison. Unfortunately, that is the story that the media has painted and it’s not accurate. It’s not even close to being accurate. I worked at Xerox Corporation for ten years. Eight of those years I worked at Xerox Medical Systems. We sold diagnostic imaging for breast cancer detection. Because of my success, being the number one sales rep worldwide for three years in that division, I was able to then go with Phillips Medical Systems to sell CT and MRI scanners. After 6 years of having success, I had headhunters calling and I went to Johnson & Johnson as a neurosurgical specialist. Then because of managed care, I was told by a neurosurgeon that he couldn’t use my instruments because of the cost associated with them. It was a defining moment and I had to decide what career path I wanted. As a kid I did things like deejay for my parents, I was in a boy band, and I had this passionate love of music. There was this young man in Houston who had asked me a couple of times to manage him. The first artist that I got a major record deal for was not Beyoncé. It was not Solange. It was a rapper named Lil’ O. MCA records was the number one urban record label at the time with Puffy, Mary J. Blige, and Jodeci, so you see how inaccurate that story is?
 
Allison Kugel: You got your foot in the door with MCA Records, managing rapper Lil’ O, prior to launching Destiny’s Child. We’re busting apart the myth right now. 
 
Mathew Knowles: Yes (laughs). I also went back to school, because I believe knowledge is power. For 15 years I’ve been a college educator, and so I went back to college and took three courses. I went to every seminar I could. I began to build every relationship that I could. You have to understand, skills are transferable. I was able to transfer my skill of being the top salesman in corporate America to the music industry.
 
Allison Kugel: That’s important. People may not realize that whatever their skillset is, that experience is transferable and can be used to pursue additional opportunities or careers.  
 
Mathew Knowles: If you talk to anyone that worked at Xerox or Phillips and knew me, they would say, “I’m not surprised he was successful in the music industry.”  Then, of course, I had this amazing talent to work with.  Let’s not leave that out of the equation (laugh).
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, you did. I don’t know if anyone has ever asked you this before, but did Destiny’s Child, Beyoncé, Solange, or you for that matter, ever experience any racism within the music industry? 
 
Mathew Knowles: Yes, absolutely. In the ‘90s, record labels had their urban division, or sometimes it was called the Black music division. There was segregation inside of these major record labels. Because I also managed white artists, I got to see all of the budgets. There was a great difference in a Black artist’s or “urban division’s” marketing budget from that of a white artist’s budget and the regular pop music division’s budget.
 
Allison Kugel: What is the best advice you have ever received?
 
Mathew Knowles: When you live your passion, you never work a day in your life. Find that thing that motivates and inspires you. Find what adds fuel to your excitement. That is the thing we should be working towards. Not what our parents want us to be, or what society wants us to be, or what our husbands or wives want us to be. It should be that thing inside of us that we are passionate about. Normally, that gives us success, not overnight success, but over time. If you follow your passion, every day you wake up you will be excited.
 
Allison Kugel: What do you think you came into this life to learn, and what do you think you came here to teach?
 
Mathew Knowles: It would be to educate and motivate people. I grew up poor, yet I never knew I was poor until I was in my mid 20s. My parents were such great parents that they never made me feel less fed than any other kid. I had wonderful parents that motivated me and supported me. I come from a family of entrepreneurs on both sides of my family, so I had that foundation. I have always wanted to educate and motivate people. That’s why I think I always did so well in sales and marketing, because I understood how to motivate and educate with knowledge. I love coming from a place of knowledge. I don’t shoot from the hip. My dad made $30 a day driving a produce truck and convinced the company he worked for to let him keep the truck. He would then go tear down old houses and he would sell all the copper and metals. He would buy old cars that were abandoned and sell all the parts. My mother was a maid and she made $3 a day. She convinced the white woman she worked for and the woman’s white girlfriends to give her all their hand-me-downs, and on the weekends, she would make these beautiful quilts with two of her own girlfriends. My parents made six to ten times more on their second jobs than they did on their day jobs, and so I watched that. I watched them being entrepreneurs and thinking outside the box.  
 
Allison Kugel: By the way, there is a strong connection between financial empowerment, a belief in one’s future, and the desire to look after one’s health, which I am sure you know.
 
Mathew Knowles: Health is number one. Without that, you actually become a liability to everyone. You can’t be the best family member, you can’t be the best friend, without having good health. I’m sitting here today speaking to you because I understood early diagnosis and early detection, and I was able to find my cancer early at stage 1A. Not everyone has that opportunity. This is about early detection, knowledge, and understanding of health. Believe in faith, but also believe in science. Put them together; not one by itself.
 
Allison Kugel: Aside from the Flex for Checks initiative, in what other ways is the National Minority Health Association reaching out to communities of color to help people look out for their own health?
 
Mathew Knowles: All of the things we are talking about today. They are less than a year old   and they have just gotten their funding, which takes a while to get. They are now ready and geared towards early detection and health information, especially in the Black and brown community. A lot of our challenges are just because we simply don’t know, and also the mental health that people don’t want to talk about, especially in the Black and brown community, and the effects of mental health, or the lack thereof, on our overall health.  
 
Allison Kugel: Do you think cultural competency among healthcare providers is an important ingredient when it comes to healthcare, whether it is mental health, early detection screenings, or getting the COVID-19 vaccine?
 
Mathew Knowles: I think that falls into the entire gamut of society. If we were able to see more doctors and more nurses that look like us, if we were able to see more police that look like us in our communities; I think we can even take that to corporations. Yes, absolutely. This is my second year going to Harvard for the summers. I took this summer [course], Cultural Intelligence. We just don’t want to talk about the differences in our cultures. Black people are culturally different than white people. That is not saying one is right or one is wrong. That simply says that the way I might approach a problem could be different than the way you approach a problem, based on my culture and my background. I just think we need to understand cultural intelligence, understand how we are different, and accept that rather than thinking that everybody has to be the same. Well, no, we don’t have to be the same. 
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk race versus socio-economic status, and healthcare. As a person moves up the economic ladder, do you think race is still a major factor in the healthcare someone receives?  
 
Mathew Knowles: There is a bill that is about to come in the next six months in the House of Representatives from a California Congressman that is going to address just that, race in the medical system. Quantitative research with doctors and with hospitals makes it very clear that race does matter in terms of those going into emergency rooms, and who gets to get the diagnostics like the CT scans, the MRIs, and the extra care. Race does matter.
 
Allison Kugel: Even as you move up the economic ladder?
 
Mathew Knowles: I think it’s certainly reduced as you go up the economic ladder, because what happens is, as you go up the economic ladder, normally, your new knowledge base also goes up.  As your knowledge base goes up, you begin to understand that this doctor who I looked up to as God, instead it’s the knowledge that you are going to see a physician and as a patient you have the right to say, “I want this procedure done,” or “I have the right to do that, because I’ve researched and I want you to perform that test or that procedure.” I think as you move up economically your knowledge progresses. 

By Allison Kugel
 
As a racecar driver, Danica Patrick broke barriers and set records with her on-track performance.
It wasn’t long before she joined the mainstream ranks by succeeding in the male-dominated world of professional motorsports. With stunning good looks and an unrelenting ambition to top her personal best in every race, Danica was named to TIME’s 100 Most Influential People list, while her figure graced the pages of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Making her mark in pop culture, Danica has appeared in a record-setting 14 Super Bowl commercials.
 
In 2005, Danica Patrick stunned the world by leading 19 laps and finishing fourth in her first Indianapolis 500. She became the first woman to lead laps and score a top-five finish in the historic race. In 2008, Danica made history again becoming the first woman to win a major-league open-wheel race in a North American series with her victory in the IndyCar Series Indy Japan 300 race. In 2013, as Danica transitioned to the NASCAR Cup Series, once again making headlines with her record-setting performance in the 55th Daytona 500 race. She became the first woman to win a NASCAR Cup Series pole when she set the fastest time in qualifying 500, and then finished in eighth place, the highest finishing position ever for a woman in the “Great American Race.”
 
In 2018, Danica closed out her time in racing with the “Danica Double” and competed in two marquee events that were cornerstones of her career: the Daytona 500 and the Indianapolis 500.  That same year, she became the first female host of the ESPY Awards which on the ABC network. 
 
Doing a deep dive with Danica Patrick, it’s clear that rising to the top of a largely male dominated sport was as natural as breathing for her. The girl specializes in shattering glass ceilings. Danica is a woman who stands in her truth and unapologetically uses her voice to express her opinions. In this in-depth interview, she bares her soul with strength and vulnerability as we cover everything from her upbringing and early racing days to relationship realizations and overcoming insecurities (yes, she’s dealt with imposter syndrome, just like the rest of us). 
 
Now, retired from racing, Danica is focused on her aptly named podcast, Pretty Intense, her speaking career, and her new role as vigneron and sole proprietor of Somnium Wine, her vineyard in Napa Valley, California, as well as her Provence Danica Rose wine brand.  
 
Allison Kugel: You started Go-Kart racing as a kid, with your family. What was the impetus for turning that hobby into professional racing?
 
Danica Patrick: I don’t think there was a specific point where I said, “I’m going to try this.” It was more of a natural progression. I remember when I was ten, I thought I would go to college for engineering to learn how to work on my race car. That was my first thought. The next jump was when I was sixteen and I moved to England to continue pursuing racing. I left high school. It was my junior year, and I pretty much didn’t even go [to high school] that year. I left halfway through my junior year, during Christmas break. I guess at that point in time I thought, “Hey, let’s see where this can go,” because there was a talent and there was an interest. I moved to England when I was sixteen and lived there for three years without my family. Then I came back, and I didn’t have a ride. I wasn’t racing, and at that point in time I think a lot of people, and I think probably a lot of parents would be thinking, “You better get your shit together and go figure out what you’re going to do.”
 
Allison Kugel: Did you have a moment of “Yikes, what have I done? I left school!”?
 
Danica Patrick: Honestly, I didn’t. I always had a lot of what I would call “blind faith,” that it was going to work, and I say blind faith because there is no way it should have (laughs).  I’m not from a famous family of racing names. There wasn’t some fallback if I didn’t make it on my own in racing. It was just me. There really was no good reason why I should make it, other than the fact that I just really had a lot of confidence that it was going to work out. I believed that if someone gave me a chance it could really be a big deal, and I could do the job. I stuck with it, and it was when Bobby Rahal hired me to drive his Formula Atlantic car, which was one step under Indy cars, which was probably the next step for me. The next point after that, because you never know how long stuff is going to last, thank God, was four races into my Indy car career. I had a big Indy 500 month. I almost qualified on the pole, and I almost won the race my first time there. It wasn’t one moment; it was a series of moments that got me there. 
 
Allison Kugel: Were you aware at that young age, that, for the most part, this was not a woman’s sport?  Like, “I’m doing something that women don’t do.”  
 
Danica Patrick: No, because that wasn’t the way I was brought up. It wasn’t like I was the only one. Sometimes there was another girl out there. I mean, shoot, at first my sister did it too. It wasn’t a complete anomaly, it was just more rare. My dad taught me to be the fastest driver, period. All through my Go Karting career, it was not about being the fastest. It was not about being the fastest girl. It was always about, “How fast can I go?” And so sometimes that meant I was half a second quicker than anybody else, because just being the fastest wasn’t my best. My best was more.    
 
Allison Kugel: You had an awareness that you were not competing against the other drivers, you were competing against your own best performance.
 
Danica Patrick: Yes. I think that was a core value. It’s almost like, there is no ceiling on this.   How far can you take it?
 
Allison Kugel: Were there naysayers? Was there any bullying or sexism that you encountered? 
 
Danica Patrick: That’s such a common question, especially being a girl in a guy’s sport, but that is not what happened. 
 
Allison Kugel: That’s good, that it didn’t happen. 
 
Danica Patrick: You know, any amount of it is human. Trust me, living in England and being a teenager with a bunch of teenage guys and having them gossip, or make jokes, or you could tell they’re whispering about you… but it wasn’t about being a girl. That was about being that age, you know? Maybe part of it was about being a girl, but that’s not what I chose to focus on. What I chose to focus on was that I was at a really pivotal age. Teenage years, boys will be boys, and this is just human nature. If this didn’t just happen at the racetrack, it would have been happening in school.
 
Allison Kugel: Good point.
 
Danica Patrick: Look, if someone is pinning me down for something that I’ve done that they don’t agree with, it’s like yeah, okay. But they’re also talking about me when I finish fourth, and you know what, they’re not talking about the guys when they finish fourth. You can’t go off and criticize the bad, because it seems like they’re coming at you because of your gender or something like that, because then there are other things that are happening because of [of your gender] that are great. I’ve always chosen to focus on the good that came with it, and not the bad, and I think it’s given me a really good non-victim mentality. Playing the victim is like an epidemic, and it’s hindering to progress. There is really nothing good that comes from it.  
 
Allison Kugel: Do you think the age we are living in now, with cancel culture, is that what you are referring to as the “victim epidemic?” 
 
Danica Patrick: I think it’s just a dangerous place to be. I think that anytime you are focusing outside of yourself, is not the right focus.

Allison Kugel: During your racing career, did you ever think about the possibility of grave injury, or the possibility of death? 
 
Danica Patrick: It is an awareness, but I don’t think it’s something you really think about a lot. I guess sometimes it’s contrast that gives you that perspective, in hindsight. I did the broadcast for the Indy 500 the year after I was finished, in 2019. I’m sitting on this pit row in the pit box with [sportscaster] Mike Tirico. We do a lot of the pre-race coverage, and then it shifts to the booth after that, and we’re done doing the majority of the work. The cars were coming down the front straightaway to take the green flag, and I remember I was having this moment where I was laughing and thinking this is such a different place to be [sitting]. Then I remember also thinking, “They are so crazy.” I knew how dangerous it was. From the vantage point of a spectator, I was able to let it get into my mind more, and into my body, and realize what the consequences were of a bad day, of a crash. Our perception is what creates our reality. If I would have had the perception of how dangerous it was, maybe it would have changed me as a driver, or changed how long I did it, or even if I did it. But I didn’t have that perception. There was an awareness, because I’m human and I’m not blind, but it wasn’t something that I put any huge amount of attention on.  
 
Allison Kugel: Has there been any type of fear or phobia that you have had to overcome? 
 
Danica Patrick: A million (laugh). There are many things that I’ve had to overcome. I’ve had to overcome the fear of not being good enough. I think that was a programming I got from a young age, from my dad pushing and pushing me. But if I had to choose between a dad that pushed me really hard and got me to where I am or have a dad that let me just do whatever I wanted and was easy going and not hard on me, they both have consequences. I’m happy to get the one that I got, but it doesn’t mean that I didn’t have something to deal with. My dad pushed me a lot and I had this sort of narrative in my head that nothing was ever good enough. If anyone ever criticized me for being lazy or not trying hard enough, I would get defensive. I would get triggered by it, because that was a wound, that feeling that I wasn’t good enough. That could show up in perfectionistic ways in work or in my relationships. It’s something I feel like I’ve had to deal with, and I’ve had to learn how to take compliments and to own the good things I have done, and to acknowledge that they are enough and that I am enough.  
 
Allison Kugel: By the way, that is one of the most common things I hear from people I interview. These are all people at the top their respective industries. It’s a common trait among high achievers. 
 
Danica Patrick: Thank you for sharing. I think the more it’s talked about, the more we understand. It’s important for people to understand that you get your patterning and programing from your family; from your parents, generally speaking, and that there is work to do later. My biggest accomplishment outside of my racing career, my biggest personal accomplishment, has been accountability and taking ownership for my part in things. It’s knowing that I attract my current reality based on my perceptions, based on my fears, based on my frequency. All of that stuff gives me my reality, and I am the creator. What we resist persists. If you constantly have a fear of not being good enough, you are going to constantly attract people that make you feel not good enough. 
 
Allison Kugel: That reaffirm that, yes. 
 
Danica Patrick: Exactly. What we are trying to do is correct the original wound, right? We think, “Well, I’ll prove it to this person, that I’m enough.” 
 
Allison Kugel: Yes, and that shows up, big time, in our romantic relationships. 
 
Danica Patrick: Exactly. We can’t fix it. It’s just a pattern showing itself over and over again to get you to change, do it differently, and see yourself and your part in that pattern. Another one is the mom stuff. This sort of fear of abandonment, which lends itself to co-dependency and being afraid to be alone. Once I was alone, I was like, “Wow, there is a lot of empowerment here.” I realized that the way I would show up would be really not as empowered and not as confident. I think the professional lessons have been more along the lines of effort, and I’m not going to bullshit around, you get out of it what you put into it. Sometimes things happen that are wonderful and they’re natural and they flow. When you are in flow, you’re doing what you should be doing, and things do come to you when you’re doing what you should be doing. Once you know what you want, things just happen, and it flows.
 
Allison Kugel: Whenever somebody says to me, “Well, I really wanted to do this, but I have to make a living,” my response to that is, “I don’t care where you get your paycheck from. If you want to do something and it resonates with your soul, do it. Do it at night, on the weekends, join a club for it. Don’t let anybody take that away from you and don’t shortchange yourself.
 
Danica Patrick: You can turn your passion project or something that you do on the weekends into your whole world. I always feel like the ceiling for things that are your job, but not your passion, at best is like an eight out of ten. There is no ceiling to what happens when you do something you are passionate about. All of the best stuff we have in this world comes from someone’s passion. When you set out solely with the goal of making money, I could almost guarantee you that it’s not going to last forever, or it’s not going to be that successful. Even if it is, it won’t feel good because that’s not what the human experience, your emotions, and your heart wants. Your heart wants something so much more expansive. Money is just energy. It’s just an exchange of energy.  You do something great, and you get money. It’s over. That’s transactional. When you set the goal to change people’s lives, to inspire people, to give people hope, to make them smile, there is no end to that.

Allison Kugel: Absolutely. It just expands and expands. Let’s talk about your podcast, Pretty Intense.
 
Danica Patrick: The name of the podcast comes from the title of my book, which came out in 2018, as a three-part book. It’s the mind, food, and then it’s fitness and the body. It starts with the mind, because what stops us from finishing anything that we want to accomplish? Our mind. We all know what it takes to eat healthy, we all know what it takes to work out or to lose weight and get fit and strong or build muscles. It’s not rocket science, but it’s our mind that stops us from being consistent and disciplined. So, the mind is where it starts. Then it gets into food and talks about the diet and how I live and eat, along with recipes that I wrote and photographed. The last part is on the body, with a workout program that I wrote that takes you through 12 weeks. I love health and wellness, and anything to do with physical and mental wellness is just my jam. The idea for the podcast, Pretty Intense, really got going in the beginning of 2019. I love to talk to people. I love to ask questions. I learned that I had to learn how to listen better (laughs), because I’d never done interviews, previously. I’d always been the one being interviewed, and my job is to ramble on to give you things to write or to air on TV, but I had to learn how to listen which was a good lesson. My podcast is all about diving in with people, and the most rewarding thing is when I get to the end of the interview, especially if it’s someone who does a lot of interviews, and they say, “You ask questions and got me to talk about things I ‘ve never even talked about before.”
 
Allison Kugel: Isn’t that the coolest feeling?
 
Danica Patrick: Yes, that’s the best. Your thinking, “Wow, all these years and I’m the one that got an interview out of you that you’ve never given before!” You do such a good job too.  I love these questions. 
 
Allison Kugel: Aww, thank you.
 
Danica Patrick: I’m sure you get that too, and that always feels so good. I believe one of my jobs here is to wake people up and to be a little bit of an initiator and that spark. I want to teach people that we are more alike than we are different. Division is another epidemic right now. We are finding and figuring out every possible way for people to divide. It just seems like it continues to compound, and it’s such a detrimental process to the human experience because community is literally the foundation of wellness. When people are taken out of community, just like in the body, when you take a cell out of its cell community, it goes rogue or kills itself.  The same thing happens in the human experience, and we have been put in the worst of positions in the last year and a half to be out of community.
 
Allison Kugel: If you could travel back in time and be able to alter any famous historical event, where would you go and what would you attempt to change, or bear witness to?
 
Danica Patrick: I just want to go back to the time of Jesus and see how that really went down, be there for it, and see what happened. I also have such a deep fascination for Egypt, for Egyptian mythology, and for the ancient times of the pyramids. I would really want to go back to how the pyramids were built, who built them, who used them, and how people were living back then.  What was the technology that was used? And to be able to see if there were really giants, was it extraterrestrial, was this anti-levitational or gravitational technology they had back then, that they decided to not use anymore? The building of the pyramids, I would love to see what that was like, what living was like then, and how they did it. And maybe Adam and Eve. Was there really Adam and Eve? Was it just two people and where was the Garden of Eden? Did they just appear? That would be interesting, because I think I’d just be sitting there watching nothing happen. Things in books from that long ago, we get the story wrong. If two people look at exactly the same thing happen, there are two different stories, and now you’re expecting these stories to get passed down in the Bible years after it actually happened. You’re telling me they got it verbatim? You’re telling me they didn’t get poetic with it? You’re telling me there wasn’t interpretation being written? I think there was probably a lot of stuff that didn’t happen exactly like we think it did.  
 
Allison Kugel: That’s an interesting one. Do you pray? And if so, who or what do you pray to? 
 
Danica Patrick: Yes, I do. How I pray has evolved and been confusing at times, even to the point where that’s become part of my prayer, like, “I’m not sure who to talk to right now,” so I cover them all.
 
Allison Kugel: Laughs.
 
Danica Patrick: I think a big underlying reason why prayer is so powerful is because you’re asking, you’re creating your own intention, you’re allowing yourself to know what you want, because so many people don’t even know what they want. They’re just a passenger in life. I think that having goals is important. There’s that manifestation nature of it. With prayer, there’s that manifestation part of it, especially when you get into the emotional side of it, whether it’s Tony Robbins, Joe Dispenza, Bruce Lipton, or Gregg Braden. 
 
Allison Kugel: All brilliant people…
 
Danica Patrick: They will tell you that you have to anchor your future by embodying the true feeling and emotion of what you envision, visualizing what you want, anchoring into that future life that you want, whatever it is, and then embodying that feeling and really letting it become a part of you. Your mind can’t tell the difference between a truth and a lie.
 
Allison Kugel: You’ve been watching the same stuff as me (laugh).
 
Danica Patrick: I can tell you watch this by your questions. I have a bookshelf full of all of this stuff, and by the way, that is my favorite thing to do with my podcast, is interview these kinds of people. I’m so fascinated with Quantum Physics, with science, with manifesting, with spirituality, and wellness.
 
Allison Kugel: It’s the new frontier, right? The previous generation didn’t have access to this information.
 
Danica Patrick: They didn’t, and I think possibly people were repressing this information. I think a lot of things have been repressed over time, because the answer to ninety-nine out of a hundred a question is money. A lot of things have happened because someone was making money from it. Whether it’s wellness, whether it’s Nikola Tesla who had free energy figured out and they decided instead to figure out how to get people to pay for it. Even water. It seems silly when I go to the store and buy a five-dollar bottle of water, if I’m traveling or something, they find ways to monetize everything.
 
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your wine company, Somnium Wine. Why have you chosen to purchase a vineyard and invest in your wine brand? 
 
Danica Patrick: I bought a piece of dirt, planted it, and made Somnium Wine. It started from nothing and then Danica Rose came about more recently with the opportunity to make an authentic rose. I always felt my brand has been rooted in authenticity, so I felt like this was in alignment, to make a rose from Provence, the birthplace of rose. The purpose of wine is about being present with the people that you are with. The goal is to get people to connect and to create memories together, to tell stories, to open up to one another. I want my wine to facilitate old school gatherings where you talk to each other, spend time together, make a meal and sit down at a table together. Communities are, again, a hallmark of wellness.
 
Hear the extended, unfiltered Danica Patrick interview on Allison Interviews. Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment journalist and host of the Allison Interviews podcast. Listen at Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. Follow on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
 
Learn about Danica Patrick’s Somnium Wine and Danica Rose collections, and tune into Danica’s Pretty Intense podcast at DanicaPatrick.com and Apple Podcasts. Follow on Instagram @DanicaPatrick