By Allison Kugel
Melanie Brown aka Mel B has reigned supreme as the spiciest of her bandmates since bursting onto the entertainment scene as Scary Spice in 1996 with the group’s #1 hit Wannabe. With a wild hair, piercings and a raucous personality to match, she began making headlines and never stopped. Her tempestuous marriages and some romantic near misses, including her split from Eddie Murphy heard ‘round the world, have at times overshadowed her on-camera talent on shows like UK’s X Factor and America’s Got Talent.
For years, rumors swirled about drug use and a party girl image cultivated during her marriage to ex-husband Stephen Belafonte. What few knew was the house of horrors that existed behind closed doors that Melanie’s oldest daughter, nineteen-year-old Phoenix, and Melanie’s mother, Andrea, both attest to in great and excruciating detail in Melanie’s recently released memoir, Brutally Honest. And brutally honest it is, as the outspoken girl from Leeds, England with the heavy Yorkshire accent (her most charming quality) recalls everything from growing up of mixed-race heritage during a time when it was anything but the norm, to Spice Girls fame, drugs, bisexuality, tempestuous romances, and a ten year marriage that she claims was so abusive that it drove her to attempt suicide in 2014. Four years after that horrific episode which left her with organ damage and a lot of bruised pride, Melanie slowly rebuilt her strength, finally filing for divorce from Belafonte in 2017. The two remain embroiled in a bitter legal battle, but Melanie takes solace in spreading her message about domestic abuse and domestic violence. Along with promoting her book, she is advocating for others who have experienced various forms of intimate or domestic partner abuse as a part of her daily work, along with motherhood and preparing to hit the road in 2019 with the Spice Girls.
After getting to know Melanie, I feel compelled to add that despite erroneous reports associated with her recent fall and subsequent hand injury, she insists that she is now substance-free, and I believe her.
Allison Kugel: How are your spirits these days?
Mel B: Obviously, I’m still on my healing path and it’s going to be an ongoing thing. Just taking care of myself, meditating, doing my reiki and eating well. I actually couldn’t be happier right now. I know there are more happier times to come, but right now I’m in a really good place and it’s taken me a long time to even get to this place, so I’m thankful.
Allison Kugel: Let’s go back a bit so people can get the big picture. What did the Spice Girls fame and hysteria of the 1990s feel like at the nucleus of it, from the inside looking out?
Mel B: It was tiring, but we really didn’t care because it was five girls together who all had each other, living our dream life. We were living in England, struggling financially, not having much to eat, convincing people to let us borrow their recording studios so that we could sit down and write and [record] our music. There was a phase of a couple of years where it was really, really tough. When we got to release our first single, Wannabe, and we signed with a record company and got Simon Fuller involved to manage us, it was really good, happy times that all five of us had dreamt of, and we were actually living that life. We were traveling the world, singing, performing, dancing, writing music and making a movie. It was a really beautiful few years. Of course, we were tired, because we didn’t allow ourselves any time off. But we were in control of what we did and when we did it, and we knew that we had to soar through life like a big tornado and strike while the iron was hot.
Allison Kugel: What do you feel you came into this life as Melanie Brown to learn?
Mel B: Well, I think the number one thing is that I come from a white mother and a black father. Back in the 1970s when they got together and had me, that was seen as something that wasn’t really done. They had a lot of things that they had to overcome in bringing me into the world and raising me in an area of England, four hours outside of London, where there weren’t any other mixed-race girls. That was one thing I had to find, was my own identity. Apart from the likes of Neneh Cherry and maybe Tracy Chapman, there really wasn’t anybody that I could look up to where I felt like I belonged, or anyone who I felt like I even looked like. For me, it was all about creating a path where hopefully other mixed-race girls, and other mixed-race kids could actually follow. For example, I never had my hair braided. I always wore my hair out. I’m very opinionated, but for the right reasons; not just to cause a ruckus. I do believe that I am here, somewhat, to make it okay to be in the skin that you’re in and the color that you are.
Allison Kugel: My next question was going to be, what are you here to teach? But I think you answered it.
Mel B: Yes, that is definitely a part of it, but I am here to learn, of course. One thing that is an ongoing thread in my life since I’ve been very young, like 2 or 3 years old, is being very honest. Kids are very honest, and they’re not sidetracked by their surroundings. They say exactly what they feel. That’s one of my things that I stick by and swear by, which is being completely transparent and honest. It’s not to offend or intimidate anybody. It comes from a good place and I have good intentions, but it is an ongoing thread in my life.
Allison Kugel: I always say that none of us are so fallible that we have nothing to teach, and even the wisest among us are also here to learn. We are all students, and we are all teachers.
Mel B: Sure. We can’t know everything, and knowledge is power. I wasn’t very educated when it comes to schooling or on paper. I’ve experienced more education through life’s experiences, through traveling, and through getting myself into certain situations, whether it be through work and dealing with contracts or from talking to the man down the street who’s waiting for his bus.
Allison Kugel: Obviously, the situation with your most recent ex, Stephen Belafonte is extremely contentious. But in general, how are you navigating co-parenting with three different fathers in the picture?
Mel B: My oldest is nineteen, so I had to do every other weekend and certain weekdays for eighteen years, and there’s a point where your fourteen or fifteen year old doesn’t want to go to her father and that’s a difficult task. I’ve never said a bad word about any of their fathers to my daughters. Angel’s eleven years old and she sees her dad (Eddie Murphy) on a regular basis. She’s actually going to his house next week to do the family Christmas card, which is really lovely. My seven-year-old, Madison, that’s all happening through the court, so that is kind of out of my hands. One thing I do with all my three girls, is I make sure they know that they’re loved, and that they came from a place of a loving relationship. Even though they didn’t quite work out, and me and their dads didn’t stay together, they all know that they came from a lot of love. One thing that is mandatory is that I always make it a very exciting thing when I send them off to their fathers. Angel is different, because me and her dad don’t have any problems with each other. With Madison (Brown’s seven-year-old daughter with ex-husband, Stephen Belafonte), they take everything in, so I try to make it exciting for her, even though I obviously have huge issues with her father.
Allison Kugel: Are you frightened for Madison when you send her off to see Stephen? Based on the abuse you’ve described in your book, aren’t you frightened for her to be around her father?
Mel B: I don’t think it’s fair for me to say that. All I can say is that I fought through the courts for her to have mandatory therapy every Saturday with a specialized therapist who is very aware of the situation. If there was anything for the therapist to be concerned about she would be able to flag it, based on the kind of intense therapy that she is doing with Madison. I have to trust and believe that if there was anything that I should be majorly concerned about, I’ve got a professional right there that can spot it before I do.
Allison Kugel: How about from work? Even a phone call from work?
Mel B: I wasn’t allowed to take my phone to work. And like I said, this doesn’t just happen overnight. They chip away at you, so you wind up going, “Oh, he took my phone because he wanted to get it fixed for me, or he’s going to put a new app on there.” It’s all done in a very controlling, obvious, yet un-obvious way. That’s the part that you don’t want to believe is happening. You still want to believe that they love you. It’s like, “Oh, I’ll go see the accountant because you’re working today.” You think, “Oh, that’s really nice.” When they’re actually going behind your back taking your credit cards and changing the name on the accounts to their name. When you’re in an abusive relationship, everyone is isolated from you, and they’re scared to call you. They’re scared to get in contact with you, because they too have been verbally abused by your abuser. You end up walking around going, “Why hasn’t my mom called?” Or “Why is my friend being really strange with me?” You don’t really know why, but now looking back, I know exactly why.
Allison Kugel: I get what you’re saying, but I know that I could literally go to my mother at any time. I could go to a police station and call her if I had to.
Mel B: How could I when I’m only allowed to be driven by him, or a driver that is one of his friends? And all I did was work-come home; work-come home.
Allison Kugel: It’s good to gain this deeper understanding from you, because people will think, she’s not your average Jane. She has all the resources in the world.
Mel B: It’s like having everything and nothing. And on the flip side, you’re not ready to admit anything to anyone else. If I were to call my mom up and say, “Mom, I’m being abused,” she’ll go, “What?!” You don’t want to admit to anybody and have to explain, because there is an element of no one’s going to believe you, which is what the abuser will put into your head, “No one’s going to believe you. You’re just fat and ugly. If you leave, I’m going to expose you on this level and that level. And even if you said anything to anybody, no one’s going to believe you because you’re full of shit,” kind of thing.
Allison Kugel: Your self-esteem is in the gutter and you stop believing in yourself. It becomes a mental prison, is what you’re saying.
Mel B: When I was at work I did believe in myself, because he couldn’t get to me at work. Nobody wanted to see him. They wanted to see me on camera. I’m very experienced and I’m very confident in what I say, so that was actually my savior, going to work. It was coming home that I dreaded, because I didn’t know what I was going to be experiencing that night.
Allison Kugel: You spent a decade walking on eggshells.
Mel B: Yeah, basically. Having spoken to a lot of these women who are in [shelters], and that are essentially in hiding from their abuser, they have exactly the same story that I have. They’re controlled, they’re captured, they’re abused on many different levels, they’re embarrassed and ashamed, and they don’t want anyone to know.
Allison Kugel: My takeaway from your book was, do not go into a new relationship when you are feeling depleted, because you’re likely not going to make empowering choices.
Mel B: But sometimes you may think that you’re over your ex, or you’re over the drama of having a baby with somebody and then breaking up; you think that you do feel fine. Sometimes it’s the kind of thing where you say, “I’m just going to smile, because the more I smile, the more I feel good.” And you’re thinking that you do feel good. There is no set time as to when you definitely feel at your most confident, or your vulnerability is gone. We’re women. We’re always going to have that little bit of self-doubt or that moment where before our period we feel a bit bloated and a bit frumpy. Women are very emotional, so there’s no set rule as to whether an abuser can come into your life. They don’t show up and go, “I’m an abuser. I’m going to do this and that to you.” No. They gaslight you. They make you feel like a princess one day, and then they make you feel like you’re a fat, ugly, unworthy cow the next day. And like I said, they find you, you don’t find them.
Allison Kugel: As a parent, knowing how difficult certain conversations can be between parent and child, I have to ask, how do you have a conversation with your teenage daughter about some of the more explicit things in your book? In your book, you’re talking about cocaine use, about threesomes and Phoenix read all of this. What does that conversation even look like?
Mel B: It’s not like I said, “Let’s sit down and talk about cocaine.”
Allison Kugel: But Melanie, how could that stuff not come up?
Mel B: I’m very, very open. I sit down with her and have a conversation with her in a way that’s relatable and understandable. I’ll let her know that if she wants to be sexually active or if she is sexually active, number one is to be safe. And if you want to experiment with a girl, or if you want to experiment with, let’s say, a threesome, make sure it’s consensual and make sure you actually feel safe. It is a conversation that you need to have. I’ll always say to her, “Why do you want to do this?” and “If you do that, how do you think it’s going to make you feel?” Because you never want to encourage your kids to go out there and try everything and anything; there’s always a reason. Some kids, they don’t need to try that kind of stuff. They don’t need to try anything sexually, apart from just to be with one person. They may not need to try lots of drugs, even though their friends [are doing it] or they’re around it. Luckily, I’ve got a really good, solid nineteen-year-old that has seen a lot and been around a lot. She knows, morally, what she feels comfortable with, and her morals are solid. She isn’t one of those teenagers running around, up to no good.
Allison Kugel: She didn’t express any disappointment, that you, her role model, fell from grace in terms of the drug use?
Mel B: No, if anything I’m a hero that got out alive and I’m eloquent enough to be able to speak about my story without too much pain in my voice, even though there is a lot of pain. She’s very proud of me. She’s encouraging me to talk more about it. That is why she, along with my mother, wrote a passage in the book.
Allison Kugel: Are you clean and sober today?
Mel B: Yeah. I haven’t taken a drug since the day I left him (ex-husband, Stephen Belafonte). What you’ll find in these abusive relationships is that the abuser is the one that provides you with all your alcohol and all your drugs. I’ve never had an addictive personality. I’m addicted to loving life, but that’s about it.
Allison Kugel: In a recent interview your daughter Phoenix gave about your marriage to Stephen, she describes walking halfway up the stairs one night and witnessing a rape in progress, and then running back downstairs to her room.
Mel B: I’ve always had houses where my bedroom is at the top of the house away from the family rooms, the kids’ rooms, everything. I guess one time she snuck up[stairs] because she heard me screaming or crying. She jutted the door open a little bit and she witnessed that, which I didn’t even know she’d witnessed until after I’d left him two years ago and started writing the book. She was adamant about that story going in the book. That story didn’t go in the book, but it actually went into an interview that she did, and she was adamant to talk about it. I did say to her at the time, “Are you sure about that?” She said, “Well, yeah mom, it’s important, because when you’re in an abusive relationship mom it doesn’t just effect you. It effects your kids, your friends and your family.” She said, “I want to talk about it.”
Allison Kugel: Do you pray? And who or what do you pray to?
Mel B: I meditate. I became a reiki master at nineteen. I’m all about affirmations and meditation, and just being mindful and thoughtful. I do go to church. I go to the Agape Church which is very spiritual. I go there two or three times a month with my kids, and it’s very uplifting.
Allison Kugel: Why make a public declaration that Eddie Murphy is the love of your life?
Mel B: It wasn’t really a public declaration. Don’t forget that when I started writing the book with my friend, there was no contract between me and my friend, there was no book publishing deal; there was nothing. I was writing it for self-healing; just for me kind of a thing. The more we researched, the more we learned that it didn’t just happen to me. It happened to many, many women, and we realized we needed to get this story out. We decided to delve deeply into all of the issues that people don’t talk about. I’m very much a source of information when it comes to coercive behavior and abuse, because I’ve lived it for ten years.
Allison Kugel: But what was the connection to speaking about how you still feel about Eddie?
Mel B: Oh yeah, back to that (laughs)!
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) Minor detail.
Mel B: One of the parts of the book that my friend couldn’t quite piece together was… why was I at my most vulnerable when my abuser came into my life. I’d just had Angel. She was two months old and then the monster came into my life. My friend and co-writer, Louise, was trying to figure out why I was feeling so vulnerable. Then it became, “Oh, you felt vulnerable because of the Eddie situation, so let’s talk about that.” I wanted to be able to talk about it and express it. I didn’t even fully understand it when we started talking about it; what went wrong and how it all kind of fell apart. It was important for me to put it all down on paper and do it from my recollection, and remind myself that I do know what a loving, respectful relationship is, because I had that and much more with Eddie. It was so important for me to put pen to paper with that, because I also had never spoken about it. I wanted people to know, and I wanted my daughter to know that it wasn’t just a wham, bam, thank you ma’am, and let’s move on to the next. It was a very loving courtship. It didn’t end well, but it was a major love story that was one of the biggest love stories of my life.
Allison Kugel: And your mom is, of course, back in your life…
Mel B: Yes, and she’s actually just about to drop the kids off at school now.
Allison Kugel: You guys are totally back on track again with your relationship?
Mel B: Yes. When my dad died, even though those circumstances were horrendous, and it was heartbreaking… my dad was at the point of no return. He was going to die and that was that. His death actually brought my whole entire family and my friends back together again. It was quite a serendipitous time, because it brought us all back together in a way that was sad, but really happy in the fact that we could all be in the same room together. For my mom, it’s been very healing. She, like my nineteen year old, wanted to write her own chapter in my book. And they both did the audio for my book. My mom and my daughter both really wanted to be a part of this.
Allison Kugel: You’re about to run off to a Spice Girls meeting later. Can you share?
Mel B: It’s about the tour. We put six shows up for grabs and we ended up doing thirteen because they sold out. We’re going to be talking about staging, choreography and our dancers. It will be all of us on tour, but without Victoria. She sends all of us her blessing, but she has always been adamant that performing is not really her thing. She’s busy with her family and her fashion empire. I still have hope that at some point she joins us, but as of right now she’s not.
Allison Kugel: The Scary Spice of twenty years ago was brash and bold, and very tell it like it is. You were the tough girl. After everything you’ve been through so publicly with heartbreak and abuse and people seeing that you are quite vulnerable, now who will Scary Spice be as you head out on the road in 2019?
Mel B: I’m still the same. A little more educated and more aware, and I would say more honest which could be misinterpreted as being even more brash and even more loud (laughs).
Allison Kugel: What qualities will you now look for at some point when you want to find love again?
Mel B: I don’t even want to think about that! It’s not on my radar. I’m very happy being single. I’m raising three kids, I’m on my own healing journey and I’m busy with work. I’m the only one paying my bills, and I’m paying the monster’s bills also every month and the lawyer’s bills. I’m focusing on the time I have off from work, just being with my kids. I’ve just put up the Christmas tree two days ago and I’m putting decorations all over the house, and it’s nice.
Allison Kugel: What is the rainbow or silver lining in the cloud for you?
Mel B: It would have to be my kids. They’re the ones that I wake up to every morning and I go to sleep with every night. It’s reassuring for me that they’re happy, they’re on track academically, they’re on track with me as far as our mother/daughter relationships goes. I’m so very, very proud of them. Also, what has been eye opening and reassuring for me is the fact that Women’s Aid (https://www.womensaid.org.uk/) had made me a Patron of their federation. They deal with these kinds of abusive relationships. They find you help, they find you refuge, they help you get educated, they help you if you need help through the legal system. They reassure you that you are not alone, that this happens a lot, and they make you feel safe.
If you or someone you care about is currently in an abusive relationship, and in need of assistance, please contact https://www.womensaid.org.uk/ in the UK or The National Domestic Violence Hotline at https://www.thehotline.org/ in the U.S. for help and resources.
Photo Credits: Courtesy of Melanie Brown/Hardie Grant Publishing
Brutally Honest by Melanie Brown with Louise Gannon is available in bookstores and on Amazon.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record available on Amazon. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
On October 3rd, Paula Abdul hit the road on her North American tour; a tour that’s been more than twenty-five years in the making, since her 1992 Under My Spell tour which grossed $60 million in ticket sales (a mint by 1992 standards), yet also yielded some tragedy that almost sidelined the beloved performer forever. The world knows Paula at the plucky, iconic dancer and popstar turned American Idol judge, turned legacy performer. What people may not know is that this Grammy-winning legend had to climb a mountain of adversity, both physical and emotional, to dance again.
For Abdul, this 2018 Straight Up Paula! tour is a miracle in the making. When audiences come out to see her this fall, they will bear witness to one of the greatest comeback stories in show business history. Because of Abdul’s preference for handling tough times privately, our conversation may shock you, and it will also make you root for her. Abdul’s imitable strength is in her refusal to allow her story to end with tragedy. She insisted on a second act with her long running stint on American Idol as the judge with heart, to Simon Cowell’s stone-cold blunt criticisms of aspiring vocalists. The show introduced her to a new generation of fans. Her Straight Up Paula! tour is a triumphant third act where she’ll share, not only her catalog of music and iconic choreography, but her surprisingly poignant life story.
Beyond singing and dancing, it was Abdul’s million-dollar smile, huge heart and humble responses during interviews that captured the publics’ affections and helped to define an entire generation. Beginning with her first #1 hit, Straight Up, in 1988, Paula Abdul was a Gen X darling of epic proportions. She brought something new and engaging to the mix, matching meticulous dance choreography with pop music.
Paula Abdul’s warmth and accessible appeal made an entire generation smitten. As someone put it to me recently, “She could have been your best friend’s sister, your cute neighbor… the girl next door you just had to get to know.”
Allison Kugel: You’ve said that when it comes to your choreography, you would often dream the dance steps up in your mind, and then you would run to the bathroom mirror and go through the steps that you’d already envisioned. I find that so interesting, because that’s how I write. I write by either talking to myself or thinking out loud, whatever you want to call it (laughs); or by having these inspired thoughts that come into my awareness. I’ll then rush over to the computer and type it all out. By the time I get to my computer, it’s already written, just like by the time you get to that mirror the choreography is already done.
Paula Abdul: Exactly the same!
Allison Kugel: Do you feel that when it comes to your choreography, it’s being channeled through you, like it’s coming from some higher source? Because that’s how I often feel…
Paula Abdul: Yes, that completely makes sense to me, because sometimes I’ll even question myself, like, “Where did that idea come from?” It’s really strange, but sometimes I can be in this zone where it feels like auto-pilot, and I’m not even aware of it. It’s kind of cool.
Allison Kugel: I remember reading something your mom said years ago, about you being four or five years old and declaring that you were meant to be a dancer; something to that effect. When did you start taking dancing lessons?
Paula Abdul: I started taking dancing lessons at seven, but I was four years old when I walked up to the TV set and told my family, “I’m going to do that,” and it was while watching Gene Kelly in Singing in the Rain.
Allison Kugel: Well, I remember your mom telling a story about a night when it was raining so hard outside that she couldn’t bring you to your dance class, and you were hysterical crying. The thought of missing a dance class was just devastating to you. Did you actually feel from that very young age that dancing is what you were put on this earth to do?
Paula Abdul: I absolutely did feel that way. I knew what my calling was. It’s very interesting, because I find that with dance, for many young kids, it’s just like that. I hear from so many parents saying that their daughter, that’s all she does. She does her studies, but she takes six classes a week and can’t bear the thought of not being able to make it through a class. Dance can strike a chord in your heart unlike anything else. It gets into your soul and it changes people’s lives. It’s been [therapeutic] for me, and for most people who dance. I hear so many of the same stories.
Allison Kugel: Is there anything else you feel you are still here to accomplish or experience, that has yet to be done?
Paula Abdul: I really want to do some more producing, both in television and film. I’d also like to do some more acting, something that is completely against type. I think it would be more challenging and fun, and it allows you to explore in a way where most people have no idea that a character like that can be within you.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your tour, Straight Up Paula!. Are you going to make each song’s choreography and costumes reminiscent of the original music videos, or will you change it up to reflect present day?
Paula Abdul: It will be a little of both. I know that fans come to hear those songs, and they will, but I’m not doing a direct replication of those [music] videos. There is a nod to them, with a little bit of nostalgia. But for me, this is an opportunity to create my own vision of what I want to do in terms of interpreting the songs. I’m incorporating lots of technology and multimedia, and with some storytelling as well. I’m also going to cover some fun things, and some not so fun things, from my life in this show. It’s giving people a little bit more insight into who I am, and the career I’ve had.
Allison Kugel: Going back to what we were talking about before, about being in the zone, how do you know when you’re in that zone and your creativity is flowing; versus when it feels forced?
Paula Abdul: For me, there is such a difference when there is a flow. Eight or nine hours can go by, and I can’t even believe it. And then there are times when it seems like the day will never end. I’ve learned that when the latter is happening, I have to do an abrupt about face and change the environment; step outside, do some other activity to wipe the slate clean. When you’re hitting a wall, it’s stagnant energy. It’s not creative, and it’s not conducive to rehearsal hall or anything else I’m trying to accomplish. For me, muscle memory is now a tricky thing. Your brain also, in terms of remembering, it’s different now. Things that were natural in my body, from so many years of injuries, I need to re-address certain dance moves and change it to what feels better for me now.
Allison Kugel: When you were talking about time flying by, or crawling by, it reminds me of what Deepak Chopra says about time not really existing, except in our minds. If you’re in the zone, you lose track of time and nine hours feels like nine minutes.
Paula Abdul: And it’s the best feeling, I’m sure you know! I can’t stand the latter, when time crawls. It’s the worst. You want to just cancel the day and start fresh the next day.
Allison Kugel: I always say that if you are in a creative field, it’s an odd thing, because you can’t just clock in and clock out. You have to be in a certain creative flow or nothing much is going to happen. Sometimes the best thing you can do when you feel that way is to not work.
Paula Abdul: It’s true, because it’s more of a wasted day, and it’s miserable (laughs).
Allison Kugel: I ask this question of everyone, because I learn so much about people through this question… when you pray, who or what do you pray to?
Paula Abdul: I believe in God, and I do pray to God. But I am also spiritual in the sense that I know I have angels around me, and I know to pay attention to the signs I get from the universe. I used to not pay attention to the signs that were right in front of me. I feel that I finally get it. I do pay attention now, as I’ve gotten older, to those signs the universe gives me.
(Paula’s dog wanted some attention and began to get very vocal in the background. We paused for a minute, so Paula could give her some love…)
Paula Abdul: It’s so funny! Every time I’m doing an interview and she’s supposed to be quiet, she knows, and she starts up (laughs)!
Allison Kugel: She can join in the conversation!
Paula Abdul: Do you have any dogs?
Allison Kugel: I have two dogs whom I adore, and I love horses as well. I ride horses a lot. Have you ever ridden?
Paula Abdul: That’s so cool. There is this one place called Miraval Resort and Spa in Arizona. It’s magical and mystical, and they do this whole equine course. It’s unbelievable how vulnerable and therapeutic the experience is.
Allison Kugel: Do you see yourself as a pioneer with putting dance at the forefront of the pop music industry?
Paula Abdul: I definitely do. I feel that’s one of my biggest contributions. That’s what people herald me as doing, and it’s nice to know that. It’s nice to know that you can create and spark those kinds of dance crazes, but also that they can stand the test of time. A lot of dancers will say, “You’re American Music Awards dance opening numbers are ‘almanac.’” (Laughs) And artists that will say, “Man, I watched and learned everything that you ever did.” It’s wonderful to hear that.
Allison Kugel: You came into the business as a dancer, and as a choreographer, and then you ventured into recording music. At that time, although you were extremely commercially successful, you had your share of critics. A lot of other artists at the time said, “She’s really a dancer, just trying to be a singer. She’s off-key, she should stick to choreography…” How did you handle that kind of criticism back then, and how do you handle it now?
Paula Abdul: I feel like being in this business for over thirty years, you learn how to handle constructive criticism, and just plain old, simple criticism. What I have learned is that, although I can’t just say what the formula is for success, because success is different for everyone, I do know that a recipe for failure is trying to please everyone. You never will. For me, I’m an entertainer that happened to resonate with millions of people. I’m grateful for that. I’ve never claimed to be the best at anything. I’m a constant, perpetual student, and I love learning. I love improving upon weaknesses and nurturing the strengths; and being able to draw upon inspiration from others.
Allison Kugel: Why do you think you resonated the way you did with my generation; those of us who were coming of age in the late eighties and into the early to mid-nineties?
Paula Abdul: I think the through-line of most of my success is my heart, and I think that it connects with other people’s hearts, especially women. I have this profound love affair with women. I’ve never been a threat to women. I have been very inclusive, and always thought the most beautiful thing you can do is to recognize beauty in someone else and celebrate that. Because I was always an accessible type of artist, people felt that they knew me, and they do know me.
Allison Kugel: Do you have a ten-year dream, as in, “in ten years I’d like to be retired, living on the beach.”? Do you have a plan like that, or is this the dream, to keep singing and dancing for as long as you can?
Paula Abdul: I feel extremely grateful that I’m able to do this. I was sidelined for many, many years because the last time I was on tour I was in a terrible accident in a seven-seater jet. One of the engines blew up and the right wing caught on fire, and we plummeted.
Allison Kugel: I don’t think many people out there are aware that you went through this ordeal. Were you belted in when the plane began to plummet?
Paula Abdul: I wasn’t wearing my seatbelt. I was getting ready to put my seatbelt on, but I never made it and I hit my head on the [ceiling] of the plane. It caused me to have paralysis on my right side, and I endured fifteen cervical spinal surgeries. I went through all of that, mostly, privately. Back then, we didn’t have tabloids like we do now. We didn’t have the extent of paparazzi or the [internet], so you were able to contain some information. I was so afraid of being counted out and looked at as damaged goods. The problem was that, at the time, I was. I ended up having to take almost seven years off to have all these different neuro-surgeons operating on me. So, the fact that at this stage of my life, I’m able to do this, is the biggest gift ever! I am living, in many ways, my dream. But I also would love to branch out into other areas. And I get as much joy behind the scenes as I do from being out in front.
Allison Kugel: What do you hope audiences will experience when they come out to see you on the Straight Up Paula! tour?
Paula Abdul: I hope during the show they feel a celebration of fond memories of their time growing up with me. I also hope people get a chance to know me further, and get a better sense of who I am, with my whimsical ways and my sense of humor. It’s going to be a nod to everything that has inspired me since I was young, and celebrating my career, with the ups and the downs, and everything in between. I hope everyone leaves with a smile on their face.
Photo Credits: Studio 10 Australia
For dates and tickets to Paula Abdul’s North American Tour, Straight Up Paula!, visit https://tour.paulaabdul.com/. Tickets also available through Ticketmaster.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
Born of a revolutionary bloodline to activist filmmaker, Melvin Van Peebles, you could say that Mario Van Peebles was born to make films that nudge our social consciousness and encourage us to answer questions we hadn’t thought to ask. An actor, director and writer, Mario Van Peebles’ first foray into acting was playing a younger version of his father Melvin’s character, Sweetback, in the senior Van Peebles’ most notable film, 1971’s Sweet Sweetback’s Baadasssss Song. Baadasssss Song pioneered a new era of African-American cinema throughout the 1970s. It was this small role in his father’s groundbreaking film that set the stage for Mario’s life and career. He would continue to be driven to add to his father’s earlier legacy with films that push audiences out of their comfort zone and question social and societal boundaries.
One theme that run through much of Mario Van Peebles’ work is the assertion that we all have the right to be fully recognized human beings, but more provocatively, how do we react when we feel that right has been infringed upon? Some might call Van Peebles an iconoclast, coming for long cherished, yet often potentially destructive social norms and institutions, while remaining inherently likeable to his fans. The secret, he says, is in the characters he writes, directs and sometimes portrays; they are complex portraits that make us look at the gray areas of life while being entertained.
As a filmmaker, he has an endless fascination with American culture, with all of its bumps and bruises. And as he states, "America is often referred to as ‘the melting pot.’ If you take immigrants from all over the world with different beliefs and bring them together you get conflict and sparks, but from that cultural [suffuse], you also get great music and art.”
In his latest independent film, Armed, written, directed and starring Van Peebles, he plays a former U.S. Marshall who has fallen on hard times after he led his team of under-cover agents on a raid that went horribly wrong. Now, suffering from PTSD and other mental health issues, as well as a somewhat warped sense of reality, he must navigate life as a civilian while desperately trying to regain some former glory and recognition. Armed aims to portray the complexities of human nature and questions the publicly floated theory that “a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun.” Van Peebles’ character, Chief, was one of the good guys in his career as a U.S. Marshall. Still armed with a collection of guns, he now struggles with mental illness; a potentially combustible combination. The questions that this film asks are topical and obvious, but the conclusions are not, which is what makes Armed an interesting watch.
Allison Kugel: I’m going to lead with a comment that your character, Chief, makes at the end of your new film, Armed; “We’re all born into this world looking for love, and sometimes we settle for attention.” That statement is profound and ties into our culture’s current obsession with social media. What’s your take on that?
Mario Van Peebles: It’s understanding the ego and its need to experience itself. The ego doesn’t like being invisible. It can’t handle that, and so we need recognition on some level. Also, as pack animals we need recognition, because we need to have a designation within the pack or we don’t survive. A great white shark doesn’t need recognition, it just needs to eat (laughs). But a wolf… is it the beta wolf, is it the alpha wolf? It needs to know what its role is within the pack. Social norms and structure play a big part when you’re a pack animal. For example, if a kid can’t get recognized for being an A student, he’ll settle for being recognized as a disruptor, or the class clown, or the athlete, or even as the cutter. The bigger thing, of course, is to be loved. That’s the ultimate high. But when we can’t get that, we settle for some sort of attention. Now, with social media, people are creating these faux-lifestyle commercials that are not really them. There’s a Drake lyric where he says, “I know a girl happily married ‘til she puts down her phone.” The pictures you take, those Snapchats you take, are capturing these created or staged moments.
Allison Kugel: How do you connect that statement to the mass shootings that are happening with increased frequency?
Mario Van Peebles: The people that seem to commit them are often referred to as loners, and people that didn’t fit in; people who wanted a sense of importance that they didn’t feel. Part of it, I think, is that we have evolved rather quickly, socially speaking. I’m in New York right now, and I’m on the eighth floor. Someone above me is on the ninth floor, and someone below me is on the seventh floor. We’re not really designed to live like this, where we’re stacked up on top of each other. Cities are these artificial social constructs. Our bodies are pretty much the same as when we were in Egypt, or maybe when we were in chains. But socially we’ve evolved very quickly. As pack animals, as hunter gatherers, we do well in groups of maybe fifty, or even a hundred. Beyond that, we divide into sub-groups. We want to be in groups where everyone knows our name, where we are not nameless. When you live in a city and you suddenly are around whole groups of people who don’t know your name, you can be surrounded by folks and yet have feel very lonely and disassociated.
Allison Kugel: You’ve come up with a catch phrase, “Make America Think Again,” an obvious retort to Donald Trump’s “Make America Great Again.” What inspired it?
Mario Van Peebles: Even before [Trump] put that slogan out there, I wanted to make films that made people think. There are three loves in life: love what you do, love and enjoy the people you do it with, and love what you say with what you do. If I can make people think while they consume art, maybe they’ll think when they’re ordering their food, or when they’re picking out what car to drive, or maybe, even when they’re voting. I’m intrigued by the relationship between the art we watch and how we vote. My film will hopefully make people discern, “Oh wow! We all have some good guy and some bad guy within us.” “A good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun,” is a very reductive way of looking at the world. The reality of human beings is much more complex. I’ve always wanted to make films that make people think, so it was just natural to say, “Let’s Make America Think Again.”
Allison Kugel: Human beings are very complex. Personally speaking, I am the first to say that I’m not a good candidate to be a gun owner. I’m a very passionate person, an emotionally driven person, and I had a temper in my past. I think those of us that are in the arts tend to experience some high highs and low lows; it’s how we are able to create. But I know that because I feel things so deeply, there have been times I may not have been in the best state of mind. So, I have always said that I never want to own a gun.
Mario Van Peebles: I have never ever heard anyone say that. That is awesome that you’re aware of it, and that says a lot about where you are in your life, emotionally. But you’re able to make a good living doing what you love, as am I. To some degree, the system works for us. It’s much easier when the system works for you, to be in that emotional state to even analyze yourself on that level.
Allison Kugel: It requires having the luxury of time to get to know yourself, and to develop that consciousness…
Mario Van Peebles: And perspective, correct. You’re not just hustling hand-to-mouth, trying to feed your baby, buy pampers, and figure out how to avoid the drug dealer down the street.
Allison Kugel: I’ve heard so many people say that putting your own money into a film is the worst investment one could make. You even wrote in your director’s statement, “The golden rule is he who has the gold makes the rule. The other [golden] rule is he who uses his own gold to finance a film is a knuckle head or has the last name Van Peebles.” (Laughs) Are you in it simply for the social impact, or is this film also a business venture for you?
Mario Van Peebles: It is for me, as well as one of my sons (Mandela Van Peebles). He took the money he made from Roots, and that’s why his name is [in the credits] as Executive Producer. He liked the idea of Armed, and I think he’s going to get a pretty good return. I’ve done it before, and it is a risk, but it’s a calculated risk. I can’t think of anything better to do with it other than paying for education and travel. I don’t want more clothes. I have one hybrid car and the air conditioner is broken (laughs). I’m laughing, but I’m serious. I will eventually get another car. But what do I want to look back on when I’m an old fart? I want to do the movies I want to do. And like I said in my director’s statement, you can’t make Supersize Me if you’re going to take McDonald’s money. All the movies lately with casts of color, and there are some wonderful movies out now, but they’re all race-centric. My movie, Armed, is not race-centric; it has nothing to do with race, and yet it’s a multiracial cast.
Allison Kugel: I’ve noticed that you tend to sway more societal than racial with your messaging.
Mario Van Peebles: If you look at my film Baadasssss!, the same day that Baadasssss! came out, the movie Soul Plane came out. Baadasssss! is about my dad and his film, Sweet Sweetback’s Baadasssss Song (1971). The LA Times wrote that these two movies came out on the same day; Soul Plane was made for $16 million by a big studio with a predominantly African American cast, and the premise was that black people running an airline is laughable. It’s a message of disempowerment. Baadasssss!, made for $1 million in 18 days by an independent filmmaker, says that the idea of people of all colors coming together and making a hit movie that changed the complexion of Hollywood is a possibility, and it’s a fact, and it’s a real story and a message of empowerment across color lines. I couldn’t have made that impact within the system.
Allison Kugel: You have to value your own soul to make those kinds of decisions; that has to be worth something to you. It’s hard to find sometimes in certain industries, but I have no doubt that it does exist. I’m talking to it right now.
Mario Van Peebles: Sometimes you find it in people who don’t look like you. They don’t have the same beliefs as you; they’re white, they’re black, they’re gay, straight, male, female, all of it. If you’re open to that smorgasbord of humanity and you make it a welcoming place, then you learn. And boy do you learn quickly when you’re working with people.
Allison Kugel: The first time I became aware of you was in the early nineties, with the film New Jack City, in 1991. New Jack City was a social and political commentary on the crack epidemic, and it was a very profitable film. Throughout your career, the roles you’ve played in front of the camera, and the films you’ve made, have all had social and societal messages, beyond their entertainment value. Do you ever like to take on a role or become involved with a project just for entertainment’s sake?
Mario Van Peebles: I could probably talk myself into it by saying, “Well, I could do this slant on this character, which would make it interesting.” I was in Jaws: The Revenge (1987), and I found a way to have fun with that. Part of the fun is finding other ways to enlarge the story or the experience. So, absolutely! But I find ways of making it work for myself and enriching it. That’s a lot of fun to do.
Allison Kugel: With this film, Armed, do you fear the echo chamber effect, where people that are on the left and proponents of gun control laws are going to be responsive, while people on the right who are very pro-Second Amendment aren’t going to be interested at all?
Mario Van Peebles: I think if you are absolutely committed to a position, then you will be committed to it with or without this film. If I make a documentary about [guns], then yes, that absolutely is the case. We don’t tend to learn informationally; we learn behaviorally. If you make something entertaining and you play against type it tends to grab people’s attention. People are used to seeing me playing a character that is heroic. In Armed I’m playing against type. With this character, you’re kind of waiting for him to get it together, and you’re rooting for this guy. You’re in this guy’s skin, and then when it goes sideways, you’re still right there with him. It makes you feel like, “I enjoyed being there and still wanted him to win, but I was super conflicted.” The moral of this film is, can I put myself into the skin of someone who is kind of a ticking timebomb? Good film takes you in, just like good religion takes you in. Bad religion is exclusionary and says, “You can’t come in because you’re different. You mentioned New Jack City. It’s the same thing with Chris Rock’s character in New Jack City. How many gangster films make the crime seem victimless? In New Jack City, it’s not just the good cops and the villains or gangsters. You also have Chris Rock, who’s a victim of the crack epidemic. When audiences watched “the victim” in that film, I had kids in the first screening of New Jack City stand up and yell at the screen, “Just Say No Motherf*cker!” When you get kids to react against drugs in a gangster movie, wow! With this new film, Armed, I can try to get people inside the head of a guy who loves to be recognized, who would settle for attention, and who realizes he might not be a good candidate to be a gun owner.
Allison Kugel: What do you think you are on this earth to learn, and what are you here to teach?
Mario Van Peebles: That’s a great question. For my birthday, I had my kids record answers to some questions I asked them. I gave them six questions and that was one of them. I guess I want to stay old enough to be a great teacher and remain young enough to be a badass dude. I always want to be okay with saying, “I don’t know.” If you fill a glass with water, you can’t put milk in it because it’s already filled up with water. You’ve got to be willing to not be full to take new things in.
Allison Kugel: Which goes back to our earlier conversation about remaining open to information that may not fit your current narrative…
Mario Van Peebles: That’s why I always want to remain open to learning new things. If the world needed green, I think I would try to find a way to bring in some green. If the world needed more yellow, then I would try to find that. Each of my kids is different and it has made me be a different dad to each one of them. It’s been interesting to learn that parenting is not one size fits all. Right now, the world needs an elevated consciousness and a sense of the we. My kids recently asked me, “You mean if all the kids all over the world refused to fight, there would be no more war? And if they listened to us there’d be no more prejudice? It would stop in one generation?” Sometimes what I’m here to learn, I learn through my kids. The basis of all of this is to just be kind. Be kind to the planet, be kind to yourself, be kind to your neighbor. It sounds corny, but that’s at the essence of it all.
Photo Credits: Mario Van Peebles, GVN Releasing, MVP
Armed, written, directed by and starring Mario Van Peebles, is out in theaters, on digital platforms and VOD.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.
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By Allison Kugel
David Guetta has become a music impresario, churning out beat banging, genre busting pop songs that have been topping the charts for nearly a decade with mega hits like Titanium featuring Sia; Where Them Girls At featuring Flo Rida and Nicki Minaj; Club Can’t Handle Me featuring Flo Rida; Who’s That Chick featuring Rihanna and I Gotta Feeling featuring The Black Eyed Peas. Guetta is the King of Collabs. His creative input on a song almost assures chart topping status and his fans have dubbed his music, “Guetta-blasters,” an homage to his bold immersion into hip hop culture, and his constant and effortless ability to blend hip hop and pop music with an addictive beat.
Born in France to liberal intellectuals who shunned materialism, Guetta says he yearned for a more glamourous life, which he soon discovered in Europe’s underground club scene where he began deejaying as a teenager. He also fell in love with all things American, as he described to me, delving into American books, movies and music, and yearning to conquer the stateside music scene.
During our conversation we discussed his seventh, yes seventh, studio album, simply titled, “7.” It’s an eclectic, genre-fluid collection of emotionally charged lyrics and hypnotic melodies. Of course, the album is full of Guetta’s famous collaborations with the likes of Sia, Jason Derulo and Justin Bieber.
Allison Kugel: Was your creative vision, of merging electronic dance music with urban music, there from the start, or did it evolve into that because of the opportunities that came your way?
David Guetta: This may sound crazy, but when I was a kid and I began deejaying, there was no electronic music (laughs). When I was a teenager I was playing funk, and then I went to hip hop and then house music. That’s why for me, it’s kind of natural, because I come from this culture. Then I just moved to a different style, and one day I was able to merge them together. I love music, in general. I like to create emotions with my music, and I like to make people dance.
Allison Kugel: You’re the first deejay I’ve seen that has been able to transcend, not just across various musical genres, but you have been able to get to the point where you’re considered a mainstream recording artist in your own right. How did you create this space for yourself that really didn’t exist before?
David Guetta: Exactly! That’s what is so interesting to me. The world is a certain way, the music industry is a certain way, and if you want to be part of a certain “family,” you’re told, “This is the way things are done.” To me, you don’t have to follow those rules. I created my own rules. At that time, I was extremely criticized for this. And then everybody did the same. I want to create my own rules, basically. That’s how I have always been doing it, and that’s how I’m doing it now. I just finished my album (7, out September 14th), and it’s very eclectic.
Allison Kugel: Yes, it certainly is. Every song on your new album has a completely different sound and emotional tone to it. From your perspective, is there any one theme that ties the album together?
David Guetta: This album is called 7. It is my seventh album, but the number seven also represents the end of a cycle; a week is seven days, the creation of the world in the bible is seven days and my birthday is on [November 7th]. That number is kind of magic to me. What I did with this album, we were talking about how I merged different styles in the past and created a new style of pop music. I wanted to go back to my roots and do a full pop album in different styles. I’m going to do a full electronic album that is completely going back to my roots and being completely underground. So basically, instead of compromising, I’m going to create those magic moments with an album that I could play in the festivals, in the clubs, and be able to have played on the radio. It came down to either being very pop or hip hop for the radio or being underground again in the clubs. I wanted this album to be real. There is this one record that I really love, which was released in Europe, that is called Don’t Leave Me Alone. It’s one of my favorite albums. It’s pop, but it’s electronic and forward thinking, and it doesn’t sound like anything else out there. I also have Latin records and a huge record with Jason Derulo and Nicki Minaj.
Allison Kugel: Is there a difference for you, when it comes to collaborating with male artists versus female artists? Do you take a different approach?
David Guetta: Not really. Sometimes I will write with a male artist and we will have a female artist sing it. This happens a lot; or even the other way around. If you want to go higher in the notes, of course you would do that with a female artist. Also, you’re not going to necessarily tell the same story in the music with a male artist versus female, even though things are changing, and I love this (laughs)! I think that things are a little bit less stereotyped right now.
Allison Kugel: Tell me about this special creative synergy that you and Sia share?
David Guetta: It’s incredible, because first, we have a lengthy history together. Sia, when we started to work together, was not the big artist she is now. We created [the song] Titanium (from Guetta’s 2011 5th studio album, Nothing but the Beat) together, which was, for both of us, a life changing record. Sia deserves every success she has. She is my favorite artist. She can sing, she can write like no one else, and any time I need her she is always there for me. We have kept working together, and I love the combination. I think what is interesting in music is to combine opposite feelings together into one song. For example, if you play happy chords and have a happy melody, and you use bright sounds, it sounds kind of cheesy. And if it’s too dark, it’s like, “Oh My God. I want to shoot myself.” You know (laughs)? What is interesting to me is to have a dark instrumental with a happy melody, or the other way around. I’m a happy person, so I like to make emotional records that put you in a good mood. Like, I produced I Gotta Feeling (the 2009 hit single from The Black Eyed Peas’ 5th studio album, The E.N.D.). Those are the kinds of records I make. And Sia, she is a moody, melancholy, survival kind of artist. The combination between the two is the magic. That is why me and Sia work so well together.
Allison Kugel: You like the contrast of blending dark and light feelings into your musical collaborations.
David Guetta: Exactly, and it’s just like that with movies I like to watch. If you see an action movie, and all they’re doing is shoot, shoot, shoot; bang, bang, bang, it’s stupid and boring. If you have an action movie, but there is also a love story in there, it works better. With music, it is the same.
When you study music theory and different types of melody and core percussion, they teach you that people want to have seventy-five percent of an experience of hearing something that is familiar to them, and twenty-five percent maximum of feeling excited by hearing something new. This is really a precise number. It’s interesting, when you listen to a certain core percussion you need the last chord to feel good, and it’s the same when you go back to the first chord. In between the first and the last chords, you can afford to be more experimental. But if you were to add one chord after the other in a sequence that no one ever heard before, it’s very rare that it would work. People need a little bit of excitement and they need their familiarity.
Allison Kugel: What spiritual philosophy do you subscribe to? And how does it impact your work?
David Guetta: I’m a very happy person, and I’m trying to share this with the world. I’m trying to share my passion for music with the world, and I’m trying to bring people together. I think there are two things that bring people together, and that is sports and music. At a Football match you may have the president of the country, and you have working people; people from all walks of life. That is what I am trying to do with music. That’s what has been my mission my entire life. I’m coming from an underground scene, but I always wanted my music to cross over, because I’m not a guy who’s trying to keep it for myself. I like sharing. When I was trying to bring urban music and electronic music together, people’s feeling was that if you’re black you’re going to be into urban music, and if you’re white you’re going to be into electronic music. But why? To me, we are all the same, so we can also create music that speaks to everyone.
Allison Kugel: I read that your father was a Sociologist. Did his studies and his work have any impact on your life philosophy, or anything about how you choose to live your life?
David Guetta: It’s funny, because my parents were very, very left. And because it was the 1960s, they were hippies. Of course, being a hippy at that time was very common. I was raised like this. So, for me, being rebellious was saying, “I want to be an entrepreneur and I want to make money. I don’t want to be like you guys.” (Laughs) I was also super pro-America, and I was only watching American movies and listening to American music.
Allison Kugel: What about things like picking up your father’s philosophies on any social causes, or on human behavior; things like that?
David Guetta: You know, I really hadn’t thought about it. Now that you mention it, I would say a lot of the advice I was given stuck with me. Things like believing and treating everyone as equal, and just a certain way of navigating the world, without me even realizing it.
(originally ran 1-2-2014)
By Allison Kugel
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas is surprisingly low key about her own legend. You have to nudge her to remind her of what she and her fellow TLC members, Tionne “T-Boz” Watkins and the late Lisa “Left-Eye” Lopes mean to the music industry and to their tens of millions of fans who have collectively purchased more than 65 million TLC albums, worldwide. Chilli stands in awe of the people who are in awe of her, yet, it’s evident that there are still songs unsung in her heart. She speaks of a future TLC album with a combination of excitement and angst. It’s a longtime coming, and she knows it.
In the meantime, Chilli has joined the ranks of other music industry heavyweights, gracing the judge’s panel of the latest talent competition show, TruTV’s Fake Off. Fake Off aims to break the mold where talent competition television is concerned. Ten versatile and talented teams compete in the art of “Faking,” by re-creating iconic pop culture moments through a combination of dance, mime, illusion, synchronicity, lighting and scenery. Think Las Vegas spectacular meets the TV show, Fame.
As we drifted from topic to topic, Chilli’s demeanor lit up when conversation turned to the topics of motherhood and the idea of soul mates, as well as her loyal fan base of A-list musicians. Lady Gaga, Bette Midler and Prince all count themselves as proud TLC superfans!
Allison Kugel: I watched a couple episodes of Fake Off and it’s like watching the big productions in Las Vegas. The performance troupes are very outside-the-box in terms of what is considered commercially viable entertainment. How was the concept for the show pitched to you?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: They reached out to me and sent over some stuff you would see in Vegas, and [performances] from overseas as well. It was that type of entertainment and it was so different. Once they explained to me what “Faking” was, I said, “Wow, this is great!” I wanted to be a part of it.
Allison Kugel: Has that type of performance art been called “Faking” for a long time, or did they come up with that name just for the television show?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas : The reason it’s called Fake Off is because the groups are given themes from iconic concepts, movies, cartoons, television shows, and stuff that everyone’s familiar with. Then they have to put their best “Fake” on it. You know when you watch something and you feel like, “Wow! That was almost just like the original!?” That’s what the art of Faking is. It’s not necessarily what their gifts are, but it’s how they are entertaining you; the way they do it.
Allison Kugel: What’s it like for you to be judging other artists on this show?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas : It’s a little different because I’m not judging singers or just dancers. They’re dancing, but it’s not like what I do. But overall, it is entertainment and I enjoy entertainment. My thing is, can you captivate me the whole time you’re on stage, and can you captivate the audience? So, I can judge them and I love judging on that because that’s not an easy thing to do. It’s not easy to entertainment people and make everyone happy with what you just gave them.
Allison Kugel: Did you ever get a piece of constructive criticism early in your career that maybe stung at the time, but looking back you can see that it made you better in some way?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas : I don’t remember any one particular thing. The type of criticism that I got early on in my career, I don’t know if it was constructive criticism. It was just criticism. It wasn’t given to me in that constructive light. It hurt me very badly but I got over it, and I improved myself. But when it’s coming from a good place? I don’t really know if I ever got that from anyone.
Allison Kugel: Really? Not a producer, maybe?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: I just naturally have a respect for somebody that I feel is more advanced than myself. MC Hammer gave us, or me in particular, a lot of insight. He didn’t necessarily tell me, but I watched him every night, how he performed, and it helped me as a performer by watching him.
Allison Kugel: You’re talking about back when TLC was opening for him on tour.
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas : Yes. You have this man with so many people on stage with him, but he stood out. And that was amazing to me.
Allison Kugel: Watching these performers do their thing on stage when you’re filming Fake Off, does it give you a feeling of wanting to try something theatrical, like a Broadway musical?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas : I know I don’t ever want to do a Broadway musical, but I look at some of those elements like the shadowing and the lighting and stuff like that. I’m definitely interested in that as far as [TLC’s] show on stage, because I saw a lot of things in these performances that could take our show to the next level.
Allison Kugel: I want to talk about your non-profit organization, Chilli’s Crew, which works with teenage girls to mentor them and build healthy self-esteem. To personalize it a bit, what were some of your self-esteem issues as a teenager and how did you overcome them?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas : Just being the smallest one; that was always an issue for me. I didn’t care about the height part, but when I was in eighth grade I remember you had a few [girls] with the boobs and the hips and stuff. I used to drink this weight gain drink. It was this powder you mix with milk (laughs). I would get up every morning to see if I had gained any weight, and that never happened for me. I was a late bloomer, and that was my issue growing up. Now I love my small boobs and I have for many years. I’m alright with myself.
Allison Kugel: What do you hope the takeaway message is for these girls who are involved with Chilli’s Crew?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: The number one thing is their self-esteem. I really try to work with them on that and help them not to focus so much on the little things that seem sooo big to them right now. I do remember being that age and an older person telling me that. You just think they don’t know what they’re talking about. But the fact that I’m Chilli from TLC, they’ll listen to me more and I love that. I also tell them not to use their current circumstances as an excuse to not succeed. A lot of times young people will say that they’re a product of their environment and that is all they know. That’s not a good excuse. If you’re in a bad situation, whether you’re in foster care or were abused or whatever it is, you know that doesn’t feel good so don’t repeat that. Use it as a stepping stone to get out there and make a difference, and spread the word about it.
Allison Kugel: TLC has always been about female empowerment for young women. You’re the single mom of a teenage son. What has that journey been like for you, seeing life from the perspective of a teenage boy?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: I’ve found that the only difference between boys and girls is the attention span (laughs). That’s pretty much the difference to me, because at the end of the day and as a parent you have to equip yourself for whatever comes up, with a boy or a girl. There are some people that are better with boys or better with girls, but I think you should be the best you can be for whatever God gives you. I just put good morals and values in my son, and I’ve been doing that since he was a baby. That’s all you can do, and you obviously have to pay attention to your child’s personality. You see that very early on, and you have to shape the mold but you don’t want to break it. You don’t want to break their spirit. The teenage years are my least favorite, though my son is phenomenal. He does not get in trouble and he’s not a bad kid. But the fact that they think they know so much (she sighs, expressing the exasperation of parents of teenagers everywhere). I tell him, “Tron, I’m telling you, I said the same thing to my mom!” They just have to go through certain things, become more mature and get that wisdom. You just want to shield them from all the bad but you can’t do that.
Allison Kugel: I know, I know. I’m going to go through that at some point as well. Right now I have a five year old boy.
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: Oh wow! I love boys. I have nieces and I have a goddaughter and I am telling you, they are the most amazing kids. You can’t say boys are better than girls or vice versa. It just depends upon their personality and how you as a parent shape and mold them, and who you have around them influencing them, both male and female. But just love that boy, and I need you to get him hooked on WWE. Even if you had a girl I would tell you the same thing. It’s so good!
Allison Kugel: Right now he’s obsessed with superheroes. He runs around the house in his Iron Man, Spider-Man and Batman costumes all the time.
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: (Laughs). My son at five, Oh My God, he loved Ninjas. And sometimes he would want to sleep in his Ninja outfit, and I’d be like, “Tron!”
Allison Kugel: Yup!
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: Or I’d say, “Ok, let’s take a bath,” and he’d put the mask on and he didn’t want to move his face a certain kind of way because he was afraid that it might move the mask. It was hilarious.
Allison Kugel: I know. They stay in character. Its crazy (laughs).
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: It’s awesome. Kids are the most amazing gift ever.
Allison Kugel: In what major way do you see your son, Tron, following in your footsteps?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: For one, his character. He’s just a good guy. And I think I’m a good person, you know? We all have faults, but God has made me good. I have a conscience and I care about things, and he’s like that. Now the other thing, he definitely has the music bug. It’s in his DNA, he couldn’t help it, I guess (laughs). I just wanted to wait and see what he would show me. I didn’t guide him into this, although he’s been around it his whole life. He’s a drummer, he writes music and he’s really good.
Allison Kugel: Speaking of family, you and Tionne continue to work with your ex and your son’s father, producer Dallas Austin, to this day. What makes him an ideal collaborator for TLC?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: I think the last time we worked with Dallas was when we did the song… it was originally done for Lady Gaga. Lady Gaga went to him and she said she wanted a TLC record. It wasn’t released. But I think overall he gets it, and he really gets Tionne’s voice, probably more than anybody. She has a very different sound and [Dallas] knows how to write songs that are perfect for her voice, and he just knows how to produce her vocals better than anybody I’ve ever seen. When you have someone who knows you and knows your voice like that, it’s a win/win. Kind of like Janet Jackson with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.
Allison Kugel: Let me back up for a second. When you said Lady Gaga called Dallas Austin and said she wanted a TLC type record, do you mean she wanted an album that had a similar quality to a TLC album? Or she wanted to collaborate on your next album?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: She wanted a song that felt like a TLC record, like the format of how we sing our songs and the messages and that kind of stuff. She was like, “I want a record like TLC.” And so she called the guy. She went to the right person.
Allison Kugel: How do you feel when you hear that Lady Gaga wants a sound that’s similar to yours, or when a young Beyonce, when she was getting started in the music business, was screaming and jumping up and down at the idea of getting to meet TLC? When you hear how impactful you have been to some of the world’s biggest artists, how do you process that?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: Beyonce and Destiny’s Child, they went on tour with us and I didn’t meet them when they were little, I think maybe Tionne did but I really don’t remember. It’s just a good feeling. Michael Jackson had the What About Your Friends dance in Remember The Time. I was totally in love with Michael Jackson, so to see that, I couldn’t breathe! Or Prince saying, “TLC is my favorite group,” and you’re like, “What?!” Bette Midler, as iconic as she is, she covered Waterfalls, and she said some really sweet words in an interview recently. That is crazy to me! It’s been good on so many levels when anybody says those things about us, because it continues to justify certain things. We’re so happy that we did not go against what we really wanted to do or say. Sometimes those things got us in trouble, but I think the majority of the time it worked for us. The fact that it inspired people or caught their attention just means everything.
Allison Kugel: Better to get in trouble for being yourself than to go through life disingenuous.
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: Yes, exactly!
Allison Kugel: Do you ever feel Lisa Lopes’s presence with you when you’re in the recording studio, writing or on stage? Something unexplainable, maybe?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: Not where it was an eerie feeling. I’ve had dreams where in the dream she’s alive. But it’s crazy, because in my dream I know that she passed away but when I see her I’m like, “Oh My God! We have to let everybody know that you’re alive!” It’s like that. I haven’t had one of those dreams in a few months, but that’s how it is when I dream about her. Her passing was definitely one of those times when I hoped she was pranking us. She would do stuff like that. She would just go missing. That was the one time I would have been alright with it if it had been that. Unfortunately, it was not.
Allison Kugel: It’s been all over the news that you are on this season’s The Millionaire Matchmaker with Patti Stanger. Are you into commenting on it right now?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: Oh Lord! (Laughs)
Allison Kugel: I guess my question is, are you looking for love or are you looking for a fairytale?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: I’m definitely looking for love. When it’s real, it is like a fairytale. When it’s real and when it’s healthy and all those things are aligned, to me that is a real life fairytale. I don’t mean a fairytale in the way you’re thinking, because that really does not exist. Everything that I want in a relationship or that I need and require from a man, I also bring to the table. I exist so he has to exist, right? Will I meet him in this lifetime? I don’t know. He might be in another country trying to make some other relationship work (laughs).
Allison Kugel: Do you believe you have a soul mate out there?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: I believe we have many soul mates. I think you may have a soul mate that works for a certain time in your life and then you grow apart. It doesn’t mean that you’re not soul mates anymore. It just means that your time with that person is up. The soul mate that you can be with for the rest of your life, it’s rare for many of us to meet that person. I was very, very, very hesitant about doing the show, and the only reason I did it is because I truly wanted to meet someone. I’m not gonna do the online dating…
Allison Kugel: You can’t do online dating Chilli, you would create chaos!
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: (Laughs) Yeah, I can’t do that one. With The Millionaire Matchmaker, I thought, “You never know.” You could meet the person at a gas station. You just never know when or how that person is going to walk into your life. I was being adventurous, which is something rare for me to do.
Allison Kugel: When is the much anticipated fifth TLC album coming out?
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas: I know, it is well overdue. We’re going to talk about this really soon. We have a lot of information we’re about to get out there. We were hoping it would happen a couple weeks ago, but things got changed and it was out of our control. People will get those answers very soon.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
In this personal and eye-opening interview with Nick Cannon, the multi-hyphenate and truly self-made multi-millionaire television personality – actor – musician – deejay – media mogul opens up about transcending his childhood circumstances to become one of the most successful forces in all areas of the entertainment industry. As a teen, armed only with creativity and drive, Cannon was compelled to propel his family out of financial instability. What was initially born out of necessity, flourished into one of the most epic and aspirational success stories of recent Hollywood-lore. Now add dedicated student at Howard University to his resume. Nick Cannon is unstoppable.
Among myriad other projects, Cannon is taking his hit long-running MTV series, Wild ‘N Out, on the road with a twenty-five date North American tour, running from August 16th through October 6th. Cannon and the Wild ‘N Out cast are doubling down on their MTV antics with a live and wilder than ever, uncensured version of the television show that hybrids improv, rap battles and hip hop culture.
In this candid conversation, we go into taking Wild ‘N Out on the road, family, and how he protects his personal space in the storm of celebrity.
Allison Kugel: You’re now taking your hit MTV show Wild ‘N Out on the road with your Nick Cannon Presents Wild ‘N Out Live tour. The show is all about poking fun at others and being able to laugh at yourself. How do you deal with people who take themselves too seriously and have trouble laughing at themselves?
Nick Cannon: I don’t feel I have to necessarily deal with or construct a rapport in that situation. With Wild ‘N Out you know what you’re going to be presented with because that is the theme of the show, not taking yourself too seriously and having a good time. People who may not see it that way, I’d approach it delicately (laughs). But usually, if they are coming on the show they want to be a part of it and they know what it is at this point, because our show has been on for so long. There have been times where people will ask us not to mention certain things, like, “Stay away from this or that,” so we respect that. We always want to be as respectful as possible, especially if there is anything that someone is sensitive about.
Allison Kugel: When it comes to a rap battle or a roast, where do you think the line should be drawn, or is there no line?
Nick Cannon: I believe it’s all about humor. If it’s said in a spirit of humor and it’s supposed to be funny, then nothing’s off limits. If it’s just to be mean or demeaning and disrespectful, no one wants to see someone get bullied; that’s never okay. Our show is all-inclusive and giving an opportunity for everyone to laugh at themselves. If we’re not laughing, we’re crying, right? The idea is to say, “Hey, let’s laugh and joke about our differences, embrace those differences, and make light of it in order to get over it. If it becomes something hurtful, that’s too far, and we’re never looking to do that.
Allison Kugel: Can you recall a specific instance in your life where you were able to use humor to overcome something painful?
Nick Cannon: As broad as it seems… Everything! I do that on a daily basis. Everything from the fact that I was one of the smallest kids in my school, and that I come from a low-income family, living in government housing; all the things that one could get made fun of for at school. I would flip it and make the joke before the bully could make the joke. I always had to deal with being the smallest kid in class, but I would tell everybody that although I was the smallest kid, I had the biggest mouth! Taking that perspective helped to build my confidence up at an early age. On a daily basis, if something is bothering me, I’ll probably be the first one to joke about it.
Allison Kugel: Where did the confidence come from to tackle so many different things from comedy to music to acting to deejaying, and being a successful businessman?
Nick Cannon: It most definitely came from my father and my grandfather. They’re strong alpha-type males. My father was in the world of ministry, and my grandfather was a tough in the streets type of guy. When you come from a big presence like those two, and even with a last name like Cannon (laughs), there’s a lot in a name. Even though my father wasn’t there all the time, it was his presence when I did get a chance to be around him. There was a strong presence and a strong confidence to him.
Allison Kugel: Did he and your grandfather actively instill lessons in you by way of conversation, or was it simply learned by osmosis?
Nick Cannon: All the time! When you come from a line of preachers, there were always motivational speeches, sermons, and bible verses; and even models [of behavior] to live by. I was told since I was a baby that I was more than a conqueror, that I could do anything if I put my mind to it. So, as a kid, I probably had that idea inside of me that the average kid didn’t have.
Allison Kugel: At what age was your spiritual awakening where you started asking some bigger questions, like, “Who am I beyond what I do for a living, and the personality of Nick Cannon the world knows me by?” or “What am I here to give to the world?”
Nick Cannon: It’s funny, but even as a young guy I was always intrigued by that, because I grew up in an environment where I was exposed to religion and spirituality at a very young age. It made me ask questions, and then when I didn’t get the answers that I wanted, I started looking within and doing my own research rather than following the flock. I would say this was as early as my adolescent years. Obviously, we grow daily, but it was in my early adulthood that I started to realize that I was in control of my own destiny, that I had to make my mark, and my true purpose had to be implemented. This was based off my own sense of spirituality.
Allison Kugel: And tell me if this is accurate, because you never know when you read things, but you began doing stand-up comedy at the age of fifteen?
Nick Cannon: That’s when I started doing stand-up professionally. The first time I was ever on stage, I was eleven. It began as just churches and talent shows. But professionally, I became a regular in the comedy clubs when I was about fifteen.
Allison Kugel: And by seventeen you were writing for and starring on the Nickelodeon comedy series, All That. Was there a drive in you to financially rescue your family?
Nick Cannon: Yes, that was the main goal. With Nickelodeon, I was making five hundred dollars a week, and that was everything at that time; I thought I was rich. I was now able to help put gas in [my parents’] car to make trips up to LA. I could buy food. I could buy an outfit and pay my mom’s rent. That was a dream come true. It was always that idea of wanting to provide for my mother, and for others in the family. The more I began to work, the more I was able to do that.
Allison Kugel: I know you’re currently a college student at Howard University, which is amazing. Did you earn your bachelor’s degree yet?
Nick Cannon: Not yet. I’m in my junior year.
Allison Kugel: You’ve said you’d like to go on to get your PhD. Do you know what you’d like to get your PhD in? And how do you plan to use that degree, or is it just to have as an accomplishment?
Nick Cannon: I’d like to do more work in the community, and I’ll probably become a professor. People are always like, “Man, when are you going to write a book?” I’m not ready to write a book, because it would just be one of those celebrity memoirs, which is fine, but I feel that I have so much more to offer than just to tell people my biography. I feel like once I develop the skills that I’m researching and accomplishing with academia, then I’ll really have something to say. At this point, I’m gathering a wealth of knowledge so that when it is time to spit it back out, it’s valid in a strong way.
Allison Kugel: Professor Cannon! What would you like to teach one day as a professor?
Nick Cannon: Right now, I’m studying Criminology, but I’m also studying in the school of Divinity; and I’m in the school of Communications. Obviously, I’m in the field of Communications. I consider myself somewhat of an expert on the media (laughs) and [media] content, so you never know. I feel that if I can put all those things together, whether it’s Sociology, Criminology, these are the things that are prevalent to me at the moment.
Allison Kugel: You appear to be inexhaustible. Does celebrity ever exhaust you?
Nick Cannon: No, not really, because I don’t really look at it like that. To me, all that stuff is “the matrix,” and not real life. So, I’m tireless when dealing with it. When you come into the matrix, it’s not your real emotions, it’s not your energy. It’s the façade and what people want to see, and the fodder. The things I get exhausted by are real life. Things like media and celebrity, that stuff doesn’t really affect my real and true life. If it should make its way into the actual core and to my family, I would deal with it in a manner where we would find the truth in it and handle it from that point so that it never really gets out of hand.
Allison Kugel: At a Nickelodeon Kids Choice Awards from a couple of years back, you and Mariah were walking the red carpet with the two kids and there were a million people screaming and camera flashes going off. At one point the camera flashes were irritating Moroccan’s (Nick and Mariah Carey’s seven-year-old son) eyes and he was rubbing his eyes and looking away. Do your kids know what’s going on? Do they know who you are, and why there’s so much chaos that surrounds you at these events?
Nick Cannon: Yeah, my kids are well versed in what’s going on, and they embrace it and love it to a point where they’re excited to put on the outfits that match. They’re excited to go down the red carpet. At times, just like any kid, they appear to be bashful or annoyed, because that’s what seven-year-olds do (laughs), but at no point is it ever an issue. If they don’t want to go somewhere or don’t want to do something, it’s never forced upon them. I think it’s in their DNA, because they love it and they embrace it.
Allison Kugel: Who has been your greatest mentor in the entertainment industry?
Nick Cannon: The person I’ve connected with the most, who has taught me the most and established so much for me in this business was probably Will Smith. I wouldn’t be where I am today if it wasn’t for that guy. His hands-on approach and being a big brother and a friend early on in my career was everything. He gave me my first record deal, he gave me my first television deal, and it’s the way he leads by example. Will is the most successful, nicest, most inspiring person you’d ever want to meet.
Allison Kugel: Let’s go back to this Wild ‘N Out Live tour. Are you going to be on stage at every stop on the tour, and how will it surpass watching Wild ‘N Out on MTV?
Nick Cannon: At every stop on the tour, I’ll be hosting and conducting the entire show! This live show is going to be much more raw. It’s giving you the experience you see on TV, times ten. You’ll be watching it with the energy of being in a full arena, and we’re bringing whatever city we’re in to life. We’re bringing the famous rappers and it’s a full concert. We’re bringing your favorite cast members and you’re getting a chance to hear their stand-up and laugh. It’s way more powerful, because there’s no standards and practices like on TV, and there’s no commercial breaks. It’s just right there for an hour and a half; pure laughter and music and hip hop, and you get to see your favorite Wild ‘N Out games as well. It’s also super interactive with the audience. And surprise guests will be popping in and out the whole time at every stop on the tour.
Allison Kugel: When you’re alone in quiet moments, no cell phone or television, what kinds of thoughts dominate your mind in those quiet times?
Nick Cannon: I’m still; I’m quiet. When I do have those alone times, I allow my spirit to be still. For me, that’s not really a thinking time, because I’m always working and thinking and planning. When I do get that alone time, it’s about allowing myself to just… BE. I go within and meditate and listen.
Allison Kugel: What do you see as your spiritual mission here on this earth, and how is it expressed in all that you do?
Nick Cannon: To attempt to bring joy, and to bring joy in a way where my legacy will be, “That was somebody who made a lot of people smile.” Whether it’s through entertainment, whether it’s through philanthropy, or with family, the goal is to bring joy to as many [people] as possible and leave my mark by doing that.
Allison Kugel: And what do you think you are here to learn?
Nick Cannon: To learn how to do those things through the examples that were laid before me. How to implement joy and happiness in my own life, and how to express it to others.
Photo Credits: Nick Cannon, MTV, AEG Presents
Tickets for Nick Cannon Presents Wild ‘N Out Live! 25-date North American tour are available through ticketmaster or visit axs.com for a complete list of tour dates and cities. Visit NickCannon.com to keep up with news and upcoming events. Season 11 of the television show Wild ‘N Out is airing on MTV.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist and author of the book, Journaling Fame: a memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.
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By Allison Kugel
With an acting career spanning four decades and multiple awards and nominations, Regina King has effortlessly embodied countless memorable characters across the big and small screens.
From thought provoking films like Boyz n the Hood, Poetic Justice, Jerry Maguire and Ray; to lighter fare like the Legally Blonde and Miss Congeniality franchises, Regina King brings a special sparkle to every role she’s tackled. On the small screen, King’s presence in past television series like Southland, The Boondocks, The Leftovers, Shameless, and her Emmy- winning turn in American Crime, have highlighted some of the more significant social issues of our time, both with ironic humor and with poignant drama. Wherever art is imitating life in a significant way, Regina King has been tapped to play a pivotal role in the project.
What audiences may not know is that King is also an accomplished television director, with a growing resume of credits including smash hit television shows from Scandal and Greenleaf to The Good Doctor and This Is Us.
Her most recent Emmy-nominated performance as Latrice Butler, grieving mother of a teenage son who is the victim of a death by auto, hit and run by a group of Jersey City police officers, is a true tour de force and a defining role in a long and treasured career.
Allison Kugel: What drew you to playing Latrice Butler in Seven Seconds?
Regina King: I was actually drawn to the role of [prosecutor] KJ Harper (played by Clare-Hope Ashitey), and [series creator] Veena Sud was sure that she wanted me for the role of Latrice. I liked the pilot script and decided to take that dive into the emotional pool.
Allison Kugel: You play the mother of a teenage boy who is killed by a police officer. What was your creative process in tackling such an intense role?
Regina King: Being a mother myself, and the mother of a black young man, there are certain fears you have that are unique to having a black child in America. You have fears as a parent when your kids are growing up, because you can’t control everything. But there are those experiences that are specific to black children that are not the same for others. You experience a bit of it, yourself, as a child growing up in America. Unfortunately, it’s our culture and something you grow up with. You then carry that perspective with you throughout your life. So, I had that going into this role. I also spoke to a mother whose son was murdered by a police officer. Hearing her pain up close and personal, and her feeling safe enough to share it with me, I would say that combination of things was how Latrice was birthed into Seven Seconds.
Allison Kugel: Is the story a fictional account or based on true events?
Regina King: It was based on the truth as far as the regard for black American kids and the law, and how they are regarded in America. That part of it is true, of course. So many examples have had similar outcomes to this story, but it was not taken from one specific person’s story.
Allison Kugel: While you were shooting Seven Seconds, did you think about the parents of Trayvon Martin, Philando Castile, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice and so many young men who’ve lost their lives in similar circumstances? And did you feel a responsibility to reflect these parents’ pain in your performance?
Regina King: There was a responsibility to accurately portray their pain, their lives, and their stories, absolutely.
Allison Kugel: Do you think a series like Seven Seconds has the power to impact hearts and minds for change, or to simply reflect what is going on in society?
Regina King: I think both. What’s reflective for me is not reflective for you. Seeing it in a television show or in a movie creates an opportunity for each of us to see the other’s perspective. I feel that the series American Crime (the ABC series for which King won an Emmy) was very similar in that way.
Allison Kugel: Do you take a role like this home with you?
Regina King: I tried not to take it home with me. But again, a bit of this lives with you. It is the narrative of a part of the fabric of what America is. Unfortunately, you are always living it. It took a lot out of me; I’ll be honest. It was the closest to an experiential role I’ve ever had. I’ve known people who have been victims of police brutality, but no one who was closer than a friend or a distant family member. Because it was a friend or a distant family member, I wasn’t with them in their day-to-day struggle of what that experience brings. You go through life hoping that you never personally have an experience like that, but you know that the odds are greater than not that you will, because of who you are. It’s crazy to even say this, but you feel blessed or lucky that your child has made it to twenty-two (King is referring to her 22-year-old son, Ian).
Allison Kugel: What is so remarkably upsetting about your statement is that even if you are regarded by society as successful, you are thanking God that your son has made it to the age of twenty-two.
Regina King: Made it to twenty-two without having a criminal record, and without having an experience with the police where you may not survive; you may not come home. Unfortunately, that is something you feel gratitude for. He has had an experience with the police pulling him over, and him having to sit down on the curb. He was let go after they ran his license plate and his ID. He was pulled over for being nineteen and driving his girlfriend home. That’s not a normal reason to be pulled over.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your most recent Emmy nomination for Seven Seconds. Now that you have an Emmy win from 2015’s American Crime, is the pressure off somewhat for this upcoming ceremony, or are the nervous butterflies still there? And what’s the feeling in your body when you’re sitting there listening to the names of the nominees being called out?
Regina King: All three times being nominated felt different. But there is nothing like the first anything, right? It’s totally surreal. The second time is kind of like, “Nah-uh, really?! How did I find a hundred-dollar bill again in the exact same place?!” It’s one of those feelings. Not to be frivolous about it, but it’s like, what are the odds?
Allison Kugel: I don’t think it’s a luck thing. You really are such a gifted actor, and your performance in Seven Seconds was a tour de force.
Regina King: Well, I mean, what are the odds of walking by that same corner again and finding that same bill?
Allison Kugel: Do you let that stuff, like awards and accolades, or critics, shape you at all? Do you ever find yourself being very conscious of, “What are the critics going to think?” “What are the nominating committees going to think?”
Regina King: First and foremost, I’m focused on doing good work. I’m not thinking, “Ooh, this is gonna get me an Emmy!” (Laughs)
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) There are people like that in your business. You know that, right?
Regina King: I joke, but yes, I know! The first time, I wasn’t even in the Television Academy. Becoming a member of the Television Academy and knowing all that goes into voting, with all the material that’s out there, it’s a lot. Since my last name starts with a “K,” I fall right in the middle of all the names. When you’re voting, and you see all the titles of the shows and the people’s names, first it starts with the Z’s and then it goes all the way to the A’s. Then the next category starts with the A’s and goes all the way to the Z’s, in that same pattern. So, I don’t take it lightly that someone was able to get to “K” for King and get to “S” for Seven Seconds. I don’t take that lightly, that not only did they make it that far, but they made it that far and they watched and stayed. I don’t take that lightly because those are my peers.
Allison Kugel: What do you see as your higher purpose in all that you do, from parenting your son to your work. And what spiritual philosophy do you subscribe to?
Regina King: Overall, just trying to walk in my truth. I recently did a panel talk (Entertainment Weekly’s Women Who Kick Ass Comic Con Panel) and [actress] Chloe Bennet said something that I definitely subscribe to. She said, “At this moment in time I can feel a certain way and say a certain thing, and then in 2022 I might contradict that just because I’m in a different place at that point.” For me, I can only be in my truth right now, in this moment. If I am walking in that truth, if I share an opinion right now about something, in the year 2022 I will not say, “I didn’t say that in 2018.” I would know I said it, because in that moment it was true for me.
Allison Kugel: Right. You would say, that was me then. I saw this beautiful tribute on your Instagram feed to actress Marla Gibbs. Marla gave you your first big job playing her daughter on the show 227, when you were fourteen years old. You thanked her for all that she did for you as a mentor. You say, among many other things, “She taught me how to be a professional.” I want to ask you about some other influential people you’ve worked with over the years, and what your takeaway was from working with these people. Let’s start with Tupac Shakur, who you worked with in 1993’s Poetic Justice.
Regina King: I would say he’s a man that walked in his truth. Man, did he ever. That would be the biggest takeaway, in that he was just unapologetic, and it was beautiful.
Allison Kugel: And working with Tom Cruise in 1996’s Jerry Maguire?
Regina King: An example of a consummate professional. If you hear anybody say that they don’t like that guy, hmmm, I don’t know. I’d have to go back and look in the books on that person. He’s a good guy, and he is a professional. He is that same example of what Marla [Gibbs] was, and I saw from him that it exists when you’re on that mega level.
Allison Kugel: And working with Jamie Foxx in 2004’s Ray?
Regina King: Jamie is super talented. The first thing that came to my mind when you said “Jamie,” is that he’s a caring guy. He takes great care with things that he does, and with the people that he works with. That’s the reason why he’s so good at embodying a character, because he takes care with the details.
Allison Kugel: I also came across a picture you posted with your son. You were waiting in line together to vote in the June primaries, and it was his first time voting. Finish this sentence for me: “I hope that in my son’s lifetime…”
Regina King: The first thing that came to my mind is that he wants to have children, but he goes back and forth between asking if it’s irresponsible to bring children into this world. And I see where he is coming from with that.
Allison Kugel: Tell him that you have great faith in the next generation to lift the consciousness of this planet.
Regina King: Oh, I tell him that all the time, that I have great faith in him and his generation. Literally, from year to year with the conversations that we have, it goes from, “When I have kids,” to, “Man, I don’t know if I want to bring a kid into all this.” Just because of certain things that happen in the world. It’s the same reason you don’t want to turn on the news half the time.
Allison Kugel: If there’s one thing the kids from Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida showed me, it’s that with the younger generations coming up there is a different level of consciousness, and it gives me great hope.
Regina King: What I love is that they’re able to articulate their passion in a way that is open. Whereas, I feel like a lot of our generation, we weren’t able to articulate our anger as effectively. There is a maturity present with the younger generation, but they still have that passion. It makes me more confident in what they can accomplish.
Catch Regina King’s Emmy-nominated performance in the limited series, Seven Seconds, streaming now on Netflix. Follow her on Instagram @iamreginaking and on Twitter @reginaking.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment columnist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and at AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
Rob Reiner may have entered show business as an industry legacy, following in the footsteps of his famous father, legendary comedic writer and performer, Carl Reiner. But he quickly paved his own path with an artistic and social point of view all his own. After paying his dues with bit parts and writing gigs on various television series throughout the 1960s, Reiner got his big break in 1972, when Norman Lear cast him as Michael ‘Meathead’ Stivic, the outspoken, liberal, counterculture son-in-law of Archie Bunker on the now culturally iconic television series, All In The Family.
As the constant foil to Archie’s blue-collar, xenophobic sensibilities, Michael Stivic represented the birth of the 1970s liberal progressive. It was a stark contrast to a previous generations’ more conservative ideals. The show was an instant classic as it touched on racism, immigration, gender, politics, women’s liberation and a changing of the guard of American ideas and values. In our current political climate, the show remains relevant, even today.
Reiner then leveraged his television notoriety into a directing and producing career, forming his company, Castle Rock Entertainment in 1987, and going on to produce hit films like When Harry Met Sally, Misery, City Slickers, A Few Good Men, The Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile, Miss Congeniality and The Bucket List to pull just a handful of his credits.
Always an outspoken politico (his Twitter feed holds nothing back) and advocate for liberal and democratic values, Rob Reiner get more political with his upcoming film, Shock and Awe, which he produced, directed and stars in. It’s based on the true story of a team of daring investigative journalists who went against the grain in 2003, and broke the story that there were, in fact, no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. To this day, they are known as “the reporting team that got Iraq right” when other media outlets toed the party line in support of the Bush-Cheney WMD assertion as America’s impetus for invading Iraq on March 20, 2003 in a military operation known as, of course, Shock and Awe.
Allison Kugel: Your film, Shock and Awe, is about a team of journalists who debunk the Bush-Cheney administration’s public assertion that weapons of mass destruction were behind our government’s decision to go to war with Iraq in 2003. What is your personal theory about the connection between the events of 9/11 and the decision to go to war with Iraq?
Rob Reiner: If you look at the “Project for the New American Century,” which was written long before 9/11, by a neo-conservative think tank, it was a paper outlining what they felt should be done with America’s position in the world after the fall of The Berlin Wall, when we emerged as the only remaining super power in the world. The question was, what to do with that power and what was the best way to export democracy throughout the world. They spoke specifically about going into Iraq as a way of establishing a western-style democracy, aside from Israel, in the Middle East. The thought was, that it would spread democracy throughout that region, and ultimately wind up protecting Israel. When 9/11 happened, the talk in Washington was already about going to Iraq; this was the day after 9/11. They were already planning to go to Iraq, but they knew they had to go to Afghanistan first because that’s from where the attacks came; the Taliban supported Al-Qaeda. But they’d already made the plans to go to Iraq before that.
Allison Kugel: Aside from the perspective of the real journalists you’re portraying, the film shows a human element with a family whose son gets deployed to Iraq. Do you think our government sees children of lower income families as expendable in their pursuit of war for profit?
Rob Reiner: They certainly go to war for profit, there’s no question. Whether or not they feel people who don’t have financial privilege are expendable, I wouldn’t be able to speak to that. But President Eisenhower did talk about the military-industrial complex, and ever since the Second World War, we’ve been engaged in all kinds of military adventures that have been less than successful. Vietnam and Iraq are the two that come to mind. We didn’t have a standing army before World War II, and then we kept one and the question became, “What do you do with that standing army?” In the film, Tommy Lee Jones’ character, Joe Galloway, says, “When the government fucks up, the soldiers pay the price.”
Allison Kugel: You are a staunch defender of a free press as a pillar of our democracy. We have a for profit media that is owned by corporate interests. How can we possibly have the kind of free press you speak of when there are corporate interests backing our media outlets?
Rob Reiner: You make a very good point. Up until 1968 the news was a loss leader for the three networks; ABC, NBC and CBS. You put it on the air and you didn’t expect to make money. It was something they did as a public service. It was a big deal when Walter Cronkite moved from fifteen minutes in the evening to a half hour. In 1968 60 Minutes came along and it was a very successful show, and it started making money. For the first time, networks saw that the news could be a profit center. Like you say, as these media outlets have grown and become a part of much bigger corporate conglomerates, you’re right, it’s very tough. If you talk to ABC, CBS and NBC, they’d tell you that their journalists are independent and apart from whatever corporate interests there are, and if there is a conflict they would mention it in their reporting. But it’s hard to separate those things sometimes. That’s always going to be an issue, but I would suggest that it’s about striving for the truth. You don’t always necessarily get there, but you’ve got to strive for it. It’s like my character (award-winning journalist, John Walcott) in the film says, “When the government says something, you only have one question to ask: Is it true?”
Allison Kugel: What are your main sources of news these days? Who do you trust?
Rob Reiner: I trust The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, ABC, NBC, CBS; I trust CNN. I don’t trust Fox, and by the way, there are some good people at Fox. Shepard Smith is great, and I had a conversation with him and asked, “How do you stay there?” He said, “They need me there.” Because if they’re even going to have a semblance of being a legitimate news outlet, they have to at least be able to point to someone as reporting the truth. A big chunk of Fox News acts as state run media. We’ve never had that in America. It makes it hard for the mainstream media to try to break through. People who are ingesting that news will never come around, because they’re cemented in their way of thinking by this vast propaganda. It’s classic authoritarian stuff.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about the cast of Shock and Awe. It’s based on real journalists who broke the story that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Warren Strobel and Jonathan Landay, who were with Knight Ridder at the time. Warren Strobel is played by James Marsden and Jonathan Landay is played by Woody Harrelson. What qualities did you look for when you were casting those roles?
Rob Reiner: They’re both brilliantly equipped journalists and both really smart. But Jonathan was a little bit more whacky and had a little more of a quirkiness to him. That’s why I wanted Woody, who is a little bit more playful. And the thing with Warren Strobel is that he did meet his soon-to-be wife (played by Jessica Biel) during that whole time when he was working on these articles. I knew I wanted to have a romantic storyline. I cast James Marsden as Warren, who brings a lot of intelligence to the part, but he also has a romantic quality to him.
Allison Kugel: Tell me about the research you did to prepare to play Knight Ridder’s Washington Bureau Chief, John Walcott.
Rob Reiner: Walcott, Warren Strobel, Jonathan Landay and Joe Calloway were all involved in the writing of the script. They met with us a number of times to go over the script to
make sure it was accurate, and they were around for the filming and totally hands on. There is nothing in the film that they wouldn’t give their stamp of approval for. In fact, my newsroom speech in the film was the speech that John [Walcott] actually gave. It was Jonathan Landay who came up to me and said, “You should put that speech in that John Walcott gave to us.” John Walcott told me the speech and I wrote it down. We put it right in there and shot it that day.
Allison Kugel: I stumbled upon an interesting statistic that blew my mind. According to a 2018 Pew Research Center survey, 43% of Americans, in 2018, still believe that the Iraq war was a good idea.
Rob Reiner: (Laughs) How was it a good idea?
Allison Kugel: Forty-three percent. That’s a lot of people. How do you reach those people with this film, Shock and Awe, and get them to watch it with an open mind?
Rob Reiner: In terms of marketing, I don’t know how you reach people like that; that’s not my expertise. What I can say is that whether you think it was a good idea or not, you have to agree that sending people off to their deaths based on a lie is not a good idea. We killed and wounded about thirty-eight thousand [Americans], and over a million Iraqis were killed or wounded. Two trillion dollars of American [money] was spent on that [war], with it going up over the years. I would argue that it’s never good to go to war based on a lie even if the results are something you think are positive. We came out of it and then wound up having to fight ISIS on top of it all.
Allison Kugel: Had social media been around leading up to both the Vietnam and the Iraq Wars, how do you think today’s social media landscape would have impacted the narrative?
Rob Reiner: In the case of the Iraq war, it would have benefited the administration even more. The problem we had with those of us who thought we shouldn’t be going there is, just like the four guys at Knight Ridder, we were bucking the zeitgeist of patriotism that came out of 9/11. If (former Vice President, Dick) Cheney wanted to spread the false narrative that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, that the aluminum tubes could be used to enrich uranium (In the weeks leading up to the [Iraq] war, senior administration officials repeatedly stated that Iraq had attempted to acquire more than 100,000 high strength aluminum tubes for gas centrifuges to be used for enriching uranium. Highly enriched uranium is one of the two materials that can be used to make nuclear weapons/https://www.ucsusa.org) and that he was developing WMDs, if Dick Cheney had had access to social media, that would make their case even stronger and people would be feeling really unpatriotic if they went against it.
Allison Kugel: And the Vietnam War?
Rob Reiner: The Vietnam War might have been different because at that time there was a fervor of anti-communism. People were worried about communism and the domino theory, and all of that. It might have cut both ways on that one. What we have found is that social media makes it very tough for people to figure out what’s true and what’s not. The Russians have been playing these active measures games and these misinformation campaign games for a long time. We do it too, but it gets weaponized when you talk about social media. It’s very hard to overcome lies. That’s why they say, “A lie makes its way five times around the world before the truth gets its pants on.”
Allison Kugel: What was the atmosphere on set? Did the actors get into political conversations?
Rob Reiner: Sure. Not only were we making this film, but we were filming during the 2016 presidential campaign, so there was a lot of talk about what was going on. I don’t think the mainstream press thought [President Trump] was going to get the nomination, and I don’t think they thought he was going to win. So, I don’t think they vetted him the way they vetted Hillary Clinton. That was the biggest problem. A lot of press will tell you that they really didn’t dig deep enough into [Trump].
Allison Kugel: Do you think it’s okay for the powers that be to have worked behind the scenes to attempt to sabotage President Trump’s campaign and to bolster Hillary Clinton’s campaign, if they thought it would serve the greater good of the country?
Rob Reiner: I don’t think they should do that for the sake of doing that. They should only bring out what he really is. I don’t know what you mean by sabotage. How can you sabotage a campaign unless you’re telling lies about the guy?
Allison Kugel: Let me re-structure the question in a slightly different direction. Do you think it was okay for the Democratic party to use certain tactics to attempt to sway the nomination in Hillary Clinton’s favor, over Bernie Sanders, during the 2016 primary race if they felt she was the stronger candidate and that pushing her into the Democratic nomination was for the greater good?
Rob Reiner: Now you’re talking about a political party, and political maneuverings, and what political parties do to have electoral success. That’s different than saying could the press have attempted to sabotage one candidate over another.
Allison Kugel: Similar moral and ethical quandary, but I’m now stating it from a different position. The question is essentially, do you feel it’s okay to intercept the purity of our democratic election process to serve a perceived greater good?
Rob Reiner: No, I don’t think it is. And by the way, I think Hillary would have won the nomination anyway. They did bring out the fact that Debbie Wasserman Schultz wasn’t favoring Hillary Clinton. In all fairness, Bernie Sanders wasn’t a Democrat, and they were trying to nominate a Democrat. But I don’t think the process should ever be compromised. I can tell you that if the press spent as much time talking about a man running for president who had basically de-frauded people out of their life savings as much as they did about Hillary Clinton’s emails, there’s no way he would have become president. There is no way America would elect a guy who is a criminal who defrauds people out of their life savings. But you only heard about that one time.
Allison Kugel: There’s no question that the media chose to feed the beast of sensationalism when it came to President Trump, and I do believe they regret that approach.
Rob Reiner: I’m sure they do; just like The New York Times printed an apology about the Iraq war. It’s the job of the media to vet these candidates. And they didn’t do that with Trump. They spent a lot of time on the Access Hollywood tape. Who the hell cares about that? They already impeached a guy who had bad sexual proclivities. And who cares? If a guy is a criminal and he steals money from people, and he then takes other people’s money to pay them off, gee whiz!
Allison Kugel: In the 1970s, Norman Lear created All In The Family, and the iconic character of Archie Bunker, who has been referred to as “a lovable bigot.” That character was the original famous xenophobe, if you will. You, of course, played his liberal son-in-law, Mike ‘Meathead’ Stivic. How do you think Archie Bunker would have played with today’s television audience?
Rob Reiner: I think it would have played well. We’re a little bit more PC now. I don’t think you can say some of the things we said. But the thing about the ‘Archie’ character was that we always made fun of him on the show. It was a satire, and any time his bigotry and racism were on display, we would always knock it down and refute it. We’d always shine a light on the ignorance of it. So, we made fun of it. I think that’s the way you could do it, as long as people know that you’re not saying it’s a good thing.
Allison Kugel: How has your father, Carl Reiner, molded your political and social ideals over the years?
Rob Reiner: It’s more so coming from my mother than my father. Although my father is politically active, he’ll even tell you that his wife (the late Estelle Reiner) was educating him about political ideas. She was more of a politically thoughtful person, and then my dad got involved in it too. He marched in the Moratorium to End the War in Vietnam, and you can see him on Twitter. Every night he goes after Trump.
Allison Kugel: You don’t mince words on Twitter either. You really go after Trump. After you post a tweet, do you look at your comments at all?
Rob Reiner: I used to in the beginning, but now I’ve got almost half a million followers and there are just so many of them, and they’re so ruthless. They say all these horrible things. “You’re a libtard, you’re a commie [sic].” I don’t really look at it and I don’t really care what they have to say, because I know who this guy is (referring to President Trump). He’s a mentally ill guy who’s got major emotional problems that he tries to fill by aggrandizing himself in a narcissistic way. He admires autocrats because I think he has autocratic envy. I think [Trump] would love to be Vladimir Putin; anything to have a government where every business has to run through him, and he gets a cut of everything. He stokes fear and he’s a racist. We’ve seen people like this before, but it’s just amazing that it happened in this country.
Allison Kugel: News today seems to be fear-driven. A lot of Americans have taken to avoiding the news. How do you think people ought to strike a balance between staying informed and not succumbing to fear?
Rob Reiner: I think it requires doing some work. There are real fears and real problems. And then there are created problems that are blown up. You have to be able to understand the difference and recognize an actual threat, and what is a perceived or trumped up threat. The only way to know the difference is to do some reading. For example, if you are only going to read one side, then you are going to think that MS-13 (and international criminal gang) is streaming across the border into America. But if you do your homework you’ll find out that MS-13, although a violent gang, is not streaming across the border. It’s a homegrown group and illegal immigration is way down from where it was. That’s not to say you shouldn’t have an immigration policy. You need an immigration policy, but that’s not a real threat. It is a real problem that children are taken away from their mothers and fathers.
Allison Kugel: What do you hope people get out of your film, Shock and Awe?
Rob Reiner: That we need a free and independent press, a vigilant press, to hold power accountable so that we won’t go to war based on lies. The second thing is to realize what the cost is of not having a free and independent press. What will the cost be? Not only people’s quality of life and lost lives, but the erosion of our democracy.
Photo Credits: Courtesy of Castle Rock Entertainment, Vertical Entertainment
Shock and Awe, starring Rob Reiner, Woody Harrelson, James Marsden, Tommy Lee Jones and Jessica Biel, opens in wide theatrical release on Friday, July 13, 2018.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and visit AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
Real Housewife of Beverly Hills, Paris Hilton and Nicky Hilton Rothschild’s aunt; Kyle Richards has emerged as a Hollywood force as Executive Producer of the new hit television series, American Woman, loosely based on the colorful life of her late mother, Kathleen Richards.
Kyle Richards, along with her sisters, Kathy Hilton and fellow Real Housewife Kim Richards, were raised in Bel Air, California, by Kathleen Richards. Kathleen was a headstrong, ambitious divorcee who didn’t quite fit with her times. In the 1970s Kathleen found herself having to support her three girls and their upper crust West Los Angeles lifestyle. She began managing her daughters, ushering all three into modeling and acting careers, as Kyle puts it, “before I could even read.”
From vintage movie and television credits including Little House on the Prairie, Nanny and the Professor, Escape to Witch Mountain, Fantasy Island and Police Story, the girls were very much the working Hollywood family, and mom Kathleen was the original Hollywood “Momager,” a title now associated with Keeping Up with the Kardashians matriarch, Kris Jenner.
Cut to 2018, with the family’s pop culture rise, Kyle Richards was primed and ready to tell the story of her unconventional upbringing and the unwavering faith and determination of her late mother, Kathleen Richards.
The new hit television series, American Woman, created and co-executive produced by Kyle, is inspired by her mom Kathleen’s journey from the quintessential kept 1970s Bel Air housewife who couldn’t balance a checkbook, to single mom crushing it at a time when women had to fight to be heard and taken seriously.
American Woman, starring Alicia Silverstone, Mena Suvari, and Jennifer Bartels, offers a bold and layered glimpse into the glamour and social volatility of post-hippie, 1970s Los Angeles, when the women’s liberation movement was just taking root.
Kyle Richards and I sat down to discuss her childhood, the greatest lessons she learned from her mom, how she’s raising her four daughters and this new chapter in her life as creator and co-executive producer of one of the most talked about new series on television.
Allison Kugel: Your new television show, American Woman, is inspired by your mom’s life. What is the greatest lesson your mom taught you?
Kyle Richards: She would always tell me, “If you want something, put it out there and you’ll make it happen.” She would tell me that you have to plant the seeds. When you’re a kid you don’t really understand what that means. Now I realize that everything I was doing my whole life was planting the seeds for what I’m doing now. She told me I could do anything I wanted to if I set my mind to it, and to never take my eye off the ball.
Allison Kugel: She could have been in The Secret. She was ahead of her time.
Kyle Richards: (Laughs) Exactly! That’s very true. I studied Kabbalah which teaches similar [tenets], and I was like, “That’s what my mom was talking about!”
Allison Kugel: If she were still here, what do you think she would have to say about your new show, American Woman, and how she’s portrayed?
Kyle Richards: I think she would be very excited and proud, because she knew this was something I wanted to do, and I made it happen. She would be so proud to see her daughter doing well and fulfilling her dreams.
Allison Kugel: If you could go back in time, would you choose to be a child actor again?
Kyle Richards: Absolutely. I had a very positive experience as a child actor. I worked with incredible people. A lot of the things I did were in a very family-friendly environment. I got to travel and do exciting things I never would have been able to do if I were a regular child (laughs) living a normal life. I grew up in Bel Air, but obviously my friends weren’t actors. They went to school every day, they went to camp, and did all of those normal things. I didn’t get to do those things, but I was doing other interesting things and traveling. When we filmed Little House on the Prairie, we were filming out in Simi Valley and riding horses and playing in the streams and catching ducks. It was just like going to camp sometimes.
Allison Kugel: How did you and your sisters, Kathy [Hilton] and Kim [Richards], all become working child actors?
Kyle Richards: My mom studied at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York and always wanted to be an actress, but she got married and had her kids young. My sister Kathy was a really beautiful baby, and my mom would get stopped on the streets of New York and asked for her daughter to model. Kathy started doing these modeling things and then it turned into commercials. Then Kim was born, and she started doing commercials. In Kim’s first commercial, she was six months old doing a carpet commercial, crawling around on the carpet. When my dad moved to Los Angeles for business, they were in Hollywood, so they continued on that path. Then when I was born, it was during the time when Kim was on Nanny and the Professor.
Allison Kugel: Did you want to follow in your sisters’ footsteps?
Kyle Richards: I was actually very, very shy. My mom told me at the time, that it was to help me get rid of my shyness. But she also felt that since her other two other daughters were doing this, she didn’t want me to feel left out. I was scared when I was little, because I was really painfully shy. At my first audition, the guy had on a white jacket, so at the time I thought I was going to a doctor (laughs) and I was so little, so I would get really scared. I am glad she did that, because it did help me overcome my shyness. I still do have that side to me that people don’t know about.
Allison Kugel: You had an unconventional upbringing, as is reflected on this show. What kind of impact did your childhood experience have on what you looked for in a husband and family as an adult?
Kyle Richards: I grew up in a house filled with women. My mom, my grandmother, my sisters, my mom’s friends… and my sister Kathy had these two best friends that basically lived at our house. It was like a big sorority house. There was a lot of fun in our house, but then I would go to my friends’ houses and I would see the dad coming home from work and the mom making dinner in the kitchen. I thought, “Oh, those are like the people on TV. Those are fake people.”
But I always really admired that, and it was something that I always wanted to have. I didn’t know if I would be able to have that because my mom had been divorced a number of times.
Allison Kugel: Is that why you chose to marry so young with your first marriage?
Kyle Richards: Yes. Having that was very important to me and so I got married very young (to first husband, Guraish Aldjufrie). Being a mom came very naturally to me, but being a wife is very hard when you’re that young. I know a lot of people would say that being a mom is hard too, but being a mom was very easy for me. It was the wife part that wasn’t so easy. Then when I met Mauricio (Umansky, Richards’ husband of twenty-two years) I was fortunate enough to find someone that I felt was my soulmate. I’ve always made our relationship and our marriage a priority because it’s so important to me to have what I didn’t have growing up, and for my children to have what I didn’t have growing up.
Allison Kugel: Did you have input into the casting of Alicia Silverstone, who plays the character inspired by your mom?
Kyle Richards: Absolutely. I was involved with every aspect of the show. When I originally met with Alicia, my thought was that the actress we cast had to be a natural redhead. My mom was a redhead and it was a big part of her personality. Alicia loved the script and I thought, “Okay, we’ll have a meeting,” because I love Alicia Silverstone! Who doesn’t love Alicia Silverstone? The second I met her, and I saw how inspired she was to dive into this role, or as Alicia describes it, “this juicy part,” I really felt she was the person to take on the challenge of portraying my mom.
Allison Kugel: What was your motivation for signing onto The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills in 2010? What did you hope would come from it?
Kyle Richards: [American Woman] was not the goal (laughs). I didn’t realize what the Housewives [franchise] really was when I started doing it. I didn’t understand the opportunities that would come my way. I was acting my whole life, and then I had pretty much stepped aside from that to raise my children. When The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills came up, I looked at it as just another gig. I didn’t know what it was like to do a reality television show, other than seeing my niece Paris [Hilton] do it. I thought, “This is great because it’s reality and my kids can be with me.” I had no game plan at all. In the first few seasons I wasn’t selling anything; I had no business. I was a stay at home mom, and I loved being a stay at home mom. I always had that feeling of wanting to do other things at some point, but it’s a lot when you have four kids. People would ask me, “What are you going to do?” And I would be like, “What do you mean, what am I going to do?!” My goal in life is to stay at home and bake cookies (laughs).
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) You’d been working in television since childhood, so it made sense to go back to what you knew.
Kyle Richards: I’ve been doing television since before I could even read. The way American Woman happened was through a fan. My friend came to me and said, “I have these fans of yours who would love to meet you. Would you mind doing lunch?” I agreed because he’s a very close friend of mine. They happened to be the producers of Shameless (Showtime). I watched Shameless before we went to lunch, and at lunch they started asking me what my plans were for after Housewives. It wasn’t supposed to be a pitch meeting, but I told them I like to write, particularly about having an unconventional upbringing, and I began sharing some stories with them. Then I got a phone call that John Wells (American Woman’s Executive Producer) wanted to make my mom’s story into a television show.
Allison Kugel: And then you had to pitch it to the network…
Kyle Richards: Right. Once I had my production company, which is the best of the best, we had to go in and pitch the network. I had no idea how pitching works. I didn’t know if I was supposed to bring my own music and act things out (laughs). Next thing you know we’re making a TV show.
Allison Kugel: What parts of Alicia Silverstone’s portrayal of your mom are accurate and which parts did they take some creative license?
Kyle Richards: In American Woman, they show her working at The May Company, and with that part the writers took creative license. My mom was our manager growing up, because we were all acting in television. She was a single mom raising us. All of a sudden, she found herself in this big house with no husband. Even though we had this nice house in Bel Air, my mom was very strict. We had to make our own beds; when we got cars we were not allowed to go to the car wash, we each had to wash our own car. My kids now go and get their nails done. I wasn’t allowed to get my nails done. I did my own nails.
Allison Kugel: I think that part is a generational thing, because I didn’t get my first manicure and pedicure until I was in college.
Kyle Richards: Me either. A massage? Are you kidding me? I never had a massage until I was married.
Allison Kugel: Now everyone’s taking their kids for mani-pedis.
Kyle Richards: I know! It’s so funny. We were raised differently. I don’t really talk about that with my sisters so much, but I do tell my kids all the time because I just don’t want that to be lost. It’s a constant conversation in our house.
Allison Kugel: Do you find it a challenge to keep your kids grounded?
Kyle Richards: It is a challenge, and the way I deal with that is through having open conversations. I don’t want to be a broken record with my kids because then they’ll stop listening, but I kind of am sometimes. My husband and I always talk about this. When we were first married we were in a very different position. My oldest would say, “When are we going to get a house?” because we were in a condo. I would explain that we have to make money and save up, and we have to have an extra cushion in the bank. So she would say, “How many cushions do we need?”
Allison Kugel: Enough to cover an entire sectional sofa, kid (laughs).
Kyle Richards: Haha! Yeah, how many more cushions do we need before we can get a house? We were in a two-bedroom condo with three kids. Each of our children had a very different experience. I worry about Portia (Kyle’s youngest of her four daughters) sometimes, so I always talk about these things with her because I want her to appreciate what she has. I went to go see the American Woman billboard on Sunset Blvd. (in Los Angeles), and I took Portia with me. I drove up to it and I just started to cry. She said, “Why are you crying mom?” And I said, “You don’t understand. I worked my whole life, and this is a dream of mine. To see this up here is so surreal.” And she said, “I’m so proud of you mom. You worked so hard.” We have these long conversations about how if you want something in life you have to focus on it and put it out there, like my mom used to teach me. Portia is very wise and she’ll say things to me that are well beyond her years, and sometimes I’ll think, “Is that my mother reincarnated?”
Allison Kugel: I often see the same thing in my son, where I’ll think it’s either my grandfather or that my grandfather’s spirit is somehow influencing my son’s character, because they are so much alike.
Kyle Richards: I’m glad I’m not the only one who believes that! There are so many signs all the time. I went to a psychic who said to me, “Your mother wants you to know she really loves the drapes you put in the baby’s room,” and I had just put drapes in Portia’s room. I have signs all the time. Whether it’s Portia saying something to me or other signs that come to me, I know my mother is watching.
Allison Kugel: The backdrop of American Woman is interesting because it takes place in the 1970s, just as the seeds of feminism were starting to take root. It seems that your mom was ahead of her time, in terms of being a feminist more than forty years ago.
Kyle Richards: It’s funny you should say that, because my mom did not like the word “feminist.” It had such a negative connotation at the time. Back then women weren’t supposed to be strong and outspoken. If you were strong and outspoken and had an opinion and a voice, you were a pushy broad. Nowadays it’s somewhat celebrated as empowering for women to be strong. Back then, it just wasn’t like that. She really was a feminist in her own way, but she just didn’t like the word. She was also old fashioned in the sense that she would say that when your husband comes home you want the house to look beautiful, cook dinner and all that. She wanted us to be independent and not need a man. She didn’t like the fact that her generation supposedly needed a man. I hope younger women, including my daughters, who watch this show, will see how far we have come and appreciate who they are and the power they have. In my mother’s generation, that was lost. More importantly, it’s okay to be strong, but it’s also okay to be vulnerable.
Photo Credits: Getty Images, Paramount Network
American Woman, co-executive produced by Kyle Richards, airs Thursdays 10pm EST on Paramount Network.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and visit AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
Hailed as one of the most prolific standup comedians of the past three decades, D.L. Hughley has never been afraid to dig into ethnic stereotypes, economic disparity, relationships, politics… nothing’s off limits. His words are explicit and paint an accurate portrait of societal contradictions and pain in fast forward.
From his legendary standup material and his nationally syndicated radio show, The D.L. Hughley Show, to his upcoming Netflix series, The Fix (a hybrid game show/issues-based panel talk show), D.L.’s platform as an outspoken advocate of civil rights is unconventional and tinged with off-color language. But as he shared with me during our conversation, he believes that to reach people with a heavy message, you’ve got to get them to let their guard down through laughter.
His latest book, How Not To Get Shot: And Other Advice From White People (Out June 26th) pulls no punches and offers no apologies, as Hughley puts forth his satirical and bitingly sarcastic take on racial profiling, police shootings, President Trump, and the advice that white people often give black people on how to adequately assimilate into American society. Nothing is off limits as he covers topics like black names versus white names, dressing black versus dressing white, how white people advise black people to talk to the police, neighborhood profiling, “the race card,” and a host of other hot button, racially charged issues. D.L. goes in.
The book doubles down on D.L.’s already controversial public platform. It is filled with humor, sorrow and irony, and it will make you a bit uncomfortable no matter what side of the fence you are on.
Allison Kugel: Did the motivation to write your latest book, How Not To Get Shot (And Other Advice From White People), come from a place of fear, love, hope, anger…?
D.L. Hughley: I think all those things. Fear, frustration, anger… they all kind of mirror each other. When I was writing this book, I realized that society would never take a good look at itself unless you make it feel good; unless you give them something to make their ears tickle a little bit. My overall thought was to be clear enough where it doesn’t seem trite, and to be satirical enough where people can’t tell if I’m being serious or not. And I needed it to be angry enough to mirror the people who go through these things all the time. Watching people of color being slaughtered at the hands of police is nothing new. I grew up in Los Angeles, so it happened quite often. Everybody always wants to say they want to start this conversation, and this book is my contribution to that conversation.
Allison Kugel: Do you feel safe living in the United States?
D.L. Hughley: I don’t think I ever… black men and safety don’t go together. There are a lot of words that black people use to describe how they feel, but I don’t think “safe” is one of them.
Allison Kugel: What do you tell your kids when they ask if they’re safe?
D.L. Hughley: That we’re going to do the best we can to make sure. I think that America’s never seen a person of color that lost their life where the powers-that-be were compelled to do something about it; where they were actually moved to action. Whether it was Emmett Till or Trayvon Martin, I think they have a certain kind of distance when it comes to black people dying. The first thing they’ll say is, “Well, if you wouldn’t have done this?” or “You shouldn’t have done that.” The impetus for me writing this book was going on Megyn Kelly’s show (Megyn Kelly TODAY). I went on Megyn Kelly’s show and we were going to talk about the police and policing, and she had Mark Fuhrman (disgraced lead detective in the 1995 O.J. Simpson murder trial) on the same show. She didn’t tell me he was going to be on, and he went on before me. They had Mark Fuhrman on to talk about policing. He got fired for lying. He lied so much that he got a murderer off. He got O.J. off! And this is how we start the conversation about policing, and about good police versus bad police? Even other police will tell you that Mark Fuhrman was a bad [cop]. That’s how they decided to start the conversation that day. That’s when I knew I would write this book.
Allison Kugel: You’ve discussed in great detail, your previous affiliation as a gang member with the Bloods in Los Angeles. What was the life lesson from that experience for you? What was the major takeaway?
D.L. Hughley: The takeaway was a level of independence and compassion. One of the things that I always felt bad about when I was growing up was that even when I was in that situation, I knew I wasn’t of that situation. I knew that I didn’t belong there. I knew I would do something else. It taught me to have compassion for people who, for them, that was their natural experience. While I knew that I wasn’t born for that, that [gang] experience was organic to a lot of people. So, it was knowing that I was in that situation and not of it, and to have compassion for the guys who didn’t see any other way to live. When I was eighteen or nineteen years old, stuff got so bad, I tried to get into the Los Angeles Police Academy. I just wanted things to be different. I was reaching at anything to not give into the frustration that was all around me.
Allison Kugel: Do you fear that this book is simply going to preach to the choir rather than reaching a wider demographic of people?
D.L. Hughley: I think that people who have already made up their mind before a question is even asked, they have a certain perspective. But a lot of the book is based on statistics and facts, things that have happened and their outcome. There are always a lot of white people who want to tell you what they would do if they were black, but they can only tell you what they would do if they were black from their current perspective (laughs). They can’t tell you what it’s like. I’m sure that a lot of people who have had positive experiences with the police can’t believe that the police that pull them over are the same policemen that interact with me. They can’t believe it because it’s not their experience. But my hope is that people can at least look at this book and see that things aren’t the same as their own experience. You don’t have to have that experience to know those things do exist.
Allison Kugel: Does fame and money insulate you at all from racial profiling and police harassment?
D.L. Hughley: It didn’t insulate Bill Cosby’s son (the late Ennis Cosby). He was still shot down by violence. It didn’t insulate Tupac when he was shot. There was a member of Earth Wind and Fire who was shot by the Santa Monica Police Department for holding a fireplace holder. I think when you’re black and nobody knows that you’re famous, it doesn’t matter anyway. Before they see anything else, they see that you’re black.
Allison Kugel: There was one page in the book where you ask the reader, “Who can say the “N” word?” and then you answer, “Fucking black people, and that’s it.” Using myself as an example, not only do I not want you to use racial or religious slurs against me as a Jewish person, I have no desire to say them about myself either. Why do you even want to have the right to use the “N” word? Why use it?
D.L. Hughley: I don’t want to have the right. I wish it didn’t exist, but it does so I won’t pretend that it doesn’t. The most annoying thing is that people will blame the use of the “N” word on black people. They’ll say, “Well, if you didn’t use it, then maybe we wouldn’t use it. You use it in hip hop all the time.” That word has been a part of the American lexicon since the early 1700s. Hip hop’s been around since 1975. What came first, the word “nigger” or The Sugarhill Gang? To pretend that black people can stop saying it and then all people will stop feeling that way about us, and that it will go away, is ridiculous. There has never been a word in our lexicon that equates to that word, not one.
Allison Kugel: I’m going to share my perspective at the risk of you getting mad at me…
D.L. Hughley: I won’t get mad at you…
Allison Kugel: To give my perspective as a female, I have always felt that the B word was used to dehumanize women, and I can remember that word stinging from the time I was a little kid. I remember thinking, “Does that word mean that I’m less than human?” So, from where I’m sitting, a de-humanizing word is a de-humanizing word. Am I way off base with that one?
D.L. Hughley: There is no equating the two. They took a word “bitch,” which means a female dog, and equated it to something else, that is true. But they made up a word to describe us. Bitch is horrible, but it had another meaning. “Nigger” never had another meaning. They invented a word just for us. To me, there is no comparison and no other word that equates to our word.
Allison Kugel: On page 164 of your book, you cite the statistic that 72% of black births in the United States are from unwed mothers, and you do point out that it includes women who have partners but are unmarried, and women who simply choose to not be married. Then you go on to point out that one reason black women often outnumber eligible black men is because so many black men are in prison. Do you pin some of that on former President Bill Clinton’s now infamous 1994 crime bill that ultimately led to the mass incarceration of black men in the United States?
D.L. Hughley: Here’s what I will say… I remember when they banned assault rifles (a ten-year ban passed by United States Congress in 1994). It wasn’t because mass shooters were using them. It was because gang members were using them. Bill Clinton banned them at the time because of that. Bill Clinton gave black community members, black community leaders and elected officials, what they asked for, which was relief from crime. And now they get to pretend that they didn’t ask for it. They asked for that. Black leaders asked for harsher sentences, and now they get to pretend that they didn’t. I remember that Bill Clinton had a Republican congress. Everything he did would have had to go through congress, and they weren’t inclined to do anything but be hard on n*****s. I think Bill Clinton is at fault. I think the elected officials are at fault, and I think that the American population is at fault. Any time somebody sells somebody out, it’s going to be us. That includes our own elected officials, our own civic leaders and our own religious leaders. If you want to send a black man to prison, get a conservative black person on the jury. You cannot not send black people to jail without other black people being complicit in some way.
Allison Kugel: There’s a part in the book where you compare black-sounding names versus white-sounding names, and dressing black versus dressing white, in a sarcastic way. Do you think black people are more pressured to assimilate than other ethnic groups? And by the way, your kids have very Caucasian-sounding names. Was that deliberate on your part?
D.L. Hughley: It was more so my wife. I wanted them to have names where you can tell where they’re from. But statistically, if a person has an urban-sounding name they are less likely to be hired. She knew that, and I didn’t. The Washington Post did a story on biases with teachers, where if you live in a certain zip code, if you come from a single parent home, if you have a certain name, you’re judged a certain way. My wife knew all of that. I’m glad she named our kids. When it first happened, it used to annoy the shit out of me, but she didn’t weigh them down with my bullshit.
Allison Kugel: What’s your opinion on the song, The Story of O.J. by Jay Z and the music video for the song. Brilliant social commentary or offensive imagery?
D.L. Hughley: Brilliant is a word that’s used a lot. I think it was demonstrative. I got it. I wouldn’t call it “brilliant,” because that word is overused. I think it was clear and interesting, and satirical. But brilliant would be a whole different level or category.
Allison Kugel: I know of some people who thought it made an interesting and accurate social statement, and other people I know were completely offended by it because of the negative stereotypical images it portrayed.
D.L. Hughley: There’s a book called Whistling Vivaldi: How Stereotypes Affect Us and What We Can Do (W.W. Norton and Company). It’s about stereotypes and how they started. Stereotypes exist because somebody embodied them. I’m not saying most people, but some people did. And it was clear enough where people took that as the majority. I was on a plane one time and it was me and a bunch of other famous comics. A lady came up to us and said, “Are you guys in entertainment?” because we were in first class. They all got offended. I was like, “Motherf*cker, we are in entertainment, and we are sitting in first class, so shut up!” (Laughs). Most black people you know who are wealthy are in entertainment or they’re athletes, so stop pretending like that’s not true. It doesn’t mean that all of us are that, but a lot of people embody that fact.
Allison Kugel: Do you believe there is a reason for everything that happens, and that you are here at this time, exactly as you are, for a greater purpose?
D.L. Hughley: I think I am supposed to give a higher level of clarity and specificity to the things I see. All an artist can ever be is what they see. I want my people, and by that, I mean all human beings, to see themselves. And I don’t want people to make excuses. This week I watched people use the bible to justify putting children in chains. Those are the same scriptures they used to put black men in chains. If there is anything I do, it’s to be an artist who is clear enough so that people will get that I’m saying exactly what I saw.
Allison Kugel: Where is the elusive bridge of communication, for example, between police officers and the black community?
D.L. Hughley: Here’s the way we have a dialogue; it starts with accountability. The same accountability you demand from us as a community, we should demand from you as [law enforcement] professionals. When a mayor in Los Angeles says we need to teach our children to respect the police, well children are just children and that’s why you have parents. You have to guide them at that age, and in the process they make a lot of mistakes. But is a reasonable solution to a communal problem to say that children need to be more responsible than trained adults? When Megyn Kelly has me on her show to talk about the police and says, “I’m going to talk with Mark Fuhrman first,” or when you tell children to act more responsible than adults who are fully trained by the state, that’s based on a false premise.
Allison Kugel: What do you think the police are afraid of?
D.L. Hughley: I can’t speak for them. I can’t tell you what they’re afraid of. But I can tell you this, that I don’t only teach my children to respect the police, I teach them to fear the police. If the police treated us like the human beings that they say they serve, then we would be okay, but they don’t. What the police do is what they’ve always done to black people, to keep us in our place. You’re suspicious if you’re somewhere you don’t belong. The reason we have all these policemen getting called is because [black people] are in places where people aren’t used to seeing them or are uncomfortable seeing them. That’s always been their mission. Maybe we should change what their mission is. Maybe it shouldn’t be to just keep us in our place. Maybe it should be to treat us like citizens. If you call the police on somebody for barbequing, for sleeping in a common area at Yale, or walking to a mall, or eating at certain places, what that tells you is the police’s goal is to make society feel safe from us. I got the police called on me in my own neighborhood, and I’ve lived there for seventeen years. My wife has had that happen and my children have had that happen. You can look around Calabasas (a tony suburb in Los Angeles’s northern San Fernando Valley) and you wouldn’t see many people who have lived there longer than me, but I’m the stranger!
Allison Kugel: Have you had some positive interactions with the police?
D.L. Hughley: Sure. Generally, they work for me (laughs). I have three police officers that work for me. But, it’s been ninety percent bullshit and ten percent cool. I think white people would say it’s the other way around.
Allison Kugel: I’ve often heard black men say that if they are too outspoken about racial issues and/or if they’re platform should grow too big and too powerful, they then become a target and the government will now see them as a problem that needs to be dealt with. Do you ever think about that?
D.L. Hughley: I’m going to do what it is I believe. I can’t say how people will respond to it. That’s not my job. You gotta be doing something when you go. I teach my children to stand up for what they believe in and to be willing to sacrifice for their beliefs. And I can say that my children know who they are as people, and they know who I am and what I believe.
Photo Credits: Book Cover Art: William Morrow, an Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers; D.L. Hughley Portraits: Shannon McCollum.
D.L. Hughley’s book, How Not To Get Shot (And Other Advice From White People) is available everywhere books are sold June 26, 2018. Pre-order your copy. His hit radio show, The D.L. Hughley Show, airs weekdays, 3PM to 7PM in national syndication.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel and visit AllisonKugel.com.
By Allison Kugel
Twenty-nine years after releasing his debut album, Lenny Kravitz is still letting love rule, but with an eye towards societal strife that continues to go unchecked. The multi-Grammy award winning musician brings forth a conscious body of work with Raise Vibration, his eleventh studio album, out September 7th. The first single off the Raise Vibration album, It’s Enough, is a battle cry against corporate greed, political corruption and racism. Kravitz switches gears with his follow up single, Low, exploring the perils of his near-mythical sensuality with intonations alluding to his past intimate relationships. For Lenny Kravitz, the art of the story is paramount, while pop music trends are immaterial. He tells stories through his writing, vocals, and the multitude of instruments he has mastered over the years.
Musically, Raise Vibration is an eclectic blend of the kind of stylistic rock n’ roll-funk sound that Kravitz is known for, with subtle nods to vintage R&B and choruses that sway towards pop appeal. His music puts you in a trance-like groove and defies all genre.
Lenny Kravitz, the man, is a veritable roadmap of his past experiences. From making his way in an industry that doesn’t always value individuality, to making his way in a world that begged to define and categorize him by race and ethnicity in his formative years, he wears his memories on his sleeve and they inform much of his artistic expression. Our conversation surprised me as it took a more intimate turn. He and I delved into matters of spirituality, racial identity, family and the rituals that aide him in creating his eclectic sound. We were very much on the same page as he shared his feelings about everything from racism and societal injustice to his personal spiritual journey, his family and his music.
Allison Kugel: You’ve said you were born to make music. Can you share your earliest memory where you became aware that music was going to be your life?
Lenny Kravitz: For me the pivotal moment was going to see The Jackson 5, live at Madison Square Garden, when I was six years old. I was in the first grade. I had already been intently listening to their record. But I went to the show, and the next morning that was it! I was completely sold. I knew that’s what I wanted to do.
Allison Kugel: What was it about The Jackson 5 that resonated with you?
Lenny Kravitz: Number one was the music. The music was incredible. The music that was made by these kids was not elementary, it wasn’t bubble gum as they used to say back then about young artists. This was very sophisticated, high-level music with the best musicians, the best producers, and [Michael] was one of the best singers who ever lived and who ever will live. The level of interpretation and feeling and vocal range… it was a perfect storm for me, the way everything came together. On top of the music, the presentation and the showmanship were top level and soulful, and these were people that I could identify with. They looked like me. I had the same hair… there were so many things that came together in my mind.
Allison Kugel: It’s interesting to hear you say that. My son is half Jewish and half Jamaican, and he does the same thing. He tends to gravitate towards people he sees on television, in film, and with music, who have his skin tone and his hair.
Lenny Kravitz: Yup! I have the same background, except I’m Jewish and Bahamian.
Allison Kugel: When and where do you feel most creative and musical?
Lenny Kravitz: It could be anywhere, but it’s in the studio, so wherever that may be. My studio is in the Bahamas. It’s my favorite place to work; it’s my workshop. When I’m in the studio and I’ve got all my equipment and all my instruments, and everything is set up, that’s the magical place for me. It’s where I’m comfortable and where I can flow. When I’m inspired and in that flow, I can move. I jump around from instrument to instrument, and it’s wonderful.
Allison Kugel: You are such a true musician in every sense of the word. Aside from singing, you play several instruments, and you write and produce. When you record your music, is it all you doing everything in the studio? Are you recording all of the instrumentals in addition to doing your vocals and producing?
Lenny Kravitz: Yes, I start on drums normally and then I go to a guitar, a bass, another guitar, keyboard, percussion… I keep layering as though I was painting, until my picture is complete.
Allison Kugel: Your upcoming album is called Raise Vibration and the first single, It’s Enough, is a call-to-action anthem about political corruption and social and racial injustice. Was writing It’s Enough a form of therapy for you, and a way of turning hopelessness into empowerment? For example, I live part of the year in Florida, not too far from Parkland. When the Parkland school shooting happened, I went into a depression where I was feeling helpless as a parent. Then I thought, “I’m a writer. I can contribute something by writing a piece about this.” Was it a similar process for you?
Lenny Kravitz: I react to the world. Just as you say you did, I have a reaction. I actually recorded the song twice. I was trying to find the direction for the record. The way the song started, the first version of It’s Enough was a full-on guitar, bass, drum, punk rock song. It had an angry tone to it, because that felt like the proper reaction. And then I thought about it and ended up changing it and finding this groove, which is the polar opposite of what it started out as. I found that by being calm and by being centered and by being quiet, it was more effective. It brought out a whole new feeling in the song, and I think it enables the listener to hear the lyrics even better.
Allison Kugel: And you feel it brings more of a positive energy, as opposed to the original version, which would have brought forth anger.
Lenny Kravitz: Absolutely. I’m all about positive energy. I’m stating the facts, but in the end, I always take an optimistic and positive tone that, “People, we can do this!” We can do it. It’s just a matter of waking up.
Allison Kugel: What does the title of your album, Raise Vibration, mean to you? And how do you raise your vibration? Do you meditate? Do you Pray?
Lenny Kravitz: It means exactly that; waking up. I meditate, I pray, I try to be still, I try to be quiet… and listen. It means having the desire to learn, to improve, and to face my faults and learn from them. I’m always looking to go higher. And taking as much ego out of myself as possible.
Allison Kugel: How do you define God?
Lenny Kravitz: I believe that God is my creator, our creator. Whether we realize it or not, I believe we are all created by the same God. I believe we are all one creation, we are all connected, and I believe that God is the ultimate source of love and all we are looking for.
Allison Kugel: Do you consider yourself an activist?
Lenny Kravitz: That’s a difficult one. I use my music to express myself, and if it inspires others then that’s a beautiful thing. I don’t know that I’m initially doing it for any other reason than to express myself. But I do see myself going more in that direction where you could call it that.
Allison: I ask because when I listened to It’s Enough, your first single off this new album, I could tell you’re at a point in your life, and in your career, where you have no problem stating your opinions on societal issues.
Lenny Kravitz: Right, but for instance, from my first album, Let Love Rule up until now, I haven’t had that problem. It’s always been within me to express myself truthfully.
Allison Kugel: I always say that when I enter a room, or wherever I may be, that I never walk alone because I can feel the presence of God beside me, as well as my great grandparents, my grandparents, my parents, siblings and my son. I walk into a space with the energy of those who made me who I am, walking beside me. When you enter a space, who walks beside you?
Lenny Kravitz: God is with me at all times which I am always aware of. And the energy of my mother, of my grandmother, of my grandfather. My daughter (actress, Zoe Kravitz), who is here with me on this earth, is always with me. And like you said, knowing that and feeling that, and knowing that spirit is far superior to anything here. The physical presence is wonderful, and something that we require and crave as human beings. We’re spiritual beings living a physical experience, but as you say, you recognize that you have these people with you and it just shows how strong spirit is and how strong energy is. My mother’s (the late actress, Roxie Roker) been gone for twenty plus years, and I can still feel her every day. I can still sense her presence because the energy she left is so powerful. That’s an awesome thing.
Allison Kugel: Your music really transcends any one genre. It’s a blend of rock, punk, blues, soul, pop; it’s really everything. You can’t categorize your music. And I remember seeing a clip of you, I believe it was on Oprah’s Master Class, where you tell the story of sitting in a classroom as a young boy and you didn’t know which box to check off on a piece of paper asking you to identify your race. Everyone’s life has a theme, and that theme repeats itself over and over again because it’s tied to something we’re supposed to learn while we’re here. In your case it seems to be this ongoing theme where people want to put you in a box and label you, and you railing against that.
Lenny Kravitz: People love a box (laughs)! And they want to put you right in it, so they can easily define, for their own comfort, what you are. I’ve been fighting against that from day one in my life, and in my musical life. Like with radio stations, this one only plays this, and that one only plays that. This fits here, and that fits there, and you don’t fit here. It’s like, “Shit! That’s not what art is about!” But, unfortunately, that’s not what the business is, which is very frustrating. Going back to that time in school, I knew I was black, but I knew that wasn’t all I was. I knew I was also Russian Jewish and I knew that my great grandmother was full blooded Cherokee Indian. My mother always taught me, “Yes, you’re black, but you’re just as much this and you’re just as much that, and you don’t discount that.” If you’re mixed, like me and like your son, you don’t discount one of your parents. You’re just as much one as the other. But, what my mother did say to me when I was a child that I think was very smart, and I didn’t realize it until I got older, was, “Even though you’re mixed, society only wants to see you as black.” I didn’t understand that at age seven.
Allison Kugel: Did you feel diminished by it, at that time, at age seven?
Lenny Kravitz: I remember her saying it, but I don’t remember exactly how I felt when she said it. From what I recall, I remember thinking, “What does that mean?” Of course, as I grew and went through life, I understood what that meant. People aren’t going to see all the complexities and the differences. People are going to see what they see, and that is the color of your skin. Not all people, but a lot of people. That was a very good lesson once it kicked in. I was like, “Okay, people don’t see everything for what it is.” People see what they want to see. They judge it how they want to judge it, based upon their pre-conceived ideas of what that is.
Allison Kugel: It’s a tough conversation to have with a child.
Lenny Kravitz: But kids now, from what I see, are not tripping on the race thing like generations before, are they?
Allison Kugel: There is a difference from generations ago, and my son has several multiracial friends. Recently, he said, “Mom, what does black mean? My skin is brown.” Part of my response in explaining it was that “black” is a political term and a societal designation, as is “white.” Of course, that will also make more sense as he gets older.
Lenny Kravitz: You have to explain to kids people’s fucked up attitudes about race. That’s really what you’re doing. You have to break down the judgment and short sightedness, and peoples’ hang ups, and the history of people screwing over other people because they were different.
Allison Kugel: Speaking of kids, how would your daughter Zoe describe you, both as a man and as an artist?
Lenny Kravitz: Oh wow! We’re very, very close. I think she would say that I have respect and integrity, and love in my heart. I think as a musician, she respects what I do. She’s grown up around it. She grew up seeing it her whole life. This is hard because If I say, “She thinks I’m amazing,” then it sounds like I’m complimenting myself. She respects the craft, what it takes and what I put into it, which is everything.
Allison Kugel: On September 7th, the day the new album, Raise Vibration, is released, what are those days like for you, when a new album drops?
Lenny Kravitz: When I’m finished with an album, I’m at that place where I let go and I’m excited that I’m finished. It’s always exciting getting a new project out. I hope the people who enjoy my music will get something beautiful from it and will relate to it. As far as the rest, in terms of how well it does, sales and all of that, that’s all great, but the main thing for me is that I expressed myself authentically to who I am, who I was at that moment in time, and that it represents me well. That to me is everything. That’s a success.
Photo Credits: Mathieu Bitton, Mark Seliger
3X Platinum Lenny Kravitz GREATEST HITS album is now available on vinyl as a 2 LP set via Virgin/Ume at uDiscoverMusic. His 11th studio album Raise Vibration is set for release September 7th via BMG. Pre-order at LennyKravitz.com. The album’s debut track, It’s Enough, is available to stream at iTunes.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
By Allison Kugel
Gwen Stefani spent her childhood and adolescence in Anaheim, California, a suburban girl living just a stone’s throw from Disneyland. It was her older brother, Eric, who founded No Doubt, the hybrid ska/punk/rock band that would help Stefani make her way into the musical limelight with their 1995 breakout album, Tragic Kingdom. The band’s unique sound coupled with Stefani’s platinum blonde hair, red lips and punk rock fashion sensibility, brought the singer to Rockstar status in the 1990s.
With lyrics torn from the pages of Gwen’s personal diary about falling in love, breakups, makeups and mending a broken heart, her music has always drawn in listeners with its raw vulnerability. Her down-to-earth nature and self-deprecating sense of humor helped to seal the deal with fans, making her one of the most successful female recording artists of the past twenty-three years.
Her first solo album, 2004’s Love. Angel. Music. Baby. and L.A.M.B. fashion label, catapulted her into the music and style icon stratosphere in the early 2000s. Follow up albums like 2006’s The Sweet Escape and No Doubt’s 2012 reunion album, Push and Shove capped off two decades of non-stop recording and touring for the Grammy winning artist, as she focused on raising her three sons with then husband, Bush lead singer, Gavin Rossdale.
In the summer of 2015, the California girl experienced a seismic 8.5 earthquake in her personal life when her marriage to Rossdale imploded amidst a cheating scandal. An unexpected romance came in the form of country crooner, and Gwen’s The Voice costar, Blake Shelton, whom the Hollaback girl began dating later that same year. Gwen then did what she does best, pouring her emotions into her most personal music to date, with 2016’s This Is What the Truth Feels Like album and a subsequent tour.
This summer the hitmaking mom of Kingston, 11, Zuma, 9, and Apollo, 4, is preparing to embark on her Las Vegas Residency at Zappos Theatre at the Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino. It’s called, what else? Gwen Stefani: Just A Girl – an homage to her first single to make the Billboard Hot 100 Chart and her own personal anthem that she says still holds true today. I sat down with Gwen to discuss this new chapter in her life and career.
Allison Kugel: Was this Las Vegas Residency a family decision? Did you sit down with your three boys and say, “Mom’s going to perform in Las Vegas instead of touring. What do you think about that?”
Gwen Stefani: Honestly, my kids don’t really have too much of a say on what the schedule’s going to be. But as a mom, if you look at my touring for the last ten years, I haven’t really toured. In the past, I did tour for seven years. It’s hard with the kids, because they’re in school and I’m not home schooling, and you can’t pull them out. It’s not fair on them. I did my last tour because I had this unexpected life crisis and then the music came pouring out of me from that. I didn’t even plan on making any music. It was such a lifesaver and a beautiful moment for me to be able to write again. I put that tour on at the last minute (referring to her “This Is What The Truth Feels Like” tour) and went on a summer tour with the kids. It was so much fun for them. They love touring, but it isn’t realistic. So, I’ve been thinking about doing the Vegas show for a while now. The Las Vegas Residency will really work for me as a mom, because it’s these little chunks of time where you can fly in and out, and it’s workable.
Allison Kugel: It’s a shifting of priorities.
Gwen Stefani: Yes. After that last tour, I felt like, “God I’ve toured a lot in my life!” I love it, but it takes so much out of me as far as being able to focus on the rest of my life with the kids. I have three kids and it’s a big deal! Any parent would probably go, “How does she do it?” It’s almost impossible to do and it’s a lot of balancing. The Las Vegas Residency is just perfect for where I’m at right now.
Allison Kugel: What does performing live give you, personally and energetically?
Gwen Stefani: Being on stage for me, I always forget how much it’s a part of who I am. I’ve done it for my whole life, pretty much. I always think I don’t want to do it. I always think it’s fine if I never do it again. Then when I get on stage, even when I’m sound checking, I’m like, “Oh My God, I love this!” I love my music, I love being up there, I love the attention and I love being able to share that love with people and get that exchange. I don’t understand why I like it so much.
Allison Kugel: It feeds your soul. You’re connecting with source and you’re in a zone.
Gwen Stefani: It’s my gift. It’s what I’m here for. I’m obviously at the end of my journey of being a musician…
Allison Kugel: Why would you say that?
Gwen Stefani: Well because of my age, and I’ve been doing it for thirty something years. It’s perfect for me to be able to do a Las Vegas show, because not only does it work for me as a mom, but it also works creatively. It’s a new challenge. It’s going to be a way to express myself and do my whole catalog of music that defines every single period in my life; all the crises and all the joys. Creatively, I couldn’t have done it any sooner. I had to have all these songs. It just feels like the perfect next chapter for me.
Allison Kugel: You’re taking the audience on a journey of your life, and to do that you have to have lived.
Gwen Stefani: Exactly! And I also think people who are going out for that weekend in Las Vegas, it’s so different from, for example, if I’m performing in Philly and it’s about Philly culture, and the audience is just coming out for that one night and getting a babysitter. You know what I mean? This Vegas show is a bigger commitment for people. They’re going for the weekend and they’re making a memory. You’re competing with the Las Vegas nightlife, you’re competing with the gambling, the partying and with the hotels and all the expenses. It’s a big commitment for people, and they’re coming to me from all over the world.
Allison Kugel: And they’re going to get a more intimate experience with you than they would in a stadium setting.
Gwen Stefani: It is a much smaller audience than I’m used to, under five thousand people. It’s going to be so different and that’s something I need. When you’ve toured for however many years I have, it’s super awesome, but let’s do something new! That’s why even doing The Voice for the last couple of years was so inspiring for me. I think everybody wants something challenging and new to look forward to.
Allison Kugel: You went to see Jennifer Lopez’s Las Vegas show, All I Have. I’m assuming the two of you discussed her Las Vegas Residency. Did she give you any advice?
Gwen Stefani: Me and Jennifer, I’ve always looked up to her in the sense that we’re exactly the same age, and I remember when No Doubt was coming out and she hadn’t done Jenny from The Block yet, but she had that song out, Waiting for Tonight. At the time I was working with Prince and he started comparing me and Jennifer, and at that time I didn’t even see how I was in the same category with her. She was Jennifer Lopez and I was in a band called No Doubt (laughs). But now here we both are doing these residencies all these years later, and we’ve known each other through the years. She’s always invited me to her kids’ birthday parties and things like that. She is a crazy worker. I cannot believe how much she works! I know I do, but I look at her and I’m like, “Wow!”
Allison Kugel: It doesn’t seem human, right? Multiple television shows, Las Vegas Residency, albums…
Gwen Stefani: I know. I don’t understand it. Going to see her, and I’d never seen her do a performance live, I was studying the production of her show. The show was incredible, and she works so hard on stage. I admire her a lot and it was so inspiring to see… and scary! When I came backstage to talk to her afterwards, she comes out of the dressing room looking like a Barbie Doll. She was breathtaking on stage, but when you see her up close, it’s like, “What?! It’s not possible. You are so gorgeous!” She was just so glamorous. We talked for awhile and she was like, “Yeah, I’ve just done 100 shows…” And I’m like, “Whoa, that’s a lot of shows!” (Laughs) And she still has forty more to go. She’s really enjoyed it, but she said it is challenging.
Allison Kugel: I think you’ll find it challenging, but one of the best experiences of your life.
Gwen Stefani: It is challenging, and as performers we have a completely different perspective on doing a concert than the audience. The challenge isn’t about us. We’re going to be us every time we get up there. We may have that one night where we’re off because of whatever might be going on. A lot of times, you just never know what you’re going to be like on stage. But at the same time, we’re pretty much consistent. It’s really about the audience. What are they going to be like and are they into it or not?
Allison Kugel: What are you presenting to the audience, artistically, with your Just A Girl Las Vegas Residency? You’re also a fashion designer and you have a strong aesthetic vision. Between the sets and the costumes, how will everything tie together on stage?
Gwen Stefani: I’ve really tried to put together a show that has a nostalgic feel. The show is full of hit songs that are recognizable and take you back to that time period in your life. And of course, the real reason for doing Vegas is the costumes. I’m working with Rob Zangardi and Mariel Haenn who I’ve been working with now for, I don’t know how many years. They are just incredible. They did Jennifer [Lopez’s] show, and they’ve also worked with Jennifer for years. They really get me. I think there’s going to be about five costume changes, which is a lot for me considering that with No Doubt I never did any.
Allison Kugel: I remember. With No Doubt, it was just you out there with your cut off t-shirts (laughs).
Gwen Stefani: (Laughs) Yeah. But now I’m working with designers to see what they come up with. There are different chapters as far as what I want to look like, and I basically have it all worked out. Now it’s just putting it all together.
Allison Kugel: The title of your Las Vegas show, Just A Girl, is the title of one of your biggest hits, but it has a double meaning for you. You’re always saying, “I’m just a girl from Orange County…” Is that your way of keeping yourself grounded?
Gwen Stefani: Honestly, I think if you really knew me or saw my family and how I grew up, I am 100% the same person I have always been. When I wrote that song, Just A Girl, I was twenty-five years old, going to college, still living at my parent’s house, and I was very naïve. I had a boyfriend at the time that lived at his parent’s house. I was driving one day and I’m thinking, “Wow! I really have a different position in this world, being that I’m a female.”
Allison Kugel: Did something happen that made you stop and think, “I’m going to be treated a certain way because I’m a girl.”?
Gwen Stefani: It was just more of a realization that I had. I think we all do as females. I’m walking down the street and some guy just whistled at me? What does that even mean? Suddenly, you’re aware of your sexuality and that you’re ascribed a certain value because of it. It was when that hit me, that I wrote the song, Just A Girl. Nobody was paying attention at the time. Nobody was ever going to hear the song. I didn’t even know how to write a song. It was just so naïve. I guess I wanted to figure out a way to say, “This is my DNA.” And really, my DNA is I am just a girl from Anaheim [California]. I’m just me, and I’ve never been anything else. I know that’s what got me to this point, by being honest, real and sharing my story with people. That’s all we can do in this life, and I’m nothing more than that. But at the same time, by using my gift, being aware of it, trying to respect it and being confident in it, I’ve gotten this far. Music is so powerful, and for a song like that to still be relevant twenty years later? In a way, it’s even more relevant now. We have so much going on with female empowerment and what’s our place? When I read the lyrics of that song I think, “My gosh, that must have been a Godsend,” because I know I didn’t think that up on my own. I always thought it would go out of fashion, or I’d be too old to say “just a girl” but it still works.
Allison Kugel: Has Blake had any creative input with this Las Vegas show?
Gwen Stefani: Obviously he’s my best friend, so I’m bouncing stuff off him all the time. He’s one of those people in my life that’s super supportive and gets me motivated. There’s a whole bunch of songs about him in the show, so that’s fun. Like anybody with their best friend, we share everything together. I’ll tell him, “I picked my dancers. There were 500 girls that tried out!” And I’ll send him videos. Just things like that.
Allison Kugel: Did you choose Planet Hollywood as the venue?
Gwen Stefani: I feel like they chose me, and what’s really cool about it is that Planet Hollywood is also the Zappos Theatre now, and the Zappos team is just incredible. They’re taking over the theatre with their creativity and it has a very futuristic feel. I also give $1 of every single ticket sold to the children’s charity, Cure 4 The Kids Foundation. It’s going to add up to be a crap load of money! It’s something I’m going to be really proud of. You get very motivated about giving and helping, and making a difference, but you really don’t think as one person you’re ever going to in your life. I feel that to be able to get up there and share my story, and then make that kind of money to give away is amazing. I feel so proud of that.
Allison Kugel: What’s your routine before you step out on stage? Do you pray? Do you meditate? How do you gear up to give your best performance?
Gwen Stefani: I don’t meditate. I’m a prayer. I pray, but first I do my makeup (laughs). My makeup is huge for me. I have this song called War Paint. Putting on my makeup and getting ready, there is a kind of meditation in the preparation. Makeup is art, and it’s like getting into character when I put it on. I’ve always done my own makeup for shows. And the praying for me is really important. We do a group prayer circle. In the last few years, and when I toured for the last show, the payer is not just before, but also during [the show]. When I think about how ordinary I’ve always been, and to think that I’ve created all these songs, I don’t know where they come from. I always think that it’s got to be a channeling and it just comes through me. It’s a spiritual thing that has been given to me to share. When I’m in the music, the music takes me right back to those moments in my life. And some of those moments are sickening, you know what I mean? Certain memories are upsetting. That’s why I say this is not just a show for me, it’s my life. It’s real for me and I think that’s why I’m very anxious about it.
Allison Kugel: It’s going to be a tremendous spiritual, emotional and physical undertaking.
Gwen Stefani: And I’m very lazy (laughs). I like to not have to work out and not have to be committed to something. And I love to be with my children, of course. But it is such an amazing opportunity and they don’t just hand them out to everybody. I feel really honored to be able to do it. I’m thrilled to see who’s going to show up and it’s going to be a lot of fun. I’m going to look back on this and say, “I can’t believe I did that!”
Gwen Stefani: Just a Girl Las Vegas Residency opens June 27th at Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino’s Zappos Theatre. Order tickets at https://www.caesars.com/planet-hollywood/shows/gwen-stefani.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Photo Credits: Yu Tsai, Denise Truscello
By Allison Kugel
From his early days on the comedy stage to playing lovable football fanatic, Hayden Fox, on the long running television sitcom Coach and Zeek Braverman on the dramatic television series, Parenthood to countless legendary big screen roles, actor Craig T. Nelson’s career has been as versatile as it is prolific.
Movie audiences have been loving his work for decades in popular films spanning just about every genre: Poltergeist, Stir Crazy, All The Right Moves, Silkwood, The Devil’s Advocate, The Family Stone and The Proposal. It was his voice work in the 2004 mega hit animated Disney Pixar movie, The Incredibles, that introduced Nelson to a younger audience. His voice is readily recognizable as the voice of Mr. Incredible, and as he tells it, the world stops spinning for a beat whenever a starstruck child hears him speak.
Nelson currently plays Mary Steenburgen’s husband in the upcoming romantic comedy, Book Club, out May 18th. He’s also resuming his role as Mr. Incredible in Incredibles 2, the long-awaited sequel to the 2004 blockbuster animated movie, The Incredibles, out June 15th.
Our conversation runs the gamut from overcoming the perils of aging in Hollywood, mid-life adventures, the secret to his long and happy marriage to wife, Doria Cook-Nelson, and the unique challenges of playing an animated icon for Disney Pixar.
Allison Kugel: With Book Club there are so many celebrated actors in one movie. What does an ensemble piece allow you to do as an actor that carrying a film or television show on your own doesn’t allow for?
Craig T. Nelson: The opportunity to work with the different characters that are being played broadens what you can do as an actor. Oftentimes, the way people react differently to different people they meet, it’s that same dynamic and it can be something of an adventure. Although in Book Club, most of my scenes are with Mary [Steenburgen]. There are only one or two scenes where I’m with everyone, although I knew everybody. In this movie, although it’s an ensemble cast, the focus was my interaction with Mary’s character.
Allison Kugel: What was your initial impression of the Book Club script when you first read it?
Craig T. Nelson: Oh, I loved it! It spoke to something I was familiar with; that whole process of aging. You think you’re never going to get there, but eventually it just shows up and there it is. I thought the script was well thought out, cogent, specific, and each character was delineated. I wanted to do the movie right away, after reading the script.
Allison Kugel: This movie addresses that mid-to-later-life slump that people can slide into without even realizing it’s happening. As you said, you wake up and it’s just there. How do you think men experience this phase of life differently from the way women experience it?
Craig T. Nelson: I think we experience it in much the same way. Although, it depends upon societal pressures. Part of the confusion is the result of what society is demanding now, which is pretty much all youth oriented. Cosmetically and pharmaceutically you’re supposed to be able to prolong your life, or at least the appearance of it. The reality is that you do age. Yes, we are living longer, but there’s more pressure associated with it. I suppose it’s how all of that manifests in each of us, which has to do with our own peculiar personality. That’s the interesting part about it; how each one of us deals with it. Generally speaking, your libido drops, physically you’re not as active and not able to do as much. All of that is pretty much the same in people, but very few people address it psychologically. There’s a lot of pressure to be young. But there is also a lot of pressure being old, not to get any older. I think that is so screwed up.
Allison Kugel: In Book Club, your wife, played by Mary Steenburgen, is upset because she feels your marriage has fallen into a slump. Do you think marriage should be able to go through its natural ebbs and flows romantically, sexually and emotionally?
Craig T. Nelson: If you’re married to your best friend, as I am, and I’m married thirty-four years now, then you have to realize you’re going to have ups and downs. You’re physically going to change, emotionally you’re going to change. You have to adapt and change, and be prepared for that stuff. That’s also part of the adventure. It seems like just yesterday I was talking to older actors about aging. I was a young working actor, and they were all telling me how difficult it was for them and how they were approaching a period in their life where they felt they weren’t working as much. I think they felt neglected and not as respected. I can remember a lot of guys talking about that. When it started happening to me, it was like, “Whoa! Wait a minute here.” But at least I have the tools. I think I was prepared for it to a certain degree.
Allison Kugel: With the hit series Grace and Frankie, and with this movie, Book Club, it seems that Hollywood is now gaining a little more respect for stories about mature people.
Craig T. Nelson: I think this movie will help. It brings some awareness, which I think is good, but ageism has been prevalent in this business for a long time.
Allison Kugel: The Baby Boomer generation are such a huge segment of the population, they have tremendous spending power, and they want to see stories about themselves.
Craig T. Nelson: Right, but as you see in television, for example, you’ve got a specific demographic that’s usually being targeted. I have always argued, even back when I was doing Coach (the ABC sitcom Nelson starred in from 1989 to 1997), that it’s not necessarily accurate. I agree that a lot of buying power rests in the hands of people who are approaching retirement, and in their forties and fifties. It’s like with the glut of action movies we’re getting and have had for a while. What is that? It’s enough already. I would much rather see stories like Book Club, which I feel are specific, well written and truthful. I’m fine with animated movies about superheroes. Obviously, I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with action films either, except that there is just so much of it, and what am I left with?
Allison Kugel: You began your career as a standup comedian, correct?
Craig T. Nelson: Barry Levinson and I did stand up [comedy] together for four years, and then another guy, Rudy DeLuca joined us. We wrote and performed comedy, and then we worked with Tim Conway, John Byner and Alan King. That’s how I started.
Allison Kugel: How did you segue into film and television, and how does that early standup experience help you in the roles you play now?
Craig T. Nelson: I was never really interested in doing standup comedy. Barry Levinson and I were in the Oxford Theatre together, which was a theatre group in LA. We got to talking and Barry said, “Why don’t we do a standup act?” I had never done that and never even thought of it, but we put an act together. We went out and auditioned and started doing clubs. It was an intro into the business, and I met so many incredible people during that time. It does give me a different perspective. Comedy helped me to enlarge and be better at what I did. Another important thing is that you just get better as you get older. You realize what you’re doing more, and you don’t make as many mistakes. I’m so much more comfortable in a scene now than I ever was, because I know how to play it. Certainly, there are challenges, but your tool bag is filled up. There are so many experiences and so many people to draw on, and it’s a wonderful place to be.
Allison Kugel: This is not your first time playing Mary Steenburgen’s husband. You also played husband and wife in the 2009 movie, The Proposal, alongside Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock. How was it playing her husband again in Book Club? This time around, was there a comfortable rapport already in place?
Craig T. Nelson: She’s so much fun to work with. She’s got this wonderful quirkiness to her that is so beautiful. It’s also very challenging, because you need to stay on top of your game with her, as with all the actresses in this film. I’ve worked with Diane [Keaton], I’ve worked with Jane [Fonda], I hadn’t met Candice [Bergen] until this film, so that was neat. I look forward to continuing to work with Mary. There is an understanding between me and Mary. You’re able to ask questions of each other or address problems in a scene together. There’s no wandering around, trying to get to the truth of something.
Allison Kugel: How is the book Fifty Shades of Grey a catalyst for the comedy that ensues in this movie?
Craig T. Nelson: Fifty Shades of Grey wasn’t an important part of my story in the film. It’s part of the women’s story. I think you’re going to be surprised. The book is a catalyst in terms of Mary’s character becoming aware of how bad things have gotten [in our marriage]. That’s the only purpose the book serves. We’ve been having problems in our marriage and the book forces the issue to the surface.
Allison Kugel: Do you recall a moment in your own life when you realized you weren’t living your best life, or there were things still yet to be done?
Craig T. Nelson: I’ve had a number of them, and still they continue. One of the many things I felt the need to do was professional car racing, when I decided to go ahead and pursue it. Gradually I became better and better at it. It wasn’t a death wish (laughs); it was a life wish. It was doing something that is very risky and challenging, but something I’d always wanted to do and never had the opportunity before. And now I’m going, “Wow, this is something I really enjoy!” It requires an enormous amount of concentration and focus, which is another reason I really like it.
Allison Kugel: How does your real wife, Doria, feel about your race car driving?
Craig T. Nelson: It was something that my wife really suggested I do. She’s very strong. She’s a martial artist and she competes in Tai Chi Kwan all over the world in competitions. She said, “[Car racing] is something you should try.” And once I got into it, she encouraged me to continue doing it.
Allison Kugel: Let’s switch gears and discuss another upcoming movie you’re in, the much-anticipated Incredibles 2! Why the fourteen-year gap between the release of The Incredibles and Incredibles 2?
Craig T. Nelson: I don’t know for sure, but I can tell you that [Incredibles writer and director] Brad Bird was busy with other things. He wanted to do some live action projects and then he made Ratatouille right after The Incredibles. He was very busy in his career.
Allison Kugel: In the first movie, The Incredibles, your character, Mr. Incredible is struggling with living life as a civilian. He’s dying to be a superhero again and to use his powers. Holly Hunter’s character, Elastigirl, wanted a normal, low key family life. In Incredibles 2, it’s reversed. She’s out being a superhero and you’re the stay at home dad. How does that go for Mr. Incredible?
Craig T. Nelson: He doesn’t quite understand it and is feeling rejected, like, “Why don’t they want me out there?” He now has to take a back seat and for him that’s difficult. He makes the sacrifice for his wife. He’s got a resentment going on, but as you watch him at home you get to know these kids in a way that’s fun and interesting. And you get to see a guy have to adapt and get to know his children in a way that he hasn’t. That was neat for me to play.
Allison Kugel: When you’re voicing an animated character like Mr. Incredible, are you in the recording booth with any other cast members, or is it just you in there?
Craig T. Nelson: You’re not with the other cast members. You’re with Brad, who’s in every session. He’s directing what you’re responding to, and you go off that. Usually we’ll do a session every three weeks, for four hours at a time. Then they’ll put that into rough animation, so you can see what you’ve got. I’ve only done one session with another actor, and it was with Samuel L. Jackson who plays Frozone.
Allison Kugel: How do you get into character when you’re voicing Mr. Incredible?
Craig T. Nelson: You prepare ahead of time in the session, especially vocally because there are a lot of different ranges you have to get to. There are scenes when you’re doing a lot of yelling and shouting. And it’s a long and involved process that’s complexly different from regular acting.
Allison Kugel: I’m sure you’ve watched the first movie, The Incredibles, with your grandchildren. What do they think of you playing Mr. Incredible?
Craig T. Nelson: They don’t relate the two. They still don’t believe it (laughs). I have to do lines from the film, so they can hear me do the voice, and then it’s, “Oh yeah, that’s him.”
Allison Kugel: When you’re out, are you ever stopped by kids who know you’re Mr. Incredible?
Craig T. Nelson: The other day my older son was visiting, and somebody overheard me talking to him and they turned around and said, “My God! Are you Mr. Incredible?!” They’ll recognize the voice, it’s interesting. And then you have to convince this kid that you are! And you feel like an idiot trying to get a seven-year-old to believe you (laughs). They look at you with this wonder, yet at the same time disbelief. It gets confusing even for me.
Allison Kugel: My nine-year-old and I will be there on opening night, for sure. He’s been waiting for this sequel, no joke, for years! What will kids and families get to experience with Incredibles 2 that they didn’t with the first movie?
Craig T. Nelson: The special FX are extraordinary. Since 2004 when the original movie was out, they’ve developed a whole new range of different processes that have gone into this movie, including its color enrichment. For me, the exciting thing about the second movie is that the character Jack Jack, the baby, really comes alive and that’s going to be so much fun for people to see. What’s so great about this movie is that it’s a family deal. You can take your family to this movie and have a great time. And same with Book Club. It’s two movies I’m proud to let my family watch.
Book Club Photo Credits: Peter Iovino/Paramount Pictures, Melinda Sue Gordon/Paramount Picture
Incredibles 2 Photo Credits: Disney Pixar
Book Club is in theatres May 18th and Incredibles 2 is in theatres June 15th.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
By Allison Kugel
Born out of a time capsule from Hollywood’s golden era, glamour girl and burlesque goddess, Dita Von Teese has been captivating imaginations around the world since she burst onto the scene in the early 2000s, first on the cover of Playboy Magazine, and then draped on the arm of controversial rocker, Marilyn Manson. Since then, Dita has carved out an iconic reputation for herself as the most famous and sought after burlesque performer in the world. Vanity Fair has dubbed her a “Burlesque Superheroine,” and Elle has declared her an “all around icon.”
The raven haired, fair skinned, hourglass shaped glamour girl who never leaves home without the perfect red lip and vintage sunglasses, Von Teese travels the globe performing burlesque shows that pay homage to the vintage artform, but with a modern interpretation. She performs to sell-out crowds and mesmerizes with costumes perfectly adorned with breathtaking crystals, and over-the-top stage props and accessories placed just so, including her signature martini glass bubble bath routine. Incidentally, the crowds are packed with Von Teese’s millions of female fans who draw inspiration from her old world, finely crafted sensuality.
Having been fascinated with her image for some time, I sat down with Dita Von Teese to discuss everything from her captivating appearance and stage performances to her thoughts about femininity, motherhood, feminism and her current tour, Dita Von Teese and the Copper Coupe.
Allison Kugel: How do you define femininity?
Dita Von Teese: I grew up admiring movie stars of the 1940s and 1950s. To me, that was always the epitome of feminine, and it made a mark on me from a very young age. I guess I have always associated that exaggerated femininity with the definition of feminine; the way a woman enhances herself with the tools in the beauty box, so to speak. I’ve always thought of glamour as feminine. That’s what I love for the outwardly feminine. On the other hand, I have a different closed door feminine as well, where I can remove those layers and get to the essence of what we are trying to exaggerate with the hair and makeup and the high heels and all the things we do to be hyper feminine in public.
Allison Kugel: Why not keep your natural blonde hair? And your birthname, Heather Sweet, was a sexy name. Why the change to brunette, and why the name change to Dita Von Teese?
Dita Von Teese: I started becoming Dita when I was about nineteen years old, so I wasn’t really thinking it through. I didn’t think about long term, and I certainly never expected to become famous for being a burlesque dancer and pinup model. It started as a hobby that I was doing, and in my little mind I thought by the time I was thirty I would be finished. And at the time, I was looking to Gypsy Rose Lee and Lili St. Cyr, and these [burlesque] stars from the past. These were choices I made when I was younger, and yes, I always liked the idea of that big Hollywood makeover. Rita Hayworth’s name was not Rita Hayworth, and Rita Hayworth had black hair and a widow’s peak that got removed with electrolysis. There was that big Hollywood machine, and I was always fascinated with the idea of these raw beauties becoming transformed into Birds of Paradise.
Allison Kugel: In watching you perform, you truly look like you’ve stepped out of a time machine from the 1940s and 1950s. It’s surreal. Are you comfortable living in this time period, or are there things about this era that you’re ill at ease with?
Dita Von Teese: I’m not living in another time. A lot of my clothes are modern, and I think about a lot of the modern things I do, such as updating my apps (laughs). I love so many things about modern technology. Although, I do have a huge collection of vintage clothing. There was a time in my life when I only wore vintage lingerie, I only drove my vintage car, I only wore clothes from the 1940s, but I’ve kind of evolved from that. The burlesque shows we produce are much different than a show you would have seen in the 1940s. We’re trying to capture the essence of those times, but the whole point is to evolve into something much different than it ever was; to evolve the history of burlesque. I never want anyone to think that I’m living in the past. You can look at the past and get inspiration from it, but it can end up being dusty and irrelevant if you don’t find ways to make it something that no one’s ever seen before. I do love to sit down with some of my favorite glamour girls of the past. I’m quite good friends with Mamie Van Doren who was a big 1950s bombshell and is still around to tell her stories. And I’m friends with Julie Newmar who, of course, was a great dancer and actress. I love to ask them about the past, and I love getting advice from them about the times we are living in and how to navigate being a glamour girl in modern times.
Allison Kugel: Would you ever consider, at least temporarily, sacrificing your brand and your hourglass figure to become pregnant?
Dita Von Teese: There are a few choices that I have made, like making a conscious decision not to have children, because I think it may be a good moment in time for some people to step away from that idea of feeling that it’s required. I think it’s a conscientious choice for modern times, because of over population. Throughout my life I always felt like I was going to quit [burlesque] and have a child, because I always thought I wanted them. More recently I have given thought to the unsustainable population growth and global climate change. Do I think it’s fascinating when women tell me that the most important and wonderful job they’ll ever do is raising a child? Yes. Then I think, “Oh wow, that’s interesting. I guess I won’t know what that’s like.” This is such a personal thing to ask a woman about, because what if I couldn’t have children? That’s not the case, but it’s such a personal topic.
Allison Kugel: I thought it was a relevant topic to discuss because you’ve spent so much time and energy cultivating this look, this body, this image. I would imagine it would be a big emotional undertaking to forfeit that for a pregnancy…
Dita Von Teese: One of the things that’s important to me is letting my fans watch me go through different stages of life. I think even if I had decided to have a child, or if I still decide to, it will be fun to navigate that. I just did an event where there were pregnant pinup girls, pinup girls with their little children all dressed up in 1940s clothes, walking them around. It’s not that much to do with losing my look or anything like that. There are so many other factors for me, like being in a relationship or not being in a relationship. Is this the right person to have a child with? I’m actually quite into fate. I try to control what I can, but I have always been about, “If it happens it happens.”
Allison Kugel: In your current show, Dita Von Teese and the Copper Coupe Tour you have another model on stage with you, Gia Genevieve. What inspired you to cast her in your show?
Dita Von Teese: I had always wanted to have a blonde bombshell in the show. I had a hard time finding this kind of quintessential “Playboy” blonde. I met Gia a few times over the years and she always had this effervescence, and she was sexy and fun. I knew she wasn’t a dancer, but I wondered if I could teach her how to do my bubble bath act, simplify it and have her get her personality across on stage. She’s a lot of fun to watch and she’s the perfect example of, you don’t have to be dancing all over the place and doing backflips on stage to be wildly entertaining.
Allison Kugel: Tell me about your collaboration with Absolut Elyx for the Dita Von Teese and the Copper Coupe tour.
Dita Von Teese: Being famous for bathing in a giant cocktail glass (laughs) I was open to a partnership with a cocktail company. I loved the ideas that Elyx had. They were just about beautiful, whimsical imagery that’s a tribute to what they do with their copper distillery. I was very familiar with their brand and loved the idea of making these tributes in the show to their imagery. I took a giant shell and dipped it in their signature copper. And I made a cocktail glass that’s a tribute to their style. We had a lot of fun creating the show and bringing it all together.
Allison Kugel: What other imagery on stage will reflect this tour’s name, The Copper Coupe?
Dita Von Teese: With every tour, I’ve redone a version of my martini glass act. I have a six-piece set of gigantic glasses at this point. I could have a giant cocktail party! I’m always thinking, “How can I one up that number and make it fresh and new?” For this tour, one of the most exciting parts is the costume. I collaborated with my longtime creative partner, Catherine D’Lish, we put our heads together and came up with the most extravagant costume we’ve ever done, to date. A big part of making the show was this gown. I can’t tell because I’m wearing it on stage, but from what people are telling me it lights up the entire room.
Allison Kugel: I know you’re the Swarovski queen. I’m assuming everything is crystallized…
Dita Von Teese: Everything is crystallized on this costume. We haven’t weighed it yet, but I keep asking to. It’s completely covered, and we’re using a new version of their aurora borealis stone. They’re cut like diamonds, and the effect is mind-boggling. People have been asking if my costume is electrified or plugged in. It’s really something to see under the lights.
Allison Kugel: You’ve been quoted as saying that burlesque is a new kind of feminism. How so?
Dita Von Teese: It’s become that for a lot of women. The feminist movement must be respectful of other women’s ideals of what it is, and what it means. More than ever, we as women have to respect each other’s choices. Like I always say, and this is the truth, my audience is mainly female. My social media following is about 85% female. When I started in the 1990s I had a lot of male fans, and when I was a Playboy model I had a lot of male fans. It shifted in the early 2000s when I came out with a book and told my story about why I loved pinup, why I loved burlesque, and what it meant to me to have that to look to for my beauty icons. That resonated with a lot of people and I could feel that was when it all started to shift, when I exhibited my vulnerability about why I love this. I like to say that it’s an alternative feminist movement.
Allison Kugel: What do you say to the women who cry out that burlesque is objectification?
Dita Von Teese: Something that could have, in the past, been considered degrading to women, I think that idea has been turned upside down when my audience is mainly female. They’re getting inspiration from this and feeling like they can harness their own sensual power in a different way and be in control of it. I would never say that striptease and burlesque should be for everyone. I have always loved things that walk that fine line, where one person looking at it thinks it’s inspiring and magical, and another person thinks it’s dirty and bad. It’s interesting to me the way people see things. I find things that are polarizing to be interesting.
Allison Kugel: Do you think femininity and feminism can peacefully co-exist in the #MeToo era? And have you found yourself in the crosshairs of a certain segment within this current feminist movement that doesn’t agree with your idea of feminism?
Dita Von Teese: Yes. But for me, I have always understood feminism to be about having choices. I don’t see how you can put rules on that, especially now. Whatever you do, there’s always going to be someone who criticizes it. I think more than ever it’s about sticking close to people who share your beliefs. You try to understand other people’s point of view, but you don’t have to take it for your own or feel like someone is pointing a finger at you. We have to stop pointing fingers at other people.
Allison Kugel: You perform your show all over the world. What are the differences in how burlesque is received in the U.S. versus in other countries?
Dita Von Teese: What’s interesting is that the striptease-style burlesque was invented in America, and it was thriving here in the 1930s and 1940s. That’s the funniest part about all of this. I had to go to France, England, Germany and Australia to get that big mainstream acceptance at first. I performed a lot in the UK during the early part of my career and I would do mainstream television shows over there. I could talk about what I was doing there, and I could go to France and do my show on television. They could show the pasties and the G-string, and it was fine with everyone.
Allison Kugel: In the U.S. there’s this strange sensibility where it’s okay to promote a film with a lot of violence, but it’s not okay to put overt sensuality into the mainstream.
Dita Von Teese: It’s not just sensuality, but decisive sensuality. That’s one of the things people have a problem with. If I had made a sex tape and I said, “Oh, I’m sorry I did that,” it would be more acceptable. As compared to me deciding to present striptease and eroticism and do it in this way because it’s decisive. It’s not “accidental.” I often think of that. Am I inspiring other women to embrace their sensuality in a way that they’re not apologizing for, and is that what upsets people?
Allison Kugel: You brought burlesque to the forefront during a time when it wasn’t part of the mainstream pop culture vortex. What advise do you have for other creative pioneers?
Dita Von Teese: I think I had it better in some ways back then. I feel lucky that I didn’t have the Internet to influence me when I started. I had to use my imagination. I didn’t have anyone to watch, except ladies from the past. There wasn’t YouTube. I had to really forge my own path and I’m grateful for that. I think one of the things getting in people’s way now is the feeling that everything has already been done, because they’re scrolling through Instagram. Or they’ll look through social media and just copy what other people are doing. They don’t have to rely on their imagination. I didn’t have others to measure myself up against. I’m not saying you shouldn’t be inspired by other people, and even if it appears that everything has been done before, there are ways of making it better or making it different.
Allison Kugel: The moral of the story is, there’s going to be some ridicule either way, so why not forge your own path?
Dita Von Teese: For #oldheadshotday, I posted my early headshot on Instagram and someone commented, “But your [eye]brows don’t look good.” I was like, “Listen. I was nineteen years old and I didn’t have a four-hundred page book about retro glamour called Your Beauty Mark (Von Teese’s beauty how-to book/Dey Street Books) to look at yet! I had to make all the mistakes so that I could tell you all the short cuts.” There are always people who must come first and experiment and make those mistakes in order for other people to pick up that knowledge. I certainly did that with burlesque queens of the past, looking at their pictures and thinking about how I could do it in my own way.
Allison Kugel: For people who have yet to go see a burlesque show, what will the experience be like for them to attend one of your shows, on the Dita Von Teese and the Copper Coupe tour?
Dita Von Teese: They will be very excited to see the diversity of my fellow cast members. You’re on a wild ride of beauty and glamour in its many shapes and forms, and it’s unexpected and inclusive. I think most people walk away thinking, “I’m a little bit like her. I can be like that, yeah!” My show is a warm and welcoming place, and it’s raucous; it’s wild! I’m really proud of the show as a whole, and people will experience the biggest burlesque show in history.
Image Credits: Phil Barton, Jesper Carlsen and Dimitri Scheblanov
Dita Von Teese is currently touring throughout the U.S., Canada and Europe. Purchase tickets to see Absolut Elyx Presents Dita Von Teese and the Copper Coupe at http://www.dita.net/shows/.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
By Allison Kugel
The Arquette family are a band of actors, artists, provocateurs and activists. With the image that David Arquette has crafted for himself as the family’s resident goofball, his newest film, a documentary titled, Survivor’s Guide to Prison, is a departure from the David Arquette persona people have come to know. His latest project champions a cause close to his heart and gives a window into another side of the actor as concerned citizen and defender of your personal freedom. Hitting theatres and on VOD February 23rd, David Arquette presents to you, the Survivor’s Guide to Prison.
David Arquette, along with his wife, Christina Arquette, heard the call by hailed documentary filmmaker and friend, Matthew Cooke (Deliver Us from Evil, How to Make Money Selling Drugs). They came on board Cooke’s latest documentary film and social movement, Survivor’s Guide to Prison, as producers, with actress Susan Sarandon joining the cause as the film’s Executive Producer.
This documentary film is an eye opening, unsettling and informative look inside America’s criminal justice system and the prison industrial complex, an industry that has continued to grow exponentially with no signs of slowing down. You’ll be introduced to the players - politicians, law enforcement officers, our judicial system and the prison-for-profit industry. You’ll gain a clearer picture of the inner workings of mass incarceration in the United States of America.
As stated on PrisonPolicy.org, “[The United States] has the dubious distinction of having the highest incarceration rate in the world.” According to SentencingProject.org, the number of people incarcerated in our American prison system has grown from 100,000 in the year 1925 to 2 million by 2015, with only 52.9% of prisoners locked up for violent offenses. We’re locking people up at staggering rates. This film examines why and explores some productive alternatives to our current punishment-based mass incarceration model.
Survivor’s Guide to Prison tells the story of how we as a society got to this place. You’ll hear the rules for surviving arrest, interrogation, a criminal trial, and incarceration, should you be convicted of a crime. You’ll hear evidence presented to you about a disturbing and growing trend of a guilty until proven innocent system that has taken hold, how to advocate for your own personal liberties, and a growing call-to-action for criminal justice reform.
The film is collectively narrated, and the cause explained, with on-camera appearances by Susan Sarandon, Patricia Arquette, Danny Glover, Danny Trejo, Ice T, Jesse Williams, Macklemore, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Quincy Jones, Busta Rhymes, B-Real, Q-Tip, Warren G and other notable figures.
You will also witness the testimony of two men who tell their excruciating true stories; Bruce Lisker and Reggie Cole, both of whom served lengthy prison sentences for crimes they did not commit. You’ll live their journey with them, from being falsely accused to conviction based on the presentation of circumstantial evidence, the impact of long-term incarceration and eventual exoneration and release.
David Arquette and company, present to you the Survivor’s Guide to Prison.
Allison Kugel: What attracted you to becoming involved as a producer on the documentary, Survivor’s Guide to Prison?
David Arquette: I was first aware of the project because I’m friends with Matthew Cooke, who is an amazing Oscar nominated documentary filmmaker, who worked on the documentaries Deliver Us From Evil and How to Make Money Selling Drugs. With Survivor’s Guide to Prison, Matthew highlights the prison system, how corrupt it is, and how it’s prison for profit. It’s a model that is outdated; it doesn’t work anymore. The punishment model has been proven not to be successful and it’s time for change. Matthew put a really amazing documentary together. My wife, Christina Arquette, and I watched an early cut and we both came on board as producers. We worked with Matthew and got a bunch of great people involved. Susan Sarandon is a producer on it, Gina Belafonte, Jesse Williams; just some really great people who have done a lot of great work to help change the prison system.
Allison Kugel: So many people came on board for this film. Adrian Grenier is also a producer on the film. Danny Trejo, Ice T, Busta Rhymes, Danny Glover, Deepak Chopra, your sister Patricia Arquette, and on and on. When people watch Survivor’s Guide to Prison, they will feel how deeply impassioned everyone who appears on screen is about this cause. Were there discussions off camera about why they all wanted to participate?
David Arquette: Danny Trejo, specifically, was so generous. He’s had family members who were directly affected by it, recently getting out of prison after being in for a crime they didn’t commit. He had also been in prison way back, a long time ago, when it was a different era, but it’s close to him. Danny sees what it does to communities. One of the things that’s so horrible about this current [Criminal Justice] system is that it takes parents away. The United States locks up more women than any other country in the world. You see how horrible it is, and the dangers of dismantling the family structure. The War on Drugs, and all these different initiatives to incarcerate people, has proven to be destructive to our society. A lot of the people who are involved with this project believe there is a better way that we can rehabilitate people, and treat them like human beings rather than animals, and imprison them.
Allison Kugel: Do you think The War on Drugs has been, at least in part, a war on minorities and on poorer communities?
David Arquette: Absolutely. The laws that were enacted during the crack epidemic, specifically; the fact that if you had crack rather than cocaine, you would get a far worse sentence. There are tons of people locked up for small marijuana offenses. It’s a dated model. They’ve noticed that people who get into programs when they’re locked away, they thrive. Whether it’s an art program, or they get schooling. So that’s what we are looking at. We’re trying to change things. We are working with an organization called Cut50, which is Van Jones’ organization. He’s really dedicated to cutting the current prison population in half. We’ve developed a shirt with Omaze.com, and it’s called the Dignity Shirt. We’re selling this shirt to raise money for legislation reform. That is the only way things really change, is if you change them within our political system. We’re also working to get women some basic human rights that they deserve. In a lot of states, if you’re giving birth in prison, they will have you shackled.
Allison Kugel: While you’re in labor?
David Arquette: While you’re in labor, yeah. Many women in prison are sexually assaulted. They can still be strip searched by men or watched in showers by men. There are several things we are trying to accomplish through the process of government legislation. We are fighting for basic human rights, and for people to be treated with respect, which in turn will allow them to have more dignity.
Allison Kugel: Had Survivor’s Guide to Prison been made in the mid-1990s during the time of the OJ Simpson murder trial and subsequent verdict, how do you think the events of that day would have impacted the messaging and direction of this documentary?
David Arquette: That was a flashpoint in our history, with the black community feeling targeted and feeling not heard, and they galvanized. There were many incidents during that time that were tragic. For example, when a young black woman was killed by a Korean business owner… there were a lot of issues during that time that came up. The interesting thing is that this whole prison industrial complex has grown since then and has become a profit stream for a lot of people. We still live in a country, and in a world, that has racial injustice all around us. It’s time to speak up and be honest about it, provide change and put money into communities that have been held back all this time. We really look at this movie as a movement rather than just a film.
Allison Kugel: What do you hope the public gains from watching this film?
David Arquette: It’s a little tongue-in-cheek, the title, Survivor’s Guide to Prison. We say that because we see people who have survived the prison system as survivors. Just calling people “prisoners” or “inmates” and giving them numbers, it’s such a way of de-humanizing them. So, the idea of this film is to bring some compassion back into the discussion. That’s what we’re trying to do with the stories we highlight in the film about two men who were wrongly accused and went away for decades (Bruce Lisker and Reggie Cole). It totally transformed their lives and changed them on such a deeply painful human level. We’re telling their stories, and we want people understand that they are more likely to be locked up in the United States than anywhere else in the world. If we are truly the land of the free, we have to start making laws that allow us to be free, and we have to recognize the difference between violent crimes and non-violent crimes. We need to start prioritizing and downgrading some of the sentences.
Allison Kugel: Do you think there is any way to ever separate politics from our Criminal Justice system?
David Arquette: I think the only way to change the Criminal Justice system is to change it through the political system. It’s where the real work happens, and the real change happens.
Allison Kugel: If a District Attorney is counting on a certain quota of convictions to get re-elected, how do you take that skewed dynamic and turn it on its head for the greater good?
David Arquette: That is part of the problem. Part of the problem is our bail system, not having public defenders that are up to par, and that really represent people. There has been some change with that. There are a lot of people going into that field that are doing it for the right reasons; they want to represent people who typically can’t afford a high-powered lawyer. But it’s true; in this country if you have money, the chances that you’re going away to prison are a lot less likely than for someone who doesn’t have the funds.
Allison Kugel: If you, David Arquette, were charged with a crime, chances are you would not go to prison, not for one day.
David Arquette: Statistically, compared to someone without money behind them, yeah. I have a far better chance. And, in the meantime, I’ll be out on bail. I won’t be sitting in a jail for a year or two until my case gets settled.
Allison Kugel: During the making of this film, did anyone bring up the phrase “white privilege” at all? The reason I ask is because it’s been said to me, and it stopped me in my tracks.
David Arquette: They didn’t, but it is a real thing. There is a lot of dialogue now and people are becoming “woke,” as they say. It’s time that we faced the truth about these things and realized, “Yeah! I’ve had it a lot easier!” I was a graffiti artist as a kid, so we would be out spraying art everywhere. If we got caught in a white neighborhood, we’d get taken back to our house and dropped off. I got caught in a white neighborhood by a black cop, and then I got caught in a black neighborhood by that same black cop, and then he really treated us a lot differently (laughs). We didn’t get arrested because they didn’t catch us in the act. But they knew we were up to trouble, so they did things like make us kneel on the concrete and slam our faces into the ground.
Allison Kugel: How old were you?
David Arquette: I was probably about sixteen.
Allison Kugel: Was this in LA?
David Arquette: The first time it was in Hancock Park, and the second time it was down on Jefferson and La Cienega (South Central Los Angeles). And it was, uh, my white privilege was taken from me (laughs).
Allison Kugel: Are there plans to take the film to Washington and screen it before congress?
David Arquette: We definitely want to take it to Washington. Christina’s (Christina Arquette, David’s wife and a co-producer of “Survivor’s Guide to Prison”) uncle, Mack McLarty, was Chief of Staff to President Clinton in his first term, so he’s got a lot of connections there. We’ll hopefully have a screening at the Kennedy Center, or somewhere where people can see it. A few months after it comes out (release date, February 23, 2018), it’s going to be on Netflix and then it will be out there for everyone to see it. We have a bunch of panels that we are putting together in New York and Los Angeles, where people can come and talk and share their feelings about this issue.
Allison Kugel: Why is Hollywood so liberal and so fiercely against the conservative agenda?
David Arquette: As artists, part of our job is to look around, see what’s going on, and to feel emotionally connected to injustice and what’s going on in the world. There are a lot of people in Hollywood who are very religious, very straight laced, and not your typical Hollywood kind of liberal. They are more conservative, but they are good people. I think what it really comes down to is that we want good people to thrive. We want good people to have opportunities, we want good people to make up our laws and become our politicians. I love people that are religious, that believe in Jesus, and who find hope that way; or people who are devout in their practice in other religions like Judaism or Islam. I love that dynamic because there’s a real sort of structure there. There is a real understanding of right and wrong. I do think that when you get into extremism on either side, it then becomes destructive and it becomes where you start saying, “Us and Them.” The Hollywood community wants it to be “Us.” I love the kind of movements that are happening, where you see on television the diversity of skin tones that are more representative of what our actual culture is, what our population is. We know from research that American culture and ethnicity is vast, and it’s ever-changing. We are a nation of immigrants, so it is about having that represented in Hollywood on the screen. It’s great to see people like Shonda Rhimes, and a lot of these voices coming out and doing great work.
Allison Kugel: What do you foresee the Arquette family legacy being in decades to come?
David Arquette: Ultimately, we’re performers; we’re entertainers. That’s what our past, and the history of our family is about. It’s been about entertaining people. It’s really what I’m passionate about. I like acting. I like making people laugh. I like the idea of somebody having a rough day at work and being able to zone out and watch something. On that note, this isn’t the film that does that (laughs).
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) No. It’s an engaging film, it really pulls you in and it’s a must-see. But it’s not an easy watch. Parts of it are actually heartbreaking to watch.
David Arquette: This film is about asking some important questions. And that is another side of entertainment, shining light on darkness.
Allison Kugel: Your grandfather was a comedian, your parents were actors, your siblings are actors. Is that something you’re hoping will continue with your own children?
David Arquette: My daughter Coco (Arquette’s thirteen year old daughter with Courteney Cox) loves singing and performing. She’s really good at it, and she’s got a great head on her shoulders about it. We’ve kept everything unprofessional, like afterschool plays and that sort of thing. We just want to allow her the time to grow up. Growing up in LA is already kind of slanted, and not completely grounded in reality. We want to allow her to have a childhood and not have to have the pressures of auditioning, rejection and all that stuff. It’s important.
Allison Kugel: What do you think is the right age developmentally and emotionally for your daughter, Coco, or any child, to go through the process of auditioning for acting roles?
David Arquette: Totally an individual thing. If she was really pushing us, like, “Listen, mom, dad, I want to do this, I want to audition, I think there’s something to that; a kid who’s so passionate about that being their life’s goal. But she’s been cool about taking it at a slower pace.
Allison Kugel: Out of all the Arquette siblings, who would you say is the most courageous, and why?
David Arquette: My whole family, I just love and respect them all. Rosanna is doing so much to stand up to all of the horrors of what’s happening in Hollywood, and in businesses in general. She’s really behind the #MeToo movement, and I’m really proud of her for that. She also supports tons of different charities. Patricia is incredible. She’s got GiveLove.org, that helps places like Haiti with their sanitation system and helps to provide clean water. Alexis was amazing; the way Alexis stood up for who she was. She was out and transgender before it was really talked about as much, and she really was a hero of mine.
Allison Kugel: I’m sorry for your loss.
David Arquette: Thank you. I miss her, but she was ready to move on.
Allison Kugel: Yes. I believe that. What is your favorite form of artistic expression these days?
David Arquette: I love painting. I took a Bob Ross instructional course, so I can teach people how to paint in the Bob Ross, wet on wet technique.
Allison Kugel: Bob Ross, the happy trees guy?
David Arquette: Yeah. I went to take a three-week course, where I learned how to teach his happy trees [painting] method. I work with an organization called Art of Elysium, that’s really great. We’re gonna go to hospitals and teach kids how to paint some happy trees. Painting is such a great stress reliever and calms my soul. But I love acting. When I get to work with really talented actors and directors, writers and producers, and dive into that and show what I’ve learned over my twenty-nine years of acting, I really love it. And when those things come together, and you get to work with great projects it really is a gift.
Allison Kugel: Is there a heavier, more serious role in you? A side of you that people haven’t seen?
David Arquette: I’ve done a few films where I got to tap into that and it’s always great when you have that opportunity, so I would love that. But my favorite thing is making people laugh. I love the sound of laughter. I used to say to people who were passing away, crossing over, I’d say, “Go towards the laughter.”
Allison Kugel: Instead of, “Go towards the light,” “Go towards the laughter.” I love that.
David Arquette: Thank you.
Survivor’s Guide to Prison is in theatres, on VOD and on iTunes, February 23, 2018.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
By Allison Kugel
Her beauty is luminescent, her conviction fierce. It’s a potent combination and why actress Logan Browning’s portrayal of student activist Sam White in the Netflix hit series Dear White People has struck a chord with younger audiences. The series, based off the 2014 movie of the same name, also created by Justin Simien, seems custom made to address the uproarious intersection where President Donald Trump’s politics and Black Lives Matter collide. More importantly, beyond its pop culture relevance, is the show’s ability to humanize a people and their collective point-of-view to a larger population of viewers.
Logan plays a biracial Ivy League university student, Sam White, host of a popular, albeit controversial, campus radio show titled, Dear White People. Her character’s radio show within a television show is a platform for Sam’s grievances, her bottomless questions, and the racial and cultural issues that continue to surface on ethnically diverse college campuses around the world. It also serves as the show’s anchor point, introducing each episode’s message and plotline. And if you think the first season was binge-worthy, you haven’t seen anything yet!
As Logan and I discuss the second season of Dear White People, streaming May 4th on Netflix, we segue from her thoughts on acting and developing the character of Sam to social and political activism, the emotional triggers behind race and color, and some of the most pressing issues that our younger generations face in the age of social media and our relentless news cycle.
It becomes clear to me half way through our conversation that actress Logan Browning shares the values and concerns of her television alter ego, Sam White, but with a graceful confidence and ease of spirit that continues to allude Sam in the show’s second season.
Allison Kugel: Typically, when I’m researching an actor, there’s a clear distinction between them and their character. With you, the unique challenge I faced is that I couldn’t clearly discern where your character, Sam White, ends and you begin.
Logan Browning: That’s an interesting observation. During season one, I was much further away from who Sam is. A lot of my portrayal of Sam was coming from a place of discovery and nervousness at taking on this role that Tessa Thompson originally played (in the 2014 movie, “Dear White People”). In season two, part of me becoming comfortable with Sam, was to stop fighting the parts of her that I thought were so different from me, when really they’re not. There are similarities between the two of us. With most characters I’ve played, I find myself pushing back on any similarities because I don’t want people to think I’m not playing a character. I find joy in bringing someone to life who’s very different from me. But part of why I ended up getting the role of Sam is because I do fall into who she is very easily. Though her perspective on life is different from mine.
Allison Kugel: How so?
Logan Browning: In terms of how she responds to the world, and some of her reasoning within her debates. I do believe that the longer you play a character, they naturally bleed into your real life. I’m not surprised that some of who Sam is may show up in who I am. I find myself saying some of the same quips that she does in my responses to things. I also find myself using what she says, like, “This has to be right, because Sam said it!”
Allison Kugel: Has she brought out the activist in you?
Logan Browning: It’s made me more comfortable in being an activist. I’ve always been drawn to giving a voice and a face to people who aren’t seen or heard. I feel like that’s a part of what comes with being an entertainer and being in the public eye. When people say that actors and musicians shouldn’t be policy adjacent, I think that perspective is ridiculous. They’re put in this position where they are in the public eye and people listen, so it makes sense that these two things go hand in hand. Because people are looking to my character, Sam, for that, they naturally look to me. It would be a huge disappointment to people if they saw that I was not speaking out on certain issues.
Allison Kugel: Do you feel compelled to speak out because of the weight Dear White People holds with its audience?
Logan Browning: If you scroll through my Twitter, I’ve been vocal all the way back. You can even dig up my MySpace (laughs), way before this show, and you’ll see! I watched the film, Dear White People (2014), when it came out. I saw myself in Sam when I watched the film. Did seeing the character of Sam in the film influence me? Maybe it did. Playing Sam only aides in this burning desire I have to speak out. But I don’t feel compelled by it.
Allison Kugel: You feel empowered by it…
Logan Browning: Yeah, I feel empowered by it, and I feel that being on a show like Dear White People makes me want to use my voice. I’m inspired by the people I’m surrounded by. I’m surrounded by so many young, influential artists who have great talent and great passion, and a desire to leave a mark that goes beyond their artistry. It’s a new kind of energy in comparison to when I first started acting at the age of fourteen.
Allison Kugel: What are some of the hot topics you guys discuss on set when you’re all off camera?
Logan Browning: On set, honestly? We goof off. If you’re a person who knows what it’s like to live a life of trauma or a life of less than and difficulty, then you know that the best therapy is laughter. And that’s what we do, we laugh a lot. It’s a part of our culture. Black people together just have a good time. When you get black people together, they don’t want to have a depressing time. Yes, heavy conversations can happen, and they do happen a lot. Sometimes they’ll happen in our group texts or once an issue comes up. More serious conversations will happen when people ask us about the show and we talk about those topics with other people. I may read something that one of my castmates said in an interview, and then I’ll talk to them about it and say, “Hey, I didn’t know you were affected in that way. Tell me about it…”
Allison Kugel: Can you give me an example of an issue that’s come up?
Logan Browning: I’ve always felt I understood and was aware of my privilege as a light skinned person in this world, and in my industry. I was always aware of it, but I’ve realized that I was still missing the mark until I started to see some of what my fellow actors have said in interviews. I’ve realized that there’s a larger part of their experience than I was understanding. I want to make sure I’m not just being an ally to the black community, but also addressing these more specific issues that are even more nuanced than I’ve personally experienced.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about the nuance of color within the black community. Being that you are light skinned and with green eyes, has there ever been a time in your life when you wished to have darker skin and dark eyes to fit in socially? Were there ever social consequences associated with your appearance?
Logan Browning: I’ve been grateful to have the parents that I had growing up, and I’ve never had any kind of self-loathing in terms of wishing to be something else. But I definitely grew up in a place where I wished people treated me the way I wanted them to. If they were treating me like I didn’t fit in, then I just wished to be treated differently, but I never wished I looked different.
Allison Kugel: Were you treated as something “other”?
Logan Browning: In both ways, I was. I’m on a spectrum. From white people I was treated a certain way, sometimes good and sometimes bad. Same for the African American community. I was accepted sometimes, and sometimes I wasn’t. It’s a spectrum that I exist on. It’s part of my experience, just kind of being stuck in the middle. As you get older it changes from wishing they would treat you differently to just trying to understand them, and not worrying as much about fitting in. You realize the reason you’re not fitting in is because you have a privilege that they don’t have. You have to understand their experience.
Allison Kugel: Your character Sam has mixed emotions about having a Caucasian father, and yet, she falls for a white guy on campus who has a similar energy to her father. She has mixed emotions towards both of those men in her life, and it’s an interesting parallel.
Logan Browning: Absolutely. She feels so comfortable with Gabe because he reminds her of what she has been around her whole life. She’s been around a white male energy her whole life. In the same breath, she’s also been around African American male energy because of her mom and her mom’s family. Sam does feel that pull towards Gabe, possibly because of her dad. Yet, because she has also been exposed to the strength of a black man, she wants to be around that as well. It’s difficult for her to try to navigate that. Deeper than what Sam’s dad looks like, if you look at the characters of both Reggie and Gabe (both love interests), they both have an intelligence that is mirrored in her dad. The reason she leans more towards Gabe than Reggie is because Gabe challenges her like her dad challenged her.
Allison Kugel: What are your personal rules about dating your co-stars? Yay or nay?
Logan Browning: Naaayyy (laughs)! Number one, I’m more attracted to the opposite of myself. I’m attracted to more of an engineering mind. When you’re on a set, you’re falling for someone else’s character sometimes. I think [actors] forget that you’re in hair and makeup all day and you’re seeing people in their most glorified state, so it’s very easy to fall in love with anyone you’re around. I would never.
Allison Kugel: I found an older quote from you that reads, “I don’t want people to know how I’m feeling, because it makes you more vulnerable.” Are you still that way?
Logan Browning: That was a part of something else I was saying, but I think that comes and goes with me. I know when it comes to being in a public space, I actually do like being really open with people. I feel like it’s my motive to educate the world that the people they see in the public eye are just like them, and they have issues just like them. I’m always trying to take celebrity off its pedestal. Even though there is power in it, I sometimes find myself trying to knock myself off any kind of pedestal I would ever be put on, because I don’t feel that way. So, in that way I do make myself open and vulnerable, and I feel like it does connect me to other people. I’m way more open publicly than I am if someone is trying to get to know me. I put my guard up and guard my heart. But there are certain personal things I can be vulnerable with. I don’t mind telling the world I get depressed sometimes. I don’t mind telling the world that I don’t live in a huge house. I don’t mind telling the world things that make me relatable. But there is a whole other part of Logan that I keep to myself, and that’s just because I want to be safe.
Allison Kugel: After the Parkland, Florida school shooting, some of the more outspoken students commented that the news media did not cover the diversity that exists at Stoneman Douglas High School. They focused their cameras on white students and white parents. What are your thoughts about this obvious exclusion?
Logan Browning: Every single act of gun violence is absolutely terrible, but it’s just so interesting that these young people’s voices are finally being heard now. It’s like, really? Now? In 2018? I’m not bitter at all about the fact that this movement is happening now because any kind of talk is good, and any type of move towards progress I’m on board with. But it is one of those obvious things where images that are more palatable are the things that people want to talk about. I think that’s why a show like Dear White People is so important. It puts these colored faces on the screen and forces the audience to begin to relate to these characters who possibly don’t look like them.
Allison Kugel: What do you hope Dear White People does for 18 – 21 year olds who are watching you from their college dorm rooms?
Logan Browning: I hope that the show is comforting for that specific age group. I hope that it’s a love letter for them, so that they feel like their voices are heard and time-capsuled and represented. We’re not re-inventing the wheel. These kids already exist on college campuses, and they are being super active in terms of being activists. I hope they feel seen and it further encourages them to do the great work that they already plan to do. I really hope and pray that older people will watch as well so they can understand what 18 to 21 year olds are experiencing, and what their world is now. It’s reminiscent of what their world might have been when they were younger, when the civil rights movement was happening.
Allison Kugel: This new generation is experiencing everything on steroids because of our 24- hour news cycle. I think that is something the older generation needs to fully understand, if they don’t already.
Logan Browning: We all are experiencing so much trauma and it’s not being addressed in terms of our mental health, especially kids. When I was in middle school, I would learn about what was going on if I came home and my parents happened to have the news on, or maybe if they were talking about it at school. But I didn’t have a device that was constantly telling me about every shitty thing happening in the world, 24/7.
Allison Kugel: I came of age in the nineties, which has been called our “break from history,” because tragedies seemed to be far and few between in mainstream America. However, they were not a rare occurrence in many urban communities. Looking back as a mature adult, I remember that acts of gun violence were happening on a regular basis in our urban communities. In my suburban community and in my own circles, I felt safe. So who really got that break from history?
Logan Browning: That’s a good observation.
Allison Kugel: Now that acts of gun violence are happening in the “good neighborhoods,” suddenly it’s everybody’s problem. Connecting those dots is humbling.
Logan Browning: It’s along the same vein as the Parkland activists. It’s great that everyone’s aware of it now, but what about all those people we’ve forgotten for so long?
Allison Kugel: Why do you think black men in our society are both feared and fetishized, simultaneously? This is a dynamic that’s depicted on your show, Dear White People.
Logan Browning: Slavery. That sounds like something Sam would say, but it’s our history. You take any people out of their homeland and you make them a hot commodity… you’re selling them up on how strong they are, how big they are, how hard they work. America created this. They created that dichotomy of what they imagine a black man to be.
Allison Kugel: What storyline are you most excited for audiences to see in the second season?
Logan Browning: Oh man, in a general sense, I love all of the characters’ stories and all of the individual storylines because you are really getting to know these people. I do love Coco’s storyline. I think it’s a great conversation starter. Every episode in the second season is a conversation starter, which is more what I look forward to than any one storyline. I just know I’m excited about the issues that are covered this season.
Allison Kugel: Finish this sentence: “Dear White People…”
Logan Browning: It’s so funny, the other day, Justin [Simien, Creator of Dear White People] said, “Dear White People, You’re Welcome.” (Laughs) I think it’s “Dear White People… whiteness, blackness; all of it is a creation. It’s a human device that we have created. More specifically, it’s one that white people in history created, and it’s malarkey.” It’s now something that we all have to mill about it, but it’s a complete fabrication. We have different experiences, yes, but we are all the same. In order to get to the point where we all see each other as the same, we would have to first go back and dissect every life experience each of us have had before we can wipe the slate clean and say, “Yup, we’re all the same. Back to square one.” Whiteness and blackness are malarkey, but in order to get to that place, we would have to better understand each other.
Season two of “Dear White People” premieres May 4th on Netflix.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
By Allison Kugel
From playing Curtis for two seasons on ABC’s megahit, Black-ish to starring alongside Tracy Morgan and Tiffany Haddish in the TBS hit series, The Last O.G., multi-hyphenate actor-writer-entrepreneur, Allen Maldonado, is a modern-day renaissance man. He’s the ideal fit for the role of Cousin Bobby, Tracy Morgan’s instigating but well-meaning sidekick. The Last O.G., created by Oscar winning filmmaker, Jordan Peele, is part of a 2018 wave of #blackexcellence sweeping Hollywood.
The show’s irreverent humor is inspired, thought provoking, and hilarious, as it manages to tackle the issues of post-incarceration societal re-entry, fatherhood and the gentrification of Brooklyn, New York.
Maldonado’s character, Cousin Bobby, attempts to help Tracy Morgan’s character “Tray” in his quest to turn his life around and put his family back together. YouTube and Instagram videos aside, I couldn’t remember the last time I laughed out loud at my screen. Allen Maldonado’s comedic genius lies in the art of setting up the joke. Allen sets them up, and Tracy Morgan drops the hammer on the punchline. Morgan and Maldonado are a classic comedic team in the making.
Allison Kugel: What has working alongside Tracy Morgan on The Last O.G. taught you about great comedy?
Allen Maldonado: I love being observant, taking in my surroundings and my audience, and being able to improvise at the drop of a hat. Anybody who has ever watched Tracy work knows he is very spontaneous and raw. He says what’s on his mind. Coming from other people, some of it might be construed as inappropriate, but that’s what makes Tracy so special. He can say things that, if someone else said it, it might be seen in a negative light. But when he says it, it’s hilarious. Being in that type of space where you can make people laugh in that way, that’s what I’ve learned from working with Tracy.
Allison Kugel: Jordan Peele is the creator of this show and he covers so many issues, while making people laugh. The Last O.G. examines the concept of getting a second chance after being incarcerated, the gentrification of Brooklyn, and the importance of fatherhood. Beyond the laughs, what is The Last O.G. communicating to its audience?
Allen Maldonado: It’s about second chances at life as Tracy’s character is released from prison after serving fifteen years, second chances with his family, including my character Cousin Bobby, and with his children. And a second chance with the woman that he let down before going to prison (played by Tiffany Haddish). It’s not so much about building a relationship with her based on the past, but about building that relationship for the future and co-parenting his kids with her. What makes this show special is that we have a lot of dramatic tones because of the subject matter. TV audiences go in with the assumption that this show is a sitcom, but I’ve heard people say many times that the show is a lot deeper than they thought it would be. Same as in real life; there are things that are fall out of your chair funny, and other things that will make you fall out of your chair from crying. We have a perfect balance of that in our show.
Allison Kugel: In the episodes I’ve watched so far, there hasn’t been much co-parenting going on with Tray’s kids. How involved will Tray and Cousin Bobby be in Tray’s kids’ lives, in upcoming episodes?
Allen Maldonado: There’s a natural progression that takes place. He’s been in prison for fifteen years, so she’s got to feel him out and get an understanding of who he is now. Who she knew was the man who was locked up fifteen years ago. You’ll see a natural process we will go through with the kids and that relationship. In upcoming episodes you’ll see them be more and more involved in everybody’s lives. That said, the story leaves a lot of room for mistakes and comedic situations.
Allison Kugel: You have a history with Tiffany Haddish going back to the beginning of both of your careers. Tell me about working with Tiffany, back then, and now…
Allen Maldonado: Just being able to see her star rise over the past couple of years, knowing her several years back, when we did a television pilot that never saw the light of day… from our first interaction meeting her on that set, she was hilarious back then. To be able to see her grow into the star she is, and the beautiful person she is, I couldn’t be prouder to call her my co-star on this show.
Allison Kugel: What qualities did you see in her back then that made you say, “She’s going places.”?
Allen Maldonado: She was true to herself and organically real, with a leading type of mentality. That’s a quality that Tracy [Morgan] shares as well. A lot of superstars have that confidence to say, “This is who I am, and take it or leave it.” She was always assertive in that way, and her style of comedy always resonated with me. It’s real and coming from her truth. The world is now seeing her talent, and it’s her time.
Allison Kugel: Your character, Cousin Bobby, is a classic comedic sidekick. There have been many classic comedic sidekicks throughout television history. Did you borrow inspiration from any of those?
Allen Maldonado: Cousin Bobby came from a real place. I didn’t really draw from a past television character.
Allison Kugel: Did you draw inspiration from your own life?
Allen Maldonado: I drew upon my life and different family members I knew growing up, and that one cousin who has always been by himself and when he finds you it’s like he’s being resuscitated back to life. Suddenly, he’s driven to do things he was never driven to do before, because of your presence and the way he looks up to you. That’s where Cousin Bobby came from for me.
Allison Kugel: Will we see an evolution take place with Cousin Bobby?
Allen Maldonado: I would hope so! I’m very excited to say that I’m on the writing staff for the second season of the show. Certain things I can’t reveal; writer’s code.
Allison Kugel: But you’ll have a say in what happens to your character…
Allen Maldonado: Of course! That’s one of the pluses of being in the writers’ room. You can definitely drive certain story lines.
Allison Kugel: Cedric the Entertainer is another great talent on this show. His character runs the halfway house where Tray lives after being released from prison. Will your character, Cousin Bobby, cross paths with Cedric the Entertainer’s character, Mullins, in the second season?
Allen Maldonado: We’re going to work that out. That was something I was disappointed in, that in Season One it didn’t happen. But we will cross paths in Season Two! It’s something I will make sure of. He is such a legend and incredible talent, and an incredible person. And I love to learn, so being able to share some comedic blows back and forth will be amazing.
Allison Kugel: You recently spoke with Janice Williams, a reporter at Newsweek, about gentrification and how it’s covered on The Last O.G. Tracy Morgan’s character, Tray, goes away in 2002. When he’s released from prison in 2017 and he comes back to his old neighborhood in Brooklyn, it’s this upper middle class, suburbanized enclave, and he has to adjust. What are your thoughts on gentrification of certain urban communities?
Allen Maldonado: There are pros and cons. Being that certain urban communities were underserved, it’s unfortunate that when these communities are finally getting served, the people that were in need are being forced out. I grew up in a rough neighborhood and didn’t have much. It’s one of those things where if we had a little more assistance or a little more help, there are so many other individuals aside from me who would have made it out of those tough circumstances. When help finally arrives and you are unable to receive it, it’s sad. Growth is always good, but not being able to service individuals who need it the most, that’s my problem with it. Being able to co-exist, it’s what I would push when it comes to gentrification. There has to be balance.
Allison Kugel: Will the show’s creator, Academy Award winner Jordan Peele, make an on-camera appearance next season?
Allen Maldonado: I don’t know. I would love for that to happen! But I don’t know. We will see…
Allison Kugel: Growing up in your neighborhood, did you have someone you looked up to the way Cousin Bobby looks up to Tray on The Last O.G.?
Allen Maldonado: Yes, I did. I grew up around some rough characters, and some that would be considered the underbelly of society. I had the opposite of what most people would think these individuals would influence you to do. They kept me away from being in gangs. They kept me away from selling drugs. They kept me away from doing a lot of negative stuff because they saw something special in me. The reason they made those choices is because, and this is sad, but they felt they had no other option. And again, that goes back to being able to serve these communities with additional help. A lot of these kids are boxed in and don’t have hope due to their surroundings and a lack of resources and opportunity. They brainwash themselves into thinking they can’t achieve their goals in life. Something that my O.G.s around the neighborhood stressed to me was education and staying away from drugs. They kept me away from that stuff because they knew it was wrong, but that was their only option. I have nothing but good things to say about the O.G.s that I grew up with.
Allison Kugel: Better to have a flawed father in the picture whose made bad decisions and been incarcerated, or no?
Allen Maldonado: No matter what position a father is in he’s going to be flawed. It all depends on the individual. Having proper guidance doesn’t necessarily fall upon your father or your mother. Your surroundings by the people in your life will inspire you and inject inspiration and hope into your life. I grew up without a father. My father passed when I was young, so if he was here I don’t know how it would be. I’ve been driven by having to be independent and by not having that presence in my life, and sort of being my own father. I don’t know if I would be as driven as I was if he was here.
Allison Kugel: Being raised by a single mother, what did that teach you about life?
Allen Maldonado: She’s the hardest working person I’ve ever met. She would wake up at four o’clock in the morning and not get home until 8 PM. She would take two trains to commute to work. She was also studying in college and taking courses, all in the process of taking care of three kids by herself. I feel lazy compared to my mother. To be able to do all that she did with no help and no family nearby. Knowing how torn she must’ve been to not be able to spend the amount of time you would like to with your child because you have to provide, that psychological type of stress is more impressive to me than the actual physical work.
Allison Kugel: Has Tracy Morgan discussed his 2014 accident with you, and how it changed him as a person and as an artist?
Allen Maldonado: We discussed it because we share similar near-death situations. I was twenty-one and I was hit by a drunk driver, walking, and the driver was going 65 mph. We both can attest to the fact that scientifically we’re not supposed to be here.
Allison Kugel: But you are supposed to still be here, because you’re here…
Allen Maldonado: That is correct. The impact that something like that, that powerful of a situation and you being able to stand strong again with a certain amount of faith and understand that you have a purpose that, no one that shares that kind of story can explain it to you. It’s like, how do you explain love? How do you describe it? These near-death situations, the power of God, and the strength of your spirituality growing from this near fatal event, we both share that, and we’ve had conversations about how the grass is greener, the sky is bluer. And we both understand that you’re not promised tomorrow. Now I live by a motto that every time I go to bed I ask myself a question, “If I don’t wake up tomorrow, can I look down at myself, at my body, and say I worked as hard as I could to fulfill my dreams?” If I can’t say that, then my day was not fulfilled. That’s how I live my life now. I would never want to look back once this chapter is closed and say, “I could have done more.”
Allison Kugel: You were a writer for the Starz series, Survivor’s Remorse, about a young man from an underserved urban community who finds fame and fortune as a basketball player, and he feels guilty about his success. Do you have survivor’s remorse, or survivor’s guilt, about your success?
Allen Maldonado: I do. That’s why I do so much for the community. I have my kid’s foundation called Demo Nerds. We teach film acting and filmmaking to foster kids. My survivor’s remorse is in understanding the psychological difficulty that these kids have, thinking that they don’t have options. It’s very difficult for a child to listen to their parents, go to school and do everything right, when they’re struggling to keep the lights on and put food on the table, and everybody that’s doing something wrong is going around with expensive cars, jewelry, and things that people want. For me, visual representation is everything. Speaking with these kids and letting them see that there are successful individuals who look like them, sound like them, talk like them in different areas of business, entertainment, or what have you, is what I strive to inject into the community.
Allison Kugel: And you’re helping filmmakers showcase their work with your app, Everybody Digital.
Allen Maldonado: We’re the first streaming short film app. We showcase short films from around the world. We have thousands in our catalog right now. We’re also producing original content on the app and it’s free and available on the App Store and Google Play. To all my short filmmakers, if they want to submit, all they have to do is go to EverybodyDigital.com. The app is giving more exposure to short films. Since the 1980s they were taken out of theatres and kind of put into a student film world where the average consumer doesn’t know these short films exist. So we are re-introducing short films to the world.
Allison Kugel: You play Litty in the upcoming remake of the movie SuperFly. Tell me about the re-make as is compares to the original movie from 1972.
Allen Maldonado: I wouldn’t consider it a remake, I would call it a remix. The premise is loosely based off the original, but it’s not a period piece. It’s set in modern times and there’s a different spin on it, being that we shot it in Atlanta. It has the same style and flair as the original SuperFly movie, but in a different beat and rhythm. It’s heavily inspired by the original. I haven’t seen the final cut yet, so I’m excited to see it as well, and June 15th is right around the corner. I know the red carpet is going to be fantastic and a lot of people are going to be paying homage to the original [SuperFly movie]. I look forward to everybody looking superfly!
Photo Credits: Courtesy of TBS
The Last O.G. airs Tuesdays at 10:30 ET/9:30 CT on TBS. Check local listings.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
This interview was produced in partnership with TireAgent – the easiest way to replace your tires. Installation at home, or anywhere you choose; and with The Wellness Universe – Mind, Body, Spirit, Planet… your complete wellness resource.
By Allison Kugel
The life of Damon Dash appears to be an epic triumph to some, a Shakespearean tragedy to others. It depends on where you’re standing when you look at him. After speaking with the hip hop mogul turned entrepreneur and filmmaker, I can tell you Dame Dash’s story is more nuanced and complex; and is still being written. Dash hopes his new film, Honor Up, a semi-autobiographical story about the code of street honor, executive produced by Kanye West, and starring Dash, Nicholas Turturro, Michael Rispoli and Cam’ron; will give audiences an authentic portrait of who he is beyond the media’s checkered narrative. He tells me the unwavering code of honor depicted in the movie has informed every choice he’s made in his adult life.
A kid from Harlem, New York, who lost his mother in his youth, Dash quickly took on a hustler’s mentality, adopting the OG street code which propelled him from promoting nightclubs and rap artists to reaching the apex of the music industry with the success of he and Jay Z’s Rock-A-Fella records label, and the urban lifestyle brand, Roc-A-Wear. It was Dash’s unwavering vision and tenacity, and his loyalty to artists he believed in, that launched the careers of Jay Z, Kevin Hart, Kanye West and his ex-wife, fashion designer, Rachel Roy.
Since splitting from Jay Z and dissolving Roc-A-Fella records, he’s been painted by the entertainment industry as an incorrigible and unruly outsider; a man who wouldn’t drink the Kool-Aid or fall in line with Hollywood or music industry politics. As Dash made clear to me during out conversation, he refuses to ever bow down to corporate demands, and therefore chooses to self-fund his many projects, from film and art to fashion. After years of personal and professional heartbreaks, Dash found an unwavering ally in longtime love and business partner, Raquel Horn. Horn is Dash’s creative muse and collaborator, while Dash is Horn’s mentor and idea facilitator. Together, the two have launched Dame Dash Studios, Dash Diabetes Network, their Poppington fashion line, and the beginnings of an independent movie studio. Damon Dash is a man in his creative renaissance… and in love.
Allison Kugel: Tell me about the most influential people in your life… birth to present day?
Damon Dash: My mother was a big influence in my life. She passed away when I was fifteen. I would say Muhammad Ali was a big influence on my life, my OG Daniel (Dash’s childhood mentor, Daniel Jenkins, the inspiration behind Dash’s new film, “Honor Up”) is one of the most influential people in my life from when I was younger. That was one of the reasons why I made the movie, Honor Up.
Allison Kugel: Your mom passing when you were fifteen, how did it impact who you became?
Damon Dash: It made me fearless. The one thing I was afraid of up until I was fifteen was that my mother would die, and then she did. It made me very aware of my mind, in that, if you worry about something it usually realizes itself. I try not to worry about anything. Because my mother spoiled me, and she wasn’t there to spoil me anymore, it made me the business savage that I am. I wanted to maintain that lifestyle. At the time, my pops wasn’t going to be able to give me that, so I had to do it myself. I think in a strange way, if my mom was still here I wouldn’t have made the history that I’ve made, because nothing would have felt so urgent. Someone can teach you how to survive, but you really don’t get those skills until you have to. [Her passing] made it where I had to, and she taught me well.
Allison Kugel: You refuse to take a paycheck. You’re someone who has to have ownership in everything you do. Speaking for myself, I can say there was a time in my life when I asked myself if I was for sale, or if I was not for sale. Can you recall a defining moment when you asked yourself that same question, and determined that you were not for sale?
Damon Dash: I’ve been a street entrepreneur since I was very young, since my mother died, because I had no choice. I’ve never had a boss. I’m from Harlem and I think I’m cooler than everybody, so it would be hard for me to have someone telling me what to do. It’s not about working for somebody, because I always have equity. I have something, and then I may need to take it to another level, so there would be a business relationship or a partnership. But I would always walk away from certain partnerships, because I didn’t like the moral value of that person. I would probably end up having to strangle them because it’s very frustrating when people don’t have principals and morals. It’s offensive when someone that I don’t respect presents me with an opportunity to work for them and tries to control me. I don’t even know what that means, working for someone else. It’s not a mathematical equation that makes sense to me.
Allison Kugel: How do you define God?
Damon Dash: You can’t define God. That’s how I define it. It’s undefinable. I can’t fathom God; just one entity controlling everything. I have no idea, and the 90% of our brain that we can’t use or access, we can’t really fathom what that is. Maybe if I had access to more of my brain, I could begin to fathom that.
Allison Kugel: You don’t have a sense of knowing, or belief about it?
Damon Dash: If there is a God, it’s a woman.
Allison Kugel: And why do you say that?
Damon Dash: Why wouldn’t it be that way? Men are stupid. God could never be a man, because men are too insecure. There’s wars, we fight. It’s illogical and stupid. That’s all insecurity. I don’t think God would have those characteristics.
Allison Kugel: What did you learn about love from your time with Aaliyah?
Damon Dash: I learned exactly how happy love can make a person. It was a feeling that I never knew existed before. What it did teach me is to recognize love, and to appreciate love. It also taught me never to mess with an artist, because they’re always on the road. You never see them. The more you love them, the more you miss them. It made me appreciate what I had in that moment, and it made me recognize love with my girl Raquel (Dash’s girlfriend and business partner, Raquel Horn). I knew that feeling. It was familiar to me, because I felt that with Aaliyah.
Allison Kugel: Describe Aaliyah’s character; the person you knew her to be.
Damon Dash: Aaliyah loved life. She loved to laugh. She was color blind, a great soul, a ridiculous amount of swag and great taste. And those were the same exact qualities I saw in Raquel. For me, the greatest thing about Aaliyah was that we were both from somewhat of an extreme circumstance, you know, urban, in the hood. And we both had such a desire for things that were so unhood. But in those environments that were unhood, we would still have that hood swagger and we could laugh at things. Aaliyah and I used to spend a lot of time laughing at the corniness of life. We both found people’s insecurities very funny.
Allison Kugel: How many times in your life have you had that feeling?
Damon Dash: Two. Aaliyah and Raquel.
Allison Kugel: Would you like to see a movie made about your beginnings, during the rise of Roc-A-Fella Records, and that time in your life?
Damon Dash: That’s inevitable, whether I make it or somebody else does. I am very aware and clear of what I have done, and my impact on this world. They’ve already made Aaliyah’s story, and I was in that. Let’s say they don’t do my story, everyone else’s story that I’ve been a part of, I’ll be in there. At the end of the day, I like to control my likeness, so I’ve already started that process. This movie, Honor Up, is about me and my ideals growing up.
Allison Kugel: We’re going to get to the movie, so don’t comment on it yet because we’re going to go in-depth with it.
Damon Dash: I love when a woman tells me what to do (laughs).
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) What is your opinion about how the media has cast you over the past decade? What have they gotten right, and what have they gotten wrong?
Damon Dash: I’ve been able to manipulate them exactly the way I’ve wanted to. I’m very aware that an independent person like me that does things on his own, that my success would mean other people’s failure. Everyone that’s getting robbed, and everyone that’s doing the robbing, would fail. I’m the guy that doesn’t rob and does everything honorably. If I can show that I can do things honorably, that would make other people need to do things honorably. The way they were portraying me in the newspapers, it wasn’t very intelligent.
Allison Kugel: Do you think you’ve been caricaturized?
Damon Dash: In the beginning, it was more brazen and arrogant, and about me pouring champagne on women, which was a character. That was Champagne Dame. They never showed Damon Dash the businessman; Damon Dash, the single father raising his son alone from the time he was eight years old; Damon Dash living with Type 1 Diabetes; or the man who’s running all these different companies.
Allison Kugel: Where did the negative portrayals of your character come in?
Damon Dash: I didn’t want to do Rock-A-Fella anymore. I wasn’t trying to just do music. I didn’t want to be typecast. I wanted to do fashion. I wanted to do things that were multicultural, and I wanted to run around the world. And I knew walking away from Jay Z, that all Jay Z fans were going to start with me and try to get at me. I know that controversy sells papers. At that point, I was like, “Yo, I’m about to Makaveli myself (a reference to the late Tupac Shakur). I’m out. I don’t really need to be here no more. I want ya’ll to leave me alone.” I needed everybody to think I wasn’t doing well so nobody would ask me for nothing no more. But all those years, I was owning Rachel Roy, a $75 million company. I was running around the world, I had galleries and things like that. But Dame was under the radar. And they left me alone. I always thought it was funny that they made me the underdog. I could have been nice. I could have worked with these people that have no morals and no values and spent their money instead of having to keep re-investing my own money.
Allison Kugel: But you walked away.
Damon Dash: I decided freedom was priceless, happiness is priceless. I needed to raise my daughters. It wasn’t conducive for my daughters in a hip hop environment, because you have a bunch of young, insecure, aggressive men. And I didn’t want to have to go to jail for nothing. I realized that with the internet there is no buffer, and I can tell the truth whenever I want. No one can stop me. Whoever wants me will come find me, and they’ll see the truth.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your new movie, Honor Up. You wrote and directed this movie, you play a central character, and you put up your own money to make it. How long has this story been in you, wanting to come out?
Damon Dash: I always knew I would tell this story, but what made me want to tell it now, and in this way, was a moment when I was hearing a lot of things about people I was close to from my past, that contradicted all our morals and values. It bugged me out, because these were the people I respected the most. I just couldn’t believe it, and it hurt. Then there were other things going on that were bringing me down. [Director] Lee Daniels (Precious, Lee Daniels’ The Butler) owes me $2 million. He’s doing well and he’s running around, and he’s not paying me. The shit is pissing me off. Where I’m from, he would have ended up in a trunk. You know what I’m saying? I can’t do those things, and I’m not going to do those things. So I made a movie about it. I want people to understand my morals and principals, why I don’t look the other way and who taught me. I also ran into my OG (a mentor of Dash’s named Daniel Jenkins), who I hadn’t seen in about twenty-five years. He was a guy who was very influential in the neighborhood. Because he was cool with me, all the dangerous guys looked at me a certain way as well, so I never had to be scared. One day I saw him walking across one of the toughest blocks in Harlem and he had his kids with him. He was fresh, his kids had little motor cars and they were fresh, and I was like, “That’s the kind of dad I want to be.” I want to be that guy as a dad. That was probably the most impactful lesson he ever taught me, because I’m a great dad and that’s more important than anything. When I finally got back with him, I knew I had to make a movie about our story.
Allison Kugel: This movie, Honor Up, will help people to better understand you and what makes you tick.
Damon Dash: I think people need to know the rules. Maybe people aren’t living by them now, and that’s the reason I kind of stay in my bubble. Maybe now people will understand why I don’t compromise, why I won’t bend over for a dollar. Because I was taught the right way by certain kind of people. With this movie, I want people to hear the voice that taught me, from the voice that taught me. When you see this movie, you’re going to see my real OG, the voice I heard when I was fifteen.
Allison Kugel: A big theme in Honor Up is the street code of not being a snitch, not talking to the police. Let’s set up a scenario. In December 1990, John Gotti was arrested by the FBI and NYPD. He was indicted on multiple counts of racketeering, extortion, jury tampering and murder. He strongly believed in the oath of silence he took as a “made man” with the Gambino family. He didn’t provide any information to the government; he didn’t strike a deal with prosecutors. John Gotti went away for life and he died in prison. Weighing everything: family, life, everything… had that been you, would you have stuck to the street code like he did, and gone away for life?
Damon Dash: You’re joking right?
Allison Kugel: No. I’m not joking.
Damon Dash: If you’re gonna do the crime, do the time, period. Two people sign on to a contract, whether everybody else’s principals are different, you sign on to a contract, and you have to abide by it.
Allison Kugel: You do know that a lot of guys don’t abide by it.
Damon Dash: That’s why I made the movie. That’s why I got out of the streets. I knew that at some point I would have to kill, or I’d have to go to jail and I would have to do the time.
Allison Kugel: You would not make a deal or rat anybody out. You would go away for life.
Damon Dash: Yeah. If I did the crime? Yeah. That’s the game. You think I would be so low as to put one of my friends in jail? Someone that I hung out with, I know their kids, I know their girl? Just so I don’t go to jail, I put him in jail? Nah, I couldn’t live with myself. If you make a conscious choice to do something, you got to stand behind it. Now if you’re a civilian, and let’s say someone accused you of doing something you didn’t do, you never hustled and all that other stuff, you didn’t sign on to that game. That’s a different story. But for someone that signed on to the game, you know you’re not supposed to be doing that.
Allison Kugel: Is there a spiritual component to your beliefs?
Damon Dash: I understand spirituality. I read The Seat of the Soul [by Gary Zukav]. That book changed my life. That was actually the connection between Aaliyah and me.
Allison Kugel: Did you read that book together?
Damon Dash: All of those books, yes. And I made my whole crew read that book. Me and Aaliyah, that was our connection. We read all of those books. That book scares me, because when she died I had all those books around me. I had one book called, When You Lose Your Soulmate right on the bed. I was so into that, that I almost felt like it was to prepare me for her death. If I hadn’t read those books, I don’t think I would have dealt with it the same.
Allison Kugel: Have you read, Many Lives, Many Masters by Dr. Brian Weiss? That’s my favorite one.
Damon Dash: Yes, I did. I read so many of those books. That’s what got me through [Aaliyah’s] death. But I had so many of those books scattered around my room. At every bed post I had something related to the soul and the evolution of it. I think I’m about at a deep purple right now.
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) Your crown chakra is fully activated.
Damon Dash: I’m floating.
Allison Kugel: Kanye West executive produced your movie, Honor Up. The two of you go way back to when you launched his music career. What was different about working with Kanye on a film, versus musically?
Damon Dash: This time I’m the artist and he’s the businessman. Whereas, I used to showcase his art, he’s now showcasing mine. He used to play his records for me. Now, I was coming back and playing cuts of the film for him. It was a total role reversal. It was a great example of the OG being happy that someone younger than you can have more power than you with certain things, and can help you. You build people, so they can build you. I wasn’t expecting him to do all that he did. You never know what Kanye’s going to do, but I know that he’s inspired by art. It was the first time that, instead of me helping somebody, somebody was helping me. He gets it. Some people don’t understand that helping people makes you the happiest. The happiness that Kanye got from helping me, it was contagious.
Allison Kugel: Can you see you and Kanye West forming an ongoing partnership with a film production company?
Damon Dash: We just started one, that’s what we’re doing! You know me; I don’t play. I hit you with flurries. I’m prepping to shoot my third movie right now. This film was the first time, to my knowledge, that I have ever seen Kanye put his name on something that he can’t control. The fact that he acknowledged my art in that way, shows that this is some real art. Kanye is not going to co-sign something corny. But the respect level was there, which is what I appreciated the most.
Allison Kugel: What do you say to people who feel that a movie like Honor Up, which does depict street violence, is perpetuating a stereotype, or that it’s a negative influence on your younger fans?
Damon Dash: Any movie that’s about war, you have to show the war to learn from it. Whoever looks at it like that, isn’t from the street. They don’t understand. I’m not trying to preach to the converted. That was my reality, and that’s what I learned from. That’s what smartened me up. I hope that people can see every element in this movie. The story is authentic. There’s so many different artistic levels. It’s not just bullets. It’s about the message. It’s art, and I think anyone who really looks at it will recognize it as art.
Allison Kugel: When you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, which is foremost on your mind, making money or making art?
Damon Dash: Making art. Never making money. I think money is overrated. That’s why I spend so much of it. I don’t even want to hold it; get it out of here. It makes people go crazy. I wouldn’t do anything for money that I wouldn’t do for free.
Allison Kugel: A lot of people may not know that you are a Type 1 Diabetic and have been since the age of fifteen.
Damon Dash: I made it public a long time ago, but people don’t talk about those kinds of things. I always thought it was important to bring awareness to it, because I’ve had it since I was fifteen and I have noticed all the misconceptions that come with it. It’s a 24-hour disease. And for me, as a diabetic, I always want to hear about another diabetic’s story. I know if they are winning, that I can win. And there are a lot of celebrities that have it, and they don’t want to talk about it. I’ve never understood that. They think it’s a weakness, whereas I think it’s a strength. I want people to know that every great thing I’ve done, every time I’ve made history, it’s always been as a diabetic. We started a network called the Dash Diabetes Network. We talk about diet, working out, mental well-being and just being healthy, overall. When you’re a diabetic you have to live a healthy lifestyle. You have no choice. I’m a vegan. Well, let me say I eat a plant-based diet. I can’t say I’m completely vegan, because I still own a leather jacket or two and I have leather seats in my car. Rocky (Dash’s nickname for his girlfriend and business partner, Raquel) has created a vegan handbag as part of our Poppington fashion line.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your network, Dame Dash Studios. It features your films, your radio show, musical projects, your Poppington fashion line, Dash Diabetes Network and your personal travels around the world. It’s like a VIP ticket to all things Dame Dash. Tell me about the vision for this studio…
Damon Dash: At the end of the day, the direct to consumer relationship is the new wave, and it keeps me independent. I can stay uncensored and I can say what I want; can’t nobody fire me. I can do whatever I want, and above and beyond anything, I can pass it down to my children. I can pass it on to my wife. Raquel is wifey for lifey. She is the one who inspired me to embrace my artistic nature after watching me make everybody else famous. Falling in love, embracing art, that’s why I say that I’m purple right now (referring to the color associated with spirituality), because I’m elated. I’m happy. I just love the fact that I’m being artistic, that I’m being unapologetic about my point of view and fearless about speaking on my art.
Damon Dash’s movie, Honor Up, hits select theatres and On-Demand February 16, 2018.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Allison Kugel: When you stepped off the Roseanne set for the last time in 1997, did you ever think, in a million years, that you’d be playing Becky Conner all these years later?
Lecy Goranson: No (laughs), I didn’t! Being back has made me realize the time I missed when I was away. It’s an interesting feeling that hit me, that the show continued without me. Everyone was still together after I left. I had a lot of mixed feelings about it. Not regret, but I thought, “Wow. I really love these people and I made a move, but it’s been such a blessing to be reconnected with everyone.”
Allison Kugel: You’re referring to your character Becky being re-cast with actress Sara Chalke during the fifth season of Roseanne. There are three characters in television that were famously re-cast during the height of a show’s success. You’ve got the two Darrens from Bewitched, the two Lionels from The Jeffersons and the two Beckys from Roseanne. I’m sure you’ve talked with Sarah Chalke at length about her taking over your role all those years ago. What was it like for Sara to step into your shoes halfway through the series run?
Lecy Goranson: I never really had a chance to talk to her until we were on Amy Schumer together. We went out to dinner and it was interesting to hear what she had to say, which was a lot! Anyone who gets a job like that, it’s very exciting, especially if you’re a small-town girl from Canada, which she was. I was talking with some of the other actors about what it might feel like to be a guest star on our show. For me, I know all these people and I’ve worked with them for years, but I still feel like I really have to bring my A-game. There’s a heightened feeling of responsibility in working with such amazing people. I can only imagine how intimidating that was for her, beyond the sheer joy of having a job like that. Stepping into a character that was already established, it was challenging for her. But she stepped into an environment where there were a lot of loving people, and talented people to help her bring her game up.
Allison Kugel: I’ve heard you say in several interviews that you left Roseanne during the height of its success to have a normal college experience. I have to ask, what prompted you to become a child star in the first place?
Lecy Goranson: I was a dancer and there’s a place in Evanston, IL called the Noise Cultural Arts Center where they have dance, acting, painting and different classes in the arts. I was taking dance classes, and right down the hall was the Piven Theatre Workshop, started by Byrne and Joyce Piven who were coming from The Second City [Comedy Troupe]. I started taking classes there and Burt and Joyce were affiliated with an agency in downtown Chicago. They asked me to go on a couple of open calls. My parents wanted me to be involved in activities because they were working a lot. So that was the amount of their vested interest, just to keep me busy and productive. I did two auditions and the second one was for Roseanne. I think they hired Laurie Metcalf, who was also from Chicago, and I, because they wanted to have some actors that were actually from the Chicago area to give the show that flavor. But yeah, it was a total fluke.
Allison Kugel: Now it makes sense to me that you would one day, as a teenager and young adult, realize you wanted to step away and just be a college student.
Lecy Goranson: Yes. But after college I had to say to myself, “Look, you love being an actor and this lifestyle of suffering (laughs). This is what you really want.” It’s funny when you have to parent yourself.
Allison Kugel: Twenty years later, what are you now bringing to the role of Becky Conner on this Roseanne reboot?
Lecy Goranson: I’ve been doing theatre for so many years. Like any skill, you build muscle by repetition. I’ve also had the privilege of working with great actors in the New York theatre community. The character of Becky is really strong, grounded and wise. It’s interesting re-approaching a character in this way, with all of my own life experiences. And I feel it when I am there; I feel my age! I’ve been around the block, but I think back to my former self as a child and I think, “What was it like?” It’s hard for me to remember a lot of it. There is a part of youth that is so unconscious, and there’s such a beautiful thing about that in retrospect. That unconsciousness gives you a lot of bold confidence.
Allison Kugel: As an adult, have you sat and watched the old Roseanne re-runs? And do you feel connected to it?
Lecy Goranson: This is a bit of an inside joke. I feel like, “Oh yeah it’s me, but it feels like it is so long ago and distant. Michael [Fishman] and Sara Gilbert have children, and they would sit down with their kids to watch the episodes and tell their kids, “This is what I used to do.” I haven’t really done that. Although you can’t stay away from it, because it’s on so often if you’re flipping through the channels. One of the interesting things about re-visiting the show is to not only have memories come back for me, but to hear other people’s memories, and then to also have this shared feeling come up sometimes of, “We don’t remember anything at all!”
Allison Kugel: Tell me about growing up with Roseanne Barr and John Goodman as your TV parents and spending countless hours with them as you were growing up.
Lecy Goranson: I’ve always felt really close to John. Our personalities are similar, and I have always felt very connected to him. I hate to use the term “genius” because people throw it around, but they both do have a genius for the work. Roseanne, the way her mind thinks comically, is really advanced. And John is such an incredible actor. His genius is in being so present in every moment and tweaking the script in his own way. He is one of the most present actors I have ever been around. The two of them together are just like a couple of big kids, encouraging each other to go further. They are a great team, and they bring out the best in each other. There is a side to both of them that is just total goofball, and they both love humiliating the kids in a scene. Yes, they get off on embarrassing us. Now that we’re all back together I remember just how much we always laughed.
Allison Kugel: How about your TV siblings Sara Gilbert and Michael Fishman, who play Darlene and D.J.? What’s the relationship like between the three of you?
Lecy Goranson: I live on the east coast and they’re on the west coast. Apart from Laurie Metcalfe and John Goodman who do theatre in New York occasionally, I don’t see everybody that much. Sara and I are very close. We spent all this time apart and then when we were reunited, I remembered how well we know each other. You can’t help but be close like that if you see each other every day for however many years, and you’re the only two young ladies on the set. Michael is just a doll. He’s turned into such a mature, loving, wonderful person. I feel a lot of pride for the fact that we have turned out pretty good.
Allison Kugel: How did a Roseanne reboot come together?
Lecy Goranson: It had a lot to do with Sara. I also know that Roseanne was thinking about doing it for a long time, independently. Michael and Roseanne had been talking about it. It all came together, and Sara took on the role of Executive Producer. When Sara reached out to everyone, we all said, “Let’s do it!”
Allison Kugel: I love the fact that everyone was game to do it. If you are known and beloved for playing an iconic television character that people identify with, and you are a part of pop culture history, that’s amazing! What’s wrong with that?
Lecy Goranson: I think also the fact that our show is about a family, that there is something appealing about keeping that family unit alive and revisiting them at a later time. Of course, Roseanne is a special show to me, but I do think it’s a special show to a lot of people and the family dynamic that we have makes it special.
Allison Kugel: Does this Roseanne reboot bring the same flavor, and the same meat and bones as the original?
Lecy Goranson: Oh, absolutely! There are certain episodes we did where we all thought, “This is vintage Roseanne.” It felt like an original episode.
Allison Kugel: Why should people tune in to watch the Roseanne reboot?
Lecy Goranson: Because it’s the best show on TV, of course!
Listed by Sports Illustrated as one of the greatest wrestlers in WWE history, few wrestlers, or entertainers for that matter, have done more to brand their name than Chris Jericho. From the eponymous List of Jericho, a bit he made famous on the WWE stage, to his rock n’ roll persona which has become part of his identity from the wrestling ring to his heavy metal rock band, Fozzy, “Jericho” is synonymous with an over-the-top drive that knows no bounds, and some say, an ego to match. We discuss the motivation behind his unrelenting self-promotion, and work ethic, throughout our talk.
Talk is Jericho is his popular Westwood One podcast show; But I’m Chris Jericho, a streaming comedy series, is going into its second season (CBC Canada); and a collaboration with Hot Topic clothing stores on a T-shirt featuring his likeness and emblazoned with “Jerichoholic,” ensures his name and image are everywhere these days.
In Chris Jericho’s new book (the fourth one he’s written, if you’re counting), No Is A Four-Letter Word, Jericho describes himself as an underdog who set his sights on professional wrestling and rock n’ roll, while growing up in a small town in Winnipeg, Canada. As a teen, he dreamed about making it big, though he says he got little support from friends and acquaintances in his small “prairie town” as he puts it. It was his father, a retired NHL hockey player, and his grandmother, an enthusiastic wrestling fan, who gave him the confidence needed to pursue his dreams.
He favors using his name, Jericho, to saying “I” or “Me,” when speaking about himself, and pulls no punches when discussing his success, both, inside and outside the ring.
Chris Jericho is determined to give the biblical Walls of Jericho a run for its money with respect to historical value.
Allison Kugel: Tell me about your stage name “Jericho.”
Chris Jericho: It just sounded cool. I originally thought up the name “Jack Action,” and the guy I was originally training with started laughing at Jack Action (Laughs). At the time I needed to think of a name quickly, because I had a show coming up in three weeks. I was into a band called The American Dream, and they had an album called Walls of Jericho. I was in my car, I looked at that album and I thought, “That’s a pretty cool name.” I was also a big fan of the show Teen Titans back then, and there was a character called Jericho, although he was the character with the worst superpowers. But the combination of the two and I thought, “Chris Jericho.” When I was training in Canada, they wanted me to be a country western type of character called Cowboy Chris Jericho, and I was mortified about that because I was a rocker guy. In my very first match, I’m listed as “Cowboy Chris Jericho” from Casper, Wyoming.
Allison Kugel: Then you quickly made your transition to a rock-n-roll character, I’m assuming.
Chris Jericho: Well, yeah. I mean, my character wasn’t necessarily a rocker at that point. I just wasn’t a cowboy (laughs).
Allison Kugel: I read your latest book, No Is A Four-Letter Word. You’re a Mountains in the Distance kind of a guy. You don’t rest on your laurels. It’s not about the mountain that’s already been climbed; it’s about that next mountain in the distance. Even though you’ve done a million different things, is there a dream or goal yet to be fulfilled?
Chris Jericho: I don’t really have an answer for that, because I don’t set goals or boundaries for myself. I react and go with the flow of opportunities that are offered to me. When I was a kid I wanted to be in a rock n’ roll band and I wanted to be a wrestler; those were the two goals. People didn’t think I could do either of them. But here we are 27 years later. Once you get that kind of confidence and success rate, then you become dangerous. Now I’ll try anything and most of the time it’s a success. I don’t do anything for the money. I don’t do anything that I don’t feel that I want to do. Therefore, it all flows together because I’m just being me and committing to something, and wanting it to be good. It’s when you don’t feel right about something. It’s like if you were writing a piece about someone that you’re not really feeling, and not into. It’s never going to be as good as something that you’re excited about and want to do. Even talking about But I’m Chris Jericho, this is an idea I had in 2005 when I left the WWE and took a break because I was burned out. I went to LA to study acting. I’d go to these auditions and there would be ten guys who looked exactly like me. You go in and do one line like, “These pretzels are making me thirsty.” And it was like, “Thank you. Next.”
Allison Kugel: I like the Seinfeld reference…
Chris Jericho: I’d be thinking, “But I’m Chris Jericho. I have a fanbase and notoriety.” I learned in Hollywood that nobody gave a shit. I thought, what would happen if Jericho got blackballed from wrestling and had to start from scratch as an actor? That’s where the idea came from for But I’m Chris Jericho. I pitched the show for 8 years! It was finally sold in 2013 for a first season. Then it took four years for the second season to be made.
Allison Kugel: Why is that? I watched the first season of the series, which was hilarious. Loved it! Why did it not get picked up for a second season until 2018?
Chris Jericho: That’s the million-dollar question, because it was a hit and it won a lot of awards. At the end of it, I realized it was really good, and we created this universe with all these wacky characters; Scott Thompson was in it, Colin Mochrie was in it from Who’s Line Is It Anyway. Andy Kindler from Everybody Loves Raymond and Bob’s Burgers. These are really funny people. We won awards at the Los Angeles Film Festival, Toronto Film Festival, Vancouver Film Festival.
Allison Kugel: How did the show get revived?
Chris Jericho: CBC Network in Canada called a year ago and they wanted to do another season. It’s really gratifying. If I believe in something, I will do everything I can to make it happen. After we did the first season, and you were talking about the mountain, I wanted to do more. I knew there was something to this show that was special and funny. Thankfully, finally, CBC agreed with that. If you really want something to happen, sometimes it doesn’t happen easily, and that’s okay. You have to believe in it and stick with it, even if it’s not easy.
Allison Kugel: Do you consider yourself to be a great manifester?
Chris Jericho: I look at it as being positive and believing in yourself, and eliminating negativity. That was something I learned way early on in my career when I was starting out as a wrestler at nineteen. People see me now as one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, but that wasn’t always the case. Everyone laughed when I originally said I wanted to be a wrestler; literally laughed. One time at church the pastor said, “Chris is going to Calgary to be a wrestler,” and he started laughing. I eliminated those people. Anyone who thought that I couldn’t do it or gave me any kind of negativity, I didn’t allow it to permeate.
Allison Kugel: What do you teach your three kids about making their dreams come true, or do you simply lead by example?
Chris Jericho: Just set an example, because they’re young right now. One thing I don’t tolerate in my house is if they say, “Well, I’m not good at this,” or “I suck.” No, you don’t! If you want to be good at something, you have to put the time in. That’s the thing with a lot of kids these days, or maybe always; trying once or twice, and if it doesn’t work out they go on to the next thing. If you really want to do something, for example, if you really want to play basketball, it takes more then three free throws at the net to get good. You’ve got to spend hours practicing. That’s what I show my kids, that hard work always wins.
Allison Kugel: Denzel Washington has a saying he uses a lot that I love – “anything you practice, you get good at.”
Chris Jericho: It’s true. And some people do have a natural talent for something. I could play guitar every day, and I’m not necessarily going to be Eddie Van Halen, but I could probably get to be a pretty damn good guitar player. And don’t worry about what this guy down the block is doing or succeeding at. It’s about, how can you improve yourself on a daily basis? How can you get better at what you want to do? Don’t worry about anybody else. Be happy with what you’re doing.
Allison Kugel: Which opportunity came first for you, the WWE or your band Fozzy?
Chris Jericho: I started playing music when I was thirteen or fourteen. I began wrestling at nineteen. The wrestling took off first, but I still always dabbled in the music. Then I finally met the right guys, and the music came to fruition in 1999. I was finally able to start working on music because I had finally met the right guys that I wanted to play with. I’ve always had to keep both vocations separate, because a lot of times a celebrity will start a band more as a novelty and sometimes they’re not really all that good at it. I knew I would have to work twice as hard to get respect because of who I am, but that’s fine. There is a select group of people who can do both. Taylor Momsen of Reckless, Jared Leto with 30 Seconds to Mars, or Johnny Depp with Hollywood Vampires. If you’re good, you’re good. A good song and a good musician is a good song and a good musician. Doesn’t matter what else you do on the side. I don’t mind going the extra mile to prove to people that Fozzy is a great rock n’ roll band. Judas (the group’s 7th studio album) has been in the top ten for nine weeks on radio, and doing ten million streams.
Allison Kugel” Do you feel that Fozzy has arrived? Or do you feel you have something more to prove?
Chris Jericho: We’ve definitely arrived, and we’re bigger now than we’ve ever been. If we stopped tomorrow that’s fine, but until we’re headlining arenas, headlining stadiums there’s always more you can do and bigger you can get. But I’m not worrying about what the Rolling Stones are doing; I’m worrying about what Fozzy is doing. As of right now, we’re the biggest we’ve ever been with a legit hit song, so yeah, we have arrived. We’ve had some other hit songs, but Judas is on a completely different level. I call it The Judas Effect. The awareness of the shows and the awareness of the band, they’re playing it at hockey games now.
Allison Kugel: Do you see Fozzy, at some point, headlining at Madison Square Garden?
Chris Jericho: Absolutely. If I didn’t… quit now. I grew up in Madison Square Garden. My dad (retired NHL player, Ted Irvine) used to play for the New York Rangers. I remember sitting in the crowd at three or four years old watching him play, and hating the fact that it was so loud. The crowd was so loud, and fast forward to 1999, I made my first appearance at Madison Square Garden for WWE. Then fast forward a couple of years later in 2008, John Cena and I had a cage match that broke the box office attendance record for the WWE Main Event at MSG. It all comes full circle. And, yes, now I want to take Fozzy to Madison Square Garden.
Allison Kugel: I want to talk about your dad, Ted Irvine, who as we were discussing, was a successful NHL hockey player with the New York Rangers. Was there ever a time when you wanted to follow in his footsteps to become a professional hockey player?
Chris Jericho: No. After my dad retired we moved to Winnipeg [Canada], and everybody plays hockey there; it’s just what you do. I had fun playing hockey; it was a great childhood experience. But honestly, I just wasn’t very good at it. There were four tiers. Tier 1 were the best guys, tier 4 were the worst. I was always a tier 3 guy. They would have tryouts, and I could never even get to tier 2. I wasn’t the worst player, but I wasn’t the best. My dad knew it; he knew I enjoyed it, but the passion wasn’t there. I was always passionate about music and wrestling. Once I let him know what I wanted to do, he was super supportive. We drove out to Calgary to check out the wrestling school, the year before I left to go in 1989. He drove me out there to see what his son was going to be getting into. He was always very, very supportive because he knew hockey wasn’t my thing.
Allison Kugel: Why wrestling?
Chris Jericho: Why does the world rotate? It always appealed to me. My grandma used to watch it when I was a kid. She’d freak out and yell and scream at the TV. There was always this Saturday trifecta of Bugs Bunny, wrestling and then hockey on television. That was just a Saturday night. She always loved wrestling, and I always enjoyed it and watched it with her. Hockey was always about the team. I liked that wrestling was about the individual and the characters and personalities. Because I was really into music, I liked that a lot of wrestlers had a kind of rock n’ roll type of attitude and image. I became mystified by it.
Allison Kugel: The theatrics of it all; the combination of theatrics and athleticism in one…
Chris Jericho: Exactly, and characters… the personalities. That’s where it all started. I became a big wrestling fan. I was watching a local wrestling show from Calgary and they advertised the wrestling school on there, and that was it. You’d see wrestling shows on television that were from New York, California, Chicago. Back then, New York might as well have been Mars! How the fuck was I going to get to New York? But Calgary, I could get in my car and drive there in thirteen hours. I decided I wanted to go to Calgary and train how to wrestle.
Allison Kugel: You talk in your book about your experience in Saudi Arabia, when you were there wrestling for the WWE. You were shocked that women in Saudi Arabia were not permitted to attend your show. You had a lot of female fans there who weren’t able to come see you. They stood outside by the road to catch a glimpse of you or get a wave from you, because that was the closest they were going to get to seeing your match. In light of what is going on in the United States right now, with women fighting for equal treatment in the workplace, and in general, and the fact that you have daughters, what kind of impression did that experience leave with you? How do you feel about it, and would you go back to Saudi Arabia?
Chris Jericho: I’m not going to protest it. When you travel the world, different countries have different customs. Different religions have different customs; different races of people, depending upon where you are, have different customs. You can’t mess with it, you know? When in Rome, as the saying goes. I’m not going to protest going to Saudi Arabia because they don’t allow women to go to the shows. I think it’s ridiculous, and it hurt the business. You go and play to a 70% full house because there’s only guys in there. The vibe is different. It’s not as fun, because you don’t have that female element and the reaction they give you. And why wouldn’t you want women there? But that’s how it is. I can’t change the entire Muslim tradition and the way they do things. I just observe. It’s like the Prime Directive in the Star Trek universe. You can observe, and if you can’t change it, don’t try to.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about your podcast on Westwood One, Talk Is Jericho. Do you feel like something of a journalist when you are interviewing guests for your show?
Chris Jericho: I don’t do interviews in that way. It’s more of a conversation. It’s more about relating, talking, connecting and just having a great conversation. There aren’t questions or a specific structure. When people leave my show, they leave thinking it was a fun show and they were excited to be a part of it. It’s more about being curious and personable, and respecting people who have accomplished something, whether it’s the most famous of actors, hall of fame musicians or a guy I went to high school with. People follow me because it’s Jericho’s show, not so much because of who I have on.
Allison Kugel: I read you’re making an appearance at WWE Monday Night Raw this year. Can you tell me about this appearance?
Chris Jericho: They’re having their 25th anniversary show. A bunch of people are coming back to be involved in the show, and they asked me to do it. It’s not going to be the Full Jericho Experience, and I don’t want it to be because I don’t want people to think I’m coming back. It’s just one more cameo to say “Hi,” be involved and to be appreciative of the history of the show and all the contributions that I’ve made to it.
Allison Kugel: Do you think you have a big ego?
Chris Jericho: Absolutely. Not in a dangerous or bad way, but you have to be aware of who you are and what you’ve accomplished. You don’t brag about it, but ego isn’t necessarily a bad thing. You talk to anybody that’s accomplished anything and they’re going to have a little bit of an ego, because you know how much you went through to get it. Like you said about Denzel, you practice something enough, and you get good at it. Well if you practice something and you become good at it, you become one of the best at it, how could you not have an ego? But there’s still a way to be humble and have an ego, if that makes sense. Someone giving you accolades and their undying admiration, that’s a pretty cool thing. To know you’ve changed somebody’s life or influenced somebody’s life in a positive way, it’s very powerful. That is very humbling and one of the reasons I still love doing what I do after 27 years. A lot of people rely on me to entertain them and to help them out of situations where maybe they’re having a bad day. They can have a laugh on me. I also know that when I walk down the street, 9 times out of 10, someone’s going to want to take a picture or say hello, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing to have that sort of ego. If it is, then I’m guilty of it. I don’t think it’s possible to not have an ego when you have been doing as much as I have and had the level of success I’ve had over the years.
Allison Kugel: You’re now 47. What are your thoughts about turning 50? What does the number 50 signify in your life?
Chris Jericho: Nothing, really. I just had this match in Tokyo (at the Tokyo Dome for New Japan Wrestling) and it was a great match. People were calling it the best match of Jericho’s career, and saying, “Who can believe he did it at 47?” I don’t think of myself that way. I think of myself as someone who’s still in his prime. Because of an age, people are supposed to say that you’re not? Is aging going to happen? Of course, it is. You can’t stop time. But for now, at 47, I feel like I did when I was 27. But I’m a lot smarter and a lot better. Fifty? As long as you still try these days, you can still look good, you can still be cool, and you can still contribute. I saw the Stones last year. Mick Jagger at 74 was still the best front man in rock n’ roll. Not a great front man for 74, a great front man, period! I saw Ann-Margret the other day, she’s 75, and still amazingly gorgeous. There’s no retiring at 55 with a gold watch, anymore. My dad still works at 74. Why shouldn’t he?
Allison Kugel: So, Chris Jericho at 50 will be a non-event?
Chris Jericho: Jericho at 50? What happens if at 50 I have a better match than I had at 47? What happens at 50 if Fozzy has a Number 1 song? I’m much smarter now than I was when I was young. As long as my attitude and drive don’t go away, it doesn’t matter what age you are.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Kind, conscientious, courageous and refreshingly candid, Ms. Vivica A. Fox has proven that as Hollywood careers go, second acts are often the sweetest. The multi-hyphenate actress-director- beauty entrepreneur-author is embracing life and not looking back, except to pull from her well of wisdom for her new memoir, Every Day I’m Hustling. And if you know Vivica like I got to know her during our conversation, you’d think the book’s title quite fitting. She enjoys hard work and has no plans to slow down.
Born Vivica Anjanetta Fox on the outskirts of Indianapolis, she went by Angie Fox, one of four siblings being raised by divorced mother who worked overtime to provide for her children. Her childhood home was hectic but loving and provided fertile ground for Vivica to aspire for things grander than her midwestern upbringing.
After high school, she made her way to Southern California to attend college, all the while seeking out opportunities in Los Angeles to model and act wherever she could. It was in LA that Angie became Vivica A. Fox. She worked her way through the ranks on sitcoms and daytime soaps, and in 1996 got her breakthrough role opposite Will Smith in the classic blockbuster, Independence Day. Next came a string of fan favorites including Set It Off, Soul Food, Two Can Play That Game, Kill Bill Volume I and II, and a string of subsequent roles in film and television, including Larry David’s sharp-witted houseguest, Loretta Black, on Curb Your Enthusiasm and Skye in the campy Sharknado franchise. Her eclectic career has kept her on the move for nearly three decades.
In 2016, Vivica joined the cast of the smash hit television series, Empire, playing conservative suburbanite Candace, Cookie Lyon’s (Taraji P. Henson) older sister and character foil.
During our interview we covered everything from movie stardom and maternal instincts to social media drama, setting boundaries and finding love.
Allison Kugel: When are you Angie and when are you Vivica? When do you take off the Vivica and become Angie from Indianapolis?
Vivica A. Fox: Well first off, that’s Angie Fox from 38th and Emerson in Indianapolis (laughs)! I’m Vivica Fox when I hit that red carpet and I’m ready to slay the game. That’s what I do. But I love that I have in my life, and in my journey, learned when to be Angie Fox. And that’s mainly when I’m with my family, time off, hanging out with my godchildren, having my Me Time and learning to take Me Time. That’s when I’m no makeup, baseball cap, chilling and blending in.
Allison Kugel: Do you prefer yourself that way?
Vivica A. Fox: Oh my gosh! To be honest with you, the older I’ve gotten, the more I prefer it. I work so much; I’ve been so blessed and so busy lately that I enjoy when I can have that Me Time. In fact, today I don’t have to be on. That’s what I really love about being with my godchildren. When they see me, I’m just G.G. or G-ma. G.G. stands for Gorgeous Godmother. G-ma, I don’t know where they got that one from, but I have five godchildren. Two of them call me G-ma and the other ones call me G.G. They like hanging with me. Not the drama or the glamour, they just want me.
Allison Kugel: I love the part in your book where your godson, Christian, sees you all done up as Vivica A. Fox, and he gives you that side eye like he doesn’t recognize you, and you say, “It’s okay, I’m just wearing my Vivica costume.” Then he asks, “You’re still my G.G., right?” And you reassure him that it’s still you.
Vivica A. Fox: It’s funny because he was just a baby the first time he saw me like that, and he was like, “Who are you!?” He was so used to seeing me in my tracksuit and baseball cap. But now at seven, he kind of likes it when he sees the reaction I get from people. He’s done a couple of red carpet events with me and he knows the difference between the two.
Allison Kugel: Coming from the Midwest, your father was a school administrator, your mother worked for a pharmaceutical company, so you really had no ties to entertainment, or Los Angeles for that matter. What gave you that spark of courage, that spark that made you believe that you could become a successful actress?
Vivica A. Fox: I was introduced to the world of fashion and modeling by Madame King, my late auntie. She had her own beauty salon back in the day. She was the first one to cut my hair and put me on a runway. I was kind of bitten by the bug at thirteen. From that point forward, I just fell in love with magazines and fashion. Then I went to go see Michael Jackson in concert, and Diana Ross in concert. I had never seen African Americans being so fabulous, and I was like, “Where do they live? That’s where I’m going! That’s what I want to do.” I decided that during my senior year in high school. But I had to trick my mama (laughs) and tell her I was going to college in California, and I did go to college. But I would be sneaking up to Hollywood and going to modeling agencies. I had a girlfriend who was an actress, and I used to read lines with her. She would say, “You’re pretty good at this, you should try it.”
Allison Kugel: Your book is part memoir and part motivational guidebook for success. Tell me about your mentor, or mentors…
Vivica A. Fox: My mentor would have to be a good friend of mine, and my first acting coach, Sheila Wills. I’m her two daughters’ godmother. Sheila, I met when I was doing [the daytime soap opera] Generations. She took me under her wing, and she would work with me with auditions. I would go into those auditions and just nail them. I attribute my success to her. She would say, “Vivica, you’ve got to stay ready. You got to be ready. You’ve got to take care of yourself.” And people who inspired me to be who I am would be Diana Ross and Pam Grier.
Allison Kugel: Do you know that you’re incredibly sexy? Is that something you’re aware of?
Vivica A. Fox: Well, okay now!
Allison Kugel: I’m not pulling your leg. You really do ooze sensuality. Do you know that?
Vivica A. Fox: Thank you! I appreciate that. Got to keep it tight and right, girl (laughs)!
Allison Kugel: More so now, than twenty years ago, in my opinion…
Vivica A. Fox: Maybe because… No, not maybe! Because I am comfortable in my own skin. I’m very comfortable with me. I have embraced my womanhood through my pluses and my minuses. I’m good with me right now, so that’s what you’re seeing. My spirit is happy, more than anything else. It’s taken awhile, and that’s something I want to share with people. My book is a motivational memoir. I, too, have fallen down and had to figure out how to get back up and create new chapters for myself. I want to encourage, enlighten and inspire other people.
Allison Kugel: Why did you choose to share your journey with menopause in the book?
Vivica A. Fox: It’s part of life. It’s going to happen. And it’s like you just asked, “Do you know that you’re sexy right now?” But do people also know that for the last few years, that’s what’s been going on in my life? I embraced it and I got in front of it. I didn’t let it define me or make me want to whittle away. I don’t know why with women, we can’t talk about our bodies and what we go through, share it with others, and not feel like we have to hide that from people. I’m sharing it, and I got in front of it and took care of myself. I really feel like it made me take good care of myself.
Allison Kugel: And being that your image is sexy, you weren’t afraid of putting that out there…
Vivica A. Fox: No, not at all. You’re going to have naysayers and people that are going to try to come and say something, and they can. But I’m still me. It doesn’t change who I am. I’m still all woman.
Allison Kugel: When it comes to social media feuds and this clap back culture we’re living in, when do you take the high road and not respond, and when do you feel the need to clap back?
Vivica A. Fox: I will clap back occasionally, but to be very honest with you, if it’s not necessary, I don’t like that. I’m not one of those people who became famous by being a controversial celebrity. Normally, I’ll click on who that person is and see if they’re even worth it. If it’s somebody that you can tell is wanting to make TheShadeRoom or seeking attention, I just block them. They’re not worth it. When I clap back, it’s when somebody comes at me or I have to set the record straight.
Allison Kugel: Technology has made it very easy for people to say something mean spirited or join in the angry mob. For me, I try my best to practice the art of what I call Non-Reaction, where I feel like every time I don’t react I’m passing that next spiritual test. But occasionally, something will get me and I’ll react. And then I’ll wonder, was that a failure on my part, or was it warranted in that situation? Do you share that same internal struggle?
Vivica A. Fox: It’s an internal struggle with me too. Some days I’m like, “Why did I give that person my energy?” There are some people, they just come on your page to be mean, and you kind of want to go, “You looked me up, and took the time to write a response to be mean to me. Hmm, what does that say about your character?” There’s an old saying your mama told you. “If you ain’t got nothing nice to say, don’t say nothing at all.” I try to live by that old school motto. I don’t try to pass on bad energy to others, I don’t. If I don’t have anything nice to say I just keep my opinion right on over here. But you know, this generation with the social media, a lot of people like that negative feedback. They feed off it. I don’t.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about motherhood. I know you have all these nieces and nephews, and godchildren. I feel like motherhood, meaning the energy of motherhood, is something that is innate in all women. We have a need to nurture. How does that energy express itself through you?
Vivica A. Fox: I’m Mama Bear all the time! I have a nurturing instinct and I think I get that from my mother. My mother always loved to take care of others. Still to this day, she doesn’t take as good care of herself, because she is always looking out for others. I got that quality from her. When I’m on the set, I’m always looking out for others. When I walk on a set, I’m always making sure that I speak to everyone, that I try to make people as comfortable as possible. In that way, I am very motherly. It’s just something in me, I like to look out for others. But the older I’ve gotten, I’ve learned to look out more for myself, as well. And I’ve learned a very important word: No. Because people will take, take, take from you child, till you drop! Then they’re satisfied, and you’re left over there feeling completely empty.
Allison Kugel: At what age did you learn how to say No?
Vivica A. Fox: It was in my late forties, or maybe just when I got to be about fifty, that I started really looking at my relationships and asking myself if they are all reciprocal relationships. I had that tendency to give, give, give, and I finally took off my Captain Save-A-Ho cape.
Allison Kugel: (Laughs).
Vivica A. Fox: I mean that. Sometimes you’ll talk to friends on the phone, and we all vent, it’s human. But if you talk to somebody that is constantly draining and negative, at some point… I’ve cut ties with a couple of friends and not felt bad about it. I call it the season of shedding, where not everyone’s going to the next chapter or the next level with you. And it’s okay. You don’t have to hate them, but there’s nothing wrong with making good choices for yourself.
Allison Kugel: How do you define glamour and beauty?
Vivica A. Fox: Someone who is a goddess, who just radiates confidence; someone who owns her moment, who seizes her moment. The older I’ve gotten, I believe that beauty radiates from the inside. Especially nowadays with these build-a-bodies, and everything is just makeup and fakeness in my opinion right now. It’s when you meet a person and they are a beautiful person, they radiate confidence and kindness. I find beauty in a woman that has no makeup on, but she’s confident in her own skin and radiates kindness and does for others, to me that’s beautiful.
Allison Kugel: In your book you give advice on achieving different areas of success in one’s life. I personally think that so many people have a misconception about success. People want that insta-recognition, that insta-success. I said to someone the other day that for all the people who think they would love to trade places with Mark Zuckerberg or Oprah, for example, most of those people wouldn’t make it through the first week if they saw the tremendous amount of work, pressure and sacrifice that it takes to be in that type of position.
Vivica A. Fox: To piggyback on that point, for myself, people don’t realize that for the last two to three years I slept on planes. I was always traveling, always busy, taking meetings, not sleeping, going here, going there, and going through changes of life and never letting it slow me down. There’s a lot of work required. All those seeds that I’ve planted, I’m now seeing them all blossom. But I had to do the work. That’s what I tell people. In my book, in the chapter about Being the Head Chick in Charge, I say, “Don’t let anyone outwork you.”
Allison Kugel: What do you think is the biggest misconception about success?
Vivica A. Fox: That it’s easy. When you’re successful, usually it’s taken a long time to build a career. It isn’t something that happens overnight. It takes time to build a career, and a career means being able to go through different stages and chapters of a career, not just being the hot chick of the moment. For me, I went from being the hot ingenue chick, to now building my brand and producing and directing.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about Empire. I started watching it last week, all four seasons in a row!
Vivica A. Fox: Oh, you binge-watched…
Allison Kugel: Yes, I binge-watched! I’m talking carrying the iPad with me all over the house; the show is that addictive and entertaining. Entertainment value, on a scale of 1 to 10, it’s a 12 plus. The one thing I had mixed feelings about is the way African Americans are depicted in the show. On one hand I’m loving it, on the other hand I’m thinking, “Does this play on negative stereotypes, the way this family is being portrayed?”
Vivica A. Fox: Well, I think that’s why Empire has been so successful. It’s raw and right there in your face. It makes you uncomfortable. What I commend Lee Daniels and the cast of Empire for is they are like, “It may make you uncomfortable, but we are who we are. We’re not going to sugar coat this. We’re going to give it to you straight, no chaser.” That’s what made it a phenom. Some people felt like they couldn’t handle the gay [subject], or they feel it’s a little bit too raw, but that’s Empire. They have stayed true to what the show is about, and I have to commend them for that. That take courage, not to bow down to social or peer pressure.
Allison Kugel: Did Lee Daniels ever share with you the moral of the story of Empire, or his vision for the show?
Vivica A. Fox: Not really. The thing I love about Lee is that he is who he is. It’s taken awhile for him to become comfortable in his own skin, and that he’s a gay man and that he has talent, and he doesn’t have to hide who he really is anymore. We’ve all been in this business for twenty years, and I’m going to tell you that it’s been a long journey for him to put out a show like this. Some of the storylines in the show, absolutely, with the mother saying to her kids, “You’re this, you’re that (referring to the character, Cookie, having a penchant for hurling insults).” The father throwing the kid in the dumpster, it tugs at the heartstrings. It makes you uncomfortable, but it happens. I feel that with knowledge there’s power.
Allison Kugel: What will Candace be up to in the new season?
Vivica A. Fox: I can’t give away a whole bunch, but I will tell you that Candace is back and that you will get the chance to finally meet our mother, Renee, played by the very beautiful and talented Alfre Woodard.
Allison Kugel: Do you judge your character, Candace, the same way that Cookie judges her?
Vivica A. Fox: No. I believe we all have those relationships in our families where we’re all different, but we’re still family. In my career right now, I’ve embraced my womanhood and people are like, “Ooh, Vivica, you’re going to become today’s Diahann Carroll.” And I’m like, “Wow! Thank you for that.” But firstly, Vivica is a little bit more like Cookie. I like to have my rock star moments, and I love wearing the crazy clothes and all that stuff. But Candace is who I’m evolving into.
Allison Kugel: In your book you provide some back story about your mom and dad’s relationship, and how it’s affected your own love life. What I got from what you wrote is that in watching your mom nurse a broken heart over the divorce from your father, you saw her as a victim, and that framed your own love life.
Vivica A. Fox: Absolutely.
Allison Kugel: Do you still see her as a victim, or do you see things in a different light now? And what would it take for you to let your guard down in love?
Vivica A. Fox: I see my mother now as a survivor. My mother grew up in a time where you stuck by your guy. He was her one true love, and I definitely have those qualities. What I learned from her, in wanting her to live and to love and to laugh more, I wouldn’t take those same steps that she did. I can open my heart again. For my part, I’m making sure that I’m not lustful anymore. I don’t look at somebody and right away say, “Oh yes, he’s the one!” I make sure that I take the time to get to know someone. That’s something I pass along in my book, as well. Don’t jump into the shallow end of the pool head first. You’ve got to take the time to get to know people. So yes, I am open to love. I want to love again and have someone that’s really special. But he has to prove himself, and I would have to prove myself to him, that I’m worthy to be his mate. Sometimes women are so afraid to be alone that they just take that first thing coming, and they get the short end of the stick. They keep dating the same guy over and over again. That’s why, in the book, I say to make your chart out. Do you keep dating the same guy over and over again? Because you’re going to get the same result.
Allison Kugel: Do you want Hollywood to be colorblind in writing and casting roles, or do you want to be identified, and cast, as an African American actress?
Vivica A. Fox: Of course, I always want to be seen as a talented African American actress, because that’s who I am. I feel that right now, what’s going on in Hollywood is that, man, that glass ceiling has been busted wide open. It’s been a long time coming, with the success of Black Panther, with the success of television shows like Scandal and Empire and How to Get Away with Murder; with Oprah having her own network. It’s about damn time.
Allison Kugel: Is it an I Told You So moment?
Vivica A. Fox: I don’t know if it’s I Told You So as much as it is, Finally.
Allison Kugel: Finish these sentences for me. I know I can trust someone when…
Vivica A. Fox: When I’ve truly gotten to know them.
Allison Kugel: I know that God is speaking to me when…
Vivica A. Fox: Woo! Hmm. All the time. Every day when I wake up and I can thank Him for letting me see another day. I would say, I know God is speaking to me all the time, and He helps me make better choices.
Allison Kugel: My spiritual mission in this life is…
Vivica A. Fox: To be kind, to do unto others and to leave a good mark.
Vivica’s memoir, “Every Day I’m Hustling,” is available everywhere books are sold April 3rd and available for pre-order on Amazon.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Actress Andie MacDowell’s appeal is in her ethereal glow. From her crown of dark cascading curls to her porcelain complexion and delicate features, MacDowell’s sweet yet sultry sensuality captivated movie-going audiences with hits like Sex, Lies, and Videotape, Green Card, Groundhog’s Day and Four Weddings and a Funeral. She has always played the woman of great desire who orbits just outside of the male lead’s reach... that is, until he figures out how to win her over.
As Andie tells it, her “it girl” status throughout the late eighties and the whole of the nineties was a thrill ride, but left her feeling torn between an A-List movie career and being a hands-on mother to her three children. It was then she resolved to stop making movies back-to-back, but to choose her projects more carefully, kicking the tires first to be sure the role was worth time away from her family.
Over the last eighteen years, MacDowell has continued to work steadily, choosing roles that move her, make her think, and those that allow her to unpack her more provocative side. In 2015’s Magic Mike XXL, MacDowell played Nancy, the flirtatious older woman who unapologetically has her way with Joe Manganiello’s character. It’s safe to say that at this stage in MacDowell’s career she is doing anything but playing it safe on screen.
In her latest film, Love After Love, MacDowell tackles the role of the beautifully confident Suzanne, a wife and mother of two grown sons (played by Chris O’Dowd and James Adomian). She is loving her life (including her sex life) until her husband’s declining health and his death leaves her and her family reeling with grief, bitterness, and fear, as they try to regain their equilibrium.
Andie and I sat down for a frank discussion about growing older in Hollywood, embracing each stage of life, the #MeToo movement, finding her spiritual center and the enigmatic definition of happiness.
Allison Kugel: When you’re making a movie like Love After Love where the subject matter is heavier and about loss, do you feel pressure to entertain the audience, or is your allegiance solely to bringing out the truth of this character?
Andie MacDowell: I don’t think about it as entertaining the audience. I think it’s about touching your audience. When I read a book or watch a movie, I feel what the characters are feeling. Sometimes when I watch a movie, I almost feel like I’m in the movie. It’s more along the lines of being honest. And this character, Suzanne, she is so beautifully written. It’s about taking someone on the same journey that these characters go on. In the beginning of the film, she has such confidence and she is very lucky in her life. You see her drinking and having fun with all these people, and there is so much love around her. Then she goes through complete devastation from the loss of her husband, and then it’s the slow road back, including her learning how to have sex with another man. Our director, Russell Harbaugh, is a true artist and I think this movie looks like a piece of art. Although there is nudity throughout the whole film, it’s done in such an artistic way that it makes the story that much richer because you just feel like you are watching these people’s lives.
Allison Kugel: I watched your interview on Off Camera with Sam Jones and you were talking about being sick and tired of women being objectified on film, but there is a difference in how nudity is presented in Love After Love.
Andie MacDowell: Nudity in this film feels human, and similar in the way men’s and women’s nude bodies are depicted. The forms and the shapes and how we were laying on the bed. It’s shown as being real and a part of life.
Allison Kugel: You can see your humanity in the way it was filmed.
Andie MacDowell: And that’s the difference. It wasn’t how women are usually seen. I think women have quite often been used in movies as an object for men. And, you know what, there’s a lot of naked men in this movie. It’s part of the story, and the way it’s presented, you don’t even think about it in that way.
Allison Kugel: You’ve said that you were starving for this type of a role. Beyond the need to no longer be typecast, did playing Suzanne in Love After Love allow you to work out events and emotions from your own life? Was it therapeutic for you?
Andie MacDowell: I have such a well and a huge depth of life experience that I haven’t had the opportunity to use on film. I saw so much that I could do with this character. She has all these different parts of herself. She has this lusty confidence; she’s a self-assured woman that’s not ashamed that she had an open marriage. And then she crumbles. But she is heroic in taking care of her husband, and then devastated at losing him and you then see her destroyed. And then she is trying to start over, and she has that humbling experience of having sex with the person she works with. In the scene where she loses it on the young actress, I really wanted to play that part of things, the ability to be cruel because you’re in pain. We do that as mature women. We’re fed up as mature women and we lash out sometimes. It’s a true moment in the film.
Allison Kugel: Do you feel a sense of relief that the kinds of roles you’re getting to play now are more character-driven, as opposed to the young female lead that you played in the nineties?
Andie MacDowell: I’m thankful for all the jobs I’ve had, and I’ve gotten to do some great parts. I don’t have any regrets, and I think those roles suited me at that age and time. I think as you get older, you are a character (laughs). You have a lot more depth by the time you’re my age, because you’ve had to struggle. My life has not been a piece of cake. I understand what it is to have a complex life, because my life has been complex. By the time you’re my age, you see things differently and I think you have more to offer in a way.
Allison Kugel: How did you feel about being cast as Chris O’Dowd’s mother in this film, playing the mother of an adult child?
Andie MacDowell: I am old enough to be his mother. And I just played another character, recently, where I tried to look even older. I don’t have a problem with looking older. I think I can play ten years older and ten years younger. At some points in the film I looked older than at other times. I think that happens all the time, in real life too, depending on how you’re feeling. I think when you’re sad you look old. I looked younger in the beginning of this film, because I’m happy. And I looked older later in the film because I was damn tired and sad! I think you age like ten years when you’re that sad.
Allison Kugel: This movie is about grieving and finding your way back after the loss of a loved one. What are the things that you turn to when the ground starts to shake beneath your feet? How do you come back to center?
Andie MacDowell: Oh, I’m always looking for center. I hike a lot and I like to be in nature around trees. I love to ride horses…
Allison Kugel: Me too!
Andie MacDowell: Do you? They say that it has a physical effect on you.
Allison Kugel: I believe that. I always say that riding horses is my yoga. People are always bugging me to do yoga and it’s not really my thing. Riding gives me that meditative state.
Andie MacDowell: I should be riding right now. It’s soothing and calming, it lowers your cortisol levels. It’s good for everything. Being around animals in general is really comforting.
Allison Kugel: What do you teach your kids about emotional and spiritual resiliency?
Andie MacDowell: They are spiritual, which I am thankful for. I put no pressure on them to believe anything that I believe, but I think it’s healthy to have spirituality in your life. They also do a lot of yoga. They are very peace-seeking people, and love-seeking people, on the inside. To me, God is love, so they are headed in the right direction.
Allison Kugel: In your late twenties and into your thirties and you were doing movie after movie – Sex, Lies, and Videotape; Green Card; Groundhog’s Day; Four Weddings and a Funeral – and all eyes were on you. What did that moment in time feel like for you?
Andie MacDowell: Well, I could have done a lot more, but one year I did three movies in a year and I realized that I could not be a good mother and do that many movies. I was so popular, and I was so young, that it was easy. I could usually decide when I wanted to work and go find a job; it was that easy. And I would always try to do one independent and one studio film. That would be my goal each year. Life was great. I have to say it was wonderful to be in that position.
Allison Kugel: And then you entered your forties.
Andie MacDowell: Yes, it’s true. People would keep saying to me when I would get interviewed, “How does it feel to turn forty and know that you’re not going to work anymore?” And it really was… kind of like a light switch.
Allison Kugel: Even though you still looked gorgeous and had the same abilities…
Andie MacDowell: Even though I looked gorgeous. It gets harder. I never wanted to complain or whine too much because I always thought it was unattractive. I find it really fascinating that women are finally in a place this year where we are no longer seen as whiners. We’re seen as legitimately having a truth to tell that is finally being told.
Allison Kugel: In the early years of your career, did you ever have a #MeToo moment?
Andie MacDowell: I didn’t ever have sexual problems in the context of my career. I never found myself in any kind of position in this business. I had #MeToo issues, but not in the business. But for me, what I find as relevant and equally as important as the #MeToo movement regarding sexual assault I strongly believe that this is the first time we have had any voice. Women have always been accused of being too emotional. If you’ve studied therapy, early on, according to Carl Jung, a woman who wanted to be independent was crazy. That’s how far we have had to come. Just to be independent, not too long ago, we were called insane. There are so many social issues right now that are really important. My hope is that every aspect of how we have been diminished is going to be opened up. People will see and question why they would have to ask a woman the question that they asked me when I turned forty, yet not ask it of a man. It’s important that we take a hard look at that. That cannot be overlooked if we are to finally be seen as equal human beings on this planet.
Allison Kugel: With Love After Love you did find a role that shows the complexity of a female character.
Andie MacDowell: I am astounded by this film and this role. And Chris O’Dowd is a great person and very talented actor. I was surrounded by remarkable people.
Allison Kugel: Was there a lot of improvisation in this film?
Andie MacDowell: There was a good bit of improv. But with the script, I love the words that [filmmaker] Russell Harbaugh wrote for me. They are not words that I would come up with, so I liked using his words and speaking the way that he wrote her. I’ll tell you what is improved, is the very first scene at the opening of the film, that was improved, the line “Your dad’s pretty good in bed.” That whole thing was improv. There is something really fresh when you do improv because it surprises you. That being said, almost everything else in the script was written and it’s somebody else’s intelligent words being given to me.
Allison Kugel: The question in that first scene that’s asked to your character is, “What is happy?”
Andie MacDowell: That was an honest answer that my character gives, “You can’t always be happy.” A therapist told me that one time (laughs). It was a big revelation; you can’t always be happy.
Allison Kugel: How do you define happy? What does happy mean for you?
Andie MacDowell: I think happiness is peace of mind. It’s definitely not superficial. Happiness is not a big house. I’ve had a big house and I’ve had a small house, and I think I was happier in the smaller house. Happiness is never going to be things. It’s also love and attachment, but to me happiness is really peace of mind.
Allison Kugel: What do you believe in, and who or what do you pray to?
Andie MacDowell: Ha! I pray to a very liberal Jesus. I grew up going to church and it was a warm environment where my mother played the organ and my favorite song was Jesus Loves the Little Children. It’s such a corny little song, but I love it. “All the children of the world; black and yellow, red and white; they’re all precious in His sight; Jesus loves the little children of the world.” I grew up going to Sunday school and sang that song, and it was sweet. It’s nothing to do with politics or any concept that everybody has unfortunately thrown onto my concept of who He is. My belief is in kindness. I’ve also read a lot on Buddhism and I’m a Yogi, and I don’t like the concept of what people have of what the church is nowadays. The whole political thing has ruined it.
Allison Kugel: I love the saying, “Instead of being Christian, be Christ-like.” So much of the judgment that people spew is so interesting to me, because Jesus was a liberal in terms of His lack of judgment on His fellow man.
Andie MacDowell: He was definitely a liberal. He loved the poor people. And He would go into the church and knock over things. He couldn’t stand that kind of behavior. The way my family observed [Christianity] was very sweet. There are so many positive aspects to it. There’s a lot of negative aspects to it too. But if you just sit down at a table, and everybody gets together and holds hands and simply says, “Thank you for the food.” I want to tell people that I’m the good kind, I’m not the ugly kind.
Allison Kugel: “I’m not here to judge you. I have no interest in judging you.”
Andie MacDowell: Right! I’m not here to judge you. Oh, my heavens! And I don’t think about heaven or hell. I think heaven and hell is right here. You can make the world heaven or hell.
Allison Kugel: Earth is a yin and yang experience. You have dark and light, night and day, good and evil, joy and sorrow. That’s all right here. Speaking of which, what do you see as the moral of the story in this movie, Love After Love? What’s the takeaway from this movie?
Andie MacDowell: That we’re broken. Everybody, all of us. I think we’re all broken and we’re just trying to get through life as best as we can.
Allison Kugel: I feel like there should be a “but” there. We’re all broken, but…
Andie MacDowell: But, we’ll get through it together. We need each other and nobody’s perfect.
Allison Kugel: How are you going to ring in your sixtieth birthday next month?
Andie MacDowell: I’m going to be working which is what I like to do! That’s a good thing. I want to do something special. Maybe I’ll go to India. I’ve been wanting to go to India for a long time.
Allison Kugel: What do you think this new decade will bring into your life?
Andie MacDowell: I know what I hope it brings. I would like to do more spiritual work. Go listen to Ram Dass talk, and Marianne Williamson; go to a yoga retreat and cultivate every aspect of myself so that I can continue to work on peace of mind. As you get older, I feel like if you’re going down the right road there is this clarity that you can see in your eyes. It’s a gentleness that is the most beautiful aspect a human can have. That is my goal, to continue to work on that gentle side of myself.
Allison Kugel: The title of this film, Love After Love, I feel like it holds a double meaning. Does it mean finding your life after losing love, or finding love again after losing love, or both?
Andie MacDowell: For me it means that love is a complex thing. You can’t fit it all in one place. In this film, it could mean that maybe we all loved him so much that we needed to learn to love in another way. If you don’t have a person in your life any longer, then you have to find your way to loving other people.
Photo Credits: Sam Jones, IFC
Love After Love is in theatres and On Demand March 30th.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Same Jersey Shore cast (sans ex-castmate Sammi Giancola), same nickname… new outlook on life. Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi started off our conversation by letting me know that she prefers to be called Nicole. The thirty-year-old married mom of Lorenzo, 5, and Giovanna, 3, was also quick to clarify that a duality still exists in her life: subdued suburban mom by day, Jersey Shore’s outrageously funny Snooki by night. Think Clark Kent versus Superman. Which of Nicole’s personas is the superhero and which is the mere mortal? We’ll let you decide.
During her six-year Jersey Shore hiatus, Nicole Polizzi, has transformed her brand, starring alongside Jenni “JWoww” Farley on the MTV spin-off Snooki and JWoww and on Go90 Network’s, Moms with Attitude. Her lifestyle website, TheSnookiShop.com, sells everything from bikinis to cocktail dresses. Nicole’s podcast, It’s Happening with Snooki & Joey, is a look inside her everyday life, and her social media platforms are all about #momlife and #fitnessgoals.
The Seaside Heights crew is back with their MTV reboot, Jersey Shore Family Vacation. The now thirty-somethings are navigating roommate status and being party pals during this new stage of their lives, as older, successful media personalities and parents. According to Nicole, the cast manages to deliver all of the crazy antics you remember, and as she puts it, there’s no need to re-hash old drama when there is so much new fodder that takes place this season on the shores of Miami Beach.
Allison Kugel: When you look at old footage from the early seasons of Jersey Shore, do you recognize that girl?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: It does feel like a lifetime ago. But if I were to say, “that’s not me,” I’d be lying. You never really lose your personality. Sometimes I am goofy. I like to have fun and I’m outgoing. I’m just not going out to the club and finding men, and I’m wearing underwear now (laughs). Just like anyone else, you grow up, but at the same time you don’t lose yourself.
Allison Kugel: In an interview your dad gave years back, he said you had always wanted to be famous and that he figured if he gave you his blessing to do Jersey Shore, you would get it out of your system.
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: It wasn’t necessarily to be famous. I always wanted to be on reality [television]. I was a huge fan of The Real World and Road Rules when I was growing up. I always wanted to be on a show like that, just to experience it, and then go back to my job and have a normal life. I never necessarily wanted to be famous. It was more about doing reality because I was such a reality junkie; I was obsessed with it.
Allison Kugel: Where would you be today, in life, in love, in career, had Jersey Shore never happened?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: I probably would still be living in upstate New York by my mom. I was going to school to be a Vet Tech, so I’d probably be working in an animal hospital somewhere. But I honestly don’t care. I don’t even want to think about that, because I wouldn’t have my husband and I wouldn’t have my kids. It would be a totally different life that I don’t want to think about. The fact that I met my husband during the show is everything. Everything happens for a reason.
Allison Kugel: Do you still have a love for animals?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: When I decided to marry my husband (Jionni LaValle) I gave up a huge part of my life, which were my cats, because he’s allergic. That was so hard, but obviously my husband is my world. I still do love animals and I do a lot of donations to animal charities. I honestly like animals more than people.
Allison Kugel: Why was Jersey Shore Family Vacation shot in Miami and not the Jersey Shore?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: We filmed in January and February, so Jersey was still 20 degrees, snowy and cold. That wouldn’t have been fun, going down the shore because there was nothing there and just snow everywhere. We wanted to go somewhere close, God forbid something happens with the kids, I could book a flight and be home. And we also wanted to go somewhere tropical and beautiful. You can’t really beat Miami.
Allison Kugel: And no spouses, no kids, just the cast?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Just the cast. I really didn’t want my kids on [the show] that much, and I didn’t want to take them out of school. I didn’t feel it was worth it. I think Jenni (“JWoww” Farley) felt the same way. Also, we haven’t lived with each other in about six years, so bringing everyone else in would be crazy. We’re always home with our kids anyway, so we all just wanted to get away from our lives for a second and re-live us being roomies again.
Allison Kugel: What’s the biggest piece of unfinished business among the cast that gets resolved on Jersey Shore Family Vacation?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Personally, for me, I’m so over the drama. I’m thirty years old, I have two kids. That’s what I worry about now, not petty shit from when we were drunk and fighting. For me, I went in forgetting everything and having a clean slate with everyone. I don’t think anyone resolved any past issues from six years ago. I think we were all just so grateful for the fact that we got this opportunity. We were all like, “If there’s any drama, let’s make it new drama. Let’s not harp on old drama.”
Allison Kugel: What did Sammi Giancola bring to the Jersey Shore cast that you missed while filming this new season?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: The fact that she wasn’t there, obviously it feels weird that one of us is missing. It didn’t feel whole. But that was her own choice and we didn’t want to push her. We respected it, and she was fine with it. We did it without her, but it didn’t feel the same.
Allison Kugel: Why do you think your friendship with Jenni “JWoww” Farley has remained as close as it is today?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: We’re best friends and we’ve been working together ever since Jersey Shore ended. We had our Snooki and JWoww spinoff, and now we have Moms with Attitude (Verizon’s Go90 network) with our kids. It helps that we’re always working together. If we’re not, then she’s doing her own thing and traveling, and it’s hard to see each other. The fact that we still have shows together and our kids are involved, it helps us see each other a lot more.
Allison Kugel: What are Jenni’s best qualities?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: She’s honest, she’s always there for me and always has my back, and she’s just real. That’s what I love about her. We have the same qualities when it comes to having each other’s backs and being brutally honest at times.
Allison Kugel: As you mentioned earlier, alcohol consumption fueled a lot of the drama on the original Jersey Shore. How much do you drink these days?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: On the show we like to have a good time together, so being together again, we went out to bars and we drank. We basically tried to do what we used to do, except the hangovers were a lot worse!
Allison Kugel: Tell me about your lifestyle these days, apart from Jersey Shore?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Ever since I had the kids I wanted to get healthy and be able to keep up with them and carry them, so I wanted to get healthier and stronger and have a better lifestyle. Ever since I had Lorenzo, that’s been my way. These days I eat a lot of veggies and chicken, good fats, and I do a lot of spin classes, boxing and I have a trainer that I train with four times a week.
Allison Kugel: What’s something in entertainment that you haven’t attempted and would like to?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: More hosting. It’s fun, because you have to be upbeat and alive, and funny and outgoing. I’d like to do more.
Allison Kugel: Will you forever hold onto the Snooki persona?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Right now it’s transitioning to Nicole. Everyone knows that as a mom, I’m not Snooki. It’s more of a brand name now, and that brand is evolving. On the show as Snooki and JWoww, that’s our time away from the kids and becoming us again and having alone time. We’ll always have our nicknames, but we’re not Snooki and JWoww all the time now. When it comes to being moms, we’re Nicole and Jenni. Fans now mostly ask me about my kids, and are really invested in what’s going on with my kids.
Allison Kugel: How has motherhood shaped who you are today?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Before the kids, I never really had real responsibility. I was always traveling and waking up late, and just living the life that I wanted to live. Once you have kids, it’s all about them. It made me grow up, because I wanted to. And it made me a better person. I think every mom would say that.
Allison Kugel: Explain to me how it feels to be a woman who was adopted, and now having two biological children of your own. What has that given to you?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Being adopted was never really a struggle for me. My parents are my parents, period. But I always had a problem with feeling like, “Oh, I don’t look like anyone and this sucks.” When I had my kids, they looked like me. They’re my twins! It filled that void of me always feeling like no one looks like me, and feeling weird about that. If anything, I feel blessed that now other people look like me in my family.
Allison Kugel: What is something about your belief system; either religiously, spiritually or philosophically, that would surprise people?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: I’m into meditation and I recently opened up my third eye. I like to meditate a lot, I like to talk to the spirit world and to my spirit guide. It helps me stay grounded and humble, especially now that everything is happening again. It also helps me with my anxiety. One of my best friends is a medium, and I wanted to explore my brain a little bit. The first time we meditated together I met my spirit guide. I think for people who want to get into it, go with a mentor or someone who knows everything about it, who can help you. When you do this on your own, you don’t really know what you’re doing. It’s helpful to have someone talk you through the process.
Allison Kugel: Tell me about your podcast, It’s Happening with Snooki & Joey.
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: My podcast is me talking to my best friend about pop culture, about what I did that day, my obsessions of the week, healthy tips. I do the podcast with my best friend, Joey. It’s fun to have an amazing gay co-host, because we’re both outrageous. We like to have guests on who are our friends, who people don’t know. I’ll have my trainer on to share tips, and I’ll have other reality stars on as guests. I love having reality stars on because they get it, they have a personality and they’re not filtered.
Allison Kugel: Who are your dream guests?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Jennifer Lawrence and Amy Schumer.
Allison Kugel: How have you stayed in touch with the entire Jersey Shore cast over the last six years?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: I feel like all of us have stayed in contact a lot, and I’ve stayed close with everyone. Just because we haven’t been on the show for awhile doesn’t mean that we stopped talking to each other. We’re always in group chat. We’re always connecting, making sure everyone’s okay and asking what’s going on.
Allison Kugel: It feels like a family at this point?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: Oh, of course. Always!
Allison Kugel: Why should people tune in to watch Jersey Shore Family Vacation?
Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi: If you’re a fan of Jersey Shore you are not going to be disappointed because we all went crazy! Even though we’re older, we’re still degenerates, so that’s the same (laughs). And I feel like for new fans, they need to hop on board. Even when you’re thirty years old and you have kids, you can still have a good time. Life isn’t over.
Jersey Shore Family Vacation premieres Thursday, April 5th at 8/7c on MTV.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Few models have seamlessly made the transition to the silver screen and television as successfully as Brooklyn Decker. Brooklyn leapt from the cover of Sports Illustrated’s Swimsuit Issue (the Oscars of swimsuit modeling) onto the big screen in 2011’s hit rom-com, Just Go With It. Aside from her classic slow-mo emergence from the Hawaiian sea in a swimsuit, reminiscent of the classic film, 10 starring Bo Derek, she held her own opposite comedic heavyweights Adam Sandler and Jennifer Aniston. Hollywood took notice, subsequently casting her in 2012’s Battleship, alongside Alexander Skarsgard, Rihanna and Liam Neeson. Next up was the ensemble comedy What to Expect When You’re Expecting (based on the mega-bestselling mom-to-be tome) alongside a bevy of A-list actresses, including: Jennifer Lopez, Cameron Diaz, Elizabeth Banks, Rebel Wilson and Anna Kendrick. Decker famously played the young and super fit “pregnant unicorn” who leaves actress Elizabeth Banks’ pregnant character scratching her head in envy and disbelief.
On social media, where most celebrities are retouching their images, Brooklyn thinks nothing of going makeup and photoshop-free at times, fearlessly repping the daily rigors of being a multitasking working mom, while adding tech entrepreneur to her growing resume with her recently-funded fashion startup, Finery.
Brooklyn Decker is currently riding a wave of success, playing the role of Mallory Hanson on the hit Netflix series, Grace and Frankie, now in its fourth season. Decker’s character Mallory is a young married mother of four children, navigating complicated relationships with her parents, played by Jane Fonda and Martin Sheen, and her sister, played by June Diane Raphael.
I caught up with this super babe turned superwoman for a chat about the success of Grace and Frankie, how Netflix is transforming the entertainment industry and the evolution of great characters on television.
Allison Kugel: What have you learned about great comedy through playing the role of Mallory on Grace and Frankie?
Brooklyn Decker: I’ve learned from my colleagues on the show, especially June Diane Raphael who plays my sister. She’s one of the most talented comedic actresses I’ve ever worked with. What I’ve learned from her and from the rest of the cast is the more you’re playing a scene, the funnier it becomes. All of us, when we’re shooting, we play with each other… that sounds very in appropriate by the way (laughs)…
Allison Kugel: (Laughs) Don’t worry. My mind was not in the gutter…
Brooklyn Decker: Ha! We’re like, “Can I push you here? Or maybe can you grab my hair here?” We do get physical, and we find a way to play with each other to bring physicality to the scene. What happens from that is it becomes funnier, and it feels more real. I really learned that from June, who, again is one of the funniest people in my life. And the wealth of talent on our show is just incredible. I’ve really learned that when it comes to comedy, if you’re having a fun time, the audience is going to have a fun time.
Allison Kugel: I agree! June Diane Raphael is a very talented comedic actress, and the two of you play so well off each other as sisters on the show. There’s an interesting parallel of female relationships on Grace and Frankie. You have the close relationship between Jane Fonda’s character, Grace, and Lily Tomlin’s character, Frankie. At the same time, there is the sister relationship between your character, Mallory, and June’s character, Brianna. You don’t often get to see one close female relationship on television, so two female storylines in one show is pretty cool!
Brooklyn Decker: You’re one of the few people who have clued into that. Someone else commented to me that it’s rare to see sisters on television. There aren’t these female relationships that are at a deep level. I feel like Grace and Frankie does a really good job of showing sisterhood as friendship. But yeah, you are one of the few people who have mentioned that.
Allison Kugel: Thank you for that, and I’m surprised more people haven’t made that observation. Tell me the difference between Jane Fonda’s comedic style versus Lily Tomlin’s comedic style.
Brooklyn Decker: They approach their work entirely differently from one another. Lily is just in the scene. She doesn’t care about the technical aspect of a scene. She just wants to be present and then receive. As far as her character Frankie goes, she really embodies that. Jane is so technically perfect. She knows where every camera is, she knows when to take a pause, she knows how to angle her face. They do very few takes with Jane, because everything is pretty perfect. Whereas Lily gets on set and likes to play. You get something different from Lily on every take, because she’s constantly playing, constantly moving. They approach acting so differently; it’s similar to the difference in their characters. It’s fascinating to see the two of them work together. They just rib each other all day long. You can see that there’s so much love and history there.
Allison Kugel: Because they’ve worked together before…
Brooklyn Decker: Yep, 9 to 5!
Allison Kugel: One of my favorite movies of all time! Speaking of which, will Dolly Parton make a guest appearance on Grace and Frankie?
Brooklyn Decker: Abso-freakin-lutely! We beg for it every episode. They’re so secretive about it, that I don’t know if it is in the works, or if it will ever happen. I know that a lot of fans of Jane and Lily have wanted to see Dolly on the show because of 9 to 5. In the first two seasons they wanted to make sure that they fleshed out the show before they brought in what would be the tornado that is Dolly Parton. Now that we are in Season Four, they are playing it super close to the vest.
Allison Kugel: How is it having Martin Sheen, who is also a fantastic actor, playing your father?
Brooklyn Decker: He is such a wonderful person. One of my favorite shows of all time, before doing Grace and Frankie, was The West Wing. Everyone says you should never meet your heroes because you’ll be disappointed. I was nervous to work with him, because I really had him on this pedestal. And he is such a kind, present, lovely person. My son was born when I was shooting the show, and the next week he brought me a rosary with the date that my son was born. He’s so paternal and wonderful, and to be able to play his daughter feels really natural. I have such respect and affection for him.
Allison Kugel: You were pregnant in Season Three? I just watched it and you weighed 2 lbs!
Brooklyn Decker: Well, no, I was pregnant in Season Two, and then I was pregnant with my second this upcoming Season Four.
Allison Kugel: I’m going to be on the lookout for a bump in Season Four!
Brooklyn Decker: It’s so confusing. June and I have four children altogether, off the show, and I have four children on the show. We have trouble keeping up with what’s real and what’s fake. It’s all very confusing (laughs).
Allison Kugel: Do yours and June’s kids have playdates?
Brooklyn Decker: Yes. When I’m in LA they have; when we all get together.
Allison Kugel: Could you see you and your husband (tennis star, Andy Roddick) being parents to four kids like your character Mallory?
Brooklyn Decker: Honestly, that’s my dream! I want a ton of children. Both me and my brother wish that we had more brothers and sisters. Whereas my husband comes from a family with three boys, and he likes the idea of two. So far, we’re good with two and we’ll see where that takes us.
Allison Kugel: Of course, the main plotline of Grace and Frankie is that Robert and Sol, played by Martin Sheen and Sam Waterston, come out as gay after their kids are grown up, they announce they’re in love and leave their respective wives (played by Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin) to be together. Your character, Mallory, being one of the grown children, has to process and deal with that on the show. Have you ever thought about how you would react if that were to happen in your real life? If you had a parent who came out later in life and left your other parent, how do you think you and your brother might have handled those circumstances?
Brooklyn Decker: That’s interesting. I’ve had two male friends who had children and came out to their wives later in life. It hasn’t happened to me, personally, but people do go through it and I think I can relate to the kids on the show. During Season One, one of the more poignant moments was a scene when all of the kids were having a conversation, and basically saying, “We’re not mad that dad’s gay. We love dad no matter what. We’re mad that he’s been lying to his wife, our mother and our family, for twenty years. For me it would be about the fact that they’ve been having an affair for twenty years; that would be a big deal. June’s character, Brianna, said on the show, “What if dad had been having an affair with a woman? We would all be pissed. But because it’s a man, we have to accept it.” I think that is so true. That was an interesting thing to tackle on the show, and I feel like that would probably be true in real life. If a parent was having an affair, and had been having an affair with one person for so many years, that would be the issue. For me, it would be less about their sexual orientation.
Allison Kugel: You came on the scene as a model. Back when you were on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, was the end goal an acting career?
Brooklyn Decker: When I moved to New York and first started modeling, I moved thinking that I was just going to pay for school. That was the goal. When I started modeling I was eighteen, and all of my friends were in their freshman year at college. I really missed that. The reason I started studying acting was because I really missed school. My manager said, “Why don’t you get an acting coach and study acting? It will at least give you something to read and study when you’re on the road.” I liked that idea, so I started studying with a coach in New York and we started reading a bunch of Tennessee Williams. We approached it in a weird way, kind of academically. It was less about performance and more about learning and studying. I fell in love with studying acting. When I started auditioning, I didn’t think anything would come from it.
Allison Kugel: What made you come to that conclusion?
Brooklyn Decker: Growing up in Matthew, North Carolina, becoming an actor and becoming a model wasn’t a realistic career path. My brother’s a firefighter, my mom’s a retired nurse. It’s not something that you do where I’m from. We weren’t in the arts. In that respect, it was something that happened by chance. Once I started studying and auditioning, I fell in love with it and then of course I really wanted it. By 2010, I got three movies in one year. The second I booked my third movie, I said to my manager, “I’m quitting modeling. I’m done.”
Allison Kugel: One of those movies was Just Go With It with Adam Sandler and Jennifer Aniston?
Brooklyn Decker: Just Go With It, Battleship and What to Expect When You’re Expecting. Once I booked my third movie, I had the courage to decide to stop modeling and focus on acting, and that was seven years ago.
Allison Kugel: At what point did you feel like you made the transition from a model who’s done some acting, to an actor?
Brooklyn Decker: I don’t feel like that… yet.
Allison Kugel: You don’t??
Brooklyn Decker: I do think that as a model, especially one who was in Sports Illustrated, which really puts you on the map, you have a lot to prove. People are constantly viewing you as one thing, and seeing you as sort of a wannabe (laughs).
Allison Kugel: I get it. When you’re on the Grace and Frankie set, you’re surrounded by Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Sam Waterston, Martin Sheen, June Diane Raphael who is a seasoned comedienne. You got a seat at the table, but are you constantly questioning, “Do I belong here?” “Should I be here?” Or do you feel like, “Yes! I belong here.”?
Brooklyn Decker: I feel the insecurity that you just said of “do I belong here?” every single day. I think it’s me. It’s my own neurosis. But I do think that no matter what, any actor, and I’ve been acting full time now for seven or eight years, but any relatively new actor would feel insecure working with that group of actors. But I do feel a little bit more insecure because of where I came from, for sure.
Allison Kugel: How does the cast feel about you?
Brooklyn Decker: I don’t think they care. Jane is an ultra-feminist and she does not care what your past is. Her attitude is if you’re here, you are part of the show. I think that is how everyone feels.
Allison Kugel: What would you say is the overarching moral of the story, or the overarching message of Grace and Frankie?
Brooklyn Decker: I think it really is that love and relationships come in all forms. Family can come in all forms. If you look at the central story, it’s the story of two women who typically aren’t represented on television. We don’t usually get to see women who are 80 going through life, and this show explores that. Second to that, I think it shows different forms of relationships. You have the two brothers who are adopted, and you see them navigating that with their parents. You have two sisters who have chosen completely different lives from one another, Grace and Frankie are exploring this sisterhood and family between the two of them, as two single women in their eighties. And Sol and Robert are a gay older couple who have just come out and are married.
Allison Kugel: This show throws a lot of the “shoulds” that society places on us out the window.
Brooklyn Decker: In Season Three, Sam and Martin’s characters were wanting to go to gay clubs and open up their relationship, and they were wondering what gay couples are supposed to do. A lot of it was they thought they were supposed to be doing something because they’re gay. Just like Grace and Frankie feel all of these cultural expectations on them because they’re 80 years old. You see each of these characters defy what the societal expectations and projections are. It’s about busting through expectations placed on people.
Allison Kugel: In past generations, television didn’t reflect the true messiness of life. I can remember my mother telling me that she would watch shows like Father Knows Best or Leave It To Beaver, where everything was so perfect and idyllic, and she would wonder why her family wasn’t TV perfect. The stories we are seeing now on television are embracing the messiness of life, which is what real life is.
Brooklyn Decker: Exactly! And the messiness is more interesting and what’s fun to watch. I don’t know what Netflix’s expectations were, but I do know there was pressure surrounding us when we were filming the first Season. The Netflix streaming demographic was a relatively new concept at the time, and they didn’t know who the audience was for this. What Netflix has discovered, and why it’s such a huge hit, is because it resonates with people in its messiness. The show makes people laugh, makes people cry… there are things people relate to and things that people learn from. Right now, more than ever, people want something that feels real, but also lifts them up. They need thirty minutes to have fun.
Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts on the movement that Netflix has become? The fact that so many talented writers and actors are flocking to this platform, and everybody is coming on board and trying to be a part of it?
Brooklyn Decker: What’s so exciting about it is that, ultimately, the talent wins out. It’s the first time that we’ve really had that in Hollywood. Because there is such a wealth of opportunity now, you are really getting to see talent. The cool thing about Netflix is they can just make really good content, and with that, they can hire really good talent and they don’t have to be stars. Netflix doesn’t have to share their numbers, and they don’t share their numbers. They’re not about making sales at the box office, so they can just focus on making great content. You’re seeing the result of that. With the way the business is changing, talent wins out, and that’s exciting.
Allison Kugel: Apart from the amazing Lisa Kudrow, are there any other interesting guest stars coming up on Season Four?
Brooklyn Decker: I don’t want to reveal who the guest starring actor is, but the important and interesting thing is the storyline with this actor. Sam and Martin are having a hard time in their relationship, and they ask themselves if they should bring a third party into it.
Allison Kugel: The honeymoon phase for Sam and Martin’s characters is over, and now they’re having problems just like any other couple.
Brooklyn Decker: Yep, real relationship problems.
Allison Kugel: Your character, Mallory, announced that she is separating from her husband on the last episode of Season Three. Can you share how that unfolds this season?
Brooklyn Decker: I play a woman who got married out of college and who hasn’t been in the professional world at all. For the first time, I have to figure out what I want to do with my life, and Mallory goes back to work. And I may or may not be seeking employment with one of the family members.
Allison Kugel: On another note, I want to congratulate you on getting funding for your tech startup, Finery! Can you share a bit about what the Finery app does?
Brooklyn Decker: When you think about what iTunes did for music - before iTunes you had tons of CDs in your car or in your house in a CD rack - iTunes took it all completely digital. We are doing that for your wardrobe. Everything is automated these days. Your banking is on your phone, your music is on your phone, your correspondence, everything. The one thing that’s still antiquated is your interaction with your wardrobe. Women will spend two hours a week figuring out what to wear. It’s not because we necessarily love clothes, or because we are fashion loving women, it’s because we need to get dressed. We felt there had to be a better way, and women can spend those two hours doing something more productive. We call ourselves your Wardrobe Operating System.
Allison Kugel: What is a day in the life of Brooklyn Decker? You’ve got the TV show, the Finery app, the two small kids and the husband. How does it all break down day-to-day?
Brooklyn Decker: That’s something I’m still navigating. Fortunately, we have been on hiatus for the show for the last couple of months. When we were thinking about baby #2 we wanted to plan it around Grace and Frankie, so I didn’t have to come back to work right away. Our baby was born at the end of November, and we did our fundraising for this seed round for Finery starting in July and August. It all worked out that I wrapped the show, we did the [fund]raise, and then I was off four weeks before the baby was born, which was good because my doctor told me I couldn’t travel 30 days before my due date. We literally flew from San Francisco and I landed back in Austin (Decker and Roddick’s home city) at midnight, exactly 30 days before my due date (laughs). We had the baby, and now I’m back to work promoting Grace and Frankie and Finery.
Allison Kugel: You’re making me tired! I need a nap now (laughs).
Brooklyn Decker: And I’m not finished! Finery is based in New York, I’m based in Austin and for Grace and Frankie I work on the west coast. Yesterday I had conference calls for Finery, I was getting ready to fly to LA to do all Grace and Frankie press. Tomorrow I’ll fly back to Austin and I’ll be with my family. Our Finery CEO is coming into Austin for meetings. It’s a juggling act, but I have a husband who is retired and who is wonderful. He is around and present with our kids, which is amazing; and I have a nanny. My family couldn’t afford a nanny when we were growing up, but we had neighbors. I’m lucky to have people around me who help, and I swear, it takes a village!
Season 4 of Grace and Frankie is now streaming on Netflix. Learn more about Finery.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
Dr. Drew Pinsky’s long running call-in show Loveline, with Adam Carolla, aired on MTV for 32 years and pioneered a pop culture adaptation of relationship and safe sex education. The show, featuring an assortment of celebrity guest hosts, served as a lifeline to multiple generations. Dr. Drew’s Teen Mom franchise, also an MTV staple, opened the eyes of television viewers to the trials of teen pregnancy and teen parenthood where previous methods had fallen short. Dr. Drew’s critically acclaimed VH1 docu-series Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew and it spinoffs Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew and Sober House, allowed viewers an intimate look inside the causes of addiction and the arduous road to addiction recovery.
With his HLN show, Dr. Drew On Call, which aired from 2011 to 2016, he broadened his television audience, delving into the behavioral components behind the headlines of the day. Dr. Drew’s New York Times bestselling book, The Mirror Effect: How Celebrity Narcissism is Seducing America (Harper Collins), examines the widespread adoption of celebrity narcissism within our culture.
A true advocate who has spent decades bringing once-taboo health matters to the forefront of public discussion, he now hosts MTV’s Teen Mom OG, KABC’s Dr. Drew Midday Live and The Dr. Drew Podcast, the #1 health podcast on iTunes.
A health crisis that is gripping our nation is that of adolescent mental health and gun violence. This generation is dealing with a problem that goes far beyond typical teenage angst, as it deals with the frightening fallout from a broken healthcare system and gun control laws that have failed to address our societal landscape. These issues intersect at the corner of one of our biggest political and social quagmires. Unfortunately, gun violence is nothing new to young people from America’s poorer urban pockets who have been living under its threat for decades. Gun-related injuries and fatalities in school settings date back to the 18th century, with the first American school shooting on record taking place on July 26, 1764 in the town of Greencastle, Pennsylvania.
The epidemic of mass shootings in more affluent suburban enclaves entered the public’s consciousness on April 20, 1999 in Littleton, Colorado, at Columbine High School. The most recent school shooting that took place on February 14, 2018 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, has left an encouraging and unstoppable movement in its wake, reminiscent of the social and political mobilization of the 1960s and 1970s.
The courage, clarity, and strength the students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas have demonstrated in the face of unspeakable tragedy, and their ability to mobilize a nation, inspired me to sit down with Dr. Drew Pinsky for a frank discussion about the state of adolescent mental health and its intersection with gun violence in America.
Allison Kugel: Why are school shootings a recent phenomenon over the last 19/20 years?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: There’s a multiplicity of factors and no simple answer. Obviously, it’s guns and the type of guns. But in addition, it’s the access that people have; people who have a proclivity towards self-harm or harming others (The Florida state Senate just passed a bill upping the legal age to purchase a fire arm from 18 to 21 and mandating a 3-day waiting period. It now falls on Florida state Congress to vote). We all know that adolescent males will complete suicide because of their use of fire arms. It’s not a far reach from feeling that your own life doesn’t have meaning to other people’s lives not having meaning. We’ve connected that bridge now.
Allison Kugel: What leads a young man to get to the point where they no longer value their own life?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: Within adolescent depression it becomes a special case when they have this sort of magical thinking that this will solve their problems, and they’ll be around to see the solution after they’re gone. But we’re seeing this in young adults, not just adolescents. I happen to believe, and this is one man’s opinion and it’s hard to substantiate the data, but we’ve been through an epidemic staring in the 1960s of adverse childhood experience. Our families are unhealthy. My work in media has been almost exclusively dealing with people with addiction issues and addiction medicine; people with issues of physical abuse, sexual abuse and neglect in their childhood. These are profound injuries. Among those injured are people who don’t have the ability to regulate their emotions or really have any sense of empathy for others. We have a growing population of people who have difficulty with empathy and difficulty with emotional regulation… and a firearm. It’s a pretty potent combination. And we have drugs and alcohol; we have a massive problem with that. I’ve begun to think of it all as sort of this spiritual bankruptcy.
Allison Kugel: When I am speaking with a physician, like yourself, I always wonder how you feel about the intangible factors, like a spiritual component.
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I am always challenged by my patients in that regard. They will tell me that their recovery from drug and alcohol addiction, that I turned them towards it, but really it’s the spiritual connection they make that actually leads them into a full recovery. I’m okay with that. Whatever gets them there! I think there can be a stigma with words like “soul” or “spiritual” because people tend to equate them with religion. But I think [spiritual] is a word people can understand without indoctrinating religion into it. Whatever it is, we need to feed our souls and feed our spiritual life in a much better way. It starts with our families and our relationships, and our communities.
Allison Kugel: Do you think social media and being tied into this Matrix-like existence instead of being more community oriented like in generations past, do you feel it’s leading to a spiritual breakdown?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I think it has accelerated the mob, and mob-like behavior. It gives people a sense of pseudo-intimacy, which is quasi-pathological. It’s not real. There is a sense of connection, with no real connection. It gratifies only the most basest of emotions – envy, aggression, arousal, and all of these addictive emotions. It doesn’t do anything for empathy, nurturing, service, making a difference. I don’t see it as the cause, but as an amplifier of these problems. When I wrote my book about narcissism years ago (The Mirror Effect/Harper Collins), I wanted to include a chapter on previous moments in history where narcissism had prevailed and where childhood trauma has been prevalent. Wherever I found those trends, I found mob action, guillotines and mob aggression. We’re seeing it now, and it just happens to be in social media.
Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts about how media chooses to cover these mass shootings and other large scale violent crimes?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: There’s contagion, not doubt about it. There’s contagion with things like suicide, all sorts of violent acts, and with pathological behaviors like cutting. All these things have contagion associated with them. I almost feel like it’s a double-edged sword. Yes, there’s contagion, but we also have to take a good hard look at the realities we face.
Allison Kugel: And when you say “contagion” you’re talking about the copy-cat effect, just to clarify for people. Personally, I feel that releasing the person’s picture and their name, and analyzing their motives is playing into their pathological desire to gain attention for their act.
Dr. Drew Pinsky: There’s no doubt that the thinking of the perpetrator includes things like that, but not saying their name also gives it a kind of energy that I think is weird. I’d like to see the evidence that holding back the name somehow reduces the contagion effect. I just don’t see it.
Allison Kugel: Let’s talk about you. When you were in high school and college, what coping skills did you cultivate to deal with things like anxiety, depression, stress and peer pressure?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I had a problem with that. I had panic attacks. I’m still formally diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I was depressed when I was nineteen and there were no services for adolescents at that time. I think that’s what got me interested in helping that population with mental health, in general. I was so mishandled, it was egregious. I thought maybe I was having a seizure when I was having a panic attack; I wasn’t sure what it was. But I understood there was a mental health issue. I went for help and I was told that I needed to get my act together, and I should take long walks in the woods. I would have happily gotten my act together (laughs)! And I was socially awkward, I was living in New England in college and didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. What got me out of that was finding purpose. Finding medicine and science, getting turned on by that and getting into it, and feeling good about what I was doing. That’s what helped me climb out. And I had therapy, though the therapy I had in college wasn’t very good
Allison Kugel: In the late seventies, wasn’t the field of mental health first really understanding what anxiety was, and first beginning to treat it?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: They knew what anxiety was. They didn’t really understand the developmental phenomenology and psychiatry of adolescents. That was poorly understood, and certainly what to do with it was even more poorly understood. My wife and I have triplets, and we’ve used mental health services all the way through in raising our family, every step of the way, and it’s yielded dividends. We used behavioral therapists when our kids were very young, and it’s always yielded results and been positive for us.
Allison Kugel: What kind of support system did you have around you in those early years?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I had very limited support. I was connected, but not intimately connected, and I didn’t understand really what I was feeling, I didn’t have that insight. I remember reading a lot of material that really didn’t help. There was nowhere to turn at that time, and I’m angry about it to this day. But again, it’s what made me interested in mental health, and in adolescent mental health.
Allison Kugel: Is that why you’ve cultivated this public platform? As Dr. Drew, you are very much looked up to by young people as a valuable source of information.
Dr. Drew Pinsky: It was actually more of a fortunate accident in my life. I’d always been interested in public speaking, and in my fourth year of medical school somebody asked me to give some commentary on a radio show. When I went in there I had this very powerful instinct that this was important. No one was talking to people about AIDS and safe sex. The term “safe sex” hadn’t been invented yet. I couldn’t believe the lack of knowledge out there, and the lack of willingness to talk to adolescents. What I said at the time was that the whole sexual revolution had been perpetrated by adults without ever really thinking about what it was going to do to adolescents. I was twenty-four years old and I thought, “I know what seventeen and eighteen-year olds are up to, and they need to know about HIV and AIDS.” It wasn’t even HIV yet. They had just started calling it AIDS at the time. I was dealing with it in my [medical] training every day. People forget about that period of history. It motivated me to get out there and talk about it.
Allison Kugel: How did you parlay this into Loveline for MTV?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I was doing [radio] once a week. It was a great social outlet for me and it was late at night on a Sunday, so I could fit it into my schedule. I did that for ten years for free. I looked at it like I was doing community service. The week my wife got pregnant with triplets was the week that the radio powers-that-be decided they wanted to put the radio show on five nights a week. To which my wife said, “No more community service. If you’re not changing diapers, you’re getting paid!” I walked into the radio station hat-in-hand and asked for a job. It kept going from there and then these television guys showed up and we ended up doing Loveline on MTV. We would film six shows a week on Friday and Saturday, and the rest of the week I practiced medicine. I was a severe workaholic in those days. It really wasn’t until 2010 when I was doing HLN’s Dr. Drew On Call that I felt it was okay to officially say I’m on to my second career. That’s when I started dialing down my clinical material and started really focusing on creating media.
Allison Kugel: What kind of impact do you feel you’ve had on young people?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I hope I make them think. I’ve broadened the scope of who I want to influence. I’m not just trying to influence young people. I would like to influence all different age groups. Ultimately, particularly with young people, I’ve noticed that the most efficient way to affect their behavior is to give them a relatable source. If you remember, Loveline was about taking phone calls and then we would analyze the cases. With Teen Mom, it’s about looking at the consequences of teen pregnancy. When they approached me about Teen Mom, I knew it would have a positive effect on teen pregnancy; I just knew it. And lo and behold, there is ample research now to show that it did (according to the CDC, teenage births have steadily declined, across all ethnicities, over the last ten years). For young people, I always like looking at the behavior, and then saying, “Here’s how to analyze that, here’s what this means.”
Allison Kugel: I think you should do another television show for that same demographic, focusing on the importance of overall mental health.
Dr. Drew Pinsky: Well that’s what Teen Mom is. Teen pregnancy is a symptom of a mental health problem. Other people look at it as a social issue. I look at it as a symptom of somebody who has some mental health issues. And you can see, as these women grow up, there are significant issues there. But television is a strange beast. You can’t be overtly didactic. It has to be hidden in the story.
Allison Kugel: Like you, I live with anxiety and panic disorder. I’ve always had to be pro-active about my mental health, like the way other people go to the gym to stay in shape. My concern is that the importance of staying on top of your mental health needs to be communicated to young people, in mass.
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I certainly try. On HLN, almost every night I would chant, “Why do we treat medical conditions above the neck differently than medical conditions below the neck?” In other words, why are brain disorders special? Brain disorders are the same as pancreas disorders. It just happens to affect an organ that is associated with our concept of behavior. Just like you would treat your heart or your pancreas or your lungs, it’s medical matter. And treatment works. People need to stop associating it with stigma, or a moral failing, or as any different than any other medical issue. You and I also know it’s brushing past a larger issue, which we would call “spiritual.” It ties into mental health, and I feel that is a bigger social, psychological problem affecting our society. At its core, it’s about our relationships.
Allison Kugel: We’re seeing a disturbing trend of young males and gun violence. What are we missing when it comes to male adolescent mental health?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: Adolescent males, when they have spiritual and psychological problems, become aggressive. And when they don’t have some sort of outlet that they are engaged in, any time there’s social unrest, there’s young males. That’s just the way we’re wired. Males need to be challenged. This sort of co-dependent helicopter parenting over the last twenty years has been about preventing children from experiencing discomfort. I think there is a major deficiency right now. In addition to our spiritual emptiness, we have lost the ability to tolerate ordinary misery. Ordinary misery is good. And our children need to experience ordinary misery to learn how to regulate their emotions and overcome. Unless we are challenged we feel deficient. Because of our narcissism as parents we can’t tolerate seeing the child’s discomfort and disappointment, because it mobilizes our own internal misery, which we avoid. We use drugs and alcohol, and extreme sports, and all kinds of ways of avoiding. But when we include our children in making sure they don’t have those feelings as well, there’s a problem. I think that in some way, it is affecting the young male. It’s probably experienced differently from the young female.
Allison Kugel: Yes, females internalize emotions.
Dr. Drew Pinsky: Women go in, men go out.
Allison Kugel: I’m going to throw a scenario at you, and tell me what you think could be a viable solution: A single parent home with limited financial resources, and an under-supervised child who’s beginning to show signs of deteriorating mental health…
Dr. Drew Pinsky: I feel unworthy of the question you’re asking me, except to say, like we’ve been discussing, make sure there is access to mental health services and that there is no stigma associated with that. But there are other solutions which goes under the heading of Mutual Aid, whether it’s a church or a community. I’m thinking about that book, Bowling Alone (Simon & Schuster). Have you read that book? It’s about the decline of club membership in the United States. I think we’re all bowling alone (laughs). And you can’t do it; you can’t do it by yourself! But you also can’t do it with perfunctory supervision. There has to be real, intimate contact and I’m not sure we know how to do that. That’s why where there are resources out there, we need to deploy it and amplify it, and build community around it. Many people are not good at it and don’t even tolerate closeness anymore, mostly because many people have been neglected or abused. When you’ve been hurt as a result of close relation, guess what you want to avoid in the future. We must overcome that.
Allison Kugel: What are your thoughts on the students from Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School and the #NeverAgain movement?
Dr. Drew Pinsky: Like the rest of us, I am so impressed with their poise, and their willingness to make change. They’re taking action. They’re being vulnerable and present. It’s inspirational. What I see gives me great hope.
Visit http://drdrew.com/get-help/ for assistance in finding mental health support services. For help with anxiety and depression, visit https://adaa.org/finding-help/treatment. Tune in to The Dr. Drew Podcast and Dr. Drew Midday Live.
Allison Kugel is a syndicated entertainment and pop culture journalist, and author of the book, Journaling Fame: A memoir of a life unhinged and on the record. Follow her on Instagram @theallisonkugel.
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